the Book of Mormon

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

It is great fiction and not bad reading. It's a very long story though that begins in Jerusalem and ends in South America. The ending is sad because one guy ends up surviving the fall of his civilization sort of along the lines of the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem, which it mimics, or Aeneas at the fall of Troy, who then fled with his family to found Rome.

San Tomas Aquinas' "First Cause" proof of God in somewhere in it around the middle, so whoever composed it was familiar with San Tomas Aquinas (1225 - 1275 AD) and thus also familiar with Catholic philosophy, not Protestantism.

So we know the author was Catholic, with some military training, and familiar with the Old Testament in King James English (1528 - 1542 AD).

I have spoken with several former Mormons and it puzzles them who might have wrote it. Most of them say it was one of the early leaders of the Mormon church, however whoever he was he did not take credit.

Would I read it again? No. Any story that you have read once, especially fiction, is not really worth reading again.

More relevant fiction for our own times is "One Second After" by Forstchen.

 

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

Long and boring ... that challenge.

 

[Moonglow]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

I've never really like reading Science Fiction..

 

[yiostheoy]

The Lord knew that many would say they have a bible and need no other. To this the Lord spoke through prophets to the people in the Book of Mormon the following:

2 Nephi 29
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

Most people (other than Catholics) have no idea that the Catholic Bible is longer than the Protestant Bibles.

The Mormons use the Protestant Bible and more specifically the KJV version because of their ties to Freemasonry in Illinois. The Freemasons largely use KJV verses in their rituals.

The Mormons have plagiarized a number of Freemason rituals, like the handshakes, the signs, the layout of a Masonic temple for the Mormon temples.

The first and second handshakes are identical for both.

The fourth handshake of the Mormons is similar to the Grip Of The Lions Paw by the Freemasons only just slightly varied.

The Mormon signs are all slightly different from the Freemasons. The Mormons use a sloppy Grand Hailing Sign whereas the Freemasons square theirs.

I brought a former Mormon friend to see the inside of one of our Masonic temples and he and I then compared notes on both.

So a lot of this stuff that the Mormons use came from the Freemasons. They don't have any idea about this. They think it came from Heaven above. Well if Freemasonry came from Heaven above then the Mormon signs and handshakes did too, but via Freemasonry.

We don't know where Freemasonry came from. We know it existed in full by 1700 AD in London, Scotland, France, and Germany.

We suspect it was organized sometime around the Crusades in 1095 AD in conjunction with organizing the knights of France and Germany to go to Jerusalem and fight against the Saracens.

When the French king drove the Knights Templar out of France, they fled to form Switzerland (same flag as the Knights Templar only with colors inverted), and to Scotland. This is apparently when the KJV bible was adopted by the Freemasons and how.

 

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

I've never really like reading Science Fiction..

There is no science in their fiction.

Sailing ships around 600 BC were barely able to ply the Mediterranean and coastal Spain. They were longboats called galleys used by the Greeks and later the Vikings.

There is no way one of these 7th Century BC boats could ply the Atlantic, Indian, or Pacific Ocean(s) and make it all the way to South America. So the boat trip is out of the question.

Even Columbus with his Spanish caravels needed 3 ships to carry enough supplies to get his crews all the way to the Caribbean from Spain. 3 not 1. You need to bring fresh water, salted meats, dried fruits, dried bread called hardtack, etc. You need 3 ships at a minimum, not 1.

The writer of the Bk. of Morm. did not know jack sh!t about sailing or sea travel.

 

[BreezeWood]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

.

the challenge most likely as with the 4th century bible would be to put it down before the damage becomes a cancer.

 

[Eloy]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Oh, I did not say that the LDS in Utah lived by the precepts of Mosiah 3 and 4. I just pointed out the reading inspires goodness in the soul.

It must be nice to have a soul.

 

[Moonglow]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Oh, I did not say that the LDS in Utah lived by the precepts of Mosiah 3 and 4. I just pointed out the reading inspires goodness in the soul.

It must be nice to have a soul.

It helps when you need to walk many miles on a dirt road..

 

[yiostheoy]

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.


Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

None of these could have written it themselves.

There was not enough brain power in them.

But they could have agreed to say they saw golden or bronze plates.

 

[yiostheoy]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Oh, I did not say that the LDS in Utah lived by the precepts of Mosiah 3 and 4. I just pointed out the reading inspires goodness in the soul.

It must be nice to have a soul.

It helps when you need to walk many miles on a dirt road..

Why would I walk down a dirt road when I can ride my mountain bike instead ???

 

[Luddly Neddite]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

Long and boring ... that challenge.

When I lived in Tucson, I was harassed by morms. Never mind how crazy they are or the dirty crap they pulled. They left piles of their tracts and videos and their book of morm. I did read some of it. Its as stupid and senseless and just blathering nonsense at the christian bible. Just like christians, morms are vicious nasty people who really want only one thing - your money.

 

[yiostheoy]

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Two of these 3 had the education to write the book himself.

Cowdery was a school teacher.

Whitmer was a lawyer.

Another name that a former Mormon friend mentioned to me could have been the author was Sidney Rigdon, a Protestant minister.

I suppose he is the most likely author:

Sidney Rigdon - Wikipedia

 

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

Long and boring ... that challenge.

When I lived in Tucson, I was harassed by morms. Never mind how crazy they are or the dirty crap they pulled. They left piles of their tracts and videos and their book of morm. I did read some of it. Its as stupid and senseless and just blathering nonsense at the christian bible. Just like christians, morms are vicious nasty people who really want only one thing - your money.

I like to be courteous to them as with the JW's and the Holy Rollers. I have even had Baptist Protestant missionaries knock on my door.

I always let them in and sit them down.

Then I let them talk, but I use a little hourglass egg timer to cut them off with.

They get to talk for 2 1/2 mins, then it is my turn to reply for 2 1/2 mins. And so forth. This way I can keep them under control.

They get to give me a dose of Mormon Doctrine, and I get to give them a dose of Catholic Doctrine in return.

Pretty soon they give up on me. But they are always friendly on the street.

 

[ding]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

Long and boring ... that challenge.

When I lived in Tucson, I was harassed by morms. Never mind how crazy they are or the dirty crap they pulled. They left piles of their tracts and videos and their book of morm. I did read some of it. Its as stupid and senseless and just blathering nonsense at the christian bible. Just like christians, morms are vicious nasty people who really want only one thing - your money.

I like to be courteous to them as with the JW's and the Holy Rollers. I have even had Baptist Protestant missionaries knock on my door.

I always let them in and sit them down.

Then I let them talk, but I use a little hourglass egg timer to cut them off with.

They get to talk for 2 1/2 mins, then it is my turn to reply for 2 1/2 mins. And so forth. This way I can keep them under control.

They get to give me a dose of Mormon Doctrine, and I get to give them a good dose of Catholic Doctrine.

Pretty soon they give up on me. But they are always friendly on the street.

I do too, but I don't use an egg timer. That seems a bit much. We just have a friendly discussion on scripture. I think they enjoy the experience because they always leave with a smile on their faces and they never pressure me to change my faith. It is more important to be a good host.

 

[yiostheoy]

Why don't you just use the real Bible?

what are you all, some sort of Cult like muslims?
Also with extra wives encouraged? allowed?

Remember....Billy Graham declared Mormons to be ok, to be fellow christians......just before the 2012 election......

Pope John said the same thing of all major religions back in 1962 with "Vatican 2".

This was a phenomenal concession to non-Catholics at the time since one of the fundamental principles of the Catholic Church is Catholic Baptism together with all the 7 Sacraments --

- baptism

- confirmation

- confession

- communion

- marriage

- ordination

- last rites

Sacraments of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

 

[tyroneweaver]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

Ya, My favorite part is where Brigham Young wrestled with the bear, and fell out of the SL Temple window into the Great Salt Lake.
Had a moral to it. Just like the Bible.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

Long and boring ... that challenge.

Is it possible for you to shut up...just once ?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

I read the forward. That by itself proves it's a work of fiction.

It's a load of dingos' kidneys.....Joseph Smith was a con man working in an era of con men.

Who was Joseph Smith ?

I thought this thread was about the book of mormon.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

You want us to read a book...

And then take a challenge ?

What is the challenge ?

Serious question.

 

[tyroneweaver]

The Lord knew that many would say they have a bible and need no other. To this the Lord spoke through prophets to the people in the Book of Mormon the following:

2 Nephi 29
1 But behold, there shall be many—at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel;
2 And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto thy father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel;
3 And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?
5 O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?
7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.

Most people (other than Catholics) have no idea that the Catholic Bible is longer than the Protestant Bibles.

The Mormons use the Protestant Bible and more specifically the KJV version because of their ties to Freemasonry in Illinois. The Freemasons largely use KJV verses in their rituals.

The Mormons have plagiarized a number of Freemason rituals, like the handshakes, the signs, the layout of a Masonic temple for the Mormon temples.

The first and second handshakes are identical for both.

The fourth handshake of the Mormons is similar to the Grip Of The Lions Paw by the Freemasons only just slightly varied.

The Mormon signs are all slightly different from the Freemasons. The Mormons use a sloppy Grand Hailing Sign whereas the Freemasons square theirs.

I brought a former Mormon friend to see the inside of one of our Masonic temples and he and I then compared notes on both.

So a lot of this stuff that the Mormons use came from the Freemasons. They don't have any idea about this. They think it came from Heaven above. Well if Freemasonry came from Heaven above then the Mormon signs and handshakes did too, but via Freemasonry.

We don't know where Freemasonry came from. We know it existed in full by 1700 AD in London, Scotland, France, and Germany.

We suspect it was organized sometime around the Crusades in 1095 AD in conjunction with organizing the knights of France and Germany to go to Jerusalem and fight against the Saracens.

When the French king drove the Knights Templar out of France, they fled to form Switzerland (same flag as the Knights Templar only with colors inverted), and to Scotland. This is apparently when the KJV bible was adopted by the Freemasons and how.

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

I've never really like reading Science Fiction..

There is no science in their fiction.

Sailing ships around 600 BC were barely able to ply the Mediterranean and coastal Spain. They were longboats called galleys used by the Greeks and later the Vikings.

There is no way one of these 7th Century BC boats could ply the Atlantic, Indian, or Pacific Ocean(s) and make it all the way to South America. So the boat trip is out of the question.

Even Columbus with his Spanish caravels needed 3 ships to carry enough supplies to get his crews all the way to the Caribbean from Spain. 3 not 1. You need to bring fresh water, salted meats, dried fruits, dried bread called hardtack, etc. You need 3 ships at a minimum, not 1.

The writer of the Bk. of Morm. did not know jack sh!t about sailing or sea travel.

Archaeology shows the civilizations originated in the south and worked north ward.