The China Game

[Sundance508]

Don't believe for a moment the new "threat" from N. Korea isn't by China design. Whenever China has expansion plans, or feels their trading advantages are threatened, their pitbull Kim starts snarling at the U.S. We in turn, ramp up the rhetoric, send an armada into the Sea of Japan, while China begs us to show patience and suggests "talks" to delay any action until the next wave of crazy comes from the ME. N.Korea fades in importance as our attention is again diverted and China's goon quiets down. China's head-fake works over and over again. This time they blocked a coal shipment or two and didn't block a UN resolution, but little else. It's how they've operated for years and we've fallen for it time after time. Neither Xi Jinping or President Trump want an all-out war on the Korean Peninsula. We'd win it but S. Korea would get mauled in the process and China would be faced with an America-controlled unified Korea on it's border.

I've advocated for pulling U.S. forces out of Korea to remove one of China's trump cards. With that accomplished, we don't have to consider losing several thousand GIs in a N.Korea attack on the south. But it tips off everybody concerned that we're about to end the stalemate. So what about Seoul? N. Korean artillery can hammer the S.Korean capital pretty much un-checked for 4 or 5 days until we take it out those batteries. Then we'd cripple their command and control, and own the airspace over N. Korea. And then China would feel threatened and we'd have another Korean war with the Chi-Coms. The whole scenario is a thorn bush....no matter which way you turn you get stabbed. Is there a simple answer? Yes.

Locate with certainty the location of Kim Jong-un in a given window of opportunity and send him a gift basket. MOAB. And then it's only China's problem.

Good analysis but whilst I think we should take out Kim but not only him....we need to take out all the top leadership if we are going to get a regime change...just taking out Kim would not be nearly enough and in fact whoever replaces him might even be worse.

Most have no idea of just how serious this crisis with N.Korea and China is...we only have two choices really --surrender to allowing N. Korea to keep building their Nuclear arsenal and obtain ICBM's that will be able to bring their nukes reigning down upon us or make up our minds to go to war with N. Korea and China...because I think it a certainty China would not stand idly by...they even struck back us in the First Korean war and we had nukes and they did not.

 

[Sundance508]

You work on the delusion that Kim himself is the problem. They'd just put another one of his relatives on the throne and that would be it.

The big problem with North Korea is that if it collapsed economically, it would send millions of refugees pouring into S. Korea and China, and nobody wants that.

The problem is Jina itself. They use KimBongWong as a military wedge in its economic expansion in markets and the S.China Sea. They want to wedge into our trading alliances, and destabilize any notion that we alone protect the world from another global conflict. NK is not going to nuke LA, because everyone knows our only possible response would be to inflict a nuclear holocaust on NK. A deterrent isn't a deterrent if you're afraid to inflict exponentially greater damage than is inflicted upon you. Jina certainly doesn't want that. Nor do they want their Asian trading partners to see them as the instigator of a war.

The problem is that for Trump (or Obama or W or Slick) to actually do anything about it, we'd have to have cripple all the US companies that mftr shit in China to sell here. Well, maybe Slick could have pulled off a conventional attack that would have led to SK instilling a more or less compliant puppet.

Very poor analysis.....First whilst China of course does not want a bunch of Korean refugees--- that factor (very small factor)will have no influnce on their policy...they could deal with that easily enough...you must remember they do not have the same value on life that we do.

We really have no idea what Kim might do...again....you cannot apply western logic to a eastern maniac/dictator/sociopath etc. Even if kim is sane western logic does not equate with Eastern Logic. To believe that it does is to engage in self delusion....a sure receipe for disaster.

N. Korea has no need to worry about their trading partners which consists mainly of China.

The only way to confront this Crisis is to convince China that we are willing to go to war ...preferably with N. Korea alone but China must understand that we will come down on them with everything we have if they get involved in a war between us and N. Korea....i think we will have great difficulty making them believe that...they see us as a paper tiger and always have with good reason.

 

[Sundance508]

Like I've said before, we need to cut a deal with China. Have China take NK leadership out and denuclearize it. They decapitate the leadership during a faux internal coup, send in troops to "stabilize" the country and later artfully and effectively annex it. This stabilizes their border and pacifies the region.

They're not interested ZZ.....NK is very useful to them as a diversion. Short of an attack on Kimchi, or even along with it, we need to strangle China financially......close down their trade with us completely....they're so overextended on credit they'd collapse inside a year.

Unfortunately, I am not nearly so optismistic....I think China holds all the aces...and they are not about to help us as Trump is finding out....I think Trump realized that awhile back...what Trump is now engaged in is a effort to demonstrate he is doing his best to solve this crisis in a peaceful manner...that when he finally orders the attack...he wants everyone to understand he tried everything possible to resolve this problem peacefully.

 

[Richard-H]

The only thing we need to figure out is how to quickly destroy the N. Korean positions just to the north of Seoul. If we can do that the stalemate is over.

 

[Sundance508]

You work on the delusion that Kim himself is the problem. They'd just put another one of his relatives on the throne and that would be it.

The big problem with North Korea is that if it collapsed economically, it would send millions of refugees pouring into S. Korea and China, and nobody wants that.

You are half right....getting rid of just kim would not solve the problem.

Granny says, "Dat's right...

... China playin' snooker...

... an' we gettin' snooked."

I think The Donald understand perfectly well what China is up to. He is just going through the motions of appealing to China for help with N. Korea knowing full well they will do nothing ...but he must do that to demonstrate he tried everything to end this crisis in a peaceful manner.

 

[Sundance508]

He doesn't have any more relatives, dumbass....he's murdered them all. And N.Korea has no economy. And S.Korea is under no obligation to take in any N.Korean refugees...they'd head into China...all the better for China screwing around with us for so long on N.Korea.

Actually, he has quite a few relatives, icnluding a sister who is very prominent in his regime.

Nobody is going to turn away millions of starving people.

Anybody who thinks a potential refugee problem is the center point of this crisis with N. Korea is whistling in the wind.

 

[g5000]

The big problem with North Korea is that if it collapsed economically, it would send millions of refugees pouring into S. Korea and China, and nobody wants that.

They said the same thing about what would happen if the Soviet Union collapsed, and everything worked out for the best for those beleaguered people when it did.

 

[ZZ PUPPS]

Like I've said before, we need to cut a deal with China. Have China take NK leadership out and denuclearize it. They decapitate the leadership during a faux internal coup, send in troops to "stabilize" the country and later artfully and effectively annex it. This stabilizes their border and pacifies the region.

They're not interested ZZ.....NK is very useful to them as a diversion. Short of an attack on Kimchi, or even along with it, we need to strangle China financially......close down their trade with us completely....they're so overextended on credit they'd collapse inside a year.

Unfortunately, I am not nearly so optismistic....I think China holds all the aces...and they are not about to help us as Trump is finding out....I think Trump realized that awhile back...what Trump is now engaged in is a effort to demonstrate he is doing his best to solve this crisis in a peaceful manner...that when he finally orders the attack...he wants everyone to understand he tried everything possible to resolve this problem peacefully.

The Chinese have to be presented with a lesser of 2 evils ultimatum. NK's nukes are going to be taken out - period. Either you decapitate NK and annex it or we take them out with tactical nukes. Just like Truman told the Japs - it took 2 nukes but 2 glow in the dark cities made believers of them in short order.

 

[g5000]

We lived under the threat of total human extinction by the Soviet and Chinese threat for decades. It's not that big a deal if some puny country joins the club.

We are in more danger from being nuked by Putin than by the fat little boy in the DPRK.

 

[Sundance508]

The only thing we need to figure out is how to quickly destroy the N. Korean positions just to the north of Seoul. If we can do that the stalemate is over.

You are correct...we must launch a pre-emptive strike of such magnitude they would not be able to respond in any manner, shape or form...we should use tactical nuclear weapons..the so called neutron bombs ...we must remember especially that China is very close by....actually our first consideration must be to thoroughly understand that very likely China will jump into the fight...are we willing to fight China?

As much as I like The Donald....i do not think he nor anyone else in this administration is willing to instigate a war with China which an attack on N. Korea surely would....thus we are going to be forced to accept the fact we must live with a N. Korea that has nuclear weapons and the ability to deliver them smack down on top of us....after all ...we allowed China to go Nuclear, we are allowing Iran to go nuclear.....thus the chickens have come home to roost....America will be in a very precarious position until our final demise and we are relegated to the dustbin of history....that is the tragic future I see for America...The Donald could prove me wrong....I wish he would.


Key Issues: Nuclear Weapons: The Basics: The Neutron Bomb

 

[Sundance508]

We lived under the threat of total human extinction by the Soviet and Chinese threat for decades. It's not that big a deal if some puny country joins the club.

We are in more danger from being nuked by Putin than by the fat little boy in the DPRK.

Westerner's have extreme difficulty in understanding the oriental mind.....the first thing to remember is that they do not value lives as we do...that is just for starters.

But I do think you are very likely correct in that we will just have to live with a N. Korea that will have the capability to launch nuclear weapons via ICMB's...perhaps even before this year is over.....our leadership will very likely rationalize that painful reality by hoping we will be able to deploy missles to shoot down their missles....that is probably the best we can hope for. We dropped the ball long ago with N. Korea when we did not let MacArthur subdue China, when we did not go along with Russia when they wanted us to help destroy China's nuclear program before they got nukes and even before that when Truman let China go communistic and on and on and on...a long history of failure to do what was needed in regards to China, Russia as well as N. Korea. A N. Korea that will be able to engage in Nuclear Blackmail is the price we will have to pay for being weak and trying to appease N. Korea aka bill clinton and his miserable approach to N. Korea.

 

[g5000]

We lived under the threat of total human extinction by the Soviet and Chinese threat for decades. It's not that big a deal if some puny country joins the club.

We are in more danger from being nuked by Putin than by the fat little boy in the DPRK.

Westerner's have extreme difficulty in understanding the oriental mind.....the first thing to remember is that they do not value lives as we do...that is just for starters.

But I do think you are very likely correct in that we will just have to live with a N. Korea that will have the capability to launch nuclear weapons via ICMB's...perhaps even before this year is over.....our leadership will very likely rationalize that painful reality by hoping we will be able to deploy missles to shoot down their missles....that is probably the best we can hope for. We dropped the ball long ago with N. Korea when we did not let MacArthur subdue China, when we did not go along with Russia when they wanted us to help destroy China's nuclear program before they got nukes and even before that when Truman let China go communistic and on and on and on...a long history of failure to do what was need in regards to China, Russia as well as N. Korea. A N. Korea that will be able to engage in Nuclear Blackmail is the price we will have to pay for being weak and trying to appease N. Korea aka bill clinton and his miserable approach to N. Korea.

Did you really say "the oriental mind"?

Holy shit!

 

[Sundance508]

We lived under the threat of total human extinction by the Soviet and Chinese threat for decades. It's not that big a deal if some puny country joins the club.

We are in more danger from being nuked by Putin than by the fat little boy in the DPRK.

Westerner's have extreme difficulty in understanding the oriental mind.....the first thing to remember is that they do not value lives as we do...that is just for starters.

But I do think you are very likely correct in that we will just have to live with a N. Korea that will have the capability to launch nuclear weapons via ICMB's...perhaps even before this year is over.....our leadership will very likely rationalize that painful reality by hoping we will be able to deploy missles to shoot down their missles....that is probably the best we can hope for. We dropped the ball long ago with N. Korea when we did not let MacArthur subdue China, when we did not go along with Russia when they wanted us to help destroy China's nuclear program before they got nukes and even before that when Truman let China go communistic and on and on and on...a long history of failure to do what was need in regards to China, Russia as well as N. Korea. A N. Korea that will be able to engage in Nuclear Blackmail is the price we will have to pay for being weak and trying to appease N. Korea aka bill clinton and his miserable approach to N. Korea.

Did you really say "the oriental mind"?

Holy shit!

hehheh I do not have time for political correctness. I am old school.

 

[bendog]

We lived under the threat of total human extinction by the Soviet and Chinese threat for decades. It's not that big a deal if some puny country joins the club.

We are in more danger from being nuked by Putin than by the fat little boy in the DPRK.

And any notion that NK is ignoring Jina's requests is naïve at best.

 

[bendog]

We lived under the threat of total human extinction by the Soviet and Chinese threat for decades. It's not that big a deal if some puny country joins the club.

We are in more danger from being nuked by Putin than by the fat little boy in the DPRK.

Westerner's have extreme difficulty in understanding the oriental mind.....the first thing to remember is that they do not value lives as we do...that is just for starters.

But I do think you are very likely correct in that we will just have to live with a N. Korea that will have the capability to launch nuclear weapons via ICMB's...perhaps even before this year is over.....our leadership will very likely rationalize that painful reality by hoping we will be able to deploy missles to shoot down their missles....that is probably the best we can hope for. We dropped the ball long ago with N. Korea when we did not let MacArthur subdue China, when we did not go along with Russia when they wanted us to help destroy China's nuclear program before they got nukes and even before that when Truman let China go communistic and on and on and on...a long history of failure to do what was need in regards to China, Russia as well as N. Korea. A N. Korea that will be able to engage in Nuclear Blackmail is the price we will have to pay for being weak and trying to appease N. Korea aka bill clinton and his miserable approach to N. Korea.

Did you really say "the oriental mind"?

Holy shit!

He likes the idea of McArthur dropping 50 or so nuclear bombs on china.

 

[Sundance508]

Like I've said before, we need to cut a deal with China. Have China take NK leadership out and denuclearize it. They decapitate the leadership during a faux internal coup, send in troops to "stabilize" the country and later artfully and effectively annex it. This stabilizes their border and pacifies the region.

They're not interested ZZ.....NK is very useful to them as a diversion. Short of an attack on Kimchi, or even along with it, we need to strangle China financially......close down their trade with us completely....they're so overextended on credit they'd collapse inside a year.

Unfortunately, I am not nearly so optismistic....I think China holds all the aces...and they are not about to help us as Trump is finding out....I think Trump realized that awhile back...what Trump is now engaged in is a effort to demonstrate he is doing his best to solve this crisis in a peaceful manner...that when he finally orders the attack...he wants everyone to understand he tried everything possible to resolve this problem peacefully.

The Chinese have to be presented with a lesser of 2 evils ultimatum. NK's nukes are going to be taken out - period. Either you decapitate NK and annex it or we take them out with tactical nukes. Just like Truman told the Japs - it took 2 nukes but 2 glow in the dark cities made believers of them in short order.

Sounds simple enough ....the problem is China would not take that lying down....China has a very agressive military leadership....and they have a lot of influence on the political leadership....whilst I do not think China wants a Nuclear war they very well may be willing to fight a more conventional sort of limited war with America....it would be very difficult for us to convince them that we might drop nuclear bombs on N.Korea...I do not think anybody believes we would...I certainly do not but that is what is needed for sure.....tactical nukes and lots of them.

 

[JoeB131]

China has used NK as a pawn in their unfair trade game for decades. Basically China says allow us to continue fucking over America on trade or we won't help with NK. Every time Congress or a President looks like they are about to smack China on trade NK acts out as if by magic.

Uh, buddy, the reason why Presidents don't smack China on trade is because the 1% want that sweet, sweet cheap labor.

 

[JoeB131]

Anybody who thinks a potential refugee problem is the center point of this crisis with N. Korea is whistling in the wind.

No, north Korea having nukes isn't that big of a problem... other than we've told them they can't and they've told us to screw ourselves.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Don't believe for a moment the new "threat" from N. Korea isn't by China design. Whenever China has expansion plans, or feels their trading advantages are threatened, their pitbull Kim starts snarling at the U.S. We in turn, ramp up the rhetoric, send an armada into the Sea of Japan, while China begs us to show patience and suggests "talks" to delay any action until the next wave of crazy comes from the ME. N.Korea fades in importance as our attention is again diverted and China's goon quiets down. China's head-fake works over and over again. This time they blocked a coal shipment or two and didn't block a UN resolution, but little else. It's how they've operated for years and we've fallen for it time after time. Neither Xi Jinping or President Trump want an all-out war on the Korean Peninsula. We'd win it but S. Korea would get mauled in the process and China would be faced with an America-controlled unified Korea on it's border.

I've advocated for pulling U.S. forces out of Korea to remove one of China's trump cards. With that accomplished, we don't have to consider losing several thousand GIs in a N.Korea attack on the south. But it tips off everybody concerned that we're about to end the stalemate. So what about Seoul? N. Korean artillery can hammer the S.Korean capital pretty much un-checked for 4 or 5 days until we take it out those batteries. Then we'd cripple their command and control, and own the airspace over N. Korea. And then China would feel threatened and we'd have another Korean war with the Chi-Coms. The whole scenario is a thorn bush....no matter which way you turn you get stabbed. Is there a simple answer? Yes.

Locate with certainty the location of Kim Jong-un in a given window of opportunity and send him a gift basket. MOAB. And then it's only China's problem.

I don't think you quite understand the relationship between China and North Korea. Yes, North Korea has one ally, and that is China. China has its reasons for supporting North Korea and they mostly have to do with the US.
That doesn't mean China wants North Korea to have nukes. China wants to be able to control North Korea, but doesn't want to go so far the North Korea turns away from China.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

. You might want to look into that some time, when you aren't trying to yank food out the mouths of hungry kids to give tax breaks to billionaires.

mmmm...nuthin hits the spot like a hungry kids burger....tasty.

Not only do RWs vote to starve children, they make fun of starving children.

Anybody wanna bet that Tom Horn calls himself a "christian"?

[emoji90]


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