The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

[Sky Dancer]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

 

[DiveCon]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

 

[Sky Dancer]

Foxfyre--

Is it your positon that the religion of Islam is inherently intolerant?

Yes Sky. It is absolutely my position that the religion of Islam is inherently intolerant which I've have taken quite some pains to illustrate with postings from both the Qu'ran and the Hadith, and with quotations from advocates and critics of Islam. I can find nothing in history or the current activities of the advocates of Islam to alter my perception about that.

Again, Muslims in small numbers are usually delightful people. Add significantly to their numbers, however, and you will find they are less tolerant, and in significant strength, they are historically quite intolerant. That does not prevent me from appreciating and enjoying my Muslim friends and neighbors in the least, however.

I am giving our friend, Kalam, here every opportunity to change my perception. So far he has mostly reinforced it.

Thank you.

 

[daveman]

It is pertinent because of the two religions, I see Christianity as the far more tolerant. You as a Muslim are welcome among Christians and will not be punished for practicing your faith or trying to 'sell' it to a Christian. In no predominantly Muslim country I know of would I, a Christian, be able to openly practice my faith.

Oman allows Christians to practice openly, with most Christian sects having churches.

I dunno about proselytizing to Muslims. On the whole, Oman is very western-friendly. Shoot, the Sultan is gay! Oman's been a good ally in the war on terror.

I don't know anything about Oman except that the international directory says there are fewer than 3 million residents and that 100% of those are Muslim. It does say that other relgiions are allowed to practice but would that be true if there WERE other religions represented there in any numbers at all? We don't know. But for now, score one for Oman that it is tolerant of other religions.

I expect the vast majority of Christians are ex-pats from other nations.

Also, in my travels, in Bahrain, I met a Christian couple from Egypt who own a shop ( FG Lighthouse Bahrain -- the FG stands for "Father God" ). They said that while persecution is illegal in Egypt, there was plenty of it going on, even from government officials, who would make it difficult for Christians to do business. These folks moved to Manama, Bahrain, and were the first Christians to be granted a business license in the country.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

I traveled to India and Nepal. In some Muslim areas and I was quite unnerved by the absence of women in public. It felt oppressive. I only saw a couple and they were acccompanied by a man and in full burqa.

Our guide told us that he would not take us out in the evening unless we wore veils.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

Of all the Muslim people, though, the Iranians are my favorites. They are beautiful people, fun, fun loving, smart, sometimes brilliant. Too bad that they have such crappy fundamentalist religious and political leaders. If it were not for that, I would give a better chance to establish democracy in Iran than will ultimately be the case in Iraq.

Turkey and Indonesia are not places most Americans would find comfortable on the freedom meter, but they've both achieved a more democratic government than most. But they do illustrate that things can be better.

 

[daveman]

Foxfyre--

Is it your positon that the religion of Islam is inherently intolerant?

Yes Sky. It is absolutely my position that the religion of Islam is inherently intolerant which I've have taken quite some pains to illustrate with postings from both the Qu'ran and the Hadith, and with quotations from advocates and critics of Islam. I can find nothing in history or the current activities of the advocates of Islam to alter my perception about that.

Again, Muslims in small numbers are usually delightful people. Add significantly to their numbers, however, and you will find they are less tolerant, and in significant strength, they are historically quite intolerant. That does not prevent me from appreciating and enjoying my Muslim friends and neighbors in the least, however.

I am giving our friend, Kalam, here every opportunity to change my perception. So far he has mostly reinforced it.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Foxfyre again."

 

[daveman]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

Of all the Muslim people, though, the Iranians are my favorites. They are beautiful people, fun, fun loving, smart, sometimes brilliant. Too bad that they have such crappy fundamentalist religious and political leaders. If it were not for that, I would give a better chance to establish democracy in Iran than will ultimately be the case in Iraq.

Turkey and Indonesia are not places most Americans would find comfortable on the freedom meter, but they've both achieved a more democratic government than most. But they do illustrate that things can be better.

Dave's Travelogue, Chapter 3:

While we were in Oman, we met a teenage Iranian boy. He wanted more than anything in the world to go to America and be an American. He left his family in Iran to move to Oman and work, and try to get a work visa from the American Embassy. His family disowned him for wanting to be an American.

Damn good kid, too. Worked his ass off. Wanted to be an American so bad.

 

[DiveCon]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

Of all the Muslim people, though, the Iranians are my favorites. They are beautiful people, fun, fun loving, smart, sometimes brilliant. Too bad that they have such crappy fundamentalist religious and political leaders. If it were not for that, I would give a better chance to establish democracy in Iran than will ultimately be the case in Iraq.

Turkey and Indonesia are not places most Americans would find comfortable on the freedom meter, but they've both achieved a more democratic government than most. But they do illustrate that things can be better.

we can always hope the Iranian people will tire of the oppressive government they have

 

[Sky Dancer]

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

Of all the Muslim people, though, the Iranians are my favorites. They are beautiful people, fun, fun loving, smart, sometimes brilliant. Too bad that they have such crappy fundamentalist religious and political leaders. If it were not for that, I would give a better chance to establish democracy in Iran than will ultimately be the case in Iraq.

Turkey and Indonesia are not places most Americans would find comfortable on the freedom meter, but they've both achieved a more democratic government than most. But they do illustrate that things can be better.

we can always hope the Iranian people will tire of the oppressive government they have

If it were only that simple.

 

[Intense]

good, i dont think you would feel very safe there

Of all the Muslim people, though, the Iranians are my favorites. They are beautiful people, fun, fun loving, smart, sometimes brilliant. Too bad that they have such crappy fundamentalist religious and political leaders. If it were not for that, I would give a better chance to establish democracy in Iran than will ultimately be the case in Iraq.

Turkey and Indonesia are not places most Americans would find comfortable on the freedom meter, but they've both achieved a more democratic government than most. But they do illustrate that things can be better.

we can always hope the Iranian people will tire of the oppressive government they have

That's always a possibility. I had some great Iranian friends back before the hostage crisis under Carter. Living in Charlotte, N.C. at the time. About a dozen or so. they were good guy's, from various backgrounds, religious, military, city, country. Reliable and close friends. The hostage thing really cut them deep.

 

[Intense]

Looking at Judeo-Christian history, there was a time we were severe in judgement. I like to think we learned better, over time. There are so many things that were okay until we learned better.

 

[DiveCon]

Of all the Muslim people, though, the Iranians are my favorites. They are beautiful people, fun, fun loving, smart, sometimes brilliant. Too bad that they have such crappy fundamentalist religious and political leaders. If it were not for that, I would give a better chance to establish democracy in Iran than will ultimately be the case in Iraq.

Turkey and Indonesia are not places most Americans would find comfortable on the freedom meter, but they've both achieved a more democratic government than most. But they do illustrate that things can be better.

we can always hope the Iranian people will tire of the oppressive government they have

If it were only that simple.

it is that simple
it has to come from INSIDE

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Looking at Judeo-Christian history, there was a time we were severe in judgement. I like to think we learned better, over time. There are so many things that were okay until we learned better.

Ya Christians are a whole lot older then Muslims right? I seriously doubt Islam will see a reformation.

 

[Foxfyre]

Looking at Judeo-Christian history, there was a time we were severe in judgement. I like to think we learned better, over time. There are so many things that were okay until we learned better.

Ya Christians are a whole lot older then Muslims right? I seriously doubt Islam will see a reformation.

Christianity dates back to the 1st Century AD. Mohammed founded Islam in the 7th Century AD. The Christian Reformation was in the 15th Century or less than 600 years ago. So if Islam follows the same pattern Christianity did, their reformation could be coming up before long. All it would take is for enough Muslims to be tired of he violence, stagnation, oppression, corruption, and irrational policies to demand a better way. That's what finally gave the Protestants the courage to break away from the Roman Catholic Church and in the process prompted reform in the RCC as well.

There's always hope.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

So, "most" Muslims are peaceful but you don't want to go to a "mostly" Muslim country because you might get hurt. This isn't adding up.

 

[Intense]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

So, "most" Muslims are peaceful but you don't want to go to a "mostly" Muslim country because you might get hurt. This isn't adding up.

Looks like you need to spend more time in the study of Sharia Law.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

So, "most" Muslims are peaceful but you don't want to go to a "mostly" Muslim country because you might get hurt. This isn't adding up.

Ya, she defends Muslims while admitting she is afraid of them and ATTACKS Christians with wild claims the US is becoming a theocracy.

 

[topspin]

Most muslims are peacefull. But the guy getting beheaded doesn't care that the murders only makes up a percent or so.

 

[Kalam]

So you have no problem with Christians exercising what they believe to be their 'great commission' to spread the gospel throughout the Earth? Christians also believe that you cannot force Christianity onto anybody, but is a process of attracting people to know the One who is the right path so that they choose it themselves.

I'm not familiar enough with the Sunnah to answer that question authoritatively. I doubt there would be an issue with proselytization by non-Muslims among non-Muslims, but I'm not sure about attempting to convert Muslims to other faiths. Historically, this has been forbidden. I don't know whether it should be or not, so I'll try to do some research.

That's death penalty.

Ayah or hadith number, please.