The Four Pillars of Progressivism

[BuckToothMoron]

The 17th Amendment was the biggest coup d'etat for the progressive movement. Repeal it, and you may slow the inevitable advancement of liberalism and an ever bigger central government.

The 17th Amendment happened because people were tired of the corrupt buffoons that the state legislatures kept sending to washington.

We were quite capable of selecting our own corrupt buffoons.

I hear that argument all the time, and I sit and think, " how can anybody be so obtuse as to think the senate today is any less corrupt than it always was." They are politicians. Politics is corrupt, it's deal making, its compromise, it's the market place for the exchange and trade of wealth, power and influence. That does not change when the process of selecting politicians is altered. No, all that occurred is the state governments were taken out of the equation, and hence silenced. Sorry, that is a junior high argument.

 

[BuckToothMoron]

The 17th Amendment was the biggest coup d'etat for the progressive movement. Repeal it, and you may slow the inevitable advancement of liberalism and an ever bigger central government.

The 17th was "conservatism" in action. It enabled a more social and more national, central government.

That's not my brand of conservatism. Not sure which conservatives you are referring to.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Equality is the best foundation for a civilized society.

Equality of outcome or equality of opportunity?

If the former, you are not a liberal, you are a leftist. If the latter, yes, you are indeed a liberal.

Big damn difference, so I'm curious, which is it?

Equality under the law, equal opportunity. Everyone is responsible for their own outcomes. I don't know of any prominent person on the left nor have I heard any liberal support equality of outcomes. I think that is a right-wing radio thing.

Leave your right-wing labels alone. They don't apply.

I care not for labels, but I do care for accuracy and transparency.

Unless you and I have a very different definition for 'person on the left', I would argue leftists most certainly support equality of outcome. Welfare, in all it's forms, is designed to improve the outcome of chosen citizens. Equality of outcome is absolutely positively what things like affirmative action and protected classes are all about. The examples after over 100 years of progressive meddling are abundant, at local, state and federal levels, but at the end of the day, they're case for forcing wealth from some is that we should benefit others, to improve their outcome.

As one of the guys that pays the vast majority of those taxes, it sure as hell isn't improving outcome. That's government acting unequally.

Lastly, I assure you this hard core classical liberal / libertarian has PLENTY of issues with what you think of as 'right wing'.

I think welfare is designed to assist those in need. Period. The outcomes of those who receive it vary and depends on how that individual chooses to do with it and to get off it. Welfare doesn't last forever. All of this is the result of your fellow citizens enacting it through their duly elected representatives.

Affirmative action is an attempt by citizens to use the power of a duly elected government to level an uneven playing field for minorities and women who have been historically discriminated against.

Protected classes, as you call them, is an attempt by citizens through the power of laws enacted by their elected representatives to protect those who are vulnerable from those who would exploit that vulnerability. Discrimination against women, homosexuals, blacks, latinos, Jews, the handicapped is morally wrong and undermines our society.

Taxpayers all have some grievance about how their taxes are spent. Your grievance is no more valid or special than anyone else's.

 

[Votto]

that a supreme federal government...

Where does it say that?

In the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution.

You should try to read that document someday. Based on how you post here, I'm guessing you'd be shocked at what it really amounts to.

Sure maggot breath. You go with that. Meanwhile back in reality it is saying the CONSTITUTION is the supreme law of the land, not the federal government. You dumb bastard.


Article VI
All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

The federal government is the Constitution in operation.

Without the supremacy of the federal government,

any state that so chose could ban personal ownership of firearms, outright.

Is that what you want?

So you would say that states that are sanctuary cities that defy federal laws on immigration are in violation of the Constitution and should be dealt with accordingly?

Surely you are not saying that.

 

[Votto]

From near as I can tell, there are 4 pillars of Progressivism which is their foundation. All four of these pillars is an assault on the Constitution. Why? Because the Constitution is a document that attempted to create a government that is limited. In other words, those in government are viewed as not having any superior intellectual capacity or righteous character than the average citizen. Such outrageous thinking must be destroyed so that every aspect in our lives is overseen and regulated by government who are the master race. Why without Big Brother monitoring our every move, we would all be dying in the streets as we render the planet inhabitable environmentally.

1. Illegal Immigration. Illegal immigration is the first pillar. It carries with it the notion that borders are not needed. We hear many Progs today say as much. So if there are no borders, then there are no sovereign nations. If there are no sovereign nations, then the Republic becomes obsolete, along with its documents such as the Constitution. Then an all powerful world government can be set up with a more "enlightened" Constitution that will be offered.

2. Massive debt. Massive debt will eventually destroy the Republic. It is not a matter of if, but when. No nation can continue trillion dollar deficits indefinitely. How they got this far is nothing short of a miracle. And as the Republic folds, again, so do it's documents.

3. Assault on Christianity. Many think that morality and government are separate, but in reality, all laws represent a moral code. Moreover, only a moral society can be trusted with freedom. As Ben Franklin once said, "In these sentiments, sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think that a General government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and I believe further that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as toned despotic government, being incapable of any other." If society loses its moral soul and becomes a nation of convicts, then a warden is required to maintain order. Ripping morality out of schools and the rest of society is key to their cause. It's like I've always said, prison is a Prog utopia. Everyone has equal housing, dress, food, education, and health care and all of it is free. Not only that, these are "gun free zones" and every day is a gay pride day.

4. Centralized all powerful government. The last pillar upon which Progressivism rests is an all powerful centralized government. The only time this is not embraced is when it infringes upon one of the other pillars. For you see Progs today run around chanting state rights when it comes to illegal drug legalization or moving illegals around from sanctuary city to sanctuary city. For example, refeer use is a federal crime, as is illegal immigration. Progs are simply openly defying these rules of law as states like Colorado legalize the use of reefer or cities openly declare themselves a refuge for illegals. However, when it comes to any other issue, state rights go bye, bye. Instead, with Obama in office writing EO's that violate federal law on such things as immigration, then all of a sudden the federal government becomes the ultimate authority again. Then when states like Arizona try and stand up to enforce immigration laws on the books, they get sued by Obama and company and forced to comply with the law,. We have now become a nation of men, not laws, which further degrades the Constitution as a meaningless document to be reinterpreted awayor simply ignored by Progs to the point where no one even refers to it anymore.

Just right wing propaganda and rhetoric. I would rather hear it, from progressives.

Tell us how the right wing, is going to have more than just repeal, and solve all of our problems while lowering taxes.

Notice I did not mention a party, just Progs that have infiltrated both.

There is no real reform within the US federal government.

Let me give you a little history lesson. The Articles of Confederation was the first Constitution that only lasted a few years. The reason it failed was that the Federal government was not empowered enough to function. Then the Constitution was ratified which gave the Federal government enough power to function for well over a century.

Then came the Progressive movement that amended the Constitution to empower the federal government even farther via the federal Income tax and creation of the Fed. When they did this they did not put any restrictions on creating debt and later went off the gold standard so that they could simply print trillions of dollars for all the things they wanted to do that they knew they could not afford to do via the Fed. Now the states have no power as the Federal government threatens to cut off their funding unless they get in line. Progs essentially permanently altered the original intent of a limited government into one that is a centralized behemoth that micromanages every man, woman, and child on the face of the planet by simply throwing money at them

So we either allow the government to go belly up eventually with all the massive debt being created, or we have states rise up via the Article V movement and put restrictions on such things as spending and debt. Congress will never pass such restrictions on themselves.

So as you see, this is not a GOP vs. DNC issue. This is an issue of recreating federalism where states resume their power and the federal government goes back to playing the referee like it was originally designed.

 

[Votto]

Equality is the best foundation for a civilized society.

Equality of outcome or equality of opportunity?

If the former, you are not a liberal, you are a leftist. If the latter, yes, you are indeed a liberal.

Big damn difference, so I'm curious, which is it?

Equality under the law, equal opportunity. Everyone is responsible for their own outcomes. I don't know of any prominent person on the left nor have I heard any liberal support equality of outcomes. I think that is a right-wing radio thing.

Leave your right-wing labels alone. They don't apply.

I care not for labels, but I do care for accuracy and transparency.

Unless you and I have a very different definition for 'person on the left', I would argue leftists most certainly support equality of outcome. Welfare, in all it's forms, is designed to improve the outcome of chosen citizens. Equality of outcome is absolutely positively what things like affirmative action and protected classes are all about. The examples after over 100 years of progressive meddling are abundant, at local, state and federal levels, but at the end of the day, they're case for forcing wealth from some is that we should benefit others, to improve their outcome.

As one of the guys that pays the vast majority of those taxes, it sure as hell isn't improving outcome. That's government acting unequally.

Lastly, I assure you this hard core classical liberal / libertarian has PLENTY of issues with what you think of as 'right wing'.

I think welfare is designed to assist those in need. Period. The outcomes of those who receive it vary and depends on how that individual chooses to do with it and to get off it. Welfare doesn't last forever. All of this is the result of your fellow citizens enacting it through their duly elected representatives.

Affirmative action is an attempt by citizens to use the power of a duly elected government to level an uneven playing field for minorities and women who have been historically discriminated against.

Protected classes, as you call them, is an attempt by citizens through the power of laws enacted by their elected representatives to protect those who are vulnerable from those who would exploit that vulnerability. Discrimination against women, homosexuals, blacks, latinos, Jews, the handicapped is morally wrong and undermines our society.

Taxpayers all have some grievance about how their taxes are spent. Your grievance is no more valid or special than anyone else's.

Progs use the General Welfare wording in the Constitution to justify welfare by throwing money at everyone to control them This even includes corporations and foreign countries

However, read what the author of the General Welfare clause had to say about it.

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare,
and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare,
they may take the care of religion into their own hands;
they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish
and pay them out of their public treasury;
they may take into their own hands the education of children,
establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union;
they may assume the provision of the poor;
they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads;
in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation
down to the most minute object of police,
would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power
of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for,
it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature
of the limited Government established by the people of America

As you can see, the Prog interpretation of the General Welfare Clause is pure bunk, but no one gives a damn, Our nation has been transmuted.

 

[Tom Horn]

There's nothing "progressive" about these mutts....they're stuck in FDR's world of fascist tyrants and a collapsed Wall Street. They still see banks and free-enterprise as evil and believe they can stay lazy if they can keep getting free shit from us taxpayers. They believe in silly things like gorebal warming because they have no other moral compass...they're atheists and believe it all ends when the lights go out. They are envious, sarcastic, and believe they're better educated and worldly than conservatives. Which actually means they're spiritually compromised and believe the US would be wonderful if it turned into eurotrash where trains are ridden when it's too far to peddle your bicycle. I don't despise them or pity them.....even enjoy a few of them being around.

I've been harassing the best of them on these boards for 15 years and never get tired of catching them in their little schemes. 8 years of Barry emboldened them into thinking they'd won and the traditional culture had been destroyed. And then Trump rolled into the WH and decimated every expectation they had for the future. Little doubt they have no idea how to cope with him and us anymore. They want to find something, anything, they can cling to until 2018 when they'll use every trick in the book to steal Congress back from us. Until then they'll disrupt and harass any politician they can get to in any way they can. But they won't take Congress back or the WH again in their life-times and deep down inside they know it.....which explains their behavior here. Enjoy it, revel in it....we deserve Trump and his posse after putting up with the Kenyan's antics. Hopefully we can jail most of that bunch, maybe even the halfrican himself and finally be rid of regressives hiding behind a tattered old banner of failure.

 

[Votto]

From near as I can tell, there are 4 pillars of Progressivism which is their foundation. All four of these pillars is an assault on the Constitution. Why? Because the Constitution is a document that attempted to create a government that is limited. In other words, those in government are viewed as not having any superior intellectual capacity or righteous character than the average citizen. Such outrageous thinking must be destroyed so that every aspect in our lives is overseen and regulated by government who are the master race. Why without Big Brother monitoring our every move, we would all be dying in the streets as we render the planet inhabitable environmentally.

1. Illegal Immigration. Illegal immigration is the first pillar. It carries with it the notion that borders are not needed. We hear many Progs today say as much. So if there are no borders, then there are no sovereign nations. If there are no sovereign nations, then the Republic becomes obsolete, along with its documents such as the Constitution. Then an all powerful world government can be set up with a more "enlightened" Constitution that will be offered.

2. Massive debt. Massive debt will eventually destroy the Republic. It is not a matter of if, but when. No nation can continue trillion dollar deficits indefinitely. How they got this far is nothing short of a miracle. And as the Republic folds, again, so do it's documents.

3. Assault on Christianity. Many think that morality and government are separate, but in reality, all laws represent a moral code. Moreover, only a moral society can be trusted with freedom. As Ben Franklin once said, "In these sentiments, sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think that a General government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and I believe further that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as toned despotic government, being incapable of any other." If society loses its moral soul and becomes a nation of convicts, then a warden is required to maintain order. Ripping morality out of schools and the rest of society is key to their cause. It's like I've always said, prison is a Prog utopia. Everyone has equal housing, dress, food, education, and health care and all of it is free. Not only that, these are "gun free zones" and every day is a gay pride day.

4. Centralized all powerful government. The last pillar upon which Progressivism rests is an all powerful centralized government. The only time this is not embraced is when it infringes upon one of the other pillars. For you see Progs today run around chanting state rights when it comes to illegal drug legalization or moving illegals around from sanctuary city to sanctuary city. For example, refeer use is a federal crime, as is illegal immigration. Progs are simply openly defying these rules of law as states like Colorado legalize the use of reefer or cities openly declare themselves a refuge for illegals. However, when it comes to any other issue, state rights go bye, bye. Instead, with Obama in office writing EO's that violate federal law on such things as immigration, then all of a sudden the federal government becomes the ultimate authority again. Then when states like Arizona try and stand up to enforce immigration laws on the books, they get sued by Obama and company and forced to comply with the law,. We have now become a nation of men, not laws, which further degrades the Constitution as a meaningless document to be reinterpreted awayor simply ignored by Progs to the point where no one even refers to it anymore.

Don't forget abortion. You you can't rain death on your unborn child the progs want nothing to do with you.

I would place abortion with assaulting Christianity.

For you see, if there is no God, then we are just glorified animals. How do we treat animals? We lock them in zoos, steal their habitat, use them as beasts of burden, kill and eat them, or if they are lucky they become a pet.

To the secular humanist, human value is not above that of their dog so abortion is no big deal.

The main focus is on the environment and natural resources. Progs fear that population levels have become or will become unsustainable and they will lose their precious natural resources. Since they don't believe in a God, then they have to assume the role. This means supporting any position that might lower population levels, such as abortion or gay marriage.

You can see what they think of the human race in Hollywood and the media.

 

[Votto]

The 17th Amendment was the biggest coup d'etat for the progressive movement. Repeal it, and you may slow the inevitable advancement of liberalism and an ever bigger central government.

The 17th Amendment happened because people were tired of the corrupt buffoons that the state legislatures kept sending to washington.

We were quite capable of selecting our own corrupt buffoons.

The Founding Fathers would disagree. They did not want a direct democracy, rather, they wanted a mix.

This is why the House was directly elected by the people and why those in the Senate were selected by state governments.

Just see how the Founding Fathers valued direct democracy verses representation. Those in the House were only given 2 years to serve and those in the Senate were given 6 years to serve. In addition, there are only 2 Senators per state verses a myriad in the House. So I ask you, how much confidence did the Founding Fathers have with direct voting from the people to elect suitable candidates vs. those in state government? Obviously they trusted the states to pick better representatives.

Of course, Progs would scoff at this and refer to the US government in the same breath as a democracy. Well guess what, the US is a Republic, not a democracy. The Founding Fathers knew better than to create a direct democracy.

 

[Votto]

Wrong. The Constitution makes the federal government supreme.

Still wrong. Obama couldn't do nearly what he wanted even with a Dem congress because he was limited by the constitution.

Where did conservatives go when they thought they could get Obamacare declared unconstitutional?

Did they go to the states and say, just nullify the federal law?

Or did they go to the supreme federal government to try to use its supreme authority?

ACA was, and is, unconstitutional. The SC got it wrong. But fear not, that is being fixed.

Ok, so if it was unconstitutional why is it still in force?

the SC ruled it constitutional. they have the final say on such things. so at the moment it is constitutional by definition. However, as I said, that is being fixed.

Originally SCOTUS was not seen as having the final say on what is Constitutional. The case Marbury vs. Madison essentially gave SCOTUS the authority to decide what is Constitutional. In other words, they gave it to themselves. Jefferson was enraged at this notion, and was very vocal about his disagreement with the SCOTUS decision, but lost

Then it was not too much later that SCOTUS passed the Dred Scott decision, a travesty of Constitutional law by any standard. Of course, after Marbury vs. Madison, there was no one left to challenge the Constitutionality of such rulings as Jefferson had warned. Luckily though, the Civil war soon brought an end to it.......but that was just luck.

 

[Votto]

From near as I can tell, there are 4 pillars of Progressivism which is their foundation. All four of these pillars is an assault on the Constitution. Why? Because the Constitution is a document that attempted to create a government that is limited. In other words, those in government are viewed as not having any superior intellectual capacity or righteous character than the average citizen. Such outrageous thinking must be destroyed so that every aspect in our lives is overseen and regulated by government who are the master race. Why without Big Brother monitoring our every move, we would all be dying in the streets as we render the planet inhabitable environmentally.

1. Illegal Immigration. Illegal immigration is the first pillar. It carries with it the notion that borders are not needed. We hear many Progs today say as much. So if there are no borders, then there are no sovereign nations. If there are no sovereign nations, then the Republic becomes obsolete, along with its documents such as the Constitution. Then an all powerful world government can be set up with a more "enlightened" Constitution that will be offered.

2. Massive debt. Massive debt will eventually destroy the Republic. It is not a matter of if, but when. No nation can continue trillion dollar deficits indefinitely. How they got this far is nothing short of a miracle. And as the Republic folds, again, so do it's documents.

3. Assault on Christianity. Many think that morality and government are separate, but in reality, all laws represent a moral code. Moreover, only a moral society can be trusted with freedom. As Ben Franklin once said, "In these sentiments, sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think that a General government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and I believe further that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as toned despotic government, being incapable of any other." If society loses its moral soul and becomes a nation of convicts, then a warden is required to maintain order. Ripping morality out of schools and the rest of society is key to their cause. It's like I've always said, prison is a Prog utopia. Everyone has equal housing, dress, food, education, and health care and all of it is free. Not only that, these are "gun free zones" and every day is a gay pride day.

4. Centralized all powerful government. The last pillar upon which Progressivism rests is an all powerful centralized government. The only time this is not embraced is when it infringes upon one of the other pillars. For you see Progs today run around chanting state rights when it comes to illegal drug legalization or moving illegals around from sanctuary city to sanctuary city. For example, refeer use is a federal crime, as is illegal immigration. Progs are simply openly defying these rules of law as states like Colorado legalize the use of reefer or cities openly declare themselves a refuge for illegals. However, when it comes to any other issue, state rights go bye, bye. Instead, with Obama in office writing EO's that violate federal law on such things as immigration, then all of a sudden the federal government becomes the ultimate authority again. Then when states like Arizona try and stand up to enforce immigration laws on the books, they get sued by Obama and company and forced to comply with the law,. We have now become a nation of men, not laws, which further degrades the Constitution as a meaningless document to be reinterpreted awayor simply ignored by Progs to the point where no one even refers to it anymore.

Dear Votto Thanks for this breakdown

On another thread you adeptly pointed out that someone blaming Christianity and religion was making an overly broad generalization, which only addressed abuses and precluded the positive meaning message and application of such systems.

Well the same can be said of both attacks on the left and the right. There is a right way to pursue those political beliefs that IS Constitutional and Wrong ways that are Unconstitutional.

You have clearly listed the wrong ways which I agree undermine Constitutional ethics and enforcement .

Let me also list the Right ways to pursue and fulfill Progressive goals:

1. First Inclusion of Diversity should mean Political beliefs as well as religious beliefs equally protected by Constitutional laws. NOT discrimination by creed as currently practiced not only by the Party politics, not only in govt in both legal and legislative actions, but seen in the media and with public officials such as Obama who abused both public office and media to preach and enforce punishment against citizens for having opposing beliefs . I agree this discrimination has to stop. The difference in my argument, I'm saying inclusion is in keeping with progressive ideals and that this discrimination by creed violates progressive ideals and principles. So the problem is the party leaders and agenda are not following or fulfilling the very principles of inclusion that we fight for.

2. Equality through ownership not through dependence on govt . here you will see a split between the true progressive greens who push for worker owned cooperatives vs elitist Democrats who preach depending on govt for social programs which enslaves voters workers and taxpayers to systems we don't control ourselves. I'm arguing the true progressives push for worker owned coops, including independent currency and health care cooperatives that liberate workers and whole communities by teaching self reliance and independence from govt bureaucracy. Surprisingly enough, I even found progressive socialists arguing for ownership to shift back to workers and away from corporations and govt that are monolozing control. So there is more common ground between socialists and capitalists arguing for people to own their own production and businesses and reduce govt.

3. Education and training to achieve this liberation. This includes Constituonal education as well as business and mgmt training to move people from stages of dependence to becoming self governing and self managing not only in businesses, but in schools, in health care, and running local govt and even prisons by democratic participation instead of corporate controlled bureaucracies monopolizing govt contracts and dumping debts on taxpayers with no representation or accountability.
To achieve this conversion means taking back public schools public housing prisons health care and immigration detention, and transferring ownership back to districts to manage through schools that can keep track of which people need what level of support and training to become independent so this is managed by sponsors and mentors who voluntarily select and work with applicants.
This way, we can convert the state spending on crime prisons and immigration into jobs in education, policing, and health care instead of charging taxpayers more money .
The 4-5 areas I would focus education on to achieve liberation and equal empowerment are :
1. Spiritual education on the factor of forgiveness in healing physical and social ills, to reduce costs of health care, wipe out criminal illness abuse and addictions that can be proven medically to be cured by spiritual healing therapy, and invest in medical and social services that break the cycle of poverty and crime so we do have enough resources to pay for sustainable health care including support for the truly disabled by creating jobs for medical interns while they work for their education.
2. Legal govt and Constitutional education and training in self govt. Including training and assistance in conflict resolution, mediation and consensus, mgmt of diversity in religious and political groups, and administrative assistance to turn restitution for crimes and corruption costing taxpayers huge debts into microlending and financing to cover costs of reforms and sustainable development that will save taxpayer money in the future ( such as converting prisons and sweatshops into work study programs and health care clinics to provide social services as part of educational job training for workers and students, where inmates and immigrants earn their credits and status and there is no free ride off other taxpayers , but contributions by sponsors and donors are voluntary)
3. Business property and financial management.
4. Media including radio internet and music and movie production . both for economic empowerment and self- representation so there is check on media directly.
5. Science and technology. Especially converting current systems of energy transportation and housing into more cost effective sustainable means, but by local ownership not corporate dictactorship to monopolize the rules as is happening now with the global warming issues.

4. A system of redressing grievances to convert public debts and damages from corporate and govt abuses into microlending and financing these reforms and build sustainable community programs and development based on local self govt.

This will create jobs in reforms where people can receive mentorship and training in Constitutional govt management.
We can start with the border, putting Democrats in charge of reforming prisons and health care, Republicans with the VA and military bases and hospitals across the border, and Greens with converting sweatshops and labor pools into sustainable worker owned production facilities and schools. The Libertarians can be in charge of the Constitutional convention to create a grievances process for turning restitution for crimes into capital credits to invest in these reforms . all parties would have full time jobs and means of training future candidates for govt jobs running things the right way.

Www.earnedamnesty.com
Www.ethics-commission.net
Www.spiritual I healing.us

WTH is equality exactly? How about giving people their freedom and let them live their lives the best they can and butt the hell out?

Progs love the term equality. Do you know why? It's because equality does not exist. How can you make a stupid person and a brilliant person equal? How do you make a man and a woman equal? How do you make the poor and rich equal? You can't, that's how. However, Progs love the concept because the term equality sounds so righteous. Why everyone and everything should be equal, right? So Progs use this term for their own demagoguery because they know that it will never go out of style because it is not achievable. This means that they will simply grow government indefinitely to try and "fix" something that has no solution.

Of course, they are not really interested in a solution, they are merely using equality as a tool to achieve their own respective agendas.

As for the rest of it, I'm not so much interested in a one solution fits all anymore. I think states should regain their power and implement their own solutions, much like Romney did with Romneycare. That way we have 50 different examples of what works and what does not. This is a much better approach than someone sitting in the Oval Office deciding such things like how your child should be taught in kindergarten. The whole centralized top down governing by a hand full of people is absurd. It's like my daddy always said, none of us are as smart as all of us. This was the original intent of the Founding Fathers, to have states decide and include everyone in the country on these types of decisions.

I seriously hope you look into the Article V movement. States need to regain what they have lost and those in the Federal government need to stop pretending that one size really fits all and that they have the one solution for everyone. Such fantasy is why Dims are always sold as so much more intellectually gifted as their opponents. Also notice that in tyrannical regimes, like the former USSR, China, and even Venezuela, their leaders are often embalmed and put on display. It coincides with the premise that the leaders of these regimes are all knowing and have the perfect solution to all of our problems. Then when they die how do we all go on living? Easy, they just put them under glass and preserve them like an eternal deity that will still look after them when the die.

What I'm most sick of though is having half of America wish to secede from the Union every Presidential election. Liberal states and Conservative states should be able to run their own affairs, instead of one trying to impose their will on the other.

How about you? Do you want continued division or just let people live their lives how they see fit?

As it stands now, the US Congress has not had an approval rating above 20% for some time now. Many can't even attend a Presidential nomination for another party, let alone work together. Now instead of discussing issues and compromising they just shut government down to get their own way. The Prog centralized system is in shambles and has failed us.

 

[Votto]

Equality is the best foundation for a civilized society.

Equality of outcome or equality of opportunity?

If the former, you are not a liberal, you are a leftist. If the latter, yes, you are indeed a liberal.

Big damn difference, so I'm curious, which is it?

Teach the right wing how to fish, and all they come up with is Red Herrings.

Teach the left wing how to fish, and all they come up with is "it's not fair".

No matter how much you tell someone life is not fair and no matter if they agree, it never seems to register.

Life is hard, but most refuse to acknowledge this fact and think that an easy life is a natural right. It's what the US has devolved into.

 

[Votto]

The OP is a ludicrous brain vomit. But it is presented as 'for near as I can tell', kind of like how a hillbilly would describe how a nuclear plant works. Doesn't know but makes an uneducated guess at it.

I just want to thank you for you insightful and thoughtful reply.

In fact, I've placed a picture of your avatar on my wall and I pray to it every night to someday be as smart as you.

Thanks again.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The OP is a ludicrous brain vomit. But it is presented as 'for near as I can tell', kind of like how a hillbilly would describe how a nuclear plant works. Doesn't know but makes an uneducated guess at it.

I just want to thank you for you insightful and thoughtful reply.

In fact, I've placed a picture of your avatar on my wall and I pray to it every night to someday be as smart as you.

Thanks again.

I don't recommend praying, especially to 'an avatar'. Better to turn off the radio for a few days and relax.

 

[emilynghiem]

From near as I can tell, there are 4 pillars of Progressivism which is their foundation. All four of these pillars is an assault on the Constitution. Why? Because the Constitution is a document that attempted to create a government that is limited. In other words, those in government are viewed as not having any superior intellectual capacity or righteous character than the average citizen. Such outrageous thinking must be destroyed so that every aspect in our lives is overseen and regulated by government who are the master race. Why without Big Brother monitoring our every move, we would all be dying in the streets as we render the planet inhabitable environmentally.

1. Illegal Immigration. Illegal immigration is the first pillar. It carries with it the notion that borders are not needed. We hear many Progs today say as much. So if there are no borders, then there are no sovereign nations. If there are no sovereign nations, then the Republic becomes obsolete, along with its documents such as the Constitution. Then an all powerful world government can be set up with a more "enlightened" Constitution that will be offered.

2. Massive debt. Massive debt will eventually destroy the Republic. It is not a matter of if, but when. No nation can continue trillion dollar deficits indefinitely. How they got this far is nothing short of a miracle. And as the Republic folds, again, so do it's documents.

3. Assault on Christianity. Many think that morality and government are separate, but in reality, all laws represent a moral code. Moreover, only a moral society can be trusted with freedom. As Ben Franklin once said, "In these sentiments, sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, if they are such; because I think that a General government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered; and I believe further that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as toned despotic government, being incapable of any other." If society loses its moral soul and becomes a nation of convicts, then a warden is required to maintain order. Ripping morality out of schools and the rest of society is key to their cause. It's like I've always said, prison is a Prog utopia. Everyone has equal housing, dress, food, education, and health care and all of it is free. Not only that, these are "gun free zones" and every day is a gay pride day.

4. Centralized all powerful government. The last pillar upon which Progressivism rests is an all powerful centralized government. The only time this is not embraced is when it infringes upon one of the other pillars. For you see Progs today run around chanting state rights when it comes to illegal drug legalization or moving illegals around from sanctuary city to sanctuary city. For example, refeer use is a federal crime, as is illegal immigration. Progs are simply openly defying these rules of law as states like Colorado legalize the use of reefer or cities openly declare themselves a refuge for illegals. However, when it comes to any other issue, state rights go bye, bye. Instead, with Obama in office writing EO's that violate federal law on such things as immigration, then all of a sudden the federal government becomes the ultimate authority again. Then when states like Arizona try and stand up to enforce immigration laws on the books, they get sued by Obama and company and forced to comply with the law,. We have now become a nation of men, not laws, which further degrades the Constitution as a meaningless document to be reinterpreted awayor simply ignored by Progs to the point where no one even refers to it anymore.

Dear Votto Thanks for this breakdown

On another thread you adeptly pointed out that someone blaming Christianity and religion was making an overly broad generalization, which only addressed abuses and precluded the positive meaning message and application of such systems.

Well the same can be said of both attacks on the left and the right. There is a right way to pursue those political beliefs that IS Constitutional and Wrong ways that are Unconstitutional.

You have clearly listed the wrong ways which I agree undermine Constitutional ethics and enforcement .

Let me also list the Right ways to pursue and fulfill Progressive goals:

1. First Inclusion of Diversity should mean Political beliefs as well as religious beliefs equally protected by Constitutional laws. NOT discrimination by creed as currently practiced not only by the Party politics, not only in govt in both legal and legislative actions, but seen in the media and with public officials such as Obama who abused both public office and media to preach and enforce punishment against citizens for having opposing beliefs . I agree this discrimination has to stop. The difference in my argument, I'm saying inclusion is in keeping with progressive ideals and that this discrimination by creed violates progressive ideals and principles. So the problem is the party leaders and agenda are not following or fulfilling the very principles of inclusion that we fight for.

2. Equality through ownership not through dependence on govt . here you will see a split between the true progressive greens who push for worker owned cooperatives vs elitist Democrats who preach depending on govt for social programs which enslaves voters workers and taxpayers to systems we don't control ourselves. I'm arguing the true progressives push for worker owned coops, including independent currency and health care cooperatives that liberate workers and whole communities by teaching self reliance and independence from govt bureaucracy. Surprisingly enough, I even found progressive socialists arguing for ownership to shift back to workers and away from corporations and govt that are monolozing control. So there is more common ground between socialists and capitalists arguing for people to own their own production and businesses and reduce govt.

3. Education and training to achieve this liberation. This includes Constituonal education as well as business and mgmt training to move people from stages of dependence to becoming self governing and self managing not only in businesses, but in schools, in health care, and running local govt and even prisons by democratic participation instead of corporate controlled bureaucracies monopolizing govt contracts and dumping debts on taxpayers with no representation or accountability.
To achieve this conversion means taking back public schools public housing prisons health care and immigration detention, and transferring ownership back to districts to manage through schools that can keep track of which people need what level of support and training to become independent so this is managed by sponsors and mentors who voluntarily select and work with applicants.
This way, we can convert the state spending on crime prisons and immigration into jobs in education, policing, and health care instead of charging taxpayers more money .
The 4-5 areas I would focus education on to achieve liberation and equal empowerment are :
1. Spiritual education on the factor of forgiveness in healing physical and social ills, to reduce costs of health care, wipe out criminal illness abuse and addictions that can be proven medically to be cured by spiritual healing therapy, and invest in medical and social services that break the cycle of poverty and crime so we do have enough resources to pay for sustainable health care including support for the truly disabled by creating jobs for medical interns while they work for their education.
2. Legal govt and Constitutional education and training in self govt. Including training and assistance in conflict resolution, mediation and consensus, mgmt of diversity in religious and political groups, and administrative assistance to turn restitution for crimes and corruption costing taxpayers huge debts into microlending and financing to cover costs of reforms and sustainable development that will save taxpayer money in the future ( such as converting prisons and sweatshops into work study programs and health care clinics to provide social services as part of educational job training for workers and students, where inmates and immigrants earn their credits and status and there is no free ride off other taxpayers , but contributions by sponsors and donors are voluntary)
3. Business property and financial management.
4. Media including radio internet and music and movie production . both for economic empowerment and self- representation so there is check on media directly.
5. Science and technology. Especially converting current systems of energy transportation and housing into more cost effective sustainable means, but by local ownership not corporate dictactorship to monopolize the rules as is happening now with the global warming issues.

4. A system of redressing grievances to convert public debts and damages from corporate and govt abuses into microlending and financing these reforms and build sustainable community programs and development based on local self govt.

This will create jobs in reforms where people can receive mentorship and training in Constitutional govt management.
We can start with the border, putting Democrats in charge of reforming prisons and health care, Republicans with the VA and military bases and hospitals across the border, and Greens with converting sweatshops and labor pools into sustainable worker owned production facilities and schools. The Libertarians can be in charge of the Constitutional convention to create a grievances process for turning restitution for crimes into capital credits to invest in these reforms . all parties would have full time jobs and means of training future candidates for govt jobs running things the right way.

Www.earnedamnesty.com
Www.ethics-commission.net
Www.spiritual I healing.us

WTH is equality exactly? How about giving people their freedom and let them live their lives the best they can and butt the hell out?

Progs love the term equality. Do you know why? It's because equality does not exist. How can you make a stupid person and a brilliant person equal? How do you make a man and a woman equal? How do you make the poor and rich equal? You can't, that's how. However, Progs love the concept because the term equality sounds so righteous. Why everyone and everything should be equal, right? So Progs use this term for their own demagoguery because they know that it will never go out of style because it is not achievable. This means that they will simply grow government indefinitely to try and "fix" something that has no solution.

Of course, they are not really interested in a solution, they are merely using equality as a tool to achieve their own respective agendas.

As for the rest of it, I'm not so much interested in a one solution fits all anymore. I think states should regain their power and implement their own solutions, much like Romney did with Romneycare. That way we have 50 different examples of what works and what does not. This is a much better approach than someone sitting in the Oval Office deciding such things like how your child should be taught in kindergarten. The whole centralized top down governing by a hand full of people is absurd. It's like my daddy always said, none of us are as smart as all of us. This was the original intent of the Founding Fathers, to have states decide and include everyone in the country on these types of decisions.

I seriously hope you look into the Article V movement. States need to regain what they have lost and those in the Federal government need to stop pretending that one size really fits all and that they have the one solution for everyone. Such fantasy is why Dims are always sold as so much more intellectually gifted as their opponents. Also notice that in tyrannical regimes, like the former USSR, China, and even Venezuela, their leaders are often embalmed and put on display. It coincides with the premise that the leaders of these regimes are all knowing and have the perfect solution to all of our problems. Then when they die how do we all go on living? Easy, they just put them under glass and preserve them like an eternal deity that will still look after them when the die.

What I'm most sick of though is having half of America wish to secede from the Union every Presidential election. Liberal states and Conservative states should be able to run their own affairs, instead of one trying to impose their will on the other.

How about you? Do you want continued division or just let people live their lives how they see fit?

As it stands now, the US Congress has not had an approval rating above 20% for some time now. Many can't even attend a Presidential nomination for another party, let alone work together. Now instead of discussing issues and compromising they just shut government down to get their own way. The Prog centralized system is in shambles and has failed us.

Dear Votto
I'm NOT talking about making people the same because I agree that's not possible.

People are NOT going to have the same educational and skills levels, and NOT going to be on the same level where some are renters who don't WANT to deal with management and others are owners and managers, and yet others are training other people to build and run their own programs. There are at least 4-5 levels of development, and NO people are NOT going to have the same responsibilities and abilities to participate in the decision making process.

That's NOT what I mean.

I mean equal respect, equal inclusion and right to consent within the bounds of ownership.

(so if someone is renting or under the sponsorship of other people, there ARE certain things they DON'T OWN or control or have say in, compared with property owners or people funding programs who HAVE more responsibility and thus have more decision making ability than those who are just participants but not owners in charge.)

What I mean by equal rights and protections, given that people are not of equal status: if you look at the set up at academic institutions as an example:
* the undergrad students
* the grad students
* the professors
* the staff
* the admin
* the school board
* the trustees/owners
All have different roles, rules and limits to their decision making ability. But in general, they are
all respectively still protected from abuses and have
rights to pursue grievances and also to have reports
or charges brought against them if they violate rules.

The rules for professors are different from students,
so these are not equal in terms of being "the same."

What I propose to manage the diversity in development and need for support among citizens
and the taxpaying populations is to manage the programs similar to a university.

So for example, what if the Democrats are in charge of managing taxes and programs for citizens who are in the STUDENT mode of depending on other people to manage educational programs for them, while they train for jobs, receive education, and work internships where they earn their course credits and scholarships for school by public service in health care, in social work, or other "social programs" (instead of these being funded as govt welfare).

What if Republicans are in charge of managing programs where the business owners and leaders receive tax breaks and credits for investing in building production facilities, campuses, teaching hospitals, etc. And providing LOANS instead of paying taxes to develop SELF-SUSTAINING social programs designed NOT to depend on govt.

Why can't this be developed by free enterprise?
And only rely on govt in cases of RESTITUTION
for crime, corruption or other violations that require
penalties to be paid into corrections and solutions.

but if no crime is involved, these programs can be
built by freely donating, lending, or investing capital
and give lenders a tax break for doing this work themselves. not only investing in building, but TRAINING and MENTORING business owners, administrators, teachers, medical professionals, etc.
to run programs that the local districts own instead of
relying on govt to magically create health care and
pay for education, or create jobs for workers.

In order to organize resources, I am SUGGESTING to delegate the needs and demands of the workers and students to the Democratic leadership to organize representation by district and state,
and to delegate to the Republican leaders to organize the business leaders and corporate financiers. Of course there will be cross over,
but that's a shortcut to organizing these CLASSES of people -- the populations DEPENDENT on govt and other people to manage and develop programs for them and the people who are able to manage
independently of govt and MENTOR others to become self-governing and self-sufficient.

Isn't that a more realistic way of handling the diverse classes and demands of our populations?

We don't need the whole govt run like a sixth grade class where everyone is spoon fed, when there are post-doctoral fellows in the class who can run their own school or even teach people to build their own universities.

So why not organize by development level, and then structure the taxes where they match the level at which people choose to contribute based on their skill level and ability to produce and invest capital.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Maybe you could try actually talking to progressives instead of repeating whatever shit you heard on hate radio.

That might be an awesome idea.

This is quite comical, coming from someone calling for Trump's impeachment in his sig line. We've all seen your posts, and you're about as nasty as it gets on this board. Try not to sit there and assume you have any moral superiority whilst spewing your hatred of Trump and his supporters. Please.

 

[TemplarKormac]

All human beings have human rights. Discrimination against a group of people for any reason is bad for society. Equality is the best foundation for a civilized society.

Stop right there. The liberal quest for "equality" has alienated far more people than it has equalized. Human rights have limits too. One of those human rights, the right to life, can be forfeited if you present a danger to your fellow man. This kind of broad view of "equality" and "human rights" is a dangerous one. No offense.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Liberty will always trump security.

I beg your pardon? No it does not. We must strike a balance between the two.

There comes a time when an utter disregard for security can result in lack of liberty, ergo anarchy. But oh well.

 

[usmbguest5318]

You're a great propagandist, but the fact is that the tenets of progressivism are what Progressives, not their opponents, say they are. What do Progressives say are their main tenets?

• The distrust of concentrated wealth and power in the hands of corporate oligarchy or aristocracy.
  
• Strong proponents of workplace regulations and the living wage.
  
• Environmental stewardship.
  
• Equality for all citizens, civil rights, and social justice.
  
• Investing in America

While one may think what one wants and what one can soundly advance, one is minimally obliged to at least accurately and with integrity identify what hell Progressives main "pillars" are.


The past does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
-- Samuel Langhorne Clemens


Progressivism was the reform movement that ran from the late 19th century through the first decades of the 20th century, during which leading intellectuals and social reformers in the United States sought to address the economic, political, and cultural questions that had arisen in the context of the rapid changes brought with the Industrial Revolution and the growth of modern capitalism in America. Rigorous and casual comparisons of today and the Gilded Age reveals extensive similarities, and as religious fundamentalism further insinuates itself into the fabric of our society, today's cultural mores become increasingly Victorian. Political verisimilitude exists between the two eras. Looking at the two major parties, Democrats and Republicans, in the Gilded Age, one observes the following:

• Party differences blur during this period with loyalties determined by region, religious, and ethnic differences.
• Voter turnout for presidential elections averaged over 78 percent of eligible voters; 60 to 80 percent in non-presidential years.
• Both parties were pro-business.
• Both parties were opposed to any type of economic radicalism or reform.
• Both parties advocated a "sound currency" and supported the status quo in the existing financial system.
• Federal government and, to some extent, state governments tended to do very little.
• Republicans dominate the Senate; Democrats dominate the House of Representatives.
• Republican Party splinter groups during this period: Stalwarts, Halfbreeds, Mugwumps.

Consideration of the short-lived Populist Party finds one discovering it:

• Formed in 1891 by remnants of the Farmers' Alliances.
• Big government party with a healthy list of demands that included:
  • free coinage of silver,
  • government ownership of the railroads, telegraphs, and telephone lines,
  • graduated income tax,
  • direct election of U. S. senators,
  • the use of initiative, referendum, and recall
• The party eventually fades because farmers' situation improved in the late 1890s and because their political agenda was assumed by the major parties.

Progressive reform policies from 1900-1920 are what ushered in the end of the Gilded Age's money-moved political corruption and control at the hands of a very few (comparatively), very rich (even by today's measures and using inflation unadjusted figures) individuals. One can cotton or not to that pattern of events, but one cannot deny is that Progressivism is what led to the growth and subsequent mid-20th century dominance of the middle class. But for those policies and related legislation and regulation, "regular" people would have continued to toil for "God only knows how long" in squalid conditions for low wages and at the mercy of the Robber Barons. [1] Thus, though one can freely deride today's political progressives, if history provides any guidance, one thing it tells us is that progressive policies did more for the middle class than did Republican or Democratic ones.

Accordingly it seems to me, based on the rancorous rabble rousings observed at Trump rallies, and incessant prattling about "this or that" being amiss here on USMB, Progressivism is in fact what people most want are progressive policies; however, by some strange set of machinations, the GOP leadership have convinced a ton of folks that they do not. What is there to say about that? Perhaps most GOP members aren't good students of American history. I bid you take a moment and consider the Gilded Age and Progressive Era and see if you don't agree something akin to Progressive Era reforms -- economically more laissez fair and less socially intrusive, but no less effective at ridding the nation of the corrupting ills that have beset it -- are again needed today.

• Are we living in the Second Gilded Age? - BBC News
  
• 8 Ways America's Headed Back to the Robber-Baron Era
  
• Connections: Second Coming of the Gilded Age |
  
• America’s Gilded Age: ‘A Tale of Today’ - NationofChange | Progressive Change Through Positive Action
• The Gilded Age, Then and Now
  
• Are We Living in A Second Gilded Age? Part 1 | In The Past Lane
  
• For folks seeking a refresher on the Gilded Age and Progressive Era that followed it. The last three documents are somewhat specialized, but they offer a variety of views into how the politics and culture of the respective periods percolated their way to the outcomes that are thus analyzed. In so doing, they add excellent perspective to the task of comparing and contrasting our times with those of the Gilded Age, along with doing so for approaches to ameliorating todays excesses and inefficiencies.
  • The Gilded Age | The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History
  • The Gilded Age vs. The Progressive Era
    
  • Industrialization, Urbanization, and Immigration in the Gilded Age
  • The Progressive Era
  • The Square Deal: Theodore Roosevelt and the Themes of Progressive Reform
  • Urbanization -- This is a series of excellent and short high school level essays that provide useful insights into the Gilded Age's dominant cultural, political and economic themes and their impacts and correlations.
  • The Determinants of Progressive Era Reform: The Pure Food and Drugs Act of 1906 -- An especially interesting essay that "examine three theories of Progressive Era regulation: public interest, industry capture, and information manipulation by the federal bureaucracy and muckraking press."
  • Abolition and Reinstatement of Capital Punishment During the Progressive Era and Early 20th Century -- Another excellent essay that examines the nature of Progressive Era reforms as they derived from and applied to a specific context: law and order.

Additional references:

• What Is Progressivism?
  
• Progressivism
  
• Progressivism, Schools and Schools of Education: An American Romance

Note:

1. It is well worth nothing that for all the progressive reforms for which the overwhelming majority of society yearned and received, the wealth, positions and lifestyle of the "Baronial" classes remained about as grand it was prior to the reforms. I point that out because short of something analogous in nature and scope to the Bolshevik Revolution -- itself a manifestation of how proportionally more "pissed off" and, previous to it, politically mute were members of the Russian under and working classes than were their American equivalents -- well off "Establishment" individuals are going to be just fine, even if they opt to leave the country to do so.
   
   "Common" people who are uncommonly ignorant may briefly think that's just fine, but they won't feel that way if rich people, en masse, take their wealth with them. Trust me, there are lots of places that are more than willing to welcome material quantities of sufficiently rich people, so much so that those places will modify their policies to encourage as much to happen.

 

[Iceweasel]

That's a trigger fact for them. You'll make them cry.

Wrong. The Constitution makes the federal government supreme.

Still wrong. Obama couldn't do nearly what he wanted even with a Dem congress because he was limited by the constitution.

Where did conservatives go when they thought they could get Obamacare declared unconstitutional?

Did they go to the states and say, just nullify the federal law?

Or did they go to the supreme federal government to try to use its supreme authority?

They went to the SCOTUS, not "the federal government". Your mind is gone. The federal government can't do away with the electoral college. You don't know what you're talking about.

The SCOTUS is a branch of the federal government you fucking imbecile. I'm not even surprised you don't know that since you didn't know there was a supremacy clause in the Constitution.

Liar. I pointed out the FACT that you had no clue what the supremacy clause was. You thought it meant supreme powers to federal government. No wonder you were a government drone, the private sector has no use for you.

I even gave you an example. The federal government can't do away with the electoral college. It takes 4/5th of the states. And you STILL don't get it! LOL. You poor bastard. I can't imagine fumbling through life like that.