Let's talk about the oft repeated phrase "a threat to democracy" we believe trump presents.

[berg80]

You've posted nothing but innuendo.

Former senior Justice Department officials testified Thursday that they told former President Trump he'd have mass resignations on hand if he installed former assistant attorney general Jeffrey Clark to run the DOJ.
Why it matters: Trump had considered naming Clark to replace then-Acting Attorney General Jeff Rosen after Rosen refused to investigate baseless election fraud claims. Clark, an environmental attorney, pushed a plan to overturn the election which former DOJ leaders called "nuts" and a "murder-suicide pact" at the Jan. 6 select committee's fifth hearing.

What they're saying: When Trump asked what then-acting deputy attorney general Richard Donoghue would do if he appointed Clark, Donoghue testified that he told Trump he would resign immediately.

• "I'm not working one minute for this guy, who I had just, you know, declared was incompetent."
• Donoghue said that Trump then turned to Steven Engel, who was serving as assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel and asked, "Steve, you wouldn't resign, would you?"
• "I said, 'Mr. President, I've been with you through four attorneys general, including two acting attorneys general, but I couldn't be part of this," Engel testified.
• "And then I said, 'We're not the only ones. No one cares if I resign. But you're going to lose every single aide. Your entire department of leadership will walk out within hours,'" Donoghue noted. "Within 24, 48, 72 hours, you could have hundreds of resignations ... because of your actions."

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/23/jeffrey-clark-jan6-hearing-trump

You believe Donoghue was lying?

 

[berg80]

The problem is Democrats did not follow the law and Judge Cannon fixed that.

The procedure that was followed in naming Smith has been in place, and upheld by numerous courts, for decades.

 

[Billiejeens]

A few of the officials who threatened to resign testified under oath about the incident.

Ha

 

[Billiejeens]

Former senior Justice Department officials testified Thursday that they told former President Trump he'd have mass resignations on hand if he installed former assistant attorney general Jeffrey Clark to run the DOJ.
Why it matters: Trump had considered naming Clark to replace then-Acting Attorney General Jeff Rosen after Rosen refused to investigate baseless election fraud claims. Clark, an environmental attorney, pushed a plan to overturn the election which former DOJ leaders called "nuts" and a "murder-suicide pact" at the Jan. 6 select committee's fifth hearing.

What they're saying: When Trump asked what then-acting deputy attorney general Richard Donoghue would do if he appointed Clark, Donoghue testified that he told Trump he would resign immediately.

• "I'm not working one minute for this guy, who I had just, you know, declared was incompetent."
• Donoghue said that Trump then turned to Steven Engel, who was serving as assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel and asked, "Steve, you wouldn't resign, would you?"
• "I said, 'Mr. President, I've been with you through four attorneys general, including two acting attorneys general, but I couldn't be part of this," Engel testified.
• "And then I said, 'We're not the only ones. No one cares if I resign. But you're going to lose every single aide. Your entire department of leadership will walk out within hours,'" Donoghue noted. "Within 24, 48, 72 hours, you could have hundreds of resignations ... because of your actions."

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/23/jeffrey-clark-jan6-hearing-trump

You believe Donoghue was lying?

Axios

My goodness.

 

[Billiejeens]

The procedure that was followed in naming Smith has been in place, and upheld by numerous courts, for decades.

Nope

You should really stop practicing law on the internet.

 

[Seymour Flops]

We spend so much time talking past each other I thought it might be useful to be more exacting in reference to what is meant by that phrase. It is most frequently used in the context of what another trump presidency may bring. Based in part on certain remarks he's made about retribution against his perceived enemies. And on the disavowed document, Project 2025, laying out a blueprint for what another term portends.

The thing is, we don't have to speculate about whether a threat will materialize..........it already has. I should say at this point I'm reluctant to illustrate what I mean because I know what kind of reaction it will elicit. But the point of the post is to be specific, not vague, so here goes.

On 4 January, the conservative lawyer John Eastman was summoned to the Oval Office to meet Donald Trump and Vice-President Mike Pence. Within 48 hours, Joe Biden’s victory in the 2020 presidential election would formally be certified by Congress, sealing Trump’s fate and removing him from the White House.
Tucker Carlson condemned over ‘false flag’ claim about deadly Capitol attack
The atmosphere in the room was tense. The then US president was “fired up” to make what amounted to a last-ditch effort to overturn the election results and snatch a second term in office in the most powerful job on Earth.

Eastman, who had a decades-long reputation as a prominent conservative law professor, had already prepared a two-page memo in which he had outlined an incendiary scenario under which Pence, presiding over the joint session of Congress that was to be convened on 6 January, effectively overrides the votes of millions of Americans in seven states that Biden had won, then “gavels President Trump as re-elected”.

The Eastman memo, first revealed by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa in their book Peril, goes on to predict “howls” of protest from Democrats. The theory was that Pence, acting as the “ultimate arbiter” of the process, would then send the matter to the House of Representatives which, following an arcane rule that says that where no candidate has reached the necessary majority each state will have one vote, also decides to turn the world upside down and hand the election to the losing candidate, Donald Trump.

‘A roadmap for a coup’: inside Trump’s plot to steal the presidency

A startling memo, a surreal Oval Office encounter – just some of the twists in the unfolding story of Trump’s bid to cling to power, which critics say was no less than an attempted coup

www.theguardian.com

Here's a link to the Eastman memo. https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf

I'm hoping not to get bogged down by folks who will not accept this meeting actually did take place. If you can't accept that it did this would be a good jumping off point for you.

Moving on, we come to the matter of Jeffrey Clark. You may or may not recall trump wanted to name him acting AG in order to use the influence of the DoJ to pursue baseless claims of massive voter fraud, specifically in GA. When some of the top DoJ officials heard of trump's desire they threatened to quit en masse if he promoted Clark.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials​

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would affect the state’s election results.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials (Published 2022)

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would...

www.nytimes.com

Former DOJ officials detail threatening to resign en masse in meeting with Trump​

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/23/1107217243/former-doj-officials-detail-threatening-resign-en-masse-trump-meeting

Finally, we come to trump's participation in the fake elector scheme.

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election​

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election

The most comprehensive factual record of former President Donald Trump and his close associates coordination of the false electors scheme.

www.justsecurity.org

Overwhelming documentary and testimonial evidence proves beyond any doubt these things I've outlined happened. All of which with one goal in mind. To create a scenario leading to trump remaining in power.

I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself when I say this is what is meant when I contend trump is a threat to democracy. He has already threatened it. There is every reason to believe he will threaten it again. Especially after the recent rulings of his SCOTUS.

Ultimately, I'm asking trump supporters to examine the record I've laid out. The demonstrable evidence shows trump and his cohorts tried to change the outcome of a presidential election. I can think of few greater threats to democracy than that. They say past is prologue, hence my (our) concern.

A couple of questions:

Why would Trump saying there would retribution if he was elected again be more of a threat to democracy than the actual retribution visited on Trump by the Biden administration?

Let’s start with that one. I’ll have more if you give a real answer.

 

[Marener]

No one who knows history, is literate past a 4th grade level, or is mentally stable believes that Trump is a threat to democracy.

Trump attempted to overturn the result of the 2020 election and came remarkably close. He crossed a line, but instead of being punished, you reward him.

This goes beyond Trump, and speaks to the lack of commitment to democratic principles among a large swath of the country.

 

[Billiejeens]

Trump attempted to overturn the result of the 2020 election and came remarkably close. He crossed a line, but instead of being punished, you reward him.

This goes beyond Trump, and speaks to the lack of commitment to democratic principles among a large swath of the country.

Democrats steal an election.
Republicans (and others) say hey we should look into that.

Republicans are the bad guys.


Luckily you are in a small minority at this point.

 

[Marener]

Democrats steal an election.
Republicans (and others) say hey we should look into that.

Republicans are the bad guys.


Luckily you are in a small minority at this point.

You clearly don’t understand the criticism of the Republican Party and you won’t listen to anyone explain it to you.

You’ve become walled in with your own fantasies.

 

[scruffy]

We agree. What I'm trying to do is get trump supporters to acknowledge the events I referred to actually happened, for a start.

No one cares.

What's important is leftards are completely incompetent and they lie a lot to cover up their failures.

Yes, we can use the Constitutional process to get them out.

That's the way our system was designed

It's a good thing

 

[berg80]

Why would Trump saying there would retribution if he was elected again be more of a threat to democracy than the actual retribution visited on Trump by the Biden administration?

The Biden admin had no control over, and furthermore played no role in, the decision by multiple grand juries to vote to indict trump for 91 felonies based on the evidence of his crimes.

 

[berg80]

A couple of questions:

Why would Trump saying there would retribution if he was elected again be more of a threat to democracy than the actual retribution visited on Trump by the Biden administration?

Let’s start with that one. I’ll have more if you give a real answer.

Do you think this is all fiction?

On 4 January, the conservative lawyer John Eastman was summoned to the Oval Office to meet Donald Trump and Vice-President Mike Pence. Within 48 hours, Joe Biden’s victory in the 2020 presidential election would formally be certified by Congress, sealing Trump’s fate and removing him from the White House.
Tucker Carlson condemned over ‘false flag’ claim about deadly Capitol attack
The atmosphere in the room was tense. The then US president was “fired up” to make what amounted to a last-ditch effort to overturn the election results and snatch a second term in office in the most powerful job on Earth.

Eastman, who had a decades-long reputation as a prominent conservative law professor, had already prepared a two-page memo in which he had outlined an incendiary scenario under which Pence, presiding over the joint session of Congress that was to be convened on 6 January, effectively overrides the votes of millions of Americans in seven states that Biden had won, then “gavels President Trump as re-elected”.

The Eastman memo, first revealed by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa in their book Peril, goes on to predict “howls” of protest from Democrats. The theory was that Pence, acting as the “ultimate arbiter” of the process, would then send the matter to the House of Representatives which, following an arcane rule that says that where no candidate has reached the necessary majority each state will have one vote, also decides to turn the world upside down and hand the election to the losing candidate, Donald Trump.

‘A roadmap for a coup’: inside Trump’s plot to steal the presidency​

A startling memo, a surreal Oval Office encounter – just some of the twists in the unfolding story of Trump’s bid to cling to power, which critics say was no less than an attempted coup

www.theguardian.com

Here's a link to the Eastman memo. https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf

I'm hoping not to get bogged down by folks who will not accept this meeting actually did take place. If you can't accept that it did this would be a good jumping off point for you.

Moving on, we come to the matter of Jeffrey Clark. You may or may not recall trump wanted to name him acting AG in order to use the influence of the DoJ to pursue baseless claims of massive voter fraud, specifically in GA. When some of the top DoJ officials heard of trump's desire they threatened to quit en masse if he promoted Clark.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials​

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would affect the state’s election results.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials (Published 2022)​

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would...

www.nytimes.com

Former DOJ officials detail threatening to resign en masse in meeting with Trump​

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/23/1107...ail-threatening-resign-en-masse-trump-meeting

Finally, we come to trump's participation in the fake elector scheme.

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election​

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election​

The most comprehensive factual record of former President Donald Trump and his close associates coordination of the false electors scheme.

www.justsecurity.org

 

[Billiejeens]

You clearly don’t understand the criticism of the Republican Party and you won’t listen to anyone explain it to you.

You’ve become walled in with your own fantasies.

There is no legitimate criticism from your side.

My side has some
Some even legit.

 

[Marener]

Do you think this is all fiction?

On 4 January, the conservative lawyer John Eastman was summoned to the Oval Office to meet Donald Trump and Vice-President Mike Pence. Within 48 hours, Joe Biden’s victory in the 2020 presidential election would formally be certified by Congress, sealing Trump’s fate and removing him from the White House.
Tucker Carlson condemned over ‘false flag’ claim about deadly Capitol attack
The atmosphere in the room was tense. The then US president was “fired up” to make what amounted to a last-ditch effort to overturn the election results and snatch a second term in office in the most powerful job on Earth.

Eastman, who had a decades-long reputation as a prominent conservative law professor, had already prepared a two-page memo in which he had outlined an incendiary scenario under which Pence, presiding over the joint session of Congress that was to be convened on 6 January, effectively overrides the votes of millions of Americans in seven states that Biden had won, then “gavels President Trump as re-elected”.

The Eastman memo, first revealed by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa in their book Peril, goes on to predict “howls” of protest from Democrats. The theory was that Pence, acting as the “ultimate arbiter” of the process, would then send the matter to the House of Representatives which, following an arcane rule that says that where no candidate has reached the necessary majority each state will have one vote, also decides to turn the world upside down and hand the election to the losing candidate, Donald Trump.

‘A roadmap for a coup’: inside Trump’s plot to steal the presidency​

A startling memo, a surreal Oval Office encounter – just some of the twists in the unfolding story of Trump’s bid to cling to power, which critics say was no less than an attempted coup

www.theguardian.com

Here's a link to the Eastman memo. https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf

I'm hoping not to get bogged down by folks who will not accept this meeting actually did take place. If you can't accept that it did this would be a good jumping off point for you.

Moving on, we come to the matter of Jeffrey Clark. You may or may not recall trump wanted to name him acting AG in order to use the influence of the DoJ to pursue baseless claims of massive voter fraud, specifically in GA. When some of the top DoJ officials heard of trump's desire they threatened to quit en masse if he promoted Clark.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials​

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would affect the state’s election results.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials (Published 2022)​

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would...

www.nytimes.com

Former DOJ officials detail threatening to resign en masse in meeting with Trump​

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/23/1107...ail-threatening-resign-en-masse-trump-meeting

Finally, we come to trump's participation in the fake elector scheme.

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election​

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election​

The most comprehensive factual record of former President Donald Trump and his close associates coordination of the false electors scheme.

www.justsecurity.org

I’ve never seen anyone from MAGA actually address this. The closest they’ve come is say it’s okay because it never really happened. Never once being able to actually condemn the sentiment behind it.

 

[Billiejeens]

I’ve never seen anyone from MAGA actually address this. The closest they’ve come is say it’s okay because it never really happened. Never once being able to actually condemn the sentiment behind it.

What do see specifically see as the sentiment?

 

[Justin Richardson]

We spend so much time talking past each other I thought it might be useful to be more exacting in reference to what is meant by that phrase. It is most frequently used in the context of what another trump presidency may bring. Based in part on certain remarks he's made about retribution against his perceived enemies. And on the disavowed document, Project 2025, laying out a blueprint for what another term portends.

The thing is, we don't have to speculate about whether a threat will materialize..........it already has. I should say at this point I'm reluctant to illustrate what I mean because I know what kind of reaction it will elicit. But the point of the post is to be specific, not vague, so here goes.

On 4 January, the conservative lawyer John Eastman was summoned to the Oval Office to meet Donald Trump and Vice-President Mike Pence. Within 48 hours, Joe Biden’s victory in the 2020 presidential election would formally be certified by Congress, sealing Trump’s fate and removing him from the White House.
Tucker Carlson condemned over ‘false flag’ claim about deadly Capitol attack
The atmosphere in the room was tense. The then US president was “fired up” to make what amounted to a last-ditch effort to overturn the election results and snatch a second term in office in the most powerful job on Earth.

Eastman, who had a decades-long reputation as a prominent conservative law professor, had already prepared a two-page memo in which he had outlined an incendiary scenario under which Pence, presiding over the joint session of Congress that was to be convened on 6 January, effectively overrides the votes of millions of Americans in seven states that Biden had won, then “gavels President Trump as re-elected”.

The Eastman memo, first revealed by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa in their book Peril, goes on to predict “howls” of protest from Democrats. The theory was that Pence, acting as the “ultimate arbiter” of the process, would then send the matter to the House of Representatives which, following an arcane rule that says that where no candidate has reached the necessary majority each state will have one vote, also decides to turn the world upside down and hand the election to the losing candidate, Donald Trump.

‘A roadmap for a coup’: inside Trump’s plot to steal the presidency

A startling memo, a surreal Oval Office encounter – just some of the twists in the unfolding story of Trump’s bid to cling to power, which critics say was no less than an attempted coup

www.theguardian.com

Here's a link to the Eastman memo. https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf

I'm hoping not to get bogged down by folks who will not accept this meeting actually did take place. If you can't accept that it did this would be a good jumping off point for you.

Moving on, we come to the matter of Jeffrey Clark. You may or may not recall trump wanted to name him acting AG in order to use the influence of the DoJ to pursue baseless claims of massive voter fraud, specifically in GA. When some of the top DoJ officials heard of trump's desire they threatened to quit en masse if he promoted Clark.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials​

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would affect the state’s election results.

Read the Unsent Letter by Jeffrey Clark to Georgia Officials (Published 2022)

Jeffrey Clark, a former Justice Department official who worked closely with President Donald J. Trump and his allies to undo the election, wanted to send a letter to state officials in Georgia that falsely claimed that the Justice Department had “identified significant concerns” that would...

www.nytimes.com

Former DOJ officials detail threatening to resign en masse in meeting with Trump​

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/23/1107217243/former-doj-officials-detail-threatening-resign-en-masse-trump-meeting

Finally, we come to trump's participation in the fake elector scheme.

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election​

Comprehensive Timeline on False Electors Scheme in 2020 Presidential Election

The most comprehensive factual record of former President Donald Trump and his close associates coordination of the false electors scheme.

www.justsecurity.org

Overwhelming documentary and testimonial evidence proves beyond any doubt these things I've outlined happened. All of which with one goal in mind. To create a scenario leading to trump remaining in power.

I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself when I say this is what is meant when I contend trump is a threat to democracy. He has already threatened it. There is every reason to believe he will threaten it again. Especially after the recent rulings of his SCOTUS.

Ultimately, I'm asking trump supporters to examine the record I've laid out. The demonstrable evidence shows trump and his cohorts tried to change the outcome of a presidential election. I can think of few greater threats to democracy than that. They say past is prologue, hence my (our) concern.

Maybe, I am missing something here. But I believe what Trump was referring to in regards to that phrase, is that the MSM is a "threat to Democracy".

 

[Marener]

There is no legitimate criticism from your side.

What you’re saying is that you’ve closed your mind and are no longer willing to consider the possibility you may be wrong.

This is ultimately very damaging to the country. It’s antithetical to our values.

 

[Marener]

What do see specifically see as the sentiment?

A willingness to win at any costs and lack of commitment to democratic principles.

Not that you care. You’ve already decide that anything I say will not be considered by you.

 

[Billiejeens]

What you’re saying is that you’ve closed your mind and are no longer willing to consider the possibility you may be wrong.

This is ultimately very damaging to the country. It’s antithetical to our values.

A proper response would have included legitimate concerns from your side.

There were none.

 

[Marener]

A proper response would have included legitimate concerns from your side.

There were none.

Given you told me you would not consider my response legitimate no matter what I said, I don’t see why that type of response would make sense.

If someone told you that a vending machine doesn’t give anyone a product when you put money in it, a proper response wouldn’t walking up and sticking money in it.