The largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world...

[BrokeLoser]

You fail to understand what a monopoly is and the harmful effects they cause. You also have no clue of the terrible harm caused by big business and big government working in tandem.

Get informed. Your posts are laughably absurd.

Sounds like you're the one uninformed. Walmart is not a monopoly. They have competitors like Amazon and Target. There is a host of other online services as well. Do you want government to step in and close down companies because they were too successful?

There it is again. Your ignorance. Walmart is essentially a monopoly. Just as is Amazon. You can bet they both use government to protect and benefit their business. Guess what my son? Small businesses can’t do this. Do you see a problem yet?

Why would government feel compelled to protect and benefit their business?
Weren’t you just telling us three threads ago that big corps and the uber rich don’t pay income taxes?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Look up how much of the market is controlled by the two. Then, don’t get back to me.

It doesn't matter how much of the market they control. People want to deal with these companies and that's why they are where they're at.

I'm a musician. Years ago small music stores competed with each other selling quality equipment. Then Guitar Centers moved into town. Those small music stores closed down because Guitar Centers opens up with over a million dollars of inventory. The small music shops that stayed open sell picks, strings, drum sticks, music books, wind instruments, and perhaps give music lessons, but they no longer sell big buck guitars, keyboards and drums. Everybody goes to Guitar Center for stuff like that.

What you refuse to understand is that big or small business is not controlled by government, they are controlled by us consumers.

 

[Slade3200]

And now who employees most of America? family owned middle class businesses or large corporations?

If you meant to say "employs" it's large corporations that the consumer decided to deal with. At one time Amazon was nothing more than a book seller. They decided to try and takeover the mom and pop stores along with the big box stores. They succeeded.

True... so now what happens as they continue to accumulate the wealth in this country?. You’re doing great so far and I appreciate the direct answers.

"so now what happens as they continue to accumulate the wealth in this country?"
You talk as if there is a defined amount of wealth/currency. Do you believe that once X currency is "accumulated" it never enters economic circulation again?
You realize wealth is earned and not "accumulated"...right?

Wealth is both earned and accumulated. How it circulates is important to understand, that’s what this whole discussion is about.

so and few people accumulate the wealth and obtain ownership over our businesses and real estate what do you think that leads to? A freer market or a corporate controlled market?

 

[Slade3200]

I’m not proposing doing anything right now. We are discussing whether wealth accumulation and inequality is an issue or not. Consumers didn’t just decide they like Papa John’s more. They decided they liked paying $12 for a pizza instead of $20. And papa John’s can work on lower margins
Because they have buying power. Rinse and repeat. This is happening across most industries

And it's been happening for the last 35 years that I can remember. This is all consumer driven, not government driven, not party driven. As a whole, we opted for cheaper prices even if it means much less quality right down to our food. Middle-aged and younger people don't know what a real Big Mac tastes like, or a real Whopper. Those were great sandwiches when they first came out. As Americans got cheaper, so did the ingredients in those sandwiches. The only two franchises that stayed the same are KFC and Wendy's, but you're not going to get any item from these two places that you get a Popeye's or Rally's for the same money. Here, there isn't a pizza place that isn't a franchise for ten miles. A new one is going to open up this month, we'll see if they can survive selling quality food at a higher price.

My uncle has been in the Pizza business his whole life. It’s a dying industry as it’s being taken over by a few franchises. This is happening across industries. Owners are being turning into employees. Home owners are being turned into renters. Play that out for another 35 years and tell me what that looks like...

 

[Slade3200]

Look up how much of the market is controlled by the two. Then, don’t get back to me.

It doesn't matter how much of the market they control. People want to deal with these companies and that's why they are where they're at.

I'm a musician. Years ago small music stores competed with each other selling quality equipment. Then Guitar Centers moved into town. Those small music stores closed down because Guitar Centers opens up with over a million dollars of inventory. The small music shops that stayed open sell picks, strings, drum sticks, music books, wind instruments, and perhaps give music lessons, but they no longer sell big buck guitars, keyboards and drums. Everybody goes to Guitar Center for stuff like that.

What you refuse to understand is that big or small business is not controlled by government, they are controlled by us consumers.

Ray you are describing the issue. Guitar center putting all the small shops out of business is an issue. It leads to business owners becoming employees. More wealth going to few people. I actually think you see and understand it. You are just dismissing it and calling it normal and then trying to defend the partisan side of things. Put aside the proposed partisan solutions and focus on the issue. You should be able to recognize that it is an issue

 

[wamose]

That few know about, thanks to a billionaire/government controlled corporate media.

Are not the following words depressingly true?

The Institute for Policy Studies has just released a new analysis showing that since the start of the Covid-19 “pandemic” in mid-March and the subsequent transfer upwards of $5 trillion to the wealthy and largest corporations through the Cares Act, approved 96-0 in the U.S. Senate, 650 U.S. billionaires have gained over a trillion dollars in eight months as the America people have suffered an economic catastrophe. This shift upward of massive wealth under Trump is similar to Obama’s massive 2009 bailout of the banks on the backs of American workers. Both were justified through feats of legerdemain by both political parties, accomplices in the fleecing of regular people, many of whom continue to support the politicians that screw them while telling them they care.

If the Democrats and the Republicans are at war as is often claimed, it is only over who gets the larger part of the spoils. Trump and Biden work for the same bosses, those I call the Umbrella People (those who own and run the country through their intelligence/military/media operatives), who produce and direct the movie that keeps so many Americans on the edge of their seats in the hope that their chosen good guy wins in the end.
The Past Lives On: The Elite Strategy To Divide and Conquer – Edward Curtin

Of course the bailout of the banks was tarp under George w bush and the GOP who caused the great recession with their usual corrupt deregulation bubble and bust. Great job! Obama stimulus was for main Street and worked great except it was probably too small. Little did they know they would be up against total ridiculous GOP obstruction for 8 years.... Change the channel

The blind partisan.

The only two parties in power since before the 1900s have been Republicans and Democrats. They have both written and passed laws that have hurt the American workers, yet partisans are still blind and unwilling to admit their party is 50% responsible, this attitude just leads to the problem getting worse.

Exactly right. These damn fool partisans are the reason why have had corrupt people in power. Yet they are too feeble minded to recognize this.

Do you consider Trump supporters Republican partisans? I don't. Trump supporters are Republicans who have broken the establishment chain, much the opposite of the Lincoln project assholes who are total elitist partisans. Trump is the only candidate who was pro worker. His job and wage increases proved that. The American worker is going to take a big hit with Biden, much like they would under someone like Hillary or Jeb Bush.

 

[georgephillip]

How do you propose we make this conversion? Do we send out the national guard and takeover all these industries by force?

Conversion strategies would be highly flexible. Owners of small businesses might choose to sell their company to their employees when the owners retire.

A public works program with living wage jobs for all who need one would be one starting point. Consumer/producer councils would help decide the degree of centralized vs decentralized economies.

Workers’ Self-Directed Enterprises: A Revolutionary Program

"The creators of 'Parecon' '“participatory economics') reject this type of decentralization.

"Instead they want the U.S. to be nationally organized into workplace councils and consumer (or neighborhood) councils (Albert, 2003; Hahnel, 2005).

"The consumers’ councils would state (on the Internet) what they want/ need.

"The workplace councils would respond with what they could produce, and what they would need in order to do so.

"Proposals and counterproposals would go back and forth over the Internet (with some overall guidance by 'facilitation' boards).

"An overall, country-wide, plan would be worked out, more-or-less acceptable to everyone.

"This would be a noncentralized economic plan. See also the variant model of 'Inclusive Democracy' as proposed by Takis Fotopoulos (1997).

"Other models could be proposed or worked out in practice in different regions and countries.

" It would have to be decided practically how to balance decentralized planning and cooperation with federated planning on a national, continental and global scale, also whether there would be a use for any degree of market mechanisms within the overall planning."

 

[wamose]

I’m not proposing doing anything right now. We are discussing whether wealth accumulation and inequality is an issue or not. Consumers didn’t just decide they like Papa John’s more. They decided they liked paying $12 for a pizza instead of $20. And papa John’s can work on lower margins
Because they have buying power. Rinse and repeat. This is happening across most industries

And it's been happening for the last 35 years that I can remember. This is all consumer driven, not government driven, not party driven. As a whole, we opted for cheaper prices even if it means much less quality right down to our food. Middle-aged and younger people don't know what a real Big Mac tastes like, or a real Whopper. Those were great sandwiches when they first came out. As Americans got cheaper, so did the ingredients in those sandwiches. The only two franchises that stayed the same are KFC and Wendy's, but you're not going to get any item from these two places that you get a Popeye's or Rally's for the same money. Here, there isn't a pizza place that isn't a franchise for ten miles. A new one is going to open up this month, we'll see if they can survive selling quality food at a higher price.

My uncle has been in the Pizza business his whole life. It’s a dying industry as it’s being taken over by a few franchises. This is happening across industries. Owners are being turning into employees. Home owners are being turned into renters. Play that out for another 35 years and tell me what that looks like...

It'll get much worse under establishment elitists like Biden.

 

[BrokeLoser]

And now who employees most of America? family owned middle class businesses or large corporations?

If you meant to say "employs" it's large corporations that the consumer decided to deal with. At one time Amazon was nothing more than a book seller. They decided to try and takeover the mom and pop stores along with the big box stores. They succeeded.

True... so now what happens as they continue to accumulate the wealth in this country?. You’re doing great so far and I appreciate the direct answers.

"so now what happens as they continue to accumulate the wealth in this country?"
You talk as if there is a defined amount of wealth/currency. Do you believe that once X currency is "accumulated" it never enters economic circulation again?
You realize wealth is earned and not "accumulated"...right?

Wealth is both earned and accumulated. How it circulates is important to understand, that’s what this whole discussion is about.

so and few people accumulate the wealth and obtain ownership over our businesses and real estate what do you think that leads to? A freer market or a corporate controlled market?

Wealth is earned.
“OUR businesses and real estate”
You keep making the mistake that all beggars tend to make, you honestly believe you have an equity share in ALL businesses and real estate in this nation. You couldn’t be more wrong.

“so and few people accumulate the wealth and obtain ownership over our businesses and real estate what do you think that leads to? A freer market or a corporate controlled market?”
Again, there is 244 years of historical data for you to sift through..I suggest you stop with the theory BS and do some due diligence. Report back to us with you findings.
In the meantime I’d suggest you stop begging desperate thirdworlders to invade our nation...expanding America’s underclass by the millions only exacerbates and accelerates the very thing you claim to take major issue with. Remember, always stay out of your own way, don’t manifest and foster the things you know you’ll bitch about later...That’s what disgusting, fucked in the head, lowlife, pieces of worthless shit Democrats do over and over again. You don’t want to classify with them.

 

[Slade3200]

I’m not proposing doing anything right now. We are discussing whether wealth accumulation and inequality is an issue or not. Consumers didn’t just decide they like Papa John’s more. They decided they liked paying $12 for a pizza instead of $20. And papa John’s can work on lower margins
Because they have buying power. Rinse and repeat. This is happening across most industries

And it's been happening for the last 35 years that I can remember. This is all consumer driven, not government driven, not party driven. As a whole, we opted for cheaper prices even if it means much less quality right down to our food. Middle-aged and younger people don't know what a real Big Mac tastes like, or a real Whopper. Those were great sandwiches when they first came out. As Americans got cheaper, so did the ingredients in those sandwiches. The only two franchises that stayed the same are KFC and Wendy's, but you're not going to get any item from these two places that you get a Popeye's or Rally's for the same money. Here, there isn't a pizza place that isn't a franchise for ten miles. A new one is going to open up this month, we'll see if they can survive selling quality food at a higher price.

My uncle has been in the Pizza business his whole life. It’s a dying industry as it’s being taken over by a few franchises. This is happening across industries. Owners are being turning into employees. Home owners are being turned into renters. Play that out for another 35 years and tell me what that looks like...

It'll get much worse under establishment elitists like Biden.

Perhaps. But to be clear are you agreeing that the core of the problem we are discussing is in fact a problem?

 

[georgephillip]

Is that why East Germany built the Trabant and West Germany built the Mercedes?

It's because US capitalists and UK capitalists defeated German capitalists in WWI and II; do you think the millions of dead civilians gives your side the moral high ground?

 

[gipper]

That few know about, thanks to a billionaire/government controlled corporate media.

Are not the following words depressingly true?

The Institute for Policy Studies has just released a new analysis showing that since the start of the Covid-19 “pandemic” in mid-March and the subsequent transfer upwards of $5 trillion to the wealthy and largest corporations through the Cares Act, approved 96-0 in the U.S. Senate, 650 U.S. billionaires have gained over a trillion dollars in eight months as the America people have suffered an economic catastrophe. This shift upward of massive wealth under Trump is similar to Obama’s massive 2009 bailout of the banks on the backs of American workers. Both were justified through feats of legerdemain by both political parties, accomplices in the fleecing of regular people, many of whom continue to support the politicians that screw them while telling them they care.

If the Democrats and the Republicans are at war as is often claimed, it is only over who gets the larger part of the spoils. Trump and Biden work for the same bosses, those I call the Umbrella People (those who own and run the country through their intelligence/military/media operatives), who produce and direct the movie that keeps so many Americans on the edge of their seats in the hope that their chosen good guy wins in the end.
The Past Lives On: The Elite Strategy To Divide and Conquer – Edward Curtin

Of course the bailout of the banks was tarp under George w bush and the GOP who caused the great recession with their usual corrupt deregulation bubble and bust. Great job! Obama stimulus was for main Street and worked great except it was probably too small. Little did they know they would be up against total ridiculous GOP obstruction for 8 years.... Change the channel

The blind partisan.

The only two parties in power since before the 1900s have been Republicans and Democrats. They have both written and passed laws that have hurt the American workers, yet partisans are still blind and unwilling to admit their party is 50% responsible, this attitude just leads to the problem getting worse.

Exactly right. These damn fool partisans are the reason why have had corrupt people in power. Yet they are too feeble minded to recognize this.

Do you consider Trump supporters Republican partisans? I don't. Trump supporters are Republicans who have broken the establishment chain, much the opposite of the Lincoln project assholes who are total elitist partisans. Trump is the only candidate who was pro worker. His job and wage increases proved that. The American worker is going to take a big hit with Biden, much like they would under someone like Hillary or Jeb Bush.

The problem is Trump is a conman. He may not be an establishment R, but he’s not for the working class.

Yes, he deserves credit for not starting wars as his war criminal predecessors did and credit for speaking about the problems the working class faces, but he’s done little to help the working class.

As my OP outlines, the CARES Act he signed gave peanuts to the people and trillions to the rich, just as Ears and W did during the Great Recession.

 

[Slade3200]

And now who employees most of America? family owned middle class businesses or large corporations?

If you meant to say "employs" it's large corporations that the consumer decided to deal with. At one time Amazon was nothing more than a book seller. They decided to try and takeover the mom and pop stores along with the big box stores. They succeeded.

True... so now what happens as they continue to accumulate the wealth in this country?. You’re doing great so far and I appreciate the direct answers.

"so now what happens as they continue to accumulate the wealth in this country?"
You talk as if there is a defined amount of wealth/currency. Do you believe that once X currency is "accumulated" it never enters economic circulation again?
You realize wealth is earned and not "accumulated"...right?

Wealth is both earned and accumulated. How it circulates is important to understand, that’s what this whole discussion is about.

so and few people accumulate the wealth and obtain ownership over our businesses and real estate what do you think that leads to? A freer market or a corporate controlled market?

Wealth is earned.
“OUR businesses and real estate”
You keep making the mistake that all beggars tend to make, you honestly believe you have an equity share in ALL businesses and real estate in this nation. You couldn’t be more wrong.

“so and few people accumulate the wealth and obtain ownership over our businesses and real estate what do you think that leads to? A freer market or a corporate controlled market?”
Again, there is 244 years of historical data for you to sift through..I suggest you stop with the theory BS and do some due diligence. Report back to us with you findings.
In the meantime I’d suggest you stop begging desperate thirdworlders to invade our nation...expanding America’s underclass by the millions only exacerbates and accelerates the very thing you claim to take major issue with. Remember, always stay out of your own way, don’t manifest and foster the things you know you’ll bitch about later...That’s what disgusting, fucked in the head, lowlife, pieces of worthless shit Democrats do over and over again. You don’t want to classify with them.

Dude, I never said anything wasn’t earned. Why are you responding with these random points?! I’m talking economics and how our society of effected by different factors. This topic seems to be over your head as you are constantly diverging to random partisan topics.

I’ve been talking about history and what we have seen in the past half century gives us plenty to chew on if you ever want to stay on topic. Keep the blinders on though, seems to be where you are most comfortable

 

[georgephillip]

Similar tyrant? You mean Democrats and Republicans?

I see elected Democrats and Republicans as the handmaidens of today's shareholder tyrants:

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly: A Summary

"The Principle of Privilege:

"Stockholders claim wealth they do little to create, much as nobles claimed privilege they did not earn."

 

[gipper]

...and while millions of Americans are out of work and suffering, the House passes the NDAA on a bipartisan basis. More Rs voted against it than Ds. They sure can work well together for the benefit of the MIC, but can’t pass shit to help the people.

Fucking warmongers.

Defying Trump, House approves defense bill with veto-proof majority

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They decided they liked paying $12 for a pizza instead of $20. And papa John’s can work on lower margins
Because they have buying power. Rinse and repeat.

Papa John's saved consumers $8 a pizza?

Damn those rapacious robber barons!!!!

 

[georgephillip]

If I wanted to start a company, why would I start one if the control would be in the hands of employees.

The idea is ridiculous and would never work.

Too late
It has already worked numerous times.
This is probably the best known example:

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia

"The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It is the largest cooperative in the world.[4]

"It was founded in the town of Mondragon in 1956 by José María Arizmendiarrieta and a group of his students at a technical college he founded. Its first product was paraffin heaters.

"It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and .

"At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[5] By 2019 81,507 people were employed."

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

How do you propose we make this conversion? Do we send out the national guard and takeover all these industries by force?

Conversion strategies would be highly flexible. Owners of small businesses might choose to sell their company to their employees when the owners retire.

A public works program with living wage jobs for all who need one would be one starting point. Consumer/producer councils would help decide the degree of centralized vs decentralized economies.

Workers’ Self-Directed Enterprises: A Revolutionary Program

"The creators of 'Parecon' '“participatory economics') reject this type of decentralization.

"Instead they want the U.S. to be nationally organized into workplace councils and consumer (or neighborhood) councils (Albert, 2003; Hahnel, 2005).

"The consumers’ councils would state (on the Internet) what they want/ need.

"The workplace councils would respond with what they could produce, and what they would need in order to do so.

"Proposals and counterproposals would go back and forth over the Internet (with some overall guidance by 'facilitation' boards).

"An overall, country-wide, plan would be worked out, more-or-less acceptable to everyone.

"This would be a noncentralized economic plan. See also the variant model of 'Inclusive Democracy' as proposed by Takis Fotopoulos (1997).

"Other models could be proposed or worked out in practice in different regions and countries.

" It would have to be decided practically how to balance decentralized planning and cooperation with federated planning on a national, continental and global scale, also whether there would be a use for any degree of market mechanisms within the overall planning."

Can you tell me what's stopping employees from buying the place they work at now, or perhaps a competitor? Companies selling out is no secret, it's publicly available. But most employees don't want to own any company. It's too much work, too much paperwork, too much accounting, too much worrying, too much risk. They simply want to do their job, go home, and get a paycheck on Friday or every other Friday. They don't need any headaches after they punch out at the end of the day.

It's just like my business of renting apartments. None of my tenants want to be landlords. It's a pain in the ass. I wouldn't be able to sell them the place if I wanted. The reason they are tenants instead of landords is because they don't want to deal with all of my problems. That's what I'm here for. Most employees don't want to deal with owning a business either. You just assume that they do, just like you assume running a business is a piece of cake. It's not. It's a lot of hard work.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You fail to understand what a monopoly is and the harmful effects they cause.

So explain.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

There it is again. Your ignorance. Walmart is essentially a monopoly. Just as is Amazon. You can bet they both use government to protect and benefit their business. Guess what my son? Small businesses can’t do this. Do you see a problem yet?

How can they both be monopolies when they sell the same types of merchandise? Do you know what a monopoly is? If mom and pop shops close up, it's due to lack of business, not what government does. The larger stores get more customers and evolution takes place like it always has. They close up.

You remind me of somebody that used to unload my truck at a company years ago when Home Depot opened up. He brought up how wrong it was that our local hardware store was closing, and much like you, blamed it on our local politicians. So I asked him, out of the last five times you needed hardware, where did you go? He put his head down in shame and said "Home Depot." I said well that's why our hardware store is closing up.

Look up how much of the market is controlled by the two. Then, don’t get back to me.

Look up how much of the market is controlled by the two.

Walmart had $524 billion in revenue last fiscal year, Amazon had $281 billion.

How large was the market?