The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Mushroom]

Yes and they surrendered when that last hope was gone. Within hours actually

Wrong.

At 4 in the morning Tokyo Time on 9 August, the Big Six plus one were still meeting. That is when they learned of the Invasion by the Soviets.

Until that time, the decision of the Big Six was still 4-2 to continue the war no matter what. But within hours they learned of the second bomb, and the Soviets declaring war and invading.

And it still took them a full day to surrender!

It was not "hours", unless you call 24 of them simply "hours". And it took another 3 days until they made the official announcement (and an attempted coup).

 

[Mushroom]

Major General Curtis LeMay, XXI Bomber Command, September 1945

Because he believed bombers ended the war, and would end any future war.

He claimed that Korea and Vietnam would be short easy wars, that bombers would destroy any opposition without losses to the US.

Tell me, how seriously should we take that claim, in light of his predictions afterwards?

 

[Vegasgiants]

Because he believed bombers ended the war, and would end any future war.

He claimed that Korea and Vietnam would be short easy wars, that bombers would destroy any opposition without losses to the US.

Tell me, how seriously should we take that claim, in light of his predictions afterwards?

Actually he advocated strongly for nuclear weapons in korea

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wrong.

At 4 in the morning Tokyo Time on 9 August, the Big Six plus one were still meeting. That is when they learned of the Invasion by the Soviets.

Until that time, the decision of the Big Six was still 4-2 to continue the war no matter what. But within hours they learned of the second bomb, and the Soviets declaring war and invading.

And it still took them a full day to surrender!

It was not "hours", unless you call 24 of them simply "hours". And it took another 3 days until they made the official announcement (and an attempted coup).

A full day


That's your response? Lol

 

[Mushroom]

A full day


That's your response? Lol

And once again, yours is predictable.

Proven wrong, simply shrug and ignore it.

Hell, I bet you even believe I am actually talking to you when I make these responses. I am not, I gave that up long ago as being completely pointless.

 

[Vegasgiants]

And once again, yours is predictable.

Proven wrong, simply shrug and ignore it.

Hell, I bet you even believe I am actually talking to you when I make these responses. I am not, I gave that up long ago as being completely pointless.

They sure didnt surrender a day after we dropped a nuclear weapon on them



HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Mac-7]

Yes and they surrendered when that last hope was gone. Within hours actually

I dont think anything we say here will change your mind

and we have said a lot

hopefully this information will not be wiped from the internet leaving only old books tucked away somewhere for future Americans to learn from

 

[ding]

They sure didnt surrender a day after we dropped a nuclear weapon on them



HAHAHAHAHA

"...The ethical debate over the decision to drop the atomic bomb will never be resolved. The bombs did, however, bring an end to the most destructive war in history..."

The Decision to Drop the Bomb [ushistory.org]

---

"...Although in later decades there was considerable debate about whether the bombings were ethically justified, virtually all of America’s political and military leadership, as well as most of those involved in the atomic bomb project, believed at the time that Truman’s decision was correct..."

The decision to use the atomic bomb​

---

"...Truman faced almost no pressure whatever to reexamine his own inclinations..."

The decision to use the atomic bomb​

---

"...all the evidence available to Washington indicated that Japan planned to fight to the end. Throughout July, intelligence reports claimed that troop strength on Kyushu was steadily escalating. Moreover, American leaders learned that Japan was seeking to open talks with the Soviet Union in the hopes of making a deal that would forestall Soviet entry into the Pacific war..."

The decision to use the atomic bomb​

 

[Vegasgiants]

I dont think anything we say here will change your mind

and we have said a lot

hopefully this information will not be wiped from the internet leaving only old books tucked away somewhere for future Americans to learn from

And I dont think anything said here will change your mind.


You know that is not the point of this....right?


This is just for fun


But if I got strong evidence I would concede. I have before.


I just havent seen any here

 

[Mushroom]

I dont think anything we say here will change your mind

Nothing will. He is a bigot who hates the military, and only seems to drag them out when they support his beliefs.

Laughingly, even when they then go against his beliefs at a later time.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Nothing will. He is a bigot who hates the military, and only seems to drag them out when they support his beliefs.

Laughingly, even when they then go against his beliefs at a later time.

There it is. The personal attack concession used when your argument fails

Nobody in my battalion would ever say I hated the military. I loved it! Lol


My favorite part. Lol

 

[ding]

And I dont think anything said here will change your mind.


You know that is not the point of this....right?


This is just for fun


But if I got strong evidence I would concede. I have before.


I just havent seen any here

“This second demonstration of the power of the atomic bomb apparently threw Tokyo into a panic, for the next morning brought the first indication that the Japanese Empire was ready to surrender,” Truman later wrote in his memoirs. On August 15, Emperor Hirohito announced Japan’s unconditional surrender, bringing World War II to a close.

According to Truman and others in his administration, the use of the atomic bomb was intended to cut the war in the Pacific short, avoiding a U.S. invasion of Japan and saving hundreds of thousands of American lives.

Hiroshima, Then Nagasaki: Why the US Deployed the Second A-Bomb | HISTORY

The explicit reason was to swiftly end the war with Japan. But it was also intended to send a message to the Soviets.

www.history.com

 

[ding]

And I dont think anything said here will change your mind.


You know that is not the point of this....right?


This is just for fun


But if I got strong evidence I would concede. I have before.


I just havent seen any here

There is probably no more controversial issue in 20th-century American history than President Harry S. Truman's decision to drop the atomic bomb on Japan. Many historians argue that it was necessary to end the war and that in fact it saved lives, both Japanese and American, by avoiding a land invasion of Japan that might have cost hundreds of thousands of lives. Other historians argue that Japan would have surrendered even without the use of the atomic bomb and that in fact Truman and his advisors used the bomb only in an effort to intimidate the Soviet Union. The United States did know from intercepted messages between Tokyo and Moscow that the Japanese were seeking a conditional surrender. American policy-makers, however, were not inclined to accept a Japanese "surrender" that left its military dictatorship intact and even possibly allowed it to retain some of its wartime conquests. Further, American leaders were anxious to end the war as soon as possible. It is important to remember that July-August 1945 was no bloodless period of negotiation. In fact, there were still no overt negotiations at all. The United States continued to suffer casualties in late July and early August 1945, especially from Japanese submarines and suicidal "kamikaze" attacks using aircraft and midget submarines. (One example of this is the loss of the Indianapolis, which was sunk by a Japanese submarine on July 29, just days after delivering "Little Boy" to Tinian. Of its crew of 1,199, only 316 sailors survived.) The people of Japan, however, were suffering far more by this time. Air raids and naval bombardment of Japan were a daily occurrence, and the first signs of starvation were already beginning to show.

The only alternative to the atomic bomb that Truman and his advisors felt was certain to lead to a Japanese surrender was an invasion of the Japanese home islands. Plans were already well-advanced for this, with the initial landings set for the fall and winter of 1945-1946. No one knew how many lives would be lost in an invasion, American, Allied, and Japanese, but the recent seizure of the island of Okinawa provided a ghastly clue. The campaign to take the small island had taken over ten weeks, and the fighting had resulted in the deaths of over 12,000 Americans, 100,000 Japanese, and perhaps another 100,000 native Okinawans.

As with many people, Truman was shocked by the enormous losses suffered at Okinawa. American intelligence reports indicated (correctly) that, although Japan could no longer meaningfully project its power overseas, it retained an army of two million soldiers and about 10,000 aircraft -- half of them kamikazes -- for the final defense of the homeland. (During postwar studies the United States learned that the Japanese had correctly anticipated where in Kyushu the initial landings would have taken place.) Although Truman hoped that the atomic bomb might give the United States an edge in postwar diplomacy, the prospect of avoiding another year of bloody warfare in the end may well have figured most importantly in his decision to drop the atomic bomb on Japan.

Manhattan Project: Potsdam and the Final Decision to Use the Bomb, July 1945

 

[Vegasgiants]

I dont think anything we say here will change your mind

and we have said a lot

hopefully this information will not be wiped from the internet leaving only old books tucked away somewhere for future Americans to learn from

At least you have generally tried to be polite and use facts in your debate

Better than most here

 

[ding]

And I dont think anything said here will change your mind.


You know that is not the point of this....right?


This is just for fun


But if I got strong evidence I would concede. I have before.


I just havent seen any here

“He didn’t want to have to do it but he felt that he had to, to stop the war and to save both American and Japanese lives. The reports they were getting were that, in a land invasion of the Japanese main islands, the Japanese were building up forces to resist. Now we know that the Japanese knew where we planned to land and they were massing troops.”

'He felt he had to do it': Truman's grandson on bombing Hiroshima

Seventy-five years after the US president’s decision opened the nuclear age, Clifton Daniel is still grappling with his legacy

www.theguardian.com

 

[Mac-7]

And I dont think anything said here will change your mind.


You know that is not the point of this....right?


This is just for fun


But if I got strong evidence I would concede. I have before.


I just havent seen any here

I respectfully disagree that this is for fun

And I take defending my country’s honor very seriously

most of revisionist history is designed to break our bond with the nation and replace pride with shame

which really offends me

but if Eisenhower can question our decision to drop the bomb so can you

 

[Vegasgiants]

This policy of indiscriminate murder to shorten the war was considered to be a crime. In the Pacific war under our consideration, if there was anything approaching what is indicated in the above letter of the German Emperor, it is the decision coming from the Allied powers to use the bomb. Future generations will judge this dire decision ... If any indiscriminate destruction of civilian life and property is still illegal in warfare, then, in the Pacific War, this decision to use the atom bomb is the only near approach to the directives of the German Emperor during the first World War and of the Nazi leaders during the second World War.

 

[Vegasgiants]

I respectfully disagree that this is for fun

I take defending my country’s honor very seriously

most of revisionist history is designed to break our bond with the nation and replace pride with shame

which really offends me

but if Eisenhower can question our decision to drop the bomb so can you

As you wish. No ones mind here is changed....that much is crystal clear

I defended our country too once....and it wasnt in a forum.

 

[ding]

And I dont think anything said here will change your mind.


You know that is not the point of this....right?


This is just for fun


But if I got strong evidence I would concede. I have before.


I just havent seen any here

The Allies desperately wanted to avoid invading Japan. Our anticipated death toll was north of 100,000 Allied soldiers and sailors, and in fact every Purple Heart medal actually awarded through the Persian Gulf War came from the never-needed stock ordered for the invasion of Kyushu. The battle for Okinawa showed the Allies that Japan would struggle until the last civilian was killed.

The destruction of Hiroshima should have brought an immediate Japanese surrender, but it did not. Three days later Nagasaki was obliterated. It was a strategic city, a major port and home to the great shipyard where the Musashi, one of the largest battleships in history, was built. It had other factories making steel, arms, ordnance and electrical equipment. As at Hiroshima, small machine shops essential to the large factories were embedded in the surrounding neighborhoods where the workers lived.

If the destruction of Nagasaki didn't end the war, a third atomic bomb was ready for shipment to the Pacific Theater for use on the nineteenth of August. Truman ordered a halt to the shipment, a hiatus to see what the Japanese would do. Conventional bombing was also interrupted. More nuclear weapons were being built at a rate of at least three bombs a month. If Olympic had faltered, several would have been available for use in November.

Nagasaki gave rise to urgent meetings with the emperor in attendance and, most extraordinarily, intervening. On the morning of August 10 Japan notified the Allied governments that it would accept the Potsdam terms with "the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler." After accepting additional points demanded by the West, in particular a requirement that the emperor be subordinate to General Douglas MacArthur, the Japanese civilian government surrendered.

But the Japanese military continued to fight, so conventional strategic bombing resumed on August 14. Still more meetings took place in the Imperial Palace. Late on the evening of the fourteenth a weeping Hirohito ordered an end. The next day, and despite threats of a coup by the Army, the Japanese people heard the voice of their emperor announcing the nation's capitulation. Hirohito explained that the "enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb." The Soviet invasion did not rate a mention.

The butcher's account was marked "Closed."

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-08-07/truman-was-right-to-drop-the-atomic-bomb

 

[Vegasgiants]

The very day after the atomic bomb hit Hiroshima, the personal pilot of General Douglas MacArthur, commander of Allied forces in the Pacific, recorded in his diary that MacArthur was "appalled and depressed by this Frankenstein monster."