The Obamacare Conundrum

[Lumpy 1]

Not at all sure how you managed to reach that conclusion. Could you please show me how you did reach it so that I correct any mistakes that I have made in the OP? Thank you.

I don't believe you are recognizing the damage Obamacare has already created and the damage it will continue to do to the US economy. The American don't deserve to be used as an experiment and a bi-partisan plan as opposed to an exclusively Democrat forced feeding plan would have been far more desirable. Democrats seem to prefer to believe that it's Obamacare or nothing which to me is an obvious falsehood.

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

Do you really believe we need the monstrosity that is Obamacare to provide "pre-existing conditions" coverage, I don't?

The Founding Fathers took quite a few years after the American Revolution to establish the Constitution and the laws of the land in a far more bi-partisan way. They smartly worked out the possible kinks. I'm also pretty sure they knew what was "in it" before committing to it. To compare that to Obamacare is....., well, think about it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I don't believe you are recognizing the damage Obamacare has already created and the damage it will continue to do to the US economy. The American don't deserve to be used as an experiment and a bi-partisan plan as opposed to an exclusively Democrat forced feeding plan would have been far more desirable. Democrats seem to prefer to believe that it's Obamacare or nothing which to me is an obvious falsehood.

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

Do you really believe we need the monstrosity that is Obamacare to provide "pre-existing conditions" coverage, I don't?

The Founding Fathers took quite a few years after the American Revolution to establish the Constitution and the laws of the land in a far more bi-partisan way. They smartly worked out the possible kinks. I'm also pretty sure they knew what was "in it" before committing to it. To compare that to Obamacare is....., well, think about it.

As far as the Constitution goes slavery wasn't a "kink" that was "worked out". It was a major compromise that was made in order to form "a more perfect union".

The Dems took the Republican healthcare reform plan from 1993 which is a great way to start off in a bipartisan manner. Then they accepted no fewer than 166 Republican amendments to that plan so the Republicans knew exactly what was in it all along.

Since we did not have anything to handle "pre-existing conditions" and nothing else was offered there was no other option available. To paraphrase Rumsfeld you go with what you have rather than what is perfect.

 

[Lumpy 1]

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

Do you really believe we need the monstrosity that is Obamacare to provide "pre-existing conditions" coverage, I don't?

The Founding Fathers took quite a few years after the American Revolution to establish the Constitution and the laws of the land in a far more bi-partisan way. They smartly worked out the possible kinks. I'm also pretty sure they knew what was "in it" before committing to it. To compare that to Obamacare is....., well, think about it.

As far as the Constitution goes slavery wasn't a "kink" that was "worked out". It was a major compromise that was made in order to form "a more perfect union".

The Dems took the Republican healthcare reform plan from 1993 which is a great way to start off in a bipartisan manner. Then they accepted no fewer than 166 Republican amendments to that plan so the Republicans knew exactly what was in it all along.

Since we did not have anything to handle "pre-existing conditions" and nothing else was offered there was no other option available. To paraphrase Rumsfeld you go with what you have rather than what is perfect.

There are over 20 millions slaves in the world as we speak, it's a reality that's hard to extinguish, I'm thinking.

"to that plan" interesting... over 25 years and nothing had changed, no need to have Republican legislation I guess.

"pre-existing conditions" could have been worked out on it's own, I'm thinking.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do you really believe we need the monstrosity that is Obamacare to provide "pre-existing conditions" coverage, I don't?

The Founding Fathers took quite a few years after the American Revolution to establish the Constitution and the laws of the land in a far more bi-partisan way. They smartly worked out the possible kinks. I'm also pretty sure they knew what was "in it" before committing to it. To compare that to Obamacare is....., well, think about it.

As far as the Constitution goes slavery wasn't a "kink" that was "worked out". It was a major compromise that was made in order to form "a more perfect union".

The Dems took the Republican healthcare reform plan from 1993 which is a great way to start off in a bipartisan manner. Then they accepted no fewer than 166 Republican amendments to that plan so the Republicans knew exactly what was in it all along.

Since we did not have anything to handle "pre-existing conditions" and nothing else was offered there was no other option available. To paraphrase Rumsfeld you go with what you have rather than what is perfect.

There are over 20 millions slaves in the world as we speak, it's a reality that's hard to extinguish, I'm thinking.

"to that plan" interesting... over 25 years and nothing had changed, no need to have Republican legislation I guess.

"pre-existing conditions" could have been worked out on it's own, I'm thinking.

It was far more than just the "pre-existing conditions". There were the "life time caps" which would mean that you or a loved one might be denied treatment necessary to stay alive because your medical bills went over some arbitrary limit set by some HMO bean counter AKA the real "death panels". The whole system was spiraling out of control and taking an ever larger slice out of the economy. Corporations could no longer be competitive when the same products could be made in Canada by union workers who had universal healthcare.

Not to diminish slavery but 20 million out of 7 billion is 0.003% of the world's population. In the 1800's census data shows that about 15% of the US population were slaves.

 

[Lumpy 1]

As far as the Constitution goes slavery wasn't a "kink" that was "worked out". It was a major compromise that was made in order to form "a more perfect union".

The Dems took the Republican healthcare reform plan from 1993 which is a great way to start off in a bipartisan manner. Then they accepted no fewer than 166 Republican amendments to that plan so the Republicans knew exactly what was in it all along.

Since we did not have anything to handle "pre-existing conditions" and nothing else was offered there was no other option available. To paraphrase Rumsfeld you go with what you have rather than what is perfect.

There are over 20 millions slaves in the world as we speak, it's a reality that's hard to extinguish, I'm thinking.

"to that plan" interesting... over 25 years and nothing had changed, no need to have Republican legislation I guess.

"pre-existing conditions" could have been worked out on it's own, I'm thinking.

It was far more than just the "pre-existing conditions". There were the "life time caps" which would mean that you or a loved one might be denied treatment necessary to stay alive because your medical bills went over some arbitrary limit set by some HMO bean counter AKA the real "death panels". The whole system was spiraling out of control and taking an ever larger slice out of the economy. Corporations could no longer be competitive when the same products could be made in Canada by union workers who had universal healthcare.

Not to diminish slavery but 20 million out of 7 billion is 0.003% of the world's population. In the 1800's census data shows that about 15% of the US population were slaves.

You don't believe Obamacare will ever deny benefits on a cost effective basis?

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Who suffers while the experiment fails and what are the lasting consequences?


I'd feel better if all the signs of failure didn't exist..

The lasting consequences can't be any worse than what we have had. I again repeat: My late spouse died after 3.5 years of chemo therapy and surgery. Empire Blue fought us every fucking inch of the way. Total bill: $1,300,000.00 Think it could get much worse? Bring it on or STFU.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Who suffers while the experiment fails and what are the lasting consequences?


I'd feel better if all the signs of failure didn't exist..

The lasting consequences can't be any worse than what we have had. I again repeat: My late spouse died after 3.5 years of chemo therapy and surgery. Empire Blue fought us every fucking inch of the way. Total bill: $1,300,000.00 Think it could get much worse? Bring it on or STFU.

Sorry for your loss....

You don't believe Obamacare will deny any benefits and Obamacare will be accepted everywhere?

My Aunt died of ovarian cancer not long ago. If she had received treatment she probably had a fighting chance of survival, she was refused treatment in the Canadian medical care system...

 

[Derideo_Te]

There are over 20 millions slaves in the world as we speak, it's a reality that's hard to extinguish, I'm thinking.

"to that plan" interesting... over 25 years and nothing had changed, no need to have Republican legislation I guess.

"pre-existing conditions" could have been worked out on it's own, I'm thinking.

It was far more than just the "pre-existing conditions". There were the "life time caps" which would mean that you or a loved one might be denied treatment necessary to stay alive because your medical bills went over some arbitrary limit set by some HMO bean counter AKA the real "death panels". The whole system was spiraling out of control and taking an ever larger slice out of the economy. Corporations could no longer be competitive when the same products could be made in Canada by union workers who had universal healthcare.

Not to diminish slavery but 20 million out of 7 billion is 0.003% of the world's population. In the 1800's census data shows that about 15% of the US population were slaves.

You don't believe Obamacare will ever deny benefits on a cost effective basis?

Oddly enough Obamacare is doing the opposite because they have made the case that it is cheaper and more cost effective for preventative treatment over expensive cures. That is why all annual physicals and preventative care are now free of charge.

 

[Lumpy 1]

It was far more than just the "pre-existing conditions". There were the "life time caps" which would mean that you or a loved one might be denied treatment necessary to stay alive because your medical bills went over some arbitrary limit set by some HMO bean counter AKA the real "death panels". The whole system was spiraling out of control and taking an ever larger slice out of the economy. Corporations could no longer be competitive when the same products could be made in Canada by union workers who had universal healthcare.

Not to diminish slavery but 20 million out of 7 billion is 0.003% of the world's population. In the 1800's census data shows that about 15% of the US population were slaves.

You don't believe Obamacare will ever deny benefits on a cost effective basis?

Oddly enough Obamacare is doing the opposite because they have made the case that it is cheaper and more cost effective for preventative treatment over expensive cures. That is why all annual physicals and preventative care are now free of charge.

Nothing is free...someone always pays, you would rather it wasn't you, is all.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Not at all sure how you managed to reach that conclusion. Could you please show me how you did reach it so that I correct any mistakes that I have made in the OP? Thank you.

I don't believe you are recognizing the damage Obamacare has already created and the damage it will continue to do to the US economy. The American don't deserve to be used as an experiment and a bi-partisan plan as opposed to an exclusively Democrat forced feeding plan would have been far more desirable. Democrats seem to prefer to believe that it's Obamacare or nothing which to me is an obvious falsehood.

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

And it would be much more appropriate for republicans to work with other lawmakers to improve what was originally their plan, rather than destroy the ACA and start over.

It’s certainly not worth shutting down the government and derailing the economic recovery.

That would clearly be madness.

 

[Trajan]

Not at all sure how you managed to reach that conclusion. Could you please show me how you did reach it so that I correct any mistakes that I have made in the OP? Thank you.

I don't believe you are recognizing the damage Obamacare has already created and the damage it will continue to do to the US economy. The American don't deserve to be used as an experiment and a bi-partisan plan as opposed to an exclusively Democrat forced feeding plan would have been far more desirable. Democrats seem to prefer to believe that it's Obamacare or nothing which to me is an obvious falsehood.

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated.

like what?

 

[Derideo_Te]

You don't believe Obamacare will ever deny benefits on a cost effective basis?

Oddly enough Obamacare is doing the opposite because they have made the case that it is cheaper and more cost effective for preventative treatment over expensive cures. That is why all annual physicals and preventative care are now free of charge.

Nothing is free...someone always pays, you would rather it wasn't you, is all.

Yes, you are correct that someone always pays, Lumpy. But I would rather pay for your annual physical where your doctor can make sure that you are staying healthy than to have to pick up the tab because you ended up in the ER instead. This is just my pragmatic fiscal conservatism on display. Covering the cost of your annual physical for the rest of your natural life is cheaper than a single ER visit. The alternative is that my premiums are going to increase because a whole lot of people are going to end up in those ER's because they didn't see a doctor when it was early enough to prevent that from happening. I prefer the low cost option and so do the HMO's who are participating in Obamacare. This not only makes for good fiscal policy but it is good for the entire nation too. A healthy workforce has a lower overhead and is more productive. It's a win-win even if it means I am paying for someone else's visit to the doctor. I still come out ahead in the long run and so do you.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I don't believe you are recognizing the damage Obamacare has already created and the damage it will continue to do to the US economy. The American don't deserve to be used as an experiment and a bi-partisan plan as opposed to an exclusively Democrat forced feeding plan would have been far more desirable. Democrats seem to prefer to believe that it's Obamacare or nothing which to me is an obvious falsehood.

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated.

like what?

Health Care Reform Timeline

Why Does the Health Insurance Industry Need ObamaCare's Reforms?

Why reform the healthcare system? Before we get to the health care reform timeline, here are some reasons ObamaCare health care reform was signed into law.

• PBS reports that 44 million Americans are currently without health insurance. Part of this is due to the extraordinary costs of quality health insurance in the US. HealthCare reform ensures these Americans have access to health care.

• The Medicaid part D prescription drug "donut hole" coverage gap was leaving seniors unable to afford their medication or paying out of pocket.

• Government funding for private Medicare Advantage plans is costing the taxpayer money, it was supposed to save the taxpayer money when going on the private market. Obama's Health Care Reform reigns in the wasteful spending.

•Insurance companies could deny you for pre-existing conditions or drop you when you get sick.

• Insurance companies could drop you for being sick

• Insurance companies had no limits on raising your premiums.

• Insurance companies could stop treating you when you exceed your annual limit.

•Millions of people are too poor to afford health insurance, yet make too much to qualify for Medicaid.

• Preventive measures and wellness visits were not covered adequately, reforming this will save millions of lives and uncountable health care costs.

 

[peach174]

So according to the latest meme that is making the rounds the more that people are finding out about Obamacare the less they like it.

If that is true then why are the far right so determined to kill it now?

From a political standpoint doesn't it make more sense to allow it to become law and have everyone dislike it so much that the GOP will win the 2014 and 2016 elections by landslides on the platform of repealing Obamacare?

What am I missing here? Isn't the whole political game played by using your opponent's voting record against them during the election? Any candidate who voted for Obamacare will be toast and every candidate who opposed it will be guaranteed a seat in a new Republican veto proof majority in both houses.

So the conundrum seems to be why are the far right so determined to hurt themselves politically by insisting upon defunding Obamacare to the point where they will damage the economy and hurt hardworking Americans.

It seems so bizarre that they would be ignoring the big picture. Would anyone care to explain why it is better to risk damaging the GOP brand now than it is to wait another 13 months and reap the rewards of sweeping victories?

Because republicans know the law will likely be successful, with millions of Americans having access to affordable healthcare, and for a significant number of Americans, having healthcare for the first time.

And Americans are responding to the lies the right contrive with regard to the ACA, once the law is in full effect next year, Americans will experience first hand the truth concerning the ACA and realize that the lies they were told by the right were indeed lies.

It will then be too late to ‘defund’ or ‘repeal’ the ACA by November 2014.

There’s also the intense disdain many on the right have for the president, where ‘getting rid’ of the ACA would be the next best thing to ‘getting rid’ of Obama.

Understand, of course, that republican/conservative opposition to the ACA is purely partisan, having nothing to do with the merits of the Act itself.

It is the people themselves who don't like it. It is not partisan. Look at the polls, the Majority of the people do not want it.
Republicans make up only 37% and 54% of the people oppose it.
They are not lies.
The people are experiencing the effects of it right now before it's implemented.
They are getting their hours cut, they are losing the good health insurance that they had.
They are losing the Doctors that they had. We had that happen to us. The new Doctor that we are seeing now is running his office like an assembly line. It's awful.

 

[dblack]

The real conundrum of ACA is that it unmasks Democrats as unbridled corporatists. It's that, in my view more than anything else, the fuels its unfavorable reception. People smell the swindle in this.

 

[Antares]

The only "damage" I see is that children who were previously denied coverage for "pre-existing conditions" like Cystic Fibrosis are now able to have their medical expenses covered instead of their parents going bankrupt trying to keep them alive. That kind of "damage" I can live with.

As far as Americans deserving to be "used as an experiment" goes that is exactly what the Founding Fathers did originally. The great experiment of We the People governing ourselves as opposed to being governed by a monarchy. Have we made mistakes? You betcha! Is this one of them. Am I willing to give it a chance? Why not? Some work and some don't but so far on balance I am happy that many of the excesses of the old system have been remediated. Could it be better. Absolutely and I am more than willing to work to make it a whole lot better than it currently is now.

like what?

Health Care Reform Timeline

Why Does the Health Insurance Industry Need ObamaCare's Reforms?

Why reform the healthcare system? Before we get to the health care reform timeline, here are some reasons ObamaCare health care reform was signed into law.

• PBS reports that 44 million Americans are currently without health insurance. Part of this is due to the extraordinary costs of quality health insurance in the US. HealthCare reform ensures these Americans have access to health care.

• The Medicaid part D prescription drug "donut hole" coverage gap was leaving seniors unable to afford their medication or paying out of pocket.

• Government funding for private Medicare Advantage plans is costing the taxpayer money, it was supposed to save the taxpayer money when going on the private market. Obama's Health Care Reform reigns in the wasteful spending.

•Insurance companies could deny you for pre-existing conditions or drop you when you get sick.

• Insurance companies could drop you for being sick

• Insurance companies had no limits on raising your premiums.

• Insurance companies could stop treating you when you exceed your annual limit.

•Millions of people are too poor to afford health insurance, yet make too much to qualify for Medicaid.

• Preventive measures and wellness visits were not covered adequately, reforming this will save millions of lives and uncountable health care costs.

• The Medicaid part D prescription drug "donut hole" coverage gap was leaving seniors unable to afford their medication or paying out of pocket.

Um....so tell me...when is the Donut Hole closed? (Don't google)

• Government funding for private Medicare Advantage plans is costing the taxpayer money, it was supposed to save the taxpayer money when going on the private market. Obama's Health Care Reform reigns in the wasteful spending.

So....are the MA PLans gone?

drop you when you get sick.

No, not unless fraud had been comitted by non-disclosure.

• Insurance companies had no limits on raising your premiums.

Yes they did, ALL rate increases had to be filed with the DOI by May before the year they wanted them to go into effect.

• Insurance companies could stop treating you when you exceed your annual limit.

VERY few policies had "yearly limits".
All had lifetime limits.

•Millions of people are too poor to afford health insurance, yet make too much to qualify for Medicaid.

Millions still make too much to qualify for any subsidies.....and YOU assume that that 300 premium raise won't hurt them.

• Preventive measures and wellness visits were not covered adequately, reforming this will save millions of lives and uncountable health care costs.

True.

 

[MeBelle]

So according to the latest meme that is making the rounds the more that people are finding out about Obamacare the less they like it.

If that is true then why are the far right so determined to kill it now?

From a political standpoint doesn't it make more sense to allow it to become law and have everyone dislike it so much that the GOP will win the 2014 and 2016 elections by landslides on the platform of repealing Obamacare?

What am I missing here? Isn't the whole political game played by using your opponent's voting record against them during the election? Any candidate who voted for Obamacare will be toast and every candidate who opposed it will be guaranteed a seat in a new Republican veto proof majority in both houses.

So the conundrum seems to be why are the far right so determined to hurt themselves politically by insisting upon defunding Obamacare to the point where they will damage the economy and hurt hardworking Americans.

It seems so bizarre that they would be ignoring the big picture. Would anyone care to explain why it is better to risk damaging the GOP brand now than it is to wait another 13 months and reap the rewards of sweeping victories?

This:

Bronze is not a catastrophic plan.

I checked some numbers real quick.
For a real family of five that I know, the cheapest bronze plan would cost $26,980 before any benefits are paid out.

I then went to the cheapest platinum plan. Cost: $25,240.

Neither of those numbers come even close to what that family currently pays.

Dental not included.
Eye care not included.
Formularies not included.

The families 'health insurance' just doubled!

Let's not even talk about the number of Docs dropping MediCal patients.

Using this tool provided be Greenbeard:
Get Covered | Covered California?

In my above post the family currently pays approx $12K per year with pretax dollars. She's an RN, he works for AT&T.

This family will be having an economic meltdown after barely seeing topside of the last economic meltdown.

There is nothing to cut out of their budget.
They will go into debt buying health insurance.

In order to verify your link can you please provide the zip code, total income and ages of the family members. Thank you.

Ummm, sure! As soon as you post the same about yourself here!

 

[Derideo_Te]

This:



Using this tool provided be Greenbeard:
Get Covered | Covered California?

In my above post the family currently pays approx $12K per year with pretax dollars. She's an RN, he works for AT&T.

This family will be having an economic meltdown after barely seeing topside of the last economic meltdown.

There is nothing to cut out of their budget.
They will go into debt buying health insurance.

In order to verify your link can you please provide the zip code, total income and ages of the family members. Thank you.

Ummm, sure! As soon as you post the same about yourself here!

Hmmmm, I was under the impression we were just talking about some anonymous "family" here. But since that is not the case I could just enter any CA zip code and keep on entering annual salary amounts until I reach the figure you are claiming.

By choosing 94144 since SF is one of the most expensive places to live and randomly entering ages of 45 and 42 for the adults with 3 children I tried a range of incomes from $100k to $150k. At the lower end there was a govt subsidy eligibility and at the upper end the most expensive Platinum plan only came to $23k. At no stage did the cheapest Bronze plan exceed $13k pa but at the bottom end it was just over $5k.

So your figures don't match what your link is providing.