The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Slyhunter]

Raze Gaza to the ground. Seal their borders and let them starve. They get nothing until they beg for conditions of surrender.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every one had citizenship to some entity somewhere. The Allied Powers wanted to eliminate the category now called today: "Stateless People."

[
Interesting. That means they got Palestinian citizenship after WWI.
So, what is their relationship with the Israeli occupation. There have been problems there for years.

(COMMENT)

Citizenship after WWI was to the Government of Palestine (The British Mandate Administrator).
• CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF STATELESS PERSONS •

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Every one had citizenship to some entity somewhere. The Allied Powers wanted to eliminate the category now called today: "Stateless People."

[
Interesting. That means they got Palestinian citizenship after WWI.
So, what is their relationship with the Israeli occupation. There have been problems there for years.

(COMMENT)

Citizenship after WWI was to the Government of Palestine (The British Mandate Administrator).
• CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF STATELESS PERSONS •

Most Respectfully,
R

The Mandate was not a place. It could have no citizens.

 

[Shusha]

You were not given rights to Palestine, you took them.

And this is where you are entirely wrong. Rights are inherent. Indigenous peoples have inherent, inviolable rights to sovereignty on their historical homeland. They don't have to be granted. They only have to be recognized. And they WERE recognized for the Jewish people in the Mandate for Palestine.

And there is absolutely no argument that you could make which would exclude the Jewish people from these rights that can not also be used to exclude Arab Palestinian rights. No matter what argument you make it will also apply to the Jewish people.

Indigenous? Jewish people.
People of long history? Jewish people.
People with continued presence? Jewish people.
People removed from their land and wish to return? Jewish people.
People who migrated there? Jewish people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You were not given rights to Palestine, you took them.

And this is where you are entirely wrong. Rights are inherent. Indigenous peoples have inherent, inviolable rights to sovereignty on their historical homeland. They don't have to be granted. They only have to be recognized. And they WERE recognized for the Jewish people in the Mandate for Palestine.

And there is absolutely no argument that you could make which would exclude the Jewish people from these rights that can not also be used to exclude Arab Palestinian rights. No matter what argument you make it will also apply to the Jewish people.

Indigenous? Jewish people.
People of long history? Jewish people.
People with continued presence? Jewish people.
People removed from their land and wish to return? Jewish people.
People who migrated there? Jewish people.

Where does it say that you can kick out the local citizens and steal their land?

Link?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Read the entire sentence. British Mandate Administrator (a person who performs official duties in some sphere, in this case, the High Commissioner.) I recommend that your go for the content and the meaning and not quibble (argue or raise objections about a trivial matter).

Did you deduce the "content." IN the first decades of the 20th century, "citizenship" was about the state having both responsibility and jurisdiction over the individual. You are like so many people, you think the citizenship confers some special right. No! It is about government authorities putting people in certain boxes for various purposes (taxes, labor force, military eligible, aged, etc, etc, etc).

vr
R

Every one had citizenship to some entity somewhere. The Allied Powers wanted to eliminate the category now called today: "Stateless People."

[
Interesting. That means they got Palestinian citizenship after WWI.
So, what is their relationship with the Israeli occupation. There have been problems there for years.

(COMMENT)

Citizenship after WWI was to the Government of Palestine (The British Mandate Administrator).
• CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF STATELESS PERSONS •

Most Respectfully,
R

The Mandate was not a place. It could have no citizens.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Read the entire sentence. British Mandate Administrator (a person who performs official duties in some sphere, in this case, the High Commissioner.) I recommend that your go for the content and the meaning and not quibble (argue or raise objections about a trivial matter).

Did you deduce the "content." IN the first decades of the 20th century, "citizenship" was about the state having both responsibility and jurisdiction over the individual. You are like so many people, you think the citizenship confers some special right. No! It is about government authorities putting people in certain boxes for various purposes (taxes, labor force, military eligible, aged, etc, etc, etc).

vr
R

Every one had citizenship to some entity somewhere. The Allied Powers wanted to eliminate the category now called today: "Stateless People."

[
Interesting. That means they got Palestinian citizenship after WWI.
So, what is their relationship with the Israeli occupation. There have been problems there for years.

(COMMENT)

Citizenship after WWI was to the Government of Palestine (The British Mandate Administrator).
• CONVENTION RELATING TO THE STATUS OF STATELESS PERSONS •

Most Respectfully,
R

The Mandate was not a place. It could have no citizens.

States and governments are the product of the peoples rights not a prerequisite.

 

[Shusha]

Where does it say that you can kick out the local citizens and steal their land?

Where did I say that you could?

 

[Billo_Really]

And this is where you are entirely wrong. Rights are inherent. Indigenous peoples have inherent, inviolable rights to sovereignty on their historical homeland. They don't have to be granted. They only have to be recognized. And they WERE recognized for the Jewish people in the Mandate for Palestine.

And there is absolutely no argument that you could make which would exclude the Jewish people from these rights that can not also be used to exclude Arab Palestinian rights. No matter what argument you make it will also apply to the Jewish people.

Indigenous? Jewish people.
People of long history? Jewish people.
People with continued presence? Jewish people.
People removed from their land and wish to return? Jewish people.
People who migrated there? Jewish people.

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

You violated the Mandate, you violated the rights of the non-Jewish population, which was the majority at that time; and you've been violating human rights and dignity ever since.

You are an evil, apartheid nation, with no regard for human life. And your actions have completely shit on the memories of everyone who lost their lives in the Holocaust.

 

[Slyhunter]

And this is where you are entirely wrong. Rights are inherent. Indigenous peoples have inherent, inviolable rights to sovereignty on their historical homeland. They don't have to be granted. They only have to be recognized. And they WERE recognized for the Jewish people in the Mandate for Palestine.

And there is absolutely no argument that you could make which would exclude the Jewish people from these rights that can not also be used to exclude Arab Palestinian rights. No matter what argument you make it will also apply to the Jewish people.

Indigenous? Jewish people.
People of long history? Jewish people.
People with continued presence? Jewish people.
People removed from their land and wish to return? Jewish people.
People who migrated there? Jewish people.

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

You violated the Mandate, you violated the rights of the non-Jewish population, which was the majority at that time; and you've been violating human rights and dignity ever since.

You are an evil, apartheid nation, with no regard for human life. And your actions have completely shit on the memories of everyone who lost their lives in the Holocaust.

blah blah blah. All this bickering would be over with if the Jews would stop pussy footing around and fight a real war against their enemy. Kill on sight until they surrender unconditionally or leave whichever comes first. All those terrorist crowding the fence should've been machine gun downed, not pot shotted.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'm not sure where you get this unsophisticated views. But on the level "we" (you and I and many people here) converse, you need to crank up your perceptions as to what these terms mean.

States and governments are the product of the peoples rights not a prerequisite.

(COMMENT)

You know that "States and governments are the product of the people's rights." For ≈ 5000 years, the most common form a government took was a monarchy. And in an absolute monarchy, the rights of the people are "granted" by the sovereign; policed through his command of power.

A "State" is what has capacity. That capacity is expressed by the "power:" the power held by one (AKA the absolute sovereign), by a few (anywhere from a ruling elite to chambers of the → aristocracy), or by many (anywhere from a republic to a democracy). And there are even more complex developments in "governments" (the established organizational construct) which is necessary for most effective control and operation of the "state."

You know from experience, that the rights of the citizens in America, is radically different than the rights of the citizens of Iran. (Used to demonstrate the spectrum of civil, political, and religious rights.) What we call inherent rights in America, may not be inherent rights in the 49 dictatorships in the world (19 in Sub-Saharan Africa, 12 in the Middle East and North Africa, 8 in Asia-Pacific, 7 in Eurasia 2 in Americas and 1 in Europe).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Billo_Really, Sour Grapes, et al,

It makes absolutely no difference today, on the accuracy of your tear-jerking criticism of the decisions made between 1918 (Armistice of Mudros when the Ottoman Empire surrendered) and 1949 (when the four Israel-Arab took effect).

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

You violated the Mandate, you violated the rights of the non-Jewish population, which was the majority at that time; and you've been violating human rights and dignity ever since.

You are an evil, apartheid nation, with no regard for human life. And your actions have completely shit on the memories of everyone who lost their lives in the Holocaust.

(COMMENT)

No criticism you make today, makes any different on the effective control the Israelis not maintain. There is no practical way of giving a territorial advantage to the Hostile Arab Palestinians that have a standing policy:

ψ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

ψ Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.

ψ The unity of the Palestinian land: The West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip and the occupied land of 1948, one land with all its geography, it is one unit, not part separated from the other, which is a whole nation of the Palestinian people.

ψ Hamas and its allies told the protesters that the “March of Return” marked the beginning of the “liberation of all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River.” In other words, the Palestinians were told that infiltrating the border with Israel would be the first step toward destroying Israel.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[theliq]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Billo_Really, Sour Grapes, et al,

It makes absolutely no difference today, on the accuracy of your tear-jerking criticism of the decisions made between 1918 (Armistice of Mudros when the Ottoman Empire surrendered) and 1949 (when the four Israel-Arab took effect).

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

You violated the Mandate, you violated the rights of the non-Jewish population, which was the majority at that time; and you've been violating human rights and dignity ever since.

You are an evil, apartheid nation, with no regard for human life. And your actions have completely shit on the memories of everyone who lost their lives in the Holocaust.

(COMMENT)

No criticism you make today, makes any different on the effective control the Israelis not maintain. There is no practical way of giving a territorial advantage to the Hostile Arab Palestinians that have a standing policy:

ψ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

ψ Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.

ψ The unity of the Palestinian land: The West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip and the occupied land of 1948, one land with all its geography, it is one unit, not part separated from the other, which is a whole nation of the Palestinian people.

ψ Hamas and its allies told the protesters that the “March of Return” marked the beginning of the “liberation of all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River.” In other words, the Palestinians were told that infiltrating the border with Israel would be the first step toward destroying Israel.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Really Rocco,your belief that a load of NON JEWISH converts,should have any claim to Palestine is in error...how can these Converts have any claim to this Land ?????only the Semitic Palestinians and Jew have claim to this Land....not some Gypo's from Central Asia and their decendents...to claim anything else is Bull...…..all Zionists should be returned to their Country of Origin and leave the Semitic Peoples to enjoy life....with respect...steven

 

[rylah]

I for one, do a lot of research around what is alleged that Israel has done or said about any event, as I did about the Phosphorus.

Interesting, what is the story about Nabi Saleh?

What would your research say?

Nabi Saleh is an exclusive settlement of the Tamimi tribe originating in Arabia.
The Tamimi tribe is centered mainly in Hebron,

Arab tradition says that the tribe descends from prophet's companion Tamim a-Deraei تميم الداري, who received a land deed from the prophet himself and later settled in the city.

While the Tamimi tribe has concentrated the Arab source of Hebron, there are testimonies of the people of Hebron themselves that half of the city origins are Kurdish.

The reason for this is the wars of Islam against the Crusaders. The war was not done by the Arabs but by the Kurds and the Turks (even before the Ottoman Empire) and the army of Salah al-Din al-Ayyubi was composed of a Kurdish command. After the conquest of the land, he transferred a large part of his army to Hebron in order to preserve the borders of the country from the Arab Bedouin. Within Hebron, the Arabs opposed the leadership of the Tamimi tribe, and what characterized the history of Hebron were the many wars between the Kurds and the Arabs.

If we go further back, the Nabi-Saleh settlement has it's roots in the city of Madaan-Saleh northern Arabia.

Interesting. That means they got Palestinian citizenship after WWI.

So, what is their relationship with the Israeli occupation. There have been problems there for years.

Yes everyone who lived in the land those days became subjects of a British govt.
The village was an insignificant settlement of mere 5 houses during the Arab Revolt.

Basically the family took part in the creation of 1st Pan-Arab secret society along with Arabs from Lebanon, Northern Syria and Iraq. Their aim was supporting the war effort of the Emir of Mecca, and creation of a unified Arab Empire on lands of all East-Asia, stretching from the Arabian peninsula to the Mediterranean.

Today the family is divided in their opinion on politics and future of the conflict:
* Tayysir Tamimi the Chief Sharia Judge appointed by Arafat holds radical religious views and frames the conflict as a war for Waqf lands to be ruled exclusively by Muslims , he was twice condemned by Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II.
* Bassem Tamimi and his family who take a more militant approach, participating in terror attacks and violent demonstration supported by the govt of Turkey.
* Sheikh Abdallah Tamimi of Hebron ( the head of the tribe) - condemns all Palestinian political fractions as radical anarchists, and supports Israeli sovereignty over Hebron.

 

[Shusha]

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

Again, the rights of an indigenous peoples are not GIVEN -- they are inherent, inviolable rights. Its not a grant, its only a recognition of inherent, inviolable rights.

In 1923 the rights of the Jewish people to the Mandate for Palestine were recognized by the international community and in law. Those rights are not conditional and those rights were not recognized for any other peoples.

 

[theliq]

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

Again, the rights of an indigenous peoples are not GIVEN -- they are inherent, inviolable rights. Its not a grant, its only a recognition of inherent, inviolable rights.

In 1923 the rights of the Jewish people to the Mandate for Palestine were recognized by the international community and in law. Those rights are not conditional and those rights were not recognized for any other peoples.

If you believe that,then why did the Zionist BRIBE some countries to vote on Israel's side in the UN 1948 vote???????

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ theliq, et al,

I'm not sure that you and I are in the same book, let alone on the same page.

Really Rocco,your belief that a load of NON JEWISH converts,should have any claim to Palestine is in error...how can these Converts have any claim to this Land ?????only the Semitic Palestinians and Jew have claim to this Land....not some Gypo's from Central Asia and their decendents...to claim anything else is Bull...…..all Zionists should be returned to their Country of Origin and leave the Semitic Peoples to enjoy life....with respect...steven

(COMMENT)

• I did not say that I had a: "belief that a load of NON JEWISH converts, should have any claim to Palestine"

✪ However the current territorial allocation came about, 70 years ago, because Article 16 passed the authority to the Allied Powers.
✪ The territorial allocation and the authority for allocation 70 years ago did not make a distinction between the various sects within the Jewish faith. And that distinction did not alter immigration or self-determination.
​

• The national liberation movement for the Jewish people is often referred to as Zionism. Zionism is not a faith, but an approach to immigration and settlement in Israel (the Jewish National Home).

• As to your comment that → "all Zionists should be returned to their Country of Origin" → is totally off kilter. The entire purpose of establishing a Jewish National Home was to get all Jewish people a place that they could land, a safe haven, to protect themselves from those anti-Jewish governments that would use the color of law to persecute the Jewish People; and to avoid another shameful case like the SS St Louis.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

RE: The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?
※→ Billo_Really, Sour Grapes, et al,

It makes absolutely no difference today, on the accuracy of your tear-jerking criticism of the decisions made between 1918 (Armistice of Mudros when the Ottoman Empire surrendered) and 1949 (when the four Israel-Arab took effect).

Those rights were recognized PROVIDED you did not prejudice the existing, indigenous, non-Jewish population. But you did. Then, as the British were leaving, you took even more land that you were originally given.

You violated the Mandate, you violated the rights of the non-Jewish population, which was the majority at that time; and you've been violating human rights and dignity ever since.

You are an evil, apartheid nation, with no regard for human life. And your actions have completely shit on the memories of everyone who lost their lives in the Holocaust.

(COMMENT)

No criticism you make today, makes any different on the effective control the Israelis not maintain. There is no practical way of giving a territorial advantage to the Hostile Arab Palestinians that have a standing policy:

ψ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

ψ Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, and the restoration of all the rights, together with, of course, all forms of political and diplomatic struggle including in the media, public and legal [spheres]; with the need to mobilize all the energies of the nation in the battle.

ψ The unity of the Palestinian land: The West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip and the occupied land of 1948, one land with all its geography, it is one unit, not part separated from the other, which is a whole nation of the Palestinian people.

ψ Hamas and its allies told the protesters that the “March of Return” marked the beginning of the “liberation of all of Palestine, from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River.” In other words, the Palestinians were told that infiltrating the border with Israel would be the first step toward destroying Israel.
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Really Rocco,your belief that a load of NON JEWISH converts,should have any claim to Palestine is in error...how can these Converts have any claim to this Land ?????only the Semitic Palestinians and Jew have claim to this Land....not some Gypo's from Central Asia and their decendents...to claim anything else is Bull...…..all Zionists should be returned to their Country of Origin and leave the Semitic Peoples to enjoy life....with respect...steven

Only Jews themselves get to decide who is part of their tribe.
Your opinions are meaningless.

Are You an Aborigine kangaroo,
or are You just parking Your racist ass on a foreign land without being called for?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where does it say that you can kick out the local citizens and steal their land?

Where did I say that you could?

That is what happened. You seem to agree with that.

 

[P F Tinmore]

ψ The unity of the Palestinian land: The West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip and the occupied land of 1948, one land with all its geography, it is one unit, not part separated from the other, which is a whole nation of the Palestinian people.

That is true. That is Palestinian land as defined by international borders. The Palestinians are citizens of their territory by treaty, by international and domestic law. With this comes the universal, inherent, inalienable rights.

1. The right to self determination without external interference.
2. The right to independence and sovereignty.
3. The right to territorial integrity.

Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. So, when the Palestinians make this claim it is in compliance with international law.

The Palestinians are not asking for anything special. They merely ask that their inalienable rights be respected.