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I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.
They are now, and they should be, its the ONLY Jewish state. The Arabs on the other hand have something like 49 states, I'd have to go count them up but if anything the Arab Muslims are over represented, and the Judaic people, under.
States aren't allocated on the basis of religion or ethnicity on a tit for tat basis. How many states do Europeans have? They have 51. Don't you think we should give some of them to the Jews since they have double the number of states the Arabs do?
Arabs have 22 states: List of Arab countries by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Which European states have religious, cultural and racial ties to the Jewish people, when you find one then please let the world know. Then let the world know what ties muslims have to Jerusalem other that dar al islam and conquest
Since when is that a requirement? Folks are talking about equalizing the number of states per religious grouping (totally ridiculous argement to begin with). Christians have more states. They need to give some up since they did, afterall, kill 2/3 of the Jews in Europe.
Only you are talking about that so you can demonise the Jews again. The fact is the arab muslims have 99.9% of the land in the M.E. and they still want more. In fact they want to dominate the world and turn it into an Islamic caliphate ruled from Mecca. As for killing 2/3 of the Jews didn't the Russians already do that a few years earlier. And what about the American illegal colonists that killed 9/10 of the indigenous population then ?
This isn't hard work, Coyote, its actually already done, basic history is about all it is. There simply is no distinct palestinian culture, its virtually indistinguishable from Arab Muslim culture as a whole.
Even if someone wants to concede the issue its irrelevant as the Arab Muslims have more than fair representation in multiple states of the region. No reason at all the Judaic people shouldn't also be represented.
I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.
And if the muslims had won in 1948/1949, or at any point after that the Jews would now be extinct in that part of the world. So who would have represented them then ? ? ?
But they didn't, so that's just another pointless statement.
Not when you read their testimony from before the war of independence, and their many charters from after the war of independence. You can even read their letters to the UN that say the same thing. There will never be peace while a Jew is allowed to live in Palestine, and the Palestinians will fight until either the Jews are wiped out or the Palestinians are eradicated. You can keep on saying that the Palestinians proclamations are pointless all you want, they show that they are out to massacre every Jew. So why are you in denial, is it your anti Semitism and Jew hatred that is driving your POV ?
I think you and I will have to agree to disagree there. The Judaic people ARE represented, by a Jewish state.
Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.
See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.
Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.
However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.
If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.
However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.
But it has not taken it, and those that say they have are the ones trying to dismantle Israel. The land was Jewish in law, and that can not be disputed by anyone. The evidence was the Jordanian enacting of a law to relieve the Jews of ownership of the lands that Jordan occupied in 1949 and turning it over to Palestinian ownership. The Oslo accords turned back the pages of history and allowed the Jews who owned land in the west bank to reclaim it and make it theirs again. So get your facts right and stop posting from the Jew hatred anti semitic islamonazi POV
Well yes. It can.
Then dispute it in law, lets see how far you are prepared to go in your demonization of the Jews.
A history lesson for you that in itself proves that the land was Jewish.
Prior to 1900 the land was owned by the Ottoman empire that allowed minimal self rule by certain parts of the empire. The Ottomans went to war as allies of Germany and the Palestinians fought alongside their Mufti. They lost the war and so in line with the usual practise the losers lost land and goods to offset the costs incurred by the winning side. The land of Palestine was part of the reparations made to the LoN as the negotiators for the winning side. The LoN made treaties with various people allocating land to different groups, one of the groups was the Jews who received what was called Jewish Palestine, while the arab muslims received the lions share of all the land in the M.E. So dispute the international laws and the facts all you dare, as doing so will just show that you are a rabid anti Jew racist and Nazi.
The people that colonized Palestine, ejected the native people from the land they had been living on for several millennia and established a state for Jews at the expense of the Christians and Muslims were nearly all European Zionists. That was my only point. Whether Jews from Mars or anywhere else arrived after the native people were dispossessed is not in question. Unless the Jews face the fact that they expropriated a whole people to create their Jewish state, why would they ever compromise and come to some sort of peace. If all Jews believe the propaganda that Boston posts, then the propaganda has them believing:
1. God gave them the land so it was ok to expropriate the Christians and Muslims
2. There were no non-Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists colonized the place.
3. The Palestinians don't exist.
4. The Palestinians arrived after partition.
etc. etc.etc. all Zionist propaganda.
And the lies go on and on.
1 The lands legal sovereign owners gave the Jews the land under International law
2 The Catholic encyclopedia shows that the Ottomans counted more Jews than muslims in Palestine ( sanjak of Jerusalem)
3 Define Palestinians as the evidence shows that most arrived in the invasion forces from the arab league
4 So the evidence shows that they did arrive during the invasion, care to show they didn't.
Yes your lies do go on and on and on
Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.
See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.
Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.
However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.
If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.
However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.
But it has not taken it, and those that say they have are the ones trying to dismantle Israel. The land was Jewish in law, and that can not be disputed by anyone. The evidence was the Jordanian enacting of a law to relieve the Jews of ownership of the lands that Jordan occupied in 1949 and turning it over to Palestinian ownership. The Oslo accords turned back the pages of history and allowed the Jews who owned land in the west bank to reclaim it and make it theirs again. So get your facts right and stop posting from the Jew hatred anti semitic islamonazi POV
Well yes. It can.
Then dispute it in law, lets see how far you are prepared to go in your demonization of the Jews.
A history lesson for you that in itself proves that the land was Jewish.
Prior to 1900 the land was owned by the Ottoman empire that allowed minimal self rule by certain parts of the empire. The Ottomans went to war as allies of Germany and the Palestinians fought alongside their Mufti. They lost the war and so in line with the usual practise the losers lost land and goods to offset the costs incurred by the winning side. The land of Palestine was part of the reparations made to the LoN as the negotiators for the winning side. The LoN made treaties with various people allocating land to different groups, one of the groups was the Jews who received what was called Jewish Palestine, while the arab muslims received the lions share of all the land in the M.E. So dispute the international laws and the facts all you dare, as doing so will just show that you are a rabid anti Jew racist and Nazi.
According to the debate in the Mandate thread there were NO promises made to either the Jews or the Arabs and no land legally allocated to either group. It was an agreement between powers, not law.
The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
I think we all know by now you simply can't accept the truth.
Despite your obvious cognitive dissonance. The Judaic people are native to Judea. They developed from the Hyksos or protojudaic people in the Canaan valley area sometime in about the mid bronze age.
More than ample references have been offered supporting these facts.
We also know that there was no such people as palestinians until Arafat applied the term to the Arab Muslim Jordanians after the failed 67 attack against Israel. Previous to that they were former subjects of the Ottoman Empire
We also just went over how they colonized the area in two waves. One during the Arab Muslim expansion in roughly the 9th century CE and again in the late Zionist period.
So its really not hard to see Monty, that your statement is really just your own imagination because you are simply unable to face the facts.
The indigenous people in Judea are the Judaic people.
And no promises needed to be made. The people of the place own the place. All of the people who became Palestinian citizens after the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne became, collectively, the owners of Palestine.Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.
See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.
Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.
However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.
If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.
However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.
But it has not taken it, and those that say they have are the ones trying to dismantle Israel. The land was Jewish in law, and that can not be disputed by anyone. The evidence was the Jordanian enacting of a law to relieve the Jews of ownership of the lands that Jordan occupied in 1949 and turning it over to Palestinian ownership. The Oslo accords turned back the pages of history and allowed the Jews who owned land in the west bank to reclaim it and make it theirs again. So get your facts right and stop posting from the Jew hatred anti semitic islamonazi POV
Well yes. It can.
Then dispute it in law, lets see how far you are prepared to go in your demonization of the Jews.
A history lesson for you that in itself proves that the land was Jewish.
Prior to 1900 the land was owned by the Ottoman empire that allowed minimal self rule by certain parts of the empire. The Ottomans went to war as allies of Germany and the Palestinians fought alongside their Mufti. They lost the war and so in line with the usual practise the losers lost land and goods to offset the costs incurred by the winning side. The land of Palestine was part of the reparations made to the LoN as the negotiators for the winning side. The LoN made treaties with various people allocating land to different groups, one of the groups was the Jews who received what was called Jewish Palestine, while the arab muslims received the lions share of all the land in the M.E. So dispute the international laws and the facts all you dare, as doing so will just show that you are a rabid anti Jew racist and Nazi.
According to the debate in the Mandate thread there were NO promises made to either the Jews or the Arabs and no land legally allocated to either group. It was an agreement between powers, not law.
The Mandate of Palestine was the Mandate of what?The Palestinians are Palestinians by treaty, by international law, and domestic law.Yes, but the gist of this thread, and indeed the foundational ideology of the entire conflict is that the Jewish people have no rights to self-determination and self-rule and that the Jewish National Home should be dismantled.. The arguments made here by myself and Boston are primarily to counter that line of thinking, both because it is the morally correct thing to do and because its the only way to peace.
See, I'm not seeing it that way....I see the arguments about indiginous-ity as a means to disenfranchise one or the other side, and I see it just as strongly played out by the pro-Israeli side seeking make Palestinians "non-People" with every rhetorical tool available: they are an invented people, they don't have a unique (enough) culture, they didn't exist before a certain date, they are squatters, they are colonists, they should be sent to some other country - the propoganda on that is relentness. How can you not see that? If arguments need to be countered - surely, they should be countered on both sides.
Boston is also trying to point out that the Palestinian people also already have representation and self-rule in Palestine -- Jordan. They already have a State. Boston is not wrong on that. He is absolutely correct. What they want now is at least one (realistically now two) more States. Part of the reason they want those two more States, not the entire reason, but part, is to accomplish the goal described above -- to dismantle the Jewish National Home.
However, I add that, regardless of their origins and the length of time they have existed as a distinct people, the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are one now and because of that must be addressed. The only question is how to address them. I don't think Boston (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) objects to self-determination for a Palestinian people -- he just doesn't think it should be carved out of Israel.
If you mean by dismanteling Israel - I agree.
However, Israel took for itself the territory the Palestinians live on and has held it under occupation - utilizing that territory to create their state is not carving it out of Israel.
I think the confusion is that you assume the palestinians as Arafat named them in 67 are a distinct people that can be disenfranchised. I don't think they are. I see Arab Muslims trying yet again to take more Israeli land by pretending there is a disenfranchised people, selling the PR to the world. Really it doesn't take much of a background in history to realize its all just hype.
Even if the Arab Muslims of Jordan are a distinct people they already have a state in Jordan, I think I've managed to make that clear. And its all of about 100' from Israel. In which case a strong argument cam be made that IF and thats a huge IF these people are in any way indigenous ( and we know they're not because Arab Muslims expanded from the Arabian Peninsula in about the 7th to 9th century CE ) they already have at least one state.
They also already have another state or soon to be state in Gaza. Anytime they take the time from bombing and building tunnels to kidnap Israeli's and actually declare statehood. And there is absolutely no reason they can't as of this very instant.
The fundamental problem is racism and bigotry, and the hatred fomented by the Arab leagues greed. The Arab Muslims simply want it all and if they can't take it militarily they are going to try and take at least as much as they can through the PR war.
To which I say NOT ANOTHER INCH
The Arab Muslims can satisfy themselves with the 99% of the middle east they did get and quit whining about that last 1%.
The Palestinians, Christians and Muslims want their ancestral homeland back. The land the Palestinian people Christian and Muslim had lived on for several millennia was colonized by European Zionists. The fact that some of the Christian Palestinians converted to Islam does not change anything. By the way, the Palestinian people declared themselves as such long before 1967. Stop your usual Zionist propagandizing. All your propaganda and revisionism was debunked long ago by source documents.
PALESTINE.
CORRESPONDENCE
WITH THE
PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION
AND THE
ZIONIST ORGANISATION.
Presented to Parliament by Command of His Majesty.
JUNE, 1922.
LONDON:
Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable.
"............We would, therefore, submit the following observations:—
If the British Government would revise their present policy in Palestine, end the Zionist con-dominium, put a stop to all alien immigration and grant the People of Palestine — who by Right and Experience are the best judges of what is good and bad to their country — Executive and Legislative powers, the terms of a constitution could be discussed in a different atmosphere. If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration....."
UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)
This whole thread is for Zionists to blow smoke on the issue.
Then produce the treaties, international laws and domestic laws that say so. They must clearly state the formation of a Palestinian state for the arab muslims. They must not say the Mandate of Palestine as that is not a state.
How do you like that smoke that destroys your reply before you even make it.
You missed the Canaanites and Moabites out..........who were there long before the Jews,of course you did because you eliminated these two peoples to STEAL THEIR LAND........todays schism with the Palestinians you are trying to eliminate these people too.........But you have failed...The World is against you.The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
I think we all know by now you simply can't accept the truth.
Despite your obvious cognitive dissonance. The Judaic people are native to Judea. They developed from the Hyksos or protojudaic people in the Canaan valley area sometime in about the mid bronze age.
More than ample references have been offered supporting these facts.
We also know that there was no such people as palestinians until Arafat applied the term to the Arab Muslim Jordanians after the failed 67 attack against Israel. Previous to that they were former subjects of the Ottoman Empire
We also just went over how they colonized the area in two waves. One during the Arab Muslim expansion in roughly the 9th century CE and again in the late Zionist period.
So its really not hard to see Monty, that your statement is really just your own imagination because you are simply unable to face the facts.
The indigenous people in Judea are the Judaic people.
The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
Every Dog has its Day,Shusha........be circumspect of what you have done........WITH ARROGANCE AND HATEThe native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
And now the Jewish people are in Israel. So they are the natives of Israel and the Palestinians who no longer live there are Jordanians and Syrians. See how easy that was?
Every Dog has its Day,Shusha........be circumspect of what you have done........WITH ARROGANCE AND HATEThe native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
And now the Jewish people are in Israel. So they are the natives of Israel and the Palestinians who no longer live there are Jordanians and Syrians. See how easy that was?
You missed the Canaanites and Moabites out..........who were there long before the Jews,of course you did because you eliminated these two peoples to STEAL THEIR LAND........todays schism with the Palestinians you are trying to eliminate these people too.........But you have failed...The World is against you.The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
I think we all know by now you simply can't accept the truth.
Despite your obvious cognitive dissonance. The Judaic people are native to Judea. They developed from the Hyksos or protojudaic people in the Canaan valley area sometime in about the mid bronze age.
More than ample references have been offered supporting these facts.
We also know that there was no such people as palestinians until Arafat applied the term to the Arab Muslim Jordanians after the failed 67 attack against Israel. Previous to that they were former subjects of the Ottoman Empire
We also just went over how they colonized the area in two waves. One during the Arab Muslim expansion in roughly the 9th century CE and again in the late Zionist period.
So its really not hard to see Monty, that your statement is really just your own imagination because you are simply unable to face the facts.
The indigenous people in Judea are the Judaic people.
Every Dog has its Day,Shusha........be circumspect of what you have done........WITH ARROGANCE AND HATE
Footnote.....You are also ahead of yourself......Palestinians do live there and LIVE
The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
And now the Jewish people are in Israel. So they are the natives of Israel and the Palestinians who no longer live there are Jordanians and Syrians. See how easy that was?
The native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
And now the Jewish people are in Israel. So they are the natives of Israel and the Palestinians who no longer live there are Jordanians and Syrians. See how easy that was?
The Europeans of the Jewish faith are in Israel now. The Europeans of the Christian faith were there too, for a while. Longer than the European Jews have been there.
Not at all,just reading the reflection of your and the lemmings prose.......very sickening and shameful.........What you and the lemmings don't like is me ramming the truth up your noses.....just admit that you are a pack of shitsEvery Dog has its Day,Shusha........be circumspect of what you have done........WITH ARROGANCE AND HATEThe native people of Palestine are the Palestinians. The Jews were in Europe when the Mandate was signed. The Jews that colonized Palestine were natives of Europe, by definition.
And now the Jewish people are in Israel. So they are the natives of Israel and the Palestinians who no longer live there are Jordanians and Syrians. See how easy that was?
Oh yeah, Israelis are just seething with hate.
You are one sick dude broad brushing people like that.
Trouble is you have NO INTENTION of giving the Palestinians anything..............So that's why I am a Shining Sentinel against Zionist ShitheadsEvery Dog has its Day,Shusha........be circumspect of what you have done........WITH ARROGANCE AND HATE
Footnote.....You are also ahead of yourself......Palestinians do live there and LIVE
There is no arrogance or hate in wanting a safe place for the Jewish people to have self-determination and sovereignty over their ancestral lands. Isn't that exactly what the Palestinians are asking for too?
