The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Luissa]

Phone records show that Martin's inbound phone call from Witness #8 occurred at 19:12 which was during Zimmerman's dispatcher call.

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf

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That is when the call ended, he had already been on the phone for 18 minutes

No, that's when the call was received, if you look in the right column you can see the duration was 4-minutes. That means the inbound call was received during Zimmerman's dispatcher call.

• Dispatcher Call Starts approximately 1900 (0 minutes, 0 seconds or 0 from inside his truck,
• Zimmerman says Martin is coming toward the truck at approximately (19:12:00, 01:00),
• Zimmerman says Martin has his hand in his waistband (19:12:05, 01:05) as the same time as phone records show an INBOUND call from the girlfriend at (19:12),
• Zimmerman says he has something in his hand (19:12:26, 01:26), which may be Martin's cell phone (Good for Zimmerman),
• Zimmerman make note that Martin has turned to run (19:13:09, 02:09),
• Zimmerman exists the vehicle, you can hear the truck door opening and closing about 3 seconds later (19:13:11, 02:11),
• You can hear wind noises now as Zimmerman begins following Martin and dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him (19:13:14, 02:14),
• You can hear Zimmerman acknowledges with "OK" that he heard the dispatcher say he didn't need to follow Martin (19:13:24, 02:24),
• No other position information can be determined from the phone call which ended at approximately 19:15:11, 04:11).

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That is when the call ended with his girlfriend. He was already on the phone with her before he went to the C store. They placed her phone call starting at 6:54 and lasting 18 minutes until 7:12. This is something I have already posted with a link.

 

[WorldWatcher]

There is his truck at the curve, not farther down the lane.

Correct. Now follow Twin Trees Lane back to the West where it curves North toward the development entrance. The large building at that intersection on the west side of where Twin Trees Lane meets Retreat View Circle is the Clubhouse which is where the mailboxes are located.



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[Luissa]

Zimmerman's truck wasn't at the mail boxes, hence the "go past the mailboxes". Entering the development from the North you go past the clubhouse, past the mailboxes, and then Twin Trees Lane make a right turn (with no other option). Zimmerman's truck was parked farther down Twin Trees Lane.


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It was parked at the curve, and he didnt go back either way. You are arguing semantics, when he didnt go back to either when he should have.

No, I'm defining where the truck was located - not semantics. Undoubtedly Zimmerman continued away from the truck to the darkened area behind the houses after he acknowledged the dispatchers instruction only seconds after leaving the truck without continuing away from the truck.

The truck (and the mailboxes if you will) were to the West, Zimmerman moved to the East.

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So why are you arguing with me again?

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Phone records show that Martin's inbound phone call from Witness #8 occurred at 19:12 which was during Zimmerman's dispatcher call.

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf

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That is when the call ended, he had already been on the phone for 18 minutes

No, that's when the call was received, if you look in the right column you can see the duration was 4-minutes. That means the inbound call was received during Zimmerman's dispatcher call.

• Dispatcher Call Starts approximately 1900 (0 minutes, 0 seconds or 0 from inside his truck,
• Zimmerman says Martin is coming toward the truck at approximately (19:12:00, 01:00),
• Zimmerman says Martin has his hand in his waistband (19:12:05, 01:05) as the same time as phone records show an INBOUND call from the girlfriend at (19:12),
• Zimmerman says he has something in his hand (19:12:26, 01:26), which may be Martin's cell phone (Good for Zimmerman),
• Zimmerman make note that Martin has turned to run (19:13:09, 02:09),
• Zimmerman exists the vehicle, you can hear the truck door opening and closing about 3 seconds later (19:13:11, 02:11),
• You can hear wind noises now as Zimmerman begins following Martin and dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him (19:13:14, 02:14),
• You can hear Zimmerman acknowledges with "OK" that he heard the dispatcher say he didn't need to follow Martin (19:13:24, 02:24),
• No other position information can be determined from the phone call which ended at approximately 19:15:11, 04:11).

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Oh, that's damning. It's just as I always thought. Martin was defending himself. Martin turns to run and Zimmerman gets out of his truck and goes after him. The son of a bitch. If Martin managed to get the better of Zimmerman and had him down on the ground, that doesn't mean he wasn't acting in self-defense.

If Zimmerman had just done as he was told, stay in his fucking truck and waited for the police, the kid would probably still be alive.

I hope Zimmerman goes down for this, I don't like people like him prowling around my neighborhood, that's for sure.

 

[Oldstyle]

And according to Zimmerman Martin reached for the gun in his holster.
"hot the teen in self-defense after Trayvon repeatedly knocked his head to the ground and reached for the gun Zimmerman wore in a holster. He has pleaded not guilty."
Prosecutors: Trayvon Martin's DNA not on gun that killed him ? USATODAY.com

Which wouldn't that mean it was probably a belt holster on full view for Martin to see?

Not necessarily, there are multiple scenarios. One, Zimmerman displayed the firearm prior to the altercation. Two, Martin was unaware of the firearm and because aware of it during the altercation. Three, Martin was never aware that there was a firearm and didn't attempt to take it.

Everything doing with Martin's awareness of a firearm is only based on Zimmerman's statement.

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In order for you to believe your Scenario #1 you would have to believe that even though Martin HAD seen a firearm being carried by Zimmerman...he didn't mention it during the rather lengthy phone call with his girlfriend. Does that sound plausible to you? I think the words "He's got a gun" would have figured in there somewhere!

Scenario #2 is entirely plausible and even probable. If you're sitting astride someone's torso so that you can punch them in the head you're most likely going to have your legs pressed up against the sides of his hips or upper legs. It would be very likely that you would have felt the gun. As to whether or not you would identify it as a gun I have no way of knowing.

Scenario #3 is also entirely plausible except I would think that in order for Zimmerman to bring the weapon into play with someone straddling his body and shoot that person in the chest he would have had to have brought the gun in front of Martin and into his view. Since there were no signs of Martin's DNA on the gun I would be of the belief that he didn't see the gun until it was too late.

 

[Luissa]

There is his truck at the curve, not farther down the lane.

Correct. Now follow Twin Trees Lane back to the West where it curves North toward the development entrance. The large building at that intersection on the west side of where Twin Trees Lane meets Retreat View Circle is the Clubhouse which is where the mailboxes are located.



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Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

Either way he didnt go back to the mailboxes or his truck.

 

[WorldWatcher]

And according to Zimmerman Martin reached for the gun in his holster.
"hot the teen in self-defense after Trayvon repeatedly knocked his head to the ground and reached for the gun Zimmerman wore in a holster. He has pleaded not guilty."
Prosecutors: Trayvon Martin's DNA not on gun that killed him ? USATODAY.com

Which wouldn't that mean it was probably a belt holster on full view for Martin to see?

Not necessarily, there are multiple scenarios. One, Zimmerman displayed the firearm prior to the altercation. Two, Martin was unaware of the firearm and because aware of it during the altercation. Three, Martin was never aware that there was a firearm and didn't attempt to take it.

Everything doing with Martin's awareness of a firearm is only based on Zimmerman's statement.

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For one they didnt find his DNA on the holster. Which doesn't prove a lot, but could mean something.

Have you found anything on what position Zimmerman was in before he shot Martin? I read one article stating he was standing over Zimmerman. If that was true why didnt Zimmerman have more blood all over him?

From Zimmerman's descriptions, Martin's first punch was to his face which knocked him directly to the ground. Then Martin climbed on top. That would put Zimmerman and Martin in a chest-to-chest situation. Witnesses also report that Martin was on top and that Zimmerman was on the bottom.

However there are inconsistencies, beyond the lack of blood on Zimmerman who was under Martin with that situation:

1. Zimmerman says he never went down the south sidewalk of the "T" and that Martin jumped him at the top of the "T". Yet Martins body was 40-50 feet south.

2. There was no GSR on Zimmerman's jacket from such a close struggle, which might indicate his arm was extended away from his body when the weapon was fired.

3. The trajectory of the bullet was perpendicular to Martin's chest and pretty much centered, that would mean that Zimmerman had to extract the weapon from the right hip holster and maneuver the weapon between the chests and then cock his wrist "down" to achieve that trajectory. For two people struggling, a more logical bio-mechanical outcome would have been to draw the weapon, rotate the elbow, place the weapon against the chest and fire. The resulting shot though would have been more to Martin's side with a "rising" trajectory from lower right toward the "upper" left area of the chest cavity.​

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[WorldWatcher]

That is when the call ended, he had already been on the phone for 18 minutes

No, that's when the call was received, if you look in the right column you can see the duration was 4-minutes. That means the inbound call was received during Zimmerman's dispatcher call.

• Dispatcher Call Starts approximately 1900 (0 minutes, 0 seconds or 0 from inside his truck,
• Zimmerman says Martin is coming toward the truck at approximately (19:12:00, 01:00),
• Zimmerman says Martin has his hand in his waistband (19:12:05, 01:05) as the same time as phone records show an INBOUND call from the girlfriend at (19:12),
• Zimmerman says he has something in his hand (19:12:26, 01:26), which may be Martin's cell phone (Good for Zimmerman),
• Zimmerman make note that Martin has turned to run (19:13:09, 02:09),
• Zimmerman exists the vehicle, you can hear the truck door opening and closing about 3 seconds later (19:13:11, 02:11),
• You can hear wind noises now as Zimmerman begins following Martin and dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him (19:13:14, 02:14),
• You can hear Zimmerman acknowledges with "OK" that he heard the dispatcher say he didn't need to follow Martin (19:13:24, 02:24),
• No other position information can be determined from the phone call which ended at approximately 19:15:11, 04:11).

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That is when the call ended with his girlfriend. He was already on the phone with her before he went to the C store. They placed her phone call starting at 6:54 and lasting 18 minutes until 7:12. This is something I have already posted with a link.

Those were different phone calls. The phone record already link shows an inbound call at 19:12 with a duration of 4 minutes.

I've posted a link to the phone record that was part of discovery.


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[WorldWatcher]

It was parked at the curve, and he didnt go back either way. You are arguing semantics, when he didnt go back to either when he should have.

No, I'm defining where the truck was located - not semantics. Undoubtedly Zimmerman continued away from the truck to the darkened area behind the houses after he acknowledged the dispatchers instruction only seconds after leaving the truck without continuing away from the truck.

The truck (and the mailboxes if you will) were to the West, Zimmerman moved to the East.

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So why are you arguing with me again?

I'm not arguing, I'm correcting the misstatement of facts.



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[Luissa]

Not necessarily, there are multiple scenarios. One, Zimmerman displayed the firearm prior to the altercation. Two, Martin was unaware of the firearm and because aware of it during the altercation. Three, Martin was never aware that there was a firearm and didn't attempt to take it.

Everything doing with Martin's awareness of a firearm is only based on Zimmerman's statement.

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For one they didnt find his DNA on the holster. Which doesn't prove a lot, but could mean something.

Have you found anything on what position Zimmerman was in before he shot Martin? I read one article stating he was standing over Zimmerman. If that was true why didnt Zimmerman have more blood all over him?

From Zimmerman's descriptions, Martin's first punch was to his face which knocked him directly to the ground. Then Martin climbed on top. That would put Zimmerman and Martin in a chest-to-chest situation. Witnesses also report that Martin was on top and that Zimmerman was on the bottom.

However there are inconsistencies, beyond the lack of blood on Zimmerman who was under Martin with that situation:

1. Zimmerman says he never went down the south sidewalk of the "T" and that Martin jumped him at the top of the "T". Yet Martins body was 40-50 feet south.

2. There was no GSR on Zimmerman's jacket from such a close struggle, which might indicate his arm was extended away from his body when the weapon was fired.

3. The trajectory of the bullet was perpendicular to Martin's chest and pretty much centered, that would mean that Zimmerman had to extract the weapon from the right hip holster and maneuver the weapon between the chests and then cock his wrist "down" to achieve that trajectory. For two people struggling, a more logical bio-mechanical outcome would have been to draw the weapon, rotate the elbow, place the weapon against the chest and fire. The resulting shot though would have been more to Martin's side with a "rising" trajectory from lower right toward the "upper" left area of the chest cavity.​

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He also stated he pulled his gun out and aimed. And if he and gone back to his truck or the mailboxes he would have been away from where Martin die. And didnt he state he was going to the back entrance? Which is also in the opposite direction of where he made the call and where his truck was at.
I don't believe anything Zimmerman has said.

 

[Gracie]

What I got out of this case so far is A) Zimmerman is an asshole who should have listened to dispatch when they said to not follow Martin, and wanted to play "bad-ass-I-have-a-gun" along with the self righteous opinion of "I-am-a-part-of-neighborhood-watch-therefore-I-am-a-double-bad-ass" as entitlement to do what he did. Did he plan on the final results? I don't think so. Is he responsible? Yes.
B) Martin, in my opinion, was an asshole for not running to his home, not calling the cops, and going back to where Zimmerman "lost him" and confronting Zimmerman thinking he would be "a bad-ass-look-at-me", not knowing Zimmerman was armed. Did HE plan on the final results of his actions? Probably not. Is he responsible for his actions that night? Yes.

In short..both were idiots.

 

[WorldWatcher]

There is his truck at the curve, not farther down the lane.

Correct. Now follow Twin Trees Lane back to the West where it curves North toward the development entrance. The large building at that intersection on the west side of where Twin Trees Lane meets Retreat View Circle is the Clubhouse which is where the mailboxes are located.



>>>>

Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

Either way he didnt go back to the mailboxes or his truck.

Correct, Zimmerman did not proceed back to the truck. He continued to the East behind the buildings. During the audio interviews he claimed it was to find a street sign.

However:

1. There are no street signs behind houses.

2. Street signs are mounted at intersections, the only (and closest intersections) were to the West and South, yet Zimmerman traveled East.

3. If he was looking for a "house number", house numbers are not mounted on the back of houses and there were house numbers on the front of the houses lit by street lights and garage lights on the houses he walked around.​

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[Luissa]

No, I'm defining where the truck was located - not semantics. Undoubtedly Zimmerman continued away from the truck to the darkened area behind the houses after he acknowledged the dispatchers instruction only seconds after leaving the truck without continuing away from the truck.

The truck (and the mailboxes if you will) were to the West, Zimmerman moved to the East.

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So why are you arguing with me again?

I'm not arguing, I'm correcting the misstatement of facts.



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Sorry I took go passed mailboxes and you will see my truck as to his trucks being by the mailboxes. That is how it sounded to me. When I give directions that is what I would mean if I worded it that way.

 

[WorldWatcher]

What I got out of this case so far is A) Zimmerman is an asshole who should have listened to dispatch when they said to not follow Martin, and wanted to play "bad-ass-I-have-a-gun" along with the self righteous opinion of "I-am-a-part-of-neighborhood-watch-therefore-I-am-a-double-bad-ass" as entitlement to do what he did. Did he plan on the final results? I don't think so. Is he responsible? Yes.
B) Martin, in my opinion, was an asshole for not running to his home, not calling the cops, and going back to where Zimmerman "lost him" and confronting Zimmerman thinking he would be "a bad-ass-look-at-me", not knowing Zimmerman was armed. Did HE plan on the final results of his actions? Probably not. Is he responsible for his actions that night? Yes.

In short..both were idiots.

Do you have any evidence that shows that Martin "went back" as opposed to he stopped and Zimmerman approached him?

Any information (other that Zimmerman's statements) that shows that would be appreciated.


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[Luissa]

What I got out of this case so far is A) Zimmerman is an asshole who should have listened to dispatch when they said to not follow Martin, and wanted to play "bad-ass-I-have-a-gun" along with the self righteous opinion of "I-am-a-part-of-neighborhood-watch-therefore-I-am-a-double-bad-ass" as entitlement to do what he did. Did he plan on the final results? I don't think so. Is he responsible? Yes.
B) Martin, in my opinion, was an asshole for not running to his home, not calling the cops, and going back to where Zimmerman "lost him" and confronting Zimmerman thinking he would be "a bad-ass-look-at-me", not knowing Zimmerman was armed. Did HE plan on the final results of his actions? Probably not. Is he responsible for his actions that night? Yes.

In short..both were idiots.

If he was running towards the back entrance which Zimmerman said he was doing, and continued down the path he was on he would have reached the house he was staying at.

 

[WorldWatcher]

So why are you arguing with me again?

I'm not arguing, I'm correcting the misstatement of facts.



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Sorry I took go passed mailboxes and you will see my truck as to his trucks being by the mailboxes. That is how it sounded to me. When I give directions that is what I would mean if I worded it that way.

That's OK, but we are talking about a Murder 2 case, so specifics are going to be important for the Jury to garner a sense of the events and sequence of the events that night.

Specificity will be important.

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[Luissa]

I'm not arguing, I'm correcting the misstatement of facts.



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Sorry I took go passed mailboxes and you will see my truck as to his trucks being by the mailboxes. That is how it sounded to me. When I give directions that is what I would mean if I worded it that way.

That's OK, but we are talking about a Murder 2 case, so specifics are going to be important for the Jury to garner a sense of the events and sequence of the events that night.

Specificity will be important.

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Well good thing this isn't his trial. Lol

 

[Gracie]

What I got out of this case so far is A) Zimmerman is an asshole who should have listened to dispatch when they said to not follow Martin, and wanted to play "bad-ass-I-have-a-gun" along with the self righteous opinion of "I-am-a-part-of-neighborhood-watch-therefore-I-am-a-double-bad-ass" as entitlement to do what he did. Did he plan on the final results? I don't think so. Is he responsible? Yes.
B) Martin, in my opinion, was an asshole for not running to his home, not calling the cops, and going back to where Zimmerman "lost him" and confronting Zimmerman thinking he would be "a bad-ass-look-at-me", not knowing Zimmerman was armed. Did HE plan on the final results of his actions? Probably not. Is he responsible for his actions that night? Yes.

In short..both were idiots.

Do you have any evidence that shows that Martin "went back" as opposed to he stopped and Zimmerman approached him?

Any information (other that Zimmerman's statements) that shows that would be appreciated.


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Nope, which is why I said this is going to be an interesting case and all anyone really knows so far is what has been put out there to read. Who knows what will pop up during the trial.
Like I said earlier...it's just my opinion. For now.

 

[dilloduck]

Beyond racial divides and gun control I think the more important issue here is self defense. How far can one legally go in defending oneself and what definitition of fear entitles one to act to eradicate it.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Beyond racial divides and gun control I think the more important issue here is self defense. How far can one legally go in defending oneself and what definitition of fear entitles one to act to eradicate it.

IMHO the primary question the Jury will be asked to asses first will be "who was the initial aggressor".

**IF** Zimmerman is viewed as the initial aggressor and Martin was defending himself, since he had to requirement to retreat under Florida's Stand Your Ground Law, can Zimmerman be held responsible for the actions that led to the confrontation. If that is the case developed by the prosecution and the Jury buys it, then Zimmerman could be in trouble.

**IF**, on the other hand, the view is that Zimmerman's actions up to the confrontation were the actions of a reasonable person and Martin was the initial aggressor, then Zimmerman's actions with Martin as the aggressor put a much more favorable light on the outcome for Zimmerman.


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With that said, the physical, logical, and forensic evidence in some ways is not consistent with Zimmerman's stories after the fact. However from the evidence released so far during discovery, the standard under Florida law for a Murder 2 charge seems difficult for the prosecution to achieve.


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