The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Esmeralda]

Just because you might be afraid of something is not evidence that someone else is. Evidence is important.
Hands can be used as a deadly force.

yes it will be important testimony

since the witness claims it was zimmerman

screaming for help

There isn't any evidence that proves Martin was afraid that his life was being threatened although people love to project their own fears onto him.

Martin did not have to be afraid his life was threatened; he didn't use deadly force. All he had to be thinking was that he needed to defend himself against someone else's unlawful force on him. ("to the extent that the person believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against ... other’s imminent use of unlawful force..." ). That is why policemen have to identify themselves, to wear uniforms and carry badges, so we know if they are using force against us, it is lawful. As far as Trayvon knew, Zimmermann had every intention of doing him harm. He had absolutely no idea who Zimmerman was or why he was following and chasing him.

 

[Oldstyle]

You are a racist! Trayvon was not attacked or injured prior to being shot. He did not have a mark on his body other than the gunshot. Had no justifiable fear for his life.

Except that he was being stalked by an armed bigot.

According to Florida law, if you are in fear that someone is going to commit an unlawful attack on you, you do have the right to use force. Trayvon had every right to think Zimmerman was going to attack him. Why else would he be following him? Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman was with Neighborhood Watch. Zimmerman never told him that. Trayvon had, according to Florida law the right to use force on someone before that force was used on him. Not deadly force, like a knife or gun, but force. However, Zimmerman's life was not in immediate danger; he had no right to use deadly force.

Once again you make a HUGE leap of logic! What reason does Trayvon Martin have to think that George Zimmerman is going to "attack" him simply because Zimmerman is following him?

You give Martin the right to use physical violence against someone who HASN'T done anything of a violent nature towards him...yet at the same time...you deny George Zimmerman the right to use physical violence against someone WHO IS BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF HIM!!!

Somehow that all makes "sense" to you...which is the really scary thing here.

 

[Oldstyle]

They want to paint the victim in a poor light, it's like what they do in rape cases. In this case it doesn't matter, he wasn't found with a gun or drugs on him, and he wasn't committing a crime.
Personally, I wonder why so many think that Zimmerman can use self defense, but not Martin. Someone following you could be considered a threat, and make one fear for their safety. So yeah, I never understood why some dont see that part of the situation. Is it because he is black? A teenager? Or not a legal gun owner?

You are a racist! Trayvon was not attacked or injured prior to being shot. He did not have a mark on his body other than the gunshot. Had no justifiable fear for his life.

Except that he was being stalked by an armed bigot.

Yeah, that would be the "bigot" that organizes protests against the beating of a black man by a white police officers' kid? Please stop with the "bigot" and "racist" nonsense, folks...it isn't going to fly and simply makes you look ridiculous.

 

[Ernie S.]

[
So you rely on the Police to protect you and your loved ones, Joe? And if they aren't around what's your "fall back" plan? I carry a concealed weapon because I'm only too aware that the Police are incapable of protecting us from all the evil people running around out there and if one of them decides myself or the people I love are going to be their next victim...I'm going to use that gun to make sure that doesn't happen. You? You'll be going to the hospital or to a morgue to ID your loved ones because you didn't care enough about their safety to take precautions.

Guy, a gun in your home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household than a bad guy.

Because you are a stupid, brain-dead rube that has bought into the NRA/Gun Industry propaganda is pretty much why I want you disarmed. You sound like the Zimmerman type who would plug an innocent kid because he was in the wrong place or had the wrong color skin tone.

This is why I want to make a shining example of Zimmerman. To let people like you know, there are limits.

How many times must you be reminded that that study has been debunked numerous times, most notably, by its author?

 

[Ernie S.]

Guy, if you aren't a policeman, there's no good reason for you to be going out there with a gun... much less a concealed one.

As far as what was warranted. Who left the scene in a body bag again?

Protection of yourself and your loved ones is a good reason to carry a gun. I don't own a gun, have only shot a gun once in my life, I'm not comfortable with them, but that's clearly a valid reason.

I was in the Army for 11 years. I shot a lot of guns. I still see no good reason for most civilians to have them, or for people like DogStyle to be walking around toting heat because he's scared of the Darkies.

Drinking already, bigot?

 

[Oldstyle]

yes it will be important testimony

since the witness claims it was zimmerman

screaming for help

There isn't any evidence that proves Martin was afraid that his life was being threatened although people love to project their own fears onto him.

Martin did not have to be afraid his life was threatened; he didn't use deadly force. All he had to be thinking was that he needed to defend himself against someone else's unlawful force on him. ("to the extent that the person believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against ... other’s imminent use of unlawful force..." ). That is why policemen have to identify themselves, to wear uniforms and carry badges, so we know if they are using force against us, it is lawful. As far as Trayvon knew, Zimmermann had every intention of doing him harm. He had absolutely no idea who Zimmerman was or why he was following and chasing him.

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men. George Zimmerman has lost the man he was following and is returning to his SUV to meet the Police at that point. His testimony is that Trayvon Martin then approaches HIM asking why are you following me? It should be noted that the confrontation takes place approximately 70 yards from the condo of Trayvon Martin's father's girlfriend. 70 yards away with almost five minutes to make your way there...but you're making the claim that Martin was in "imminent" danger from Zimmerman following him? The truth is...Martin is in ZERO danger from Zimmerman following him if he simply goes to the condo he's staying in with the time that he has to do so. The truth is...he could have CRAWLED 70 yards in almost five minutes time but he chose not to do so. Instead Martin chose to confront the man who had lost him and was walking back to his SUV. At THAT point it's Zimmerman who is in fear of "imminent" danger from a man who comes at him and punches him in the face, not the other way around.

 

[Ernie S.]

A medical report by George Zimmerman's family doctor, taken a day after the February 26 shooting, shows Zimmerman was diagnosed with a fractured nose, two black eyes and two lacerations on the back of his head.


He’s going to need to prove the use of deadly force was justified. A fractured nose, black eyes and some scrapes on the back of his head do not connote his life was in danger. “
Judicious Use Of Deadly Force

Black eyes, a fractured (NOT BROKEN) nose, and a couple of scrapes on the back of his head do not indicate a "last resort" situation where he needed to use deadly force. The videos of him right after the incident show he was hardly injured at all. His injuries were what anyone might get in a school yard fist fight, which was the only kind of fighting Trayvon was familair with.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine



I think Zimmerman is going to have a very hard time proving he had good reason to believe he was in imminent danger of losing his life. He was in what amounted to a school yard fight, with a school kid. There was no great bodily harm. There was no suggestion of imminent death.

In fact, it is Martin who was justified in using force, for he was the one who would feel he was in imminent danger by some unknown person who was following him and chasing after him. He ran and Zimmerman ran after him: we hear that and he admits to that on the 911 tape.

The shoe is completely on the other foot. It was Trayvon who would be in fear of being attacked, Trayvon who would be justified protecting himself if he believed, and he certainly had a right to, that someone was chasing him to do him harm. That is certainly what I would believe if I were out walking alone at night and someone was following me and began to run after me when I started to run away.

Also, Zimmerman knew the police were on the way. He knew his life was not in danger because the cops were going to be there any minute. He was in what amounted to a school yard fist fight with the cops on the way: deadly force was not justified.

it was revealed in court on friday

that there is a 2nd witness that saw martin

on top of zimmerman pounding zimmerman

That changes nothing of what I posted. Imminent, life threatening, last resort situation. Doesn't qualify. It is Martin who had every right to confront someone he thought was going to attack him: "to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force..." As far as Martin would know Zimmerman might want to rape him or rob him. Martin would have no idea what was up. Zimmerman at no time in his report about that night says he told Martin he was with Neighborhood Watch and was just checking things out. Why didn't he do that? I imagine Trayvon was scared, scared something was going to happen to him: I know damn well I would be, terrified, and ready to defend myself against someone's 'imminent use of unlawful force" against me. Yep. Martin wasn't using deadly force. Zimmerman used deadly force. Martin would be justified in using force. Zimmerman was not justified in using deadly force.

As has been noted: Zimmerman is going down.

What part of sitting on top of a man and pounding his head into the pavement do you not consider grievous bodily harm?. Do you have any idea how easy it is to die from repeated blows to the head? I bet you are 100% in favor of forcing motorcyclists to wear a protective helmet. Why is that?

 

[Oldstyle]

Guy, if you aren't a policeman, there's no good reason for you to be going out there with a gun... much less a concealed one.

As far as what was warranted. Who left the scene in a body bag again?

Protection of yourself and your loved ones is a good reason to carry a gun. I don't own a gun, have only shot a gun once in my life, I'm not comfortable with them, but that's clearly a valid reason.

I was in the Army for 11 years. I shot a lot of guns. I still see no good reason for most civilians to have them, or for people like DogStyle to be walking around toting heat because he's scared of the Darkies.

Oh, so now "I'm" a racist as well? You know what, JoeB? Without the "race card" that you continually play...you HAVE no argument at all...and since your contention that George Zimmerman is a racist is based on about the same amount of proof that I am one...it's quite obvious that you're blowing smoke here.

 

[Oldstyle]

And if you were in the Army you SHOULD understand that part of what you were doing there was protecting the Constitution...which is what gives me the right as a civilian to carry a gun to protect myself and my family. Duh?

 

[Esmeralda]

There isn't any evidence that proves Martin was afraid that his life was being threatened although people love to project their own fears onto him.

Martin did not have to be afraid his life was threatened; he didn't use deadly force. All he had to be thinking was that he needed to defend himself against someone else's unlawful force on him. ("to the extent that the person believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against ... other’s imminent use of unlawful force..." ). That is why policemen have to identify themselves, to wear uniforms and carry badges, so we know if they are using force against us, it is lawful. As far as Trayvon knew, Zimmermann had every intention of doing him harm. He had absolutely no idea who Zimmerman was or why he was following and chasing him.

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men. George Zimmerman has lost the man he was following and is returning to him SUV to meet the Police at that point. His testimony is that Trayvon Martin then approaches HIM asking why are you following me? It should be noted that the confrontation takes place approximately 70 yards from the condo of Trayvon Martin's father's girlfriend. 70 yards away with almost five minutes to make your way there...but you're making the claim that Martin was in "imminent" danger from Zimmerman following him? The truth is...Martin is in ZERO danger from Zimmerman following him if he simply goes to the condo he's staying in with the time that he has to do so. The truth is...he could have CRAWLED 70 yards in almost five minutes time but he chose not to do so. Instead Martin chose to confront the man who had lost him and was walking back to his SUV. At THAT point it's Zimmerman who is in fear of "imminent" danger from a man who comes at him and punches him in the face, not the other way around.

In order to accept that scenario, one would have to accept that Zimmerman is telling the truth. Not only does he have every reason to lie, he has the opportunity to do so because he killed the only other person who would know what happened. Also, he is a proven liar, someone who has blatantly lied to the court. I don't accept the veracity of anything in his 'story,' nothing.

 

[Oldstyle]

The timeline isn't something that is dispute, Esmeralda. We know exactly when things HAPPENED because of the cell phone calls that were going on.

George Zimmerman's account of what happened that night corresponds EXACTLY with the timeline established BY those cell phone calls.

 

[Oldstyle]

Martin did not have to be afraid his life was threatened; he didn't use deadly force. All he had to be thinking was that he needed to defend himself against someone else's unlawful force on him. ("to the extent that the person believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against ... other’s imminent use of unlawful force..." ). That is why policemen have to identify themselves, to wear uniforms and carry badges, so we know if they are using force against us, it is lawful. As far as Trayvon knew, Zimmermann had every intention of doing him harm. He had absolutely no idea who Zimmerman was or why he was following and chasing him.

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men. George Zimmerman has lost the man he was following and is returning to him SUV to meet the Police at that point. His testimony is that Trayvon Martin then approaches HIM asking why are you following me? It should be noted that the confrontation takes place approximately 70 yards from the condo of Trayvon Martin's father's girlfriend. 70 yards away with almost five minutes to make your way there...but you're making the claim that Martin was in "imminent" danger from Zimmerman following him? The truth is...Martin is in ZERO danger from Zimmerman following him if he simply goes to the condo he's staying in with the time that he has to do so. The truth is...he could have CRAWLED 70 yards in almost five minutes time but he chose not to do so. Instead Martin chose to confront the man who had lost him and was walking back to his SUV. At THAT point it's Zimmerman who is in fear of "imminent" danger from a man who comes at him and punches him in the face, not the other way around.

In order to accept that scenario, one would have to accept that Zimmerman is telling the truth. Not only does he have every reason to lie, he has the opportunity to do so because he killed the only other person who would know what happened. Also, he is a proven liar, someone who has blatantly lied to the court. I don't accept the veracity of anything in his 'story,' nothing.

Your problem is that in order to accept your version of events...you have to explain why Trayvon Martin isn't safe and sound inside of the girlfriend's condo with the almost five minutes that he has and 70 yards he needed to cover. You need to explain how Martin is in "imminent" danger from a man who's lost sight of him and is returning to his truck to meet police. Somehow you use the "imminent" danger theory even though it is now Martin that is the one approaching Zimmerman.

 

[Oldstyle]

And you also have to explain how it is that Zimmerman's supposedly "made up" version of events corresponds with the time line established by the cell phone calls EVEN THOUGH HE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS ON TRAYVON MARTIN'S CALLS!!!

 

[Oldstyle]

George Zimmerman is obviously an exceptional man! (eye-roll) He has the power to know things that he has no means of knowing...and he can threaten those that he can't find!

 

[Ernie S.]

The 2 witnesses back up Zimmerman's story. We can assume Zimmerman is telling the truth, not because his story benefits him, but because facts support it.

I'm terribly sorry that your agenda suffers in the light of the facts, but you should be used to it by now.

The days of repeating a lie ad nauseam and eventually having it accepted as fact are over. You and JoeB666 should get used to it.

 

[Oldstyle]

People who try and lie their way out of a situation typically trip themselves up either with conflicting or changing testimony (Jody Arias is a perfect example of that) or the evidence doesn't back up their version of events.

In this case George Zimmerman's story to Police has remained remarkably consistent and it is backed up by things like the phone call records.

The fact that Zimmerman's wife chose to not disclose the full amount of money that they had received from supporters to the court when it was trying to set his bail somehow invalidates ALL of Zimmerman's testimony given before that ever happened? That's like saying that someone who cheated on their taxes is more likely to be guilty of murder...because they cheated on their taxes.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men.

That's not true, that can be shown by comparing timelines of the various recorded calls.

IIRC the dispatcher call was received at 19:11 and lasted 4 minutes 11 seconds. That call ended then at about 19:15:11. Phone records show that the Witness #8 inbound call to Martins phone occurred at 19:12 and lasted 4 minutes (I'm sure the prosecution has more exact ones now). That call ended with the confrontation then at 19:16.

The first neighbor 911 call was received at 19:16:11 (time stampted on the same system Zimmerman's dispatcher call). Using only the Sanford Police time stamps there is a difference of only 60 seconds between the end of Zimmerman's call and the first 911 call. Factor in the phone records of Witness #8's call and the unaccounted for time is down to approximately 11 seconds.

So the "imminent threat" window isn't "five minutes" is the seconds between the end of the phone calls and the first 911 call which by that time the altercation was already in progress.

>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

People who try and lie their way out of a situation typically trip themselves up either with conflicting or changing testimony (Jody Arias is a perfect example of that) or the evidence doesn't back up their version of events.

In this case George Zimmerman's story to Police has remained remarkably consistent and it is backed up by things like the phone call records.

But is undermined by logic, physical, and forensic evidence. Such as searching for street signs behind a house, lack of GSR on his jacket indicative of a full arm extension, bullet trajectory inconsistent with the physical situation Zimmerman described, and a body location inconsistent with his stories.

The fact that Zimmerman's wife chose to not disclose the full amount of money that they had received from supporters to the court when it was trying to set his bail somehow invalidates ALL of Zimmerman's testimony given before that ever happened? That's like saying that someone who cheated on their taxes is more likely to be guilty of murder...because they cheated on their taxes.

Zimmerma's wife was not the one that provided finacial asset statement required under Florida law to the court Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman's wife is not the one that made a motion for bail specifically stating there were no significant financial assets and that there was only one passport. Zimmerman did that. Zimmerman is also on audio tape specifically conspiring to hide financial assets and a 2nd passport from the court.

Zimmerman's wife was not the one that had bond revoked specifically for providing false testimony to the court.

With all that said, it is all irrelevant to the court regarding the proceedings that will focus on that night and will not be admissible. It is inadmissible by the prosecution unless the defense opens the door.



>>>>

 

[Oldstyle]

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men.

That's not true, that can be shown by comparing timelines of the various recorded calls.

IIRC the dispatcher call was received at 19:11 and lasted 4 minutes 11 seconds. That call ended then at about 19:15:11. Phone records show that the Witness #8 inbound call to Martins phone occurred at 19:12 and lasted 4 minutes (I'm sure the prosecution has more exact ones now). That call ended with the confrontation then at 19:16.

The first neighbor 911 call was received at 19:16:11 (time stampted on the same system Zimmerman's dispatcher call). Using only the Sanford Police time stamps there is a difference of only 60 seconds between the end of Zimmerman's call and the first 911 call. Factor in the phone records of Witness #8's call and the unaccounted for time is down to approximately 11 seconds.

So the "imminent threat" window isn't "five minutes" is the seconds between the end of the phone calls and the first 911 call which by that time the altercation was already in progress.

>>>>

The almost five minute time frame I'm referencing is the time from when Martin goes behind the row of buildings and Zimmerman can no longer see him as he's sitting in his SUV...and the time when the conflict begins and Martin's phone goes dead. Who cares about the first 9/11 call! The almost five minutes is the amount of time that Zimmerman has no knowledge of Trayvon Martin's whereabouts.

 

[Meathead]

Martin did not have to be afraid his life was threatened; he didn't use deadly force. All he had to be thinking was that he needed to defend himself against someone else's unlawful force on him. ("to the extent that the person believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against ... other’s imminent use of unlawful force..." ). That is why policemen have to identify themselves, to wear uniforms and carry badges, so we know if they are using force against us, it is lawful. As far as Trayvon knew, Zimmermann had every intention of doing him harm. He had absolutely no idea who Zimmerman was or why he was following and chasing him.

The applicable Florida law is as follows:

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

The highlighting is mine and I did so to point out the important word in that paragraph. There is almost a five minute time period that elapses between the time that Trayvon Martin goes behind the row of buildings out of George Zimmerman's sight and the start of the fight between the two men. George Zimmerman has lost the man he was following and is returning to him SUV to meet the Police at that point. His testimony is that Trayvon Martin then approaches HIM asking why are you following me? It should be noted that the confrontation takes place approximately 70 yards from the condo of Trayvon Martin's father's girlfriend. 70 yards away with almost five minutes to make your way there...but you're making the claim that Martin was in "imminent" danger from Zimmerman following him? The truth is...Martin is in ZERO danger from Zimmerman following him if he simply goes to the condo he's staying in with the time that he has to do so. The truth is...he could have CRAWLED 70 yards in almost five minutes time but he chose not to do so. Instead Martin chose to confront the man who had lost him and was walking back to his SUV. At THAT point it's Zimmerman who is in fear of "imminent" danger from a man who comes at him and punches him in the face, not the other way around.

In order to accept that scenario, one would have to accept that Zimmerman is telling the truth. Not only does he have every reason to lie, he has the opportunity to do so because he killed the only other person who would know what happened. Also, he is a proven liar, someone who has blatantly lied to the court. I don't accept the veracity of anything in his 'story,' nothing.

Hopefully, the jury will be more objective and intelligent than you. That would be a very low threshold indeed, but then we saw what happened with OJ.