The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Gadawg73]

Oh, no evidence huh? This case went to trial because he murdered a kid.

The case went to trial because of PC pressure. Up until PC pressure was brought to bear, Zimmerman wasn't even arrested.

One of the prosecution witnesses that hurt their case so much was the investigator who was forced to resign due to PC pressure.

I wouldn't call it PC. The police chief was fired because he mishandled the case. You just don't allow someone who minutes ago murdered a minor. Who does that?

LOL, the police chief RESIGNED because of the circus your team brought to town.

When Chief Bill Lee FIRST OFFERED HIS RESIGNATION the Milton City Commission refused to accept it. A majority of the commission felt that Lee was treated unfairly.

You are one stupid broad. You believe everything someone else tells you instead of finding the facts yourself.

 

[testarosa]

I would have thought it would be a bar on voluntary manslaughter, but not on involuntary manslaughter. Am I wrong? I'm just trying to get an understanding of how this works. This is my first time reading up on the intricacies of this type of trial. I ask because what I read said the opposite of what you just said. It said intent does not apply. I'm confused...?

You are close, but confusing elements of the two types of crime we are discussing. Murder requires intent; manslaughter does not. And intent is not an issue in this case, as Zimmerman intended to kill Martin. Zimmerman's argument essentially admits that his intent is consistent with the statutory requirements for murder 2.

Yeah I have no doubt that if the jury rules him not guilty of murder two that he's also not guilty of voluntary manslaughter. My question is to the lesser included charge of involuntary manslaughter due to negligence.

That's up to the state / defense to bring that for instruction. Now, we're on M2.

 

[25Caliber]

[MENTION=9370]Jon[/MENTION]-berzerk

Hey bro, I was doing some reading and it appears you are right. Here is what I found (Florida Law):

To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

(Victim) is dead.
Give 2a, 2b, or 2c depending upon allegations and proof.
2. a. (Defendant) intentionally caused the death of (victim).
2. b. (Defendant) intentionally procured the death of (victim).
2. c. The death of (victim) was caused by the culpable negligence of (defendant).

However, the defendant cannot be guilty of manslaughter if the killing was either justifiable or excusable homicide as I have previously explained those terms.

I was wrong...you were right...my apologies.

look at 782.07

782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s


"without lawful justification"

self defense is lawful justification

so if zimmerman is found to be not guilty of m2 because he

acted in the lawful justification (self defense)

the same lawful act resides in the manslaughter charge as well

Yep...youre right...I totally missed that. You were patient so I looked a little deeper...I owed you at least that

 

[The Rabbi]

He testified to it...defense didnt challenge it. Conflicting statements...it is what it is.

His best friend testified under oath to what GZ told him...are you saying that his best friend lied about it? Did the defense team deny he said it....has GZ denied he said that to his friend? This best friend and US. Air Marshal got up on the stand and lied to hurt his friend? You have quite the imagination.

So if the testimonies do not agree in every detail someone is lying? You're not very bright are you?
His friend made a mistake. His friend mis-heard. It is second hand testimony. Zimmerman's own testimony is clear. And the DNA evidence does not contradict it.
The obvious conclusion to anyone with two functioning brain cells is that his friend mis-heard what Zimmerman told him.

Hey, I thought you had me in ignore. What's with suddenly deciding to salvage whats left of your reputation by puking some more bullshit into this thread?

Nevermind...you are a hopeless hack. You like to argue and scream and curse. You are not interested in honest discussion...carry on.

Translation: I've lost this round.
You cannot argue against what I posted without looking like a fool You cannot agree with what I posted without looking like a fool. So you dismiss the post.

 

[testarosa]

If you would have asked me last year, I probably would have. But...I don't look so slick any more in a nighty with one breast gone. I'm all lopsided.

aren't we all in one way or another? (Sorry to hear this though). Best friends wife kicked breast cancers ass last year and now dammit she goes in for a biopsy next week because they found two spots on her liver. I hate that fucking disease.

Yes, but the lesser included charge of Involuntary Manslaughter, is not murder. Your point about self-defense and 2nd degree murder do not apply to the lesser charge. That would be like saying you can get away with illegal parking if you killed someone a few days later in self defense. The killing and the parking are two different crimes.

I'm sorry, I am not seeing that anywhere. He's charged with M2, period. No lesser included.

So the state or the defense can include a lesser charge if they if they wish for instruction, but that's not here.

All that's here is an Angela Corey indictment. lol

Affidavit of probable cause for M2

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/hln/www/...2/04/12/zimmerman_probable_cause_document.pdf

@CrazedScotsman started a thread on that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-and-justice-system/301161-question-about-prosecution.html

He asked about something he saw on the tube.

He said that he heard one of the talking heads say that the Prosecutor can ask for lesser included charges, but the defense has to agree or it's a no-go.

True?

I'm going to GUESS it's going to be a motion and they'll argue it.

That's a guess, need [MENTION=21954]Sunshine[/MENTION] for that.

 

[RKMBrown]

I'm sorry, I am not seeing that anywhere. He's charged with M2, period. No lesser included.

So the state or the defense can include a lesser charge if they if they wish for instruction, but that's not here.

All that's here is an Angela Corey indictment. lol

Affidavit of probable cause for M2

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/hln/www/...2/04/12/zimmerman_probable_cause_document.pdf

The way a lawyer explained it to me... is the lesser charge is understood to be included and will be provided to the jury per instructions from the Judge that will be forthcoming, this unless the Prosecution asks her not to.

No.

He's not charged with this. He's charged with M2.

The state or the defense can ask for lesser charges to be included/instructed.

They haven't done that. The state is full on blast stupidly trying to prove M2.

They have not done that, yet. From what I've read they can do it later. They would be crazy/incompetent to not do it if they are loosing M2. Course from what we've seen post the opening statements the prosecution does seem to be incompetent....

I believe I read that the prosecution originally wanted the charge to be Involuntary Manslaughter. From what I've seen that's the case they are pushing, not the M2 case. Think about it.. if M2 then the witnesses have been providing evidence for defense.. if involuntary manslaughter, not so much.

 

[IrishTexanChick]

NP and thanks for the photos..



...

jk

lmfao....I had to think......
very funny

I was just thinking you were having a Fryday and gave you a Fryday pass ;-)

I know you gave me a pass too. And I thank you......
Today....I'm an

 

[testarosa]

or @legaleagle45

I hope I did that right.

The problem I see is the state took on the burden and charged M2, they do lesser at the end of this game, how's the look to the jury?

Like more wishy washy prosecution bs.

 

[Sarah G]

Martin was not trespassing on private property as he was an invitee by his father.
Zimmerman never stalked Martin.

Zimmerman first told the 911 guy that he would meet the police at the mailboxes then changed his mind and said have them call me and I will tell them where I am.

To me, that says he intended to follow Treyvon. He took two flashlights and a loaded gun.

He stalked him alright.

He is not charged with stalking.
Stalking is a crime in Florida.
Try again, something, ANYTHING that is credible and relevant to this trial.
I do give you credit for coming back but please bring something to the table.

Coming back from what? I've always been here.

 

[25Caliber]

[MENTION=42969]jon_berzerk[/MENTION] and wharfrat

So even if they would have come with the charge of manslaughter he could have pleaded self defense even still and negligence is a non issue as long as he shows self defense?

 

[testarosa]

The way a lawyer explained it to me... is the lesser charge is understood to be included and will be provided to the jury per instructions from the Judge that will be forthcoming, this unless the Prosecution asks her not to.

No.

He's not charged with this. He's charged with M2.

The state or the defense can ask for lesser charges to be included/instructed.

They haven't done that. The state is full on blast stupidly trying to prove M2.

They have not done that, yet. From what I've read they can do it later. They would be crazy/incompetent to not do it if they are loosing M2. Course from what we've seen post the opening statements the prosecution does seem to be incompetent....

I believe I read that the prosecution originally wanted the charge to be Involuntary Manslaughter. From what I've seen that's the case they are pushing, not the M2 case.

Where'd you read that?

Angela Corey IS the prosecution, those are her boys.

And she's got a grand jury on her M2 arrest.

She was M2 out of the gate.

 

[Defiant1]

Oh, no evidence huh? This case went to trial because he murdered a kid.

The case went to trial because of PC pressure. Up until PC pressure was brought to bear, Zimmerman wasn't even arrested.

One of the prosecution witnesses that hurt their case so much was the investigator who was forced to resign due to PC pressure.

I wouldn't call it PC. The police chief was fired because he mishandled the case. You just don't allow someone who minutes ago murdered a minor. Who does that?

Sarah, you spew all over these threads day and night with your disbelief. You have been told many times about the laws in Florida.

Have you looked them up and read them for yourself? The law protects a person who acts in self defense from prosecution.

Initially, the LEOs after investigating the case believed it was a righteous shoot.

The only ones that are being dishonest are the media, Sharpton and his ilk, and the President.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Hi everyone.

Did anyone else see that Nancy Grapes didn't host her show yesterday, and left it to one of her goofy friends to do it?

I think she realized Capt. Carter destroyed the state's case, and is starting her extended vacation early.

 

[Sarah G]

The case went to trial because of PC pressure. Up until PC pressure was brought to bear, Zimmerman wasn't even arrested.

One of the prosecution witnesses that hurt their case so much was the investigator who was forced to resign due to PC pressure.

I wouldn't call it PC. The police chief was fired because he mishandled the case. You just don't allow someone who minutes ago murdered a minor. Who does that?

Sarah, you spew all over these threads day and night with your disbelief. You have been told many times about the laws in Florida.

Have you looked them up and read them for yourself? The law protects a person who acts in self defense from prosecution.

Initially, the LEOs after investigating the case believed it was a righteous shoot.

The only ones that are being dishonest are the media, Sharpton and his ilk, and the President.

What do you mean by Sharpton and his "ilk"? And the president? Let's see, what is the common denominator there... Hmmm.. This stuff grates on fair minded people after just a few times of hearing it.

The only way race may enter into this case is you all wanting Zimmerman to simply walk free after killing Treyvon.

 

[wharfrat]

I would have thought it would be a bar on voluntary manslaughter, but not on involuntary manslaughter. Am I wrong? I'm just trying to get an understanding of how this works. This is my first time reading up on the intricacies of this type of trial. I ask because what I read said the opposite of what you just said. It said intent does not apply. I'm confused...?

You are close, but confusing elements of the two types of crime we are discussing. Murder requires intent; manslaughter does not. And intent is not an issue in this case, as Zimmerman intended to kill Martin. Zimmerman's argument essentially admits that his intent is consistent with the statutory requirements for murder 2.

Yeah I have no doubt that if the jury rules him not guilty of murder two that he's also not guilty of voluntary manslaughter. My question is to the lesser included charge of involuntary manslaughter due to negligence. IOW does self-defense excuse negligence in a homicide.

I guess I'm just having a hard time explaining this. Involuntary manslaughter, by its very definition, is the unintentional killing of a human being. The State can't argue that Mr. Zimmerman's actions were both intentional and not intentional at the same time.

For a good summary of these issues, this Florida attorney has a distilled version here: Jacksonville Manslaughter Lawyer | Florida Aggravated Manslaughter Attorneys | Self Defense Law Firm

 

[testarosa]

Rat How'd your scapin' go?

I got to run.

Happy 4th of July!!!

 

[Sunshine]

aren't we all in one way or another? (Sorry to hear this though). Best friends wife kicked breast cancers ass last year and now dammit she goes in for a biopsy next week because they found two spots on her liver. I hate that fucking disease.

I'm sorry, I am not seeing that anywhere. He's charged with M2, period. No lesser included.

So the state or the defense can include a lesser charge if they if they wish for instruction, but that's not here.

All that's here is an Angela Corey indictment. lol

Affidavit of probable cause for M2

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/hln/www/...2/04/12/zimmerman_probable_cause_document.pdf

@CrazedScotsman started a thread on that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-and-justice-system/301161-question-about-prosecution.html

He asked about something he saw on the tube.

He said that he heard one of the talking heads say that the Prosecutor can ask for lesser included charges, but the defense has to agree or it's a no-go.

True?

I'm going to GUESS it's going to be a motion and they'll argue it.

That's a guess, need [MENTION=21954]Sunshine[/MENTION] for that.

I don't know of any particular rule. However, the reason for the plea bargain is to keep the courts from becoming gridlocked due the number of cases that would have to be heard. It would not serve its intended purpose at this juncture. A plea bargain can be reached in the event of a mistrial. I really doubt that any plea bargaining will be necessary in this trial. The jury would have to be stone deaf, blind, and rolled in asphalt if they can't see the glaring evidence for the defense.

After working on those prisons, I saw enough people who refused to bargain and demanded a 'jury of my peers to clear my name.' Poor fools. Juries generally like to convict. I think if your bargain includes prison time, you should have the trial. If your bargain is for probation, then only a fool would turn it down.

And I know one guy in Nashville who was double crossed on his plea bargain. The DA refused to honor it, tried the man, and sent him to prison.

 

[testarosa]

You are close, but confusing elements of the two types of crime we are discussing. Murder requires intent; manslaughter does not. And intent is not an issue in this case, as Zimmerman intended to kill Martin. Zimmerman's argument essentially admits that his intent is consistent with the statutory requirements for murder 2.

Yeah I have no doubt that if the jury rules him not guilty of murder two that he's also not guilty of voluntary manslaughter. My question is to the lesser included charge of involuntary manslaughter due to negligence. IOW does self-defense excuse negligence in a homicide.

I guess I'm just having a hard time explaining this. Involuntary manslaughter, by its very definition, is the unintentional killing of a human being. The State can't argue that Mr. Zimmerman's actions were both intentional and not intentional at the same time.

For a good summary of these issues, this Florida attorney has a distilled version here: Jacksonville Manslaughter Lawyer | Florida Aggravated Manslaughter Attorneys | Self Defense Law Firm

Awesome!

You take over ;-)

 

[wharfrat]

Yeah I have no doubt that if the jury rules him not guilty of murder two that he's also not guilty of voluntary manslaughter. My question is to the lesser included charge of involuntary manslaughter due to negligence. IOW does self-defense excuse negligence in a homicide.

I guess I'm just having a hard time explaining this. Involuntary manslaughter, by its very definition, is the unintentional killing of a human being. The State can't argue that Mr. Zimmerman's actions were both intentional and not intentional at the same time.

For a good summary of these issues, this Florida attorney has a distilled version here: Jacksonville Manslaughter Lawyer | Florida Aggravated Manslaughter Attorneys | Self Defense Law Firm

Awesome!

You take over ;-)

Not awesome, but thank you ma'am.

 

[25Caliber]

Yes, but the lesser included charge of Involuntary Manslaughter, is not murder. Your point about self-defense and 2nd degree murder do not apply to the lesser charge. That would be like saying you can get away with illegal parking if you killed someone a few days later in self defense. The killing and the parking are two different crimes.

I'm sorry, I am not seeing that anywhere. He's charged with M2, period. No lesser included.

So the state or the defense can include a lesser charge if they if they wish for instruction, but that's not here.

All that's here is an Angela Corey indictment. lol

Affidavit of probable cause for M2

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/hln/www/...2/04/12/zimmerman_probable_cause_document.pdf

The way a lawyer explained it to me... is the lesser charge is understood to be included and will be provided to the jury per instructions from the Judge that will be forthcoming, this unless the Prosecution asks her not to.

Yep...I read the same thing in a couple of places...that in florida the lesser charge of manslaughte is auto included for M2. Here is one of the places I saw it:

http://www.jlellis.net/blog/zimmerman-and-lesser-included-offenses/

Charges Against Zimmerman
In the case of Zimmerman, while the prosecution only listed second degree murder in its charges, all lesser included offenses are assumed to be charged as well. Therefore, the jury can find Zimmerman guilty of second degree murder, or they can find him guilty of related lesser included offenses.

It is actually quite common for a prosecutor to go for the highest level charge she feels she can prove, with the understanding that if she cannot prove the greatest charge, a lower charge might stick with the jury. Now, this isn’t always the case. In some states the prosecutor must specifically state all charges, but Florida allows for automatic inclusion of lesser included offenses.

What are the Included Offenses of Murder in Florida?
First degree murder (premeditated) 782.04(1)
Second degree murder (Depraved mind) 782.04(2) – Zimmerman’s charge
Manslaughter 782.07
Second degree (felony murder) 782.04(3)
Third degree murder (felony) 782.04(4)
Vehicular homicide 782.071