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Originally Posted by hobelim
Yes, and thats great. what I said in my first post is that there is a way to interpret the miracles of Jesus that does not require a suspension of disbelief and are not supernatural demonstrations of reality defying divine power..but they are about something that is true nevertheless.
Hob, why do you think they were called miracles then?
Miracle - an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God. : a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement ...![]()
Originally Posted by hobelim
Yes, and thats great. what I said in my first post is that there is a way to interpret the miracles of Jesus that does not require a suspension of disbelief and are not supernatural demonstrations of reality defying divine power..but they are about something that is true nevertheless.
Hob, why do you think they were called miracles then?
Miracle - an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God. : a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement ...![]()
They were actually originally referred to as signs, signs that Jesus was the awaited messiah who was expected to give sight to the blind, raise the dead, and cure those who were crippled by ignorance and paralyzed by fear by teaching what he learned from God about the figurative nature and hidden subjects of the law encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.
As I said, the fact that the described miracles were not literal depictions of actual events does not make them any less miraculous.
It would be as unusual as a Pope quitting or a lifelong devout Catholic suddenly realizing that they have been involved in false idolatrous religion that at its core worships a lifeless object made by human hands which is a desecration of the teachings of Jesus, the body of Christ, and is an act of pure hatred for God.
Your post had no substance, just a bunch of religious rhetoric. That isn't support for anything.well that was as clear as mud mr rational...
What an asshole! Some truth here and there doesn't make the supernatural events true.
I didn't say supernatural events were literally true....
LOL... apparently you didn't understand my last post either.
Let me dummy it down for you, , fuck off.....
It's not that a person has wealth, but His attitude toward it. One of Christ's followers was the richest man on earth at the time, and that presented no problem for Christ. There is nothing wrong with financial success. Loving success more than Christ is a problem.
You forgot to include the poor broke Clintons, and Obama's buddy George Soros.....
Hob, why do you think they were called miracles then?
Miracle - an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God. : a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement ...![]()
They were actually originally referred to as signs, signs that Jesus was the awaited messiah who was expected to give sight to the blind, raise the dead, and cure those who were crippled by ignorance and paralyzed by fear by teaching what he learned from God about the figurative nature and hidden subjects of the law encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.
As I said, the fact that the described miracles were not literal depictions of actual events does not make them any less miraculous.
It would be as unusual as a Pope quitting or a lifelong devout Catholic suddenly realizing that they have been involved in false idolatrous religion that at its core worships a lifeless object made by human hands which is a desecration of the teachings of Jesus, the body of Christ, and is an act of pure hatred for God.
ROFLMAO!!! THE PHARISEES SURE THOUGHT JESUS HEALED THE SICK!!! Get behind me satan!!!
It's not that a person has wealth, but His attitude toward it. One of Christ's followers was the richest man on earth at the time, and that presented no problem for Christ. There is nothing wrong with financial success. Loving success more than Christ is a problem.
You forgot to include the poor broke Clintons, and Obama's buddy George Soros.....
Oh that's good.
Kochs, Adelson - good wealth because of their "attitude".
Lib's welath - bad and for the same reason?
I've noticed you seem to be a real pro at Cafeteria Christianity.
They were actually originally referred to as signs, signs that Jesus was the awaited messiah who was expected to give sight to the blind, raise the dead, and cure those who were crippled by ignorance and paralyzed by fear by teaching what he learned from God about the figurative nature and hidden subjects of the law encapsulated in the command to eat his flesh.
As I said, the fact that the described miracles were not literal depictions of actual events does not make them any less miraculous.
It would be as unusual as a Pope quitting or a lifelong devout Catholic suddenly realizing that they have been involved in false idolatrous religion that at its core worships a lifeless object made by human hands which is a desecration of the teachings of Jesus, the body of Christ, and is an act of pure hatred for God.
ROFLMAO!!! THE PHARISEES SURE THOUGHT JESUS HEALED THE SICK!!! Get behind me satan!!!
Some sick people were healed, some were not.
You are sick, why hasn't he healed you?
Pontius Pilate unto Claudius, greeting.
There befell of late a matter which I myself brought to light (or made trial of): for the Jews through envy have punished themselves and their posterity with fearful judgements of their own fault; for whereas their fathers had promises (al. had announced unto them) that their God would send them out of heaven his holy one who should of right be called their king, and did promise that he would send him upon earth by a virgin; he, then (or this God of the Hebrews, then), came when I was governor of Judaea, and they beheld him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the palsied, driving devils out of men, raising the dead, rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jews calling him the Son of God: the chief priests therefore, moved with envy against him, took him and delivered him unto me and brought against him one false accusation after another, saying that he was a sorcerer and did things contrary to their law.
But I, believing that these things were so, having scourged him, delivered him unto their will: and they crucified him, and when he was buried they set guards upon him. But while my soldiers watched him he rose again on the third day: yet so much was the malice of the Jews kindled that they gave money to the soldiers, saying: Say ye that his disciples stole away his body. But they, though they took the money, were not able to keep silence concerning that which had come to pass, for they also have testified that they saw him arisen and that they received money from the Jews. And these things have I reported for this cause, lest some other should lie unto thee (lat. lest any lie otherwise) and thou shouldest deem right to believe the false tales of the Jews.
ROFLMAO!!! THE PHARISEES SURE THOUGHT JESUS HEALED THE SICK!!! Get behind me satan!!!
Some sick people were healed, some were not.
You are sick, why hasn't he healed you?
Who wasn't healed? And Gis is right again. The Pharisees saw and knew of the signs and wonders.
And Pontius Pilate was aware of them too. He confirmed that what happened under his watch, was not figurative as you suggest, but flat out, in front of your face, actual and literal.
He wrote a letter to his boss to cover his a** that confirms it:
Pontius Pilate unto Claudius, greeting.
There befell of late a matter which I myself brought to light (or made trial of): for the Jews through envy have punished themselves and their posterity with fearful judgements of their own fault; for whereas their fathers had promises (al. had announced unto them) that their God would send them out of heaven his holy one who should of right be called their king, and did promise that he would send him upon earth by a virgin; he, then (or this God of the Hebrews, then), came when I was governor of Judaea, and they beheld him enlightening the blind, cleansing lepers, healing the palsied, driving devils out of men, raising the dead, rebuking the winds, walking upon the waves of the sea dry-shod, and doing many other wonders, and all the people of the Jews calling him the Son of God: the chief priests therefore, moved with envy against him, took him and delivered him unto me and brought against him one false accusation after another, saying that he was a sorcerer and did things contrary to their law.
But I, believing that these things were so, having scourged him, delivered him unto their will: and they crucified him, and when he was buried they set guards upon him. But while my soldiers watched him he rose again on the third day: yet so much was the malice of the Jews kindled that they gave money to the soldiers, saying: Say ye that his disciples stole away his body. But they, though they took the money, were not able to keep silence concerning that which had come to pass, for they also have testified that they saw him arisen and that they received money from the Jews. And these things have I reported for this cause, lest some other should lie unto thee (lat. lest any lie otherwise) and thou shouldest deem right to believe the false tales of the Jews.
And he was there, so..........
I missed the point there.lol. Ice, are you Bruce?
If Christ didn't exist we wouldn't be call Christians. We'd be ians.
As I said, the Hebrews seemed to take it as ordinary enough to not document it. Maybe they were used to it? You keep mentioning tablets, that has a cultish feel to it. I haven't heard of any such thing. I've asked for links several times now. I guess I'm not worthy of the pearls.Not only did the dead come back to life, but two of them were handed tablets, and told to write down their whole experience. Page after page after page. I'd print the whole thing here for you, but you wouldn't get it.........![]()
You believe there is such a thing as a Christian but not that there was a Christ. Did you miss the first part of the word?
So if the Jews documented it, that would be your big proof?
Still waiting for a lucid response. Certainly the events I mentioned should have been recorded somewhere, especially the historian. Have you looked at the plethora of writing from Josephus? I mean besides the addition of James. There's a reason that was inserted, as it would be suspicious otherwise. Your links to the tablets are where...?Wease? You still with us?
There's a reason the three little pigs are for children. If you need it then so be it. Just don't try to pass it off as proof of anything.A rational mind would not dismiss the entire story of the three little pigs including the teaching conveyed because pigs can't talk.
.
There's a reason the three little pigs are for children. If you need it then so be it. Just don't try to pass it off as proof of anything.A rational mind would not dismiss the entire story of the three little pigs including the teaching conveyed because pigs can't talk.
.
A talking pig, like a talking serpent, is proof that the story is like a fairy tale, and yes, meant for children. There is a reason that it is called the Torah which means instruction, not history.
Can you imagine how screwed up the world would become if people started teaching their children that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about a magical time in the past when pigs could talk and build houses and there was an evil talking wolf lurking out there somewhere always trying to blow your house down?
Thats exactly what happened with scripture and the stories about Jesus when superstitious people completely ignorant of Jewish thought, belief, and expression, got together in 325c.e. and decided that scripture was the literal word of God, a historical record, and the virgin diddling triune god that became a man who floated up into the sky after he was killed because he loved the world so much was unleashed on the world and the resulting 2000 years of insanity and carnage has become our historical record.
There's a reason the three little pigs are for children. If you need it then so be it. Just don't try to pass it off as proof of anything.
A talking pig, like a talking serpent, is proof that the story is like a fairy tale, and yes, meant for children. There is a reason that it is called the Torah which means instruction, not history.
Can you imagine how screwed up the world would become if people started teaching their children that the story of the three pigs was a historical document about a magical time in the past when pigs could talk and build houses and there was an evil talking wolf lurking out there somewhere always trying to blow your house down?
Thats exactly what happened with scripture and the stories about Jesus when superstitious people completely ignorant of Jewish thought, belief, and expression, got together in 325c.e. and decided that scripture was the literal word of God, a historical record, and the virgin diddling triune god that became a man who floated up into the sky after he was killed because he loved the world so much was unleashed on the world and the resulting 2000 years of insanity and carnage has become our historical record.
PATHETIC little FOOL still trying to argue and fight against GOD THE FATHER,SON AND HOLYSPIRIT!!! BEWARE!!! THERE IS A HIGH COST!!!!
I missed the point there.
As I said, the Hebrews seemed to take it as ordinary enough to not document it. Maybe they were used to it? You keep mentioning tablets, that has a cultish feel to it. I haven't heard of any such thing. I've asked for links several times now. I guess I'm not worthy of the pearls.
You believe there is such a thing as a Christian but not that there was a Christ. Did you miss the first part of the word?
So if the Jews documented it, that would be your big proof?
Still waiting for a lucid response. Certainly the events I mentioned should have been recorded somewhere, especially the historian. Have you looked at the plethora of writing from Josephus? I mean besides the addition of James. There's a reason that was inserted, as it would be suspicious otherwise. Your links to the tablets are where...?Wease? You still with us?
I Ananias (Aeneas Copt., Emaus Lat.), the Protector, of praetorian rank, learned in the law, did from the divine scriptures recognize our Lord Jesus Christ and came near to him by faith and was accounted worthy of holy baptism: and I sought out the memorials that were made at that season in the time of our master Jesus Christ, which the Jews deposited with Pontius Pilate, and found the memorials in Hebrew (letters), and by the good pleasure of God I translated them into Greek (letters) for the informing of all them that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:
These be the things which after the cross and passion of the Lord, Nicodemus recorded and delivered unto the high priest and the rest of the Jews: and the same Nicodemus set them forth in Hebrew (letters).
I don't have the remotest clue what you are babbling about.You believe there is such a thing as a Christian but not that there was a Christ. Did you miss the first part of the word?
So if the Jews documented it, that would be your big proof?
Still waiting for a lucid response. Certainly the events I mentioned should have been recorded somewhere, especially the historian. Have you looked at the plethora of writing from Josephus? I mean besides the addition of James. There's a reason that was inserted, as it would be suspicious otherwise. Your links to the tablets are where...?
Odd that you don't question the historical accounts of some, except for any historical documents that pertains to Christ. Then it must be a trick, or something. So now we have the Jews tricking us, the Gentiles tricking us and now the Romans are tricking us with fake letters.
The "Acts of Pilate" was a forgery. You'll apparently believe anything.If Pontius Pilate wrote a letter concerning the events that occurred during his time in Israel, and he was dead 6 years after Christ died, I'm guessing He wrote the letter within 6 years of Christ's death, and probably within two years after he left his position, to explain the events he was railroaded into being a part of. And if Christ hadn't returned, Pilate's letter explaining Pilate's culpability would never have been written. The case was closed until the defendant returned from the grave. That a Roman admitted that his Roman soldiers took a bribe to keep quiet about what they saw, but also testified that they saw Him rise also, put them and Pilate at great risk.
What tablets??? What are you babbling about now? Pilate is your Jewish account?You asked why the Jews didn't record such an event. It seems to be your defense against the event happening at all. I have your Jewish account. From the most fastidious and well respected Jew in the land at the time. In Hebrew. Given to both, Temple and the court of Rome. A word for word account of the trail, including the "tablets" given to the two priests when the were under oath, that recorded their experience from death to life.
I believe Pilate existed and many of the biblical characters. I said the story evolved along the way and your support is well debunked forgeries.When you read Plato's works, do you question whether Plato actually existed? Because there are no originals of Plato's work. The earliest copy of his writings didn't emerge until 1,000 years after His death.
Insane massive wall of text snipped.Let's look at the Jewish account you put so much stalk in.
1st. The Jew who sought out the Hebrew legal testimony of the events from the Roman library:
I Ananias (Aeneas Copt., Emaus Lat.), the Protector, of praetorian rank, learned in the law, did from the divine scriptures recognize our Lord Jesus Christ and came near to him by faith and was accounted worthy of holy baptism: and I sought out the memorials that were made at that season in the time of our master Jesus Christ, which the Jews deposited with Pontius Pilate, and found the memorials in Hebrew (letters), and by the good pleasure of God I translated them into Greek (letters) for the informing of all them that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:
He credits one of the most renown Jewish leaders as the author of the minutes of the trial:
These be the things which after the cross and passion of the Lord, Nicodemus recorded and delivered unto the high priest and the rest of the Jews: and the same Nicodemus set them forth in Hebrew (letters).
PAGE 1-16 of THE MINUTES OF THE TRIAL OF CHRIST FROM THE ORIGINAL HEBREW DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED TO PONTIUS PILATE:
You need to post a link or it's just more unsubstantiated texts.What you believe or don't is less important to me than those who have an ear to hear.
Therefore, when I return, I will continue with what was written on the tablets given to the two formerly dead priests, to record their participation in the return with Christ. It is of importance to those who believe that their soul is eternal.
I thought it started out mentioning that Christians pick and choose which sins to be concerned about. No one asked anyone to prove a damn thing. I pointed out some issues the foundation of the whole thing is built on. And you keep coming up with vague or fraudulent evidence. You don't have to prove anything because you can't. It isn't called a faith for no reason.It started out as more of an issue concerning Jewish law and if we are obligated to keep it. It has long since morphed into a "prove it" thread. I hope no one is offended about the blame flinging between the Jews and the Romans, but ancient records can help bring to life what transpired during those days, and lend credence to our Biblical accounts for non believers.