The three main goals of libertarianism

[P@triot]

Which is why we need to get the profit motive out of taking care of people. Medicare for all or single payer. People are humans, not a P/L analysis to make sure a CEO gets millions a year and stock options.

I see. So medical professionals , hospitals , pharmacies should not get paid

There are tons of non-profit organizations that have paid employees.

I love people like JoeNormal here who simply can't accept that communism is a failed concept which even the former U.S.S.R. gave up on (after they completely collapsed) and which even Fidel Castro accidentally admitted "doesn't work".

Yeah Joe, lets have no profits! Great plan... I mean, sure, profits are what drives the world and has caused the United States to become the ultimate super power and reach new heights the world has never seen, but lets take that away because it "feels good" in your opinion

Just curious bone-head... since profits are what build research facilities, pay for cancer research, and drive people to reach the highest levels of their capabilities, what exactly do you plan to replace profits with to ensure all of those things (and a whole lot more not listed) continue? Oh wait, let me guess, government?

 

[P@triot]

Corporations produce products or services. There are costs involved. The corporations try to externalize as many of those costs as they can because it means more profit for themselves. If one corporation externalizes more costs than another, they have an unfair advantage. Taxes help neutralize that advantage. Then it is up to the consumer to patronize the company that provides the best product for the price with those costs included. See how that works?

This is a profound insight into the mind of the modern day libtard. The fact that you believe taxes are for "neutralizing" perceived advantages and/or punishing people is simply astounding.

Taxes are intended to generate the revenue necessary for government to operate. Nothing more.

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

That you think turning a higher profit than anyone else is an "unfair advantage" is a profound insight into the mind of an uber ignorant communist asshole who is too lazy to compete.

At no point was "lying, cheating, or stealing" ever mentioned in your initial premise, and taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance.

 

[RKMBrown]

I see. So medical professionals , hospitals , pharmacies should not get paid

There are tons of non-profit organizations that have paid employees.

I love people like JoeNormal here who simply can't accept that communism is a failed concept which even the former U.S.S.R. gave up on (after they completely collapsed) and which even Fidel Castro accidentally admitted "doesn't work".

Yeah Joe, lets have no profits! Great plan... I mean, sure, profits are what drives the world and has caused the United States to become the ultimate super power and reach new heights the world has never seen, but lets take that away because it "feels good" in your opinion

Just curious bone-head... since profits are what build research facilities, pay for cancer research, and drive people to reach the highest levels of their capabilities, what exactly do you plan to replace profits with to ensure all of those things (and a whole lot more not listed) continue? Oh wait, let me guess, government?

What does the fact that there are tons of non-profit companies have to do with your rant about Communism?

Are you trying to say that non-profits such as charitable organizations and the tea party organizations are just a bunch of communists?

Our military is a non-profit, and it has medical professionals, are you saying our military is a communist organization?

 

[Contumacious]

This is a profound insight into the mind of the modern day libtard. The fact that you believe taxes are for "neutralizing" perceived advantages and/or punishing people is simply astounding.

Taxes are intended to generate the revenue necessary for government to operate. Nothing more.

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

That you think turning a higher profit than anyone else is an "unfair advantage" is a profound insight into the mind of an uber ignorant communist asshole who is too lazy to compete.

At no point was "lying, cheating, or stealing" ever mentioned in your initial premise, and taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance.

ObamaCare to Increase Health Insurance Premiums by 100-400 Percent, Deficit and Taxes to Skyrocket

Americans can expect individual premiums to become unaffordable. According to a new report released by the House Energy and Commerce Committee, ObamaCare will increase individual health insurance premiums by an average of nearly 100 percent. In some cases, premiums could rise by 400 percent. The committee prepared the report based on internal documents they received from some of the nation's largest health insurance companies. "The average yearly cost for a new customer in the individual market grows from $1,896 to $3,708-a $1,812 cost increase," the report states."

.

 

[JoeNormal]

I see. So medical professionals , hospitals , pharmacies should not get paid

There are tons of non-profit organizations that have paid employees.

I love people like JoeNormal here who simply can't accept that communism is a failed concept which even the former U.S.S.R. gave up on (after they completely collapsed) and which even Fidel Castro accidentally admitted "doesn't work".

Yeah Joe, lets have no profits! Great plan... I mean, sure, profits are what drives the world and has caused the United States to become the ultimate super power and reach new heights the world has never seen, but lets take that away because it "feels good" in your opinion

Just curious bone-head... since profits are what build research facilities, pay for cancer research, and drive people to reach the highest levels of their capabilities, what exactly do you plan to replace profits with to ensure all of those things (and a whole lot more not listed) continue? Oh wait, let me guess, government?

I realize that subtlety of thought is not one of your strengths (is ANY kind of thought one of your strengths?) but there's a long distance between communism and what I would like to see in this country.

You might not have noticed but our for-profit health care system is a joke compared to the rest of the world. So much for for the profit motive improving that stinking pile of shit.

 

[P@triot]

Corporations produce products or services. There are costs involved. The corporations try to externalize as many of those costs as they can because it means more profit for themselves. If one corporation externalizes more costs than another, they have an unfair advantage. Taxes help neutralize that advantage. Then it is up to the consumer to patronize the company that provides the best product for the price with those costs included. See how that works?

This is a profound insight into the mind of the modern day libtard. The fact that you believe taxes are for "neutralizing" perceived advantages and/or punishing people is simply astounding.

Taxes are intended to generate the revenue necessary for government to operate. Nothing more.

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

Taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance. It is already illegal to steal you fuck'n buffoon - one does NOT need to use taxes to battle theft! Lets dumb this down since you are a bit slow...

• Lying - offers no "advantage" what so ever and, in fact, has been proven to be profoundly detrimental to a company. Once a companies reputation has been damaged, they generally go out of business.
  
  
• Cheating - Their are endless laws on the books already that make "cheating" (nice term by the way - what are you, 6 years old?!? Perhaps you can be more specific next time? Oh wait, that's right, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about so you have to use vague terms like "cheating") illegal and a punishable offense. Perhaps when you get old enough, you can read about Sarbanes-Oxley and and an endless host of other laws and regulations to protect against cheating and provide a tool for prosecuting those that do?
  
  
• Stealing - Once again, has been illegal since the beginning of time and already a punishable offense that does not require taxes as a tool for "leveling the playing field". If you steal something, you go to court. If you steal something very expensive, you go to prison. It really is that simple, even for a simpleton like you.

Can you just admit now that your inital premise was that you hate people who are more successful and now you're trying to backpedal and pretend like you meant criminal activity - when in fact you did NOT mean that in any capacity? And even still, taxes are not designed to be a punishment or tool for combating criminal activity you fuck'n moron. God almight you are an embarassment to society...

 

[JoeNormal]

This is a profound insight into the mind of the modern day libtard. The fact that you believe taxes are for "neutralizing" perceived advantages and/or punishing people is simply astounding.

Taxes are intended to generate the revenue necessary for government to operate. Nothing more.

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

That you think turning a higher profit than anyone else is an "unfair advantage" is a profound insight into the mind of an uber ignorant communist asshole who is too lazy to compete.

At no point was "lying, cheating, or stealing" ever mentioned in your initial premise, and taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance.

You know, you really are too fucking stupid to argue with. I personally feel dumber for our brief interactions. I would explain the logical errors in your posts - all of your posts - but those explanations would just glance off that 2 inch thick skull of yours and I'd have wasted more time with you.

 

[JoeNormal]

This is a profound insight into the mind of the modern day libtard. The fact that you believe taxes are for "neutralizing" perceived advantages and/or punishing people is simply astounding.

Taxes are intended to generate the revenue necessary for government to operate. Nothing more.

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

Taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance. It is already illegal to steal you fuck'n buffoon - one does NOT need to use taxes to battle theft! Lets dumb this down since you are a bit slow...

• Lying - offers no "advantage" what so ever and, in fact, has been proven to be profoundly detrimental to a company. What's a companies reputation has been damaged, they generally go out of business.
  
  
• Cheating - Their are endless laws on the books already that make "cheating" (nice term by the way - what are you, 6 years old?!? Perhaps you can be more specific next time? Oh wait, that's right, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about so you have to use vague terms like "cheating") illegal and a punishable offense. Perhaps when you get old enough, you can read about Sarbanes-Oxley and and an endless host of other laws and regulations to protect against cheating and provide a tool for prosecuting those that do?
  
  
• Stealing - Once again, has been illegal since the beginning of time and already a punishable offense that does not require taxes as a tool for "leveling the playing field". If you steal something, you go to court. If you steal something very expensive, you go to prison. It really is that simple, even for a simpleton like you.

Can you just admit now that your inital premise was that you hate people who are more successful and now you're trying to backpedal and pretend like you meant criminal activity - when in fact you did NOT mean that in any capacity? And even still, taxes are not designed to be a punishment or tool for combating criminal activity you fuck'n moron. God almight you are an embarassment to society...

I don't hate RKKMBrown and he's wildly successful. Probably has something to do with creating a product that 'went platinum' that makes me feel he deserved it. I do take issue with administrative and executive types who have done little besides diverting the product of the hard work and creativity of others to themselves. You probaly admire that because that's the only way you could have amounted to shit.

 

[P@triot]

I realize that subtlety of thought is not one of your strengths (is ANY kind of thought one of your strengths?) but there's a long distance between communism and what I would like to see in this country.

You might not have noticed but our for-profit health care system is a joke compared to the rest of the world. So much for for the profit motive improving that stinking pile of shit.

Um, Joe, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but....

We have the absolute finest healthcare in the world. Billionaire oil sheiks come from all over the world just to get basic treatment at the Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic

Canadians fly in for life saving surgery because they are on multi-year waiting lists that they won't live to see from a healthcare system that you want to see implemented here

And people come from all over the world to TRAIN as a physician because we are the unquestioned leader in healthcare on the planet. We have the best equipment/facilities/technology, the best physicians, and the best research resulting in the latest solutions to healthcare issues.


*Note - I cannot wait until the first libtard posts a list showing the U.S. as "13th in this" and "17th in that" in "healthcare". I won't tip my hand now and explain their beloved (and absurd) list because I enjoy humiliating them when they fall for communist propaganda

 

[P@triot]

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

Taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance. It is already illegal to steal you fuck'n buffoon - one does NOT need to use taxes to battle theft! Lets dumb this down since you are a bit slow...

• Lying - offers no "advantage" what so ever and, in fact, has been proven to be profoundly detrimental to a company. What's a companies reputation has been damaged, they generally go out of business.
  
  
• Cheating - Their are endless laws on the books already that make "cheating" (nice term by the way - what are you, 6 years old?!? Perhaps you can be more specific next time? Oh wait, that's right, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about so you have to use vague terms like "cheating") illegal and a punishable offense. Perhaps when you get old enough, you can read about Sarbanes-Oxley and and an endless host of other laws and regulations to protect against cheating and provide a tool for prosecuting those that do?
  
  
• Stealing - Once again, has been illegal since the beginning of time and already a punishable offense that does not require taxes as a tool for "leveling the playing field". If you steal something, you go to court. If you steal something very expensive, you go to prison. It really is that simple, even for a simpleton like you.

Can you just admit now that your inital premise was that you hate people who are more successful and now you're trying to backpedal and pretend like you meant criminal activity - when in fact you did NOT mean that in any capacity? And even still, taxes are not designed to be a punishment or tool for combating criminal activity you fuck'n moron. God almight you are an embarassment to society...

I don't hate RKKMBrown and he's wildly successful. Probably has something to do with creating a product that 'went platinum' that makes me feel he deserved it. I do take issue with administrative and executive types who have done little besides diverting the product of the hard work and creativity of others to themselves. You probaly admire that because that's the only way you could have amounted to shit.

Hey Joe - why are you changing the subject (have to love the fact that it is the second favorite tactic of the libtard when they are losing a debate - right behind falsely accusing someone of "racism")? The issue is, you claim taxes are a tool to "level the playing field" against "lying", "cheating", and "stealing".

I've clearly debunked that asinine statement. What is your response? Don't change the subject! Are you ready to be a big boy, admit you were way off on that statement, and have a real discussion? Or is your pride and ego so large, that you can't admit being wrong - even when it is on the internet and anonymous?

 

[P@triot]

That you think neutralizing unfair advantage is a bad thing is a profound insight into the mind of an ignorant conturd. Lying, cheating and stealing are all fine with you I guess.

That you think turning a higher profit than anyone else is an "unfair advantage" is a profound insight into the mind of an uber ignorant communist asshole who is too lazy to compete.

At no point was "lying, cheating, or stealing" ever mentioned in your initial premise, and taxes do NOT exist to offset or otherwise rectify those issues anyway. The fact that you believe they do or should is an astounding display of ignorance.

You know, you really are too fucking stupid to argue with. I personally feel dumber for our brief interactions. I would explain the logical errors in your posts - all of your posts - but those explanations would just glance off that 2 inch thick skull of yours and I'd have wasted more time with you.

That's the battle cry of someone who has been thoroughly defeated in an argument and realizes they are of an inferior intellect in a debate.

I've debunked every one of your outrageous claims about the purpose of taxes. You've yet to even attempt to debunk anything I've said - much less succeed at doing so. Instead, you just keep repeating childish shit like "you're too dumb to argue with, I'm taking my ball and going home to mommy".

 

[P@triot]

There are tons of non-profit organizations that have paid employees.

I love people like JoeNormal here who simply can't accept that communism is a failed concept which even the former U.S.S.R. gave up on (after they completely collapsed) and which even Fidel Castro accidentally admitted "doesn't work".

Yeah Joe, lets have no profits! Great plan... I mean, sure, profits are what drives the world and has caused the United States to become the ultimate super power and reach new heights the world has never seen, but lets take that away because it "feels good" in your opinion

Just curious bone-head... since profits are what build research facilities, pay for cancer research, and drive people to reach the highest levels of their capabilities, what exactly do you plan to replace profits with to ensure all of those things (and a whole lot more not listed) continue? Oh wait, let me guess, government?

What does the fact that there are tons of non-profit companies have to do with your rant about Communism?

Are you trying to say that non-profits such as charitable organizations and the tea party organizations are just a bunch of communists?

Our military is a non-profit, and it has medical professionals, are you saying our military is a communist organization?

My "rant" about communism stems from the fact that Joe believes profits are "evil" and that taxes should be used to punish anyone who turns a larger profit than anyone else. If that's not the essence of communism, than nothing is.

And will you wing-nuts on the left just stop with the whole military thing as some premise for why everything must be controlled by government? You CANNOT privatize military functions - and if any of you really need to have why explained to you, then God help you.

 

[RKMBrown]

Rot there is some level of truth to the argument that non profits such as non-profit health care centers may be seen and argued as somewhat more "virtuous" than for profit health care centers. That's not to say that both are not virtuous or that there are no bad people in either. The point being that there is some level of virtue to the idea of helping people to help people as opposed to helping people to make a profit. That said there is no law that says health care workers have to forgo all earthly desires and live a spartan life. Further, one can equally argue that forcing health care workers into slavery and requiring they live a spartan life is ... no different than slavery. The key is whether or not force is applied to make someone forgo profits.

Oh and profiting from human misery... yeah you could easily argue that is evil. It's a perspective that has some basis in truth.

 

[Contumacious]

Rot there is some level of truth to the argument that non profits such as non-profit health care centers may be seen and argued as somewhat more "virtuous" than for profit health care centers. .

Really?

How many GI's prefer the - not as socialized "private" doctors and hospitals - as opposed to Veterans Administration Hospitals?

.

 

[JoeNormal]

I love people like JoeNormal here who simply can't accept that communism is a failed concept which even the former U.S.S.R. gave up on (after they completely collapsed) and which even Fidel Castro accidentally admitted "doesn't work".

Yeah Joe, lets have no profits! Great plan... I mean, sure, profits are what drives the world and has caused the United States to become the ultimate super power and reach new heights the world has never seen, but lets take that away because it "feels good" in your opinion

Just curious bone-head... since profits are what build research facilities, pay for cancer research, and drive people to reach the highest levels of their capabilities, what exactly do you plan to replace profits with to ensure all of those things (and a whole lot more not listed) continue? Oh wait, let me guess, government?

What does the fact that there are tons of non-profit companies have to do with your rant about Communism?

Are you trying to say that non-profits such as charitable organizations and the tea party organizations are just a bunch of communists?

Our military is a non-profit, and it has medical professionals, are you saying our military is a communist organization?

My "rant" about communism stems from the fact that Joe believes profits are "evil" and that taxes should be used to punish anyone who turns a larger profit than anyone else. If that's not the essence of communism, than nothing is.

And will you wing-nuts on the left just stop with the whole military thing as some premise for why everything must be controlled by government? You CANNOT privatize military functions - and if any of you really need to have why explained to you, then God help you.

Ok, I think I've been over all this with you before but I could be mistaken. All of you ulta-rightwingers seem the same to me so maybe I'd discussed it with someone else.

I don't see anything wrong with profits as long as:

1) They weren't derived by polluting.
2) They weren't the product of slave labor.
3) They were shared with all who contributed to creating them.
4) The companies that enjoy them realize (and pay for) the role that the government and society in general played in their creation. These include:
a) Keeping the shipping lanes open.
b) Stabilizing unstable yet resource rich areas.
c) Keepng the supply lines flowing
d) Providing infrastructure that industry requires.
e) Creating the basic technologies that many profitable industries have capitalized upon.

Given an incomplete accounting of all of these things, I think that a profit based tax is a way to:
1) Fund the government provided components of this.
2) Keep income disparity from reaching gilded age levels.

So if you're going to level criticism, do it against what I really believe rather than some simplistic straw man.

 

[kwc57]

Which is why we need to get the profit motive out of taking care of people. Medicare for all or single payer. People are humans, not a P/L analysis to make sure a CEO gets millions a year and stock options.

Sure, right after we take the profit motive out of feeding, clothing and sheltering people.

So multimillion dollar packages for health care ceo's are ok but taking care of people isn't? There's less of a profit motive if the government runs the health care system and there's less overhead, although taxes would be higher because there would be more people being taken care of.

Are you under the impression that the government can deliver a better product at a lower price and more effeciently? Really? Do you have other examples of where the government has a better success rate than private industry?

 

[RKMBrown]

Rot there is some level of truth to the argument that non profits such as non-profit health care centers may be seen and argued as somewhat more "virtuous" than for profit health care centers. .

Really?

How many GI's prefer the - not as socialized "private" doctors and hospitals - as opposed to Veterans Administration Hospitals?

.

I think if money is no object most folks would take the best care available, which may or may not be the most expensive. I don't think there is a law that forces the best surgeon to work for a for profit hospital, vs a VA hospital, vs a not for profit private hospital.

Would you turn down the best surgeon just because the price is lower? Many physicians donate their services to free clinics and such in addition to working for hospitals that operate on a profit basis. Do you really think those physicians do a sub-standard job when it's for free? Its charity.. not something to be derided.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

"We constantly hear from Wall Street gangsters and from Republicans and an occasional Democrat that Social Security and Medicare are a form of welfare that we can’t afford, an “unfunded liability.” This is a lie. Social Security is funded with an earmarked tax. People pay for Social Security and Medicare all their working lives. It is a pay-as-you-go system in which the taxes paid by those working fund those who are retired.

Currently these systems are not in deficit."
Paul Craig Roberts - the father of Reaganomics

"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

Even Obama says that Medicare and Medicaid are the biggest drivers of the deficit, and Politifact agrees with hi,

PolitiFact | Obama says Medicare and Medicaid are largest deficit drivers. Yes, over the long term.

Hey Quantum scum bag, did you READ the article YOU posted?

But there's also some explaining to do about Obama's statement.

When he talks about Medicare and Medicaid driving the deficit, he's not talking about 2009. The 2009 deficit will be powered primarily by the economic downturn, both spending on stimulus and bailouts, and lost tax revenues from the lack of economic activity. The Bush tax cuts, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the recent Medicare prescription drug benefit have also created gaps between spending and revenues in recent years.

But Obama's singling out of Medicare and Medicaid is true over a much longer window of time, say, over the next 50 to 75 years.

It isn't an article, it is a puff piece designed to make Obama look good. That doesn't change the fact that you are disagreeing with Obama when you say that we don't have to worry about hose things because they are magically delicious.

 

[dblack]

... if you're going to level criticism, do it against what I really believe rather than some simplistic straw man.

OK

I don't see anything wrong with profits as long as:

1) They weren't derived by polluting.

Agreed.

2) They weren't the product of slave labor.

Agreed. Hasn't this been outlawed in most countries?

3) They were shared with all who contributed to creating them.

By whose accounting? Yours? The government? Or by the voluntary agreement of those contributing?

4) The companies that enjoy them realize (and pay for) the role that the government and society in general played in their creation. These include:
a) Keeping the shipping lanes open.

Yep.

b) Stabilizing unstable yet resource rich areas.

That sounds vague and loaded. What does stabilizing resource rich areas mean??[/quote]

c) Keeping the supply lines flowing

Are you suggesting this is the job of government?

d) Providing infrastructure that industry requires.

Agreed.

e) Creating the basic technologies that many profitable industries have capitalized upon.

Government shouldn't be "creating technologies" for private companies to capitalize on.

Given an incomplete accounting of all of these things, I think that a profit based tax is a way to:
1) Fund the government provided components of this.

Agreed

2) Keep income disparity from reaching gilded age levels.

Vehemently disagree. We grant government the power to tax us in order to fund its legitimate operations. Not as means of manipulating us. This is one of the most insidious abuses of government power in the modern world. It needs to stop.

 

[RKMBrown]

We grant government the power to tax us in order to fund its legitimate operations. Not as means of manipulating us. This is one of the most insidious abuses of government power in the modern world. It needs to stop.

Would that you were correct brother. The 14th amendment provides the government with the right to deprive us of life, liberty, and property as long as they claim it was done with due process.