The true living God

[ding]

If there was only one God, why did he allow so many contradictory religions? (Hey I was only 12.)

But you’re not 12 anymore. Do you have better logic now that you can share?

There is no better logic than that. Everything I've learned since then only confirms it.

I have since studied religion and formed my own thoughts on their history and evolution. All that always leads me back to believe I don't know anything about any god and nobody else does either.

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

It is your perception of God that is in error. If you go looking for the wrong thing you will never find the right thing.

Saying that there is only one true religion limits God, because either He is everything or He is nothing. Like I said further up the thread, I personally believe that all religions are just one facet of the multiple faceted being that is God. And, just like no 2 people can ever see the same rainbow, no 2 people ever know God in the same way. The way one person perceives God is much different than what another person perceives Him as, even if they go to the same church.

And, I can kinda understand Alan's confusion. I was orphaned at 8, and lived in foster families until I ran away at 17 to live with my Grandparents. During that time I was exposed to Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist and Mormon belief systems, and each time, I was told that the people I'd just left didn't believe in God in the right way, so I needed to believe as the current family I was living with did. Pretty heavy trip for a kid.

And, that confusion lasted until my 30's, when I met a dude named Owen who told me that my confusion and irritation was understandable, but if I looked for the similarities rather than the differences in each religion, I'd get a lot further.

That is one of the reasons I believe the multi faceted approach that I do. Jewish and Taoist beliefs are remarkably similar, and the same things that Jesus taught, so did Buddha.

Thank you for that. I hope you don’t believe I am criticizing how AlanG perceived God because I don’t believe he has a perception of God. If he at least did try to form a positive perception of God, then he might just get a glimpse of how everything is connected and works for good. Not to mention the peace that brings.

 

[emilynghiem]

Second, is to challenge myself and my beliefs. I have a good measure of arrogance and I want to know if my views will stand up to someone with very different opinions. Least important is sharing my values, knowledge, and experience. Minds are hard to change.

Thank you alang1216
I agree that if we do have the right approach
this will either reconcile or be compatible/complementary with others.

I find it isn't so much changing people's minds or beliefs, as they will more likely remain with their own native language or cultural mindset. But it is more about changing perceptions or approaches, that we can still work around our differences and agree on principles and solutions that work for both sides.

The BIGGEST change is realizing people will stay as they are. Those on the left or right will keep on that path. Those who are Christian believers or secular nontheists will stick with their ways. And the right solutions will accommodate and use all the diverse knowledge and different ways to serve different purposes under one cohesive plan.

ding I don't see disagreement either.

alang1216 does seek some level of outreach and interaction
with others to confirm what is universally true between them.

Whatever approach you are taking, I find the more you reach out and work to include and understand where others are coming from, they tend to reciprocate and do the same with you.

If you come at people hard edged and already determined what you believe which excludes, rejects or denigrates their position, you tend to receive the same reaction in response.

If you don't expect other people to "change their minds" but respect their ways as they are, they tend to do the same with you.

We can still map out universal truth and solutions this way, even if we are all coming at it from different directions, viewpoints and beliefs, and priorities.

 

[emilynghiem]

Tough to be a Christian is you've never heard of Jesus.

Dear alang1216
It depends what you mean by Christian and Jesus.
If you mean being CONSCIONABLE and living by JUSTICE,
then people have a sense of this justice by CONSCIENCE.

I would agree more with ding
that the natural laws already exist with human nature
independent of anything taught in the Bible or religion.

The part that MAY not come naturally but can seem counter-intuitive
and go against reason is learning the impact, benefits and process of FORGIVENESS.

the normal rational adult mind would expect people to fix things first
before expecting to be forgiven. But Faith in Forgiveness calls for
people to FORGIVE FIRST and then the process can be opened up
to correct problems and reach an understanding AFTER forgiveness takes place.

This seems BACKWARDS to the average person who is conditioned
to protect themselves from harmful people. Our reason and experience
would warn us to reject and stay away from bad people "until it is proven to us"
they are good. So the idea of forgiving first the wrongs people do in the past
so you can fix the problems afterwards requires a "leap of faith."

That is the one area I found that Christian teaching will try to bridge that gap.
And ask people to believe enough to ask for help with forgiveness
without knowing or seeing proof in advance of the benefits.

 

[emilynghiem]

Not really buying this either. Doesn't Jesus claim that the way to the father is through him? If that is true, what of people of other religions, are they out of luck or was John misquoting Jesus? IOW, does everyone, regardless of their religion have an equal shot at heaven? If they do, what is the purpose of religions, if not, the majority of people are doomed.

Yes alang1216
What this means is the way of RESTORATIVE JUSTICE (which Christ Jesus represents)
is what saves Humanity from war, greed, suffering, ills abuse and other destruction we perpetuate ourselves.

Instead of RETRIBUTIVE JUSTICE (which is ANTICHRIST)

Compare in general the
* OT which is full of war and genocide (antichrist,
judgement and punishment, living by the letter of the
law corrupted by greed and RULE BY "Retributive Justice")
* NT which is about renewal, restoration living by LOVE of
Truth, Justice and Peace to RESTORE human relations and society

You can SEE when people take one side of JUSTICE over another.
That is WHY "Jesus" is warned as bringing a TWO EDGED SWORD
that "divides people against each other" (this division shows when
you compare people taking the Restorative approach to Justice
being opposed by people taking the Retributive approach instead)

You have your choice of
* Retributive Justice where you get the judgment you give
* Restorative Justice where you forgive others for you to be forgiven

So THIS explains why some people teach
* God and Jesus as JUDGING and CONDEMNING by Authority of law
* others teach God as LOVE and Jesus as granting Justice with MERCY and CHARITY

alang1216 does this make sense that we have people
and groups taking BOTH these approaches to "Justice"

And WHICH do you believe makes more sense if Jesus means
SALVATION and bringing true Justice and Peace to SAVE HUMANITY.
Which do you find brings REDEMPTION HEALING and RESTORATION
* Look up Restorative Justice to see the results it has had on people
* For Retributive Justice look at wars, bullying in the media and politics,
backbiting and all manner of negative judgement blame and punishment

What makes more sense that Jesus would represent?
Restorative Justice? that brings renewal of relations and healing to humanity?
or
Retributive Justice that brings destruction and more war?

If you can understand why Christ Jesus would mean RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
then you can see what it means for all humanity needing to take
THIS path to restore justice and peace in order to establish
"peace on earth" or the "Kingdom of God".

Does this make more sense?

You make perfect sense. Unfortunately I see very little evidence that the followers of Jesus have made this world a better place because of what Jesus said and did.

You mean besides the vast charities that were created?

Dear ding
Let's just find ONE example that might represent to alang1216
what the transformation process is in Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice
that is so WORLD CHANGING it will make all humanity come to peace globally.

Just one.

I'll offer one, and if alang1216 says no that doesn't show me how this is going to change the world,
then you ding can offer ONE example.

It only takes ONE but it has to be something that makes sense to that person.

I'll try Rachel's Challenge to show how the ripple effect works.
It only takes ONE person, like Rachel, to change her family and then the school communities
they went to, to start a movement around the nation. You can still see the deep IMPACT of
this program, but it doesn't show up in the media.

I'll post some clips that show her mother and brother speaking.
Her dad spoke in Florida after the Parkland shooting but the
media focused on David Hogg and not on people actually
preventing and solving root causes of school shootings as this family works on.

Please watch the VIDEO linked below where you can hear from Craig and Rachel's Mother.
I think she captures the heart of what living as a Christian and sharing Jesus/Restorative Justice is about:
=============================================================================
One of the deepest moving testimonies about personal process and struggle with forgiveness
I can share is CRAIG SCOTT, brother of Rachel Scott shot and killed at Columbine.
What stands out about his outreach, is that he struggles like the average person, so it's easier to relate to.
He's clearly not perfect, and "not a saint like his sister" where people don't think they can be like her!

Craig admits suffering from survivor guilt, snapping and almost attacking his brother after they argued over
changing the TV channel when Craig couldn't stand the sight of television violence anymore.
The incident woke him up, when he realized he was becoming the very thing he hated.

He shares that breaking point (and his commitment to change which he admits is a DAILY STRUGGLE)
when he speaks with his father and family at schools around the country, changing bullying cultures by inviting students to take on "Rachel's Challenge" to answer hatred with kindness, and build a culture of empowerment that has transformed entire communities.

Craig also spoke before Congress on changing the media culture to promote positive stories of CHARACTER
instead of exploiting negative role models and violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVfBDeJeCV4


Columbine Survivor Craig Scott Opens Up About Finding Forgiveness | TODAY
Ahead of the 20th anniversary of the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School, one survivor, Craig Scott, and his mother, Beth, open up to Hoda Kotb about losing Craig’s sister, Rachel, and how they’re finding forgiveness. » Subscribe to TODAY: TODAY » Watch the latest from TODAY: The Latest On TODAY! - YouTube ...
www.youtube.com

https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20080111/news/801110435?template=ampart
Craig said, after the shootings, the hatred he felt for the two killers was tearing him apart.

"It made me into a person I didn't want to be," he said. "It made me more like them."

He fantasized about revenge and felt he "had a right to hate them."

One day, he said, he snapped. He attacked his little brother, putting a knife to his throat and asking him, "Do you want to know what it's like to almost lose your life?"

The moment made him realize the consequences of harboring that anger. Now, he said, if the two boys walked into the room, he wouldn't want revenge; he would want to reach out to them. This is the legacy left to him by his sister.

Craig asked his audience to take the challenge and make a commitment to kill hatred with kindness. He asked them to tell five people that they love how they truly feel, because you never know when it will be your last day with them.

The last words Craig said to his sister were in anger. He asked others not to make the same mistake. At this, mothers hugged their children, husbands took their wives' hands and men wiped their eyes.

A banner outside the high school auditorium with the words "I accept Rachel's Challenge" had been signed by hundreds of students earlier that day.
Students had written messages such as "This changed my life," "Love each other," and "Thank you for opening my eyes."

============
Dear alang1216 if you watch the video and understand the impact this family
has on just individual students and schools, around the country,
then COMPARE that to all the NEGATIVE MEDIA ATTENTION and credit given to Parkland and David Hogg, can you understand the DIFFERENCE and the GREATER IMPACT
of the TRUE message and INFLUENCE on people of the FORGIVENESS approach
to Justice and Peace, rather than the "politicized" propaganda that shows in the
public media but is NOT THE REAL MESSAGE OR SOLUTION.

If you can understand the difference here, that's the difference between
the REAL meaning and message of Justice that JESUS represents,
vs. the false teaching for political control and popularity we see in public.

Thanks for this, I know you're earnest and honest and I don't doubt anything you've said, except "the transformation process is in Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice
that is so WORLD CHANGING it will make all humanity come to peace globally". If it hasn't brought peace yet, it's not going to. Keep up your good works but don't get your hopes up.

^ Dear alang1216
Okay now we're pinpointing one area where faith makes a difference.
if you can see the "connection" between the local and the global.
the individual and the collective.

That's DEFINITELY abstract, on a spiritual/faith based level.
That's taking one case and somehow "extrapolating" on it to apply
toward bigger cases not yet seen or proven, maybe in the future,
but still faith based.

Thanks alang1216
This is ONE area of "perception/faith" we can measure
statistically and see if people's perceptions change.
And under what influence can invoke changes in this area.

Very cool!

 

[alang1216]

The exalted will be humbled and the humble will be exalted. There’s a reason all Hollywood movies have the same basic storyline.

Because they're fiction?

 

[alang1216]

It is your perception of God that is in error. If you go looking for the wrong thing you will never find the right thing.

Maybe so but it has been my experience that people are very resourceful. If they look for something hard enough they will find it. God for sure but also Satan, angels, faked moon landings, ghosts, ET, vampires, Elvis, etc.

 

[ding]

The exalted will be humbled and the humble will be exalted. There’s a reason all Hollywood movies have the same basic storyline.

Because they're fiction?

It’s because the behaviors of virtue are successful behaviors which naturally lead to success. There is nothing fictional about that.

 

[ding]

It is your perception of God that is in error. If you go looking for the wrong thing you will never find the right thing.

Maybe so but it has been my experience that people are very resourceful. If they look for something hard enough they will find it. God for sure but also Satan, angels, faked moon landings, ghosts, ET, vampires, Elvis, etc.

Or no God.

 

[alang1216]

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

Absolutely. Therefore you should have no problem explaining why it is incorrect.

 

[alang1216]

If there was only one God, why did he allow so many contradictory religions? (Hey I was only 12.)

But you’re not 12 anymore. Do you have better logic now that you can share?

There is no better logic than that. Everything I've learned since then only confirms it.

I have since studied religion and formed my own thoughts on their history and evolution. All that always leads me back to believe I don't know anything about any god and nobody else does either.

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

It is your perception of God that is in error. If you go looking for the wrong thing you will never find the right thing.

Saying that there is only one true religion limits God, because either He is everything or He is nothing. Like I said further up the thread, I personally believe that all religions are just one facet of the multiple faceted being that is God. And, just like no 2 people can ever see the same rainbow, no 2 people ever know God in the same way. The way one person perceives God is much different than what another person perceives Him as, even if they go to the same church.

And, I can kinda understand Alan's confusion. I was orphaned at 8, and lived in foster families until I ran away at 17 to live with my Grandparents. During that time I was exposed to Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist and Mormon belief systems, and each time, I was told that the people I'd just left didn't believe in God in the right way, so I needed to believe as the current family I was living with did. Pretty heavy trip for a kid.

And, that confusion lasted until my 30's, when I met a dude named Owen who told me that my confusion and irritation was understandable, but if I looked for the similarities rather than the differences in each religion, I'd get a lot further.

That is one of the reasons I believe the multi faceted approach that I do. Jewish and Taoist beliefs are remarkably similar, and the same things that Jesus taught, so did Buddha.

Yet every religion claims they are the one true religion and they know this because God said so. They have much in common but they also have many differences. If we should ignore parts of a religion, why not all of it? What's God's plan here?

 

[alang1216]

Maybe so but it has been my experience that people are very resourceful. If they look for something hard enough they will find it. God for sure but also Satan, angels, faked moon landings, ghosts, ET, vampires, Elvis, etc.

Or no God.

Or the wrong God.

 

[alang1216]

It’s because the behaviors of virtue are successful behaviors which naturally lead to success. There is nothing fictional about that.

Take off your ideological glasses and open your eyes. The most successful American businessmen are not always the most virtuous, just ask our president.

 

[ding]

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

Absolutely. Therefore you should have no problem explaining why it is incorrect.

Because throughout the history of mankind there has been an overwhelming belief that there is a higher power than man and that we are more than just material. This is the central belief of all religions.

In a diverse world where diversity works for good, it would be unusual if everyone held the exact same view of God. We don't hold the exact same view of God because we are all different and see God in our own unique way. In fact, our nation was founded on this principle. That we should all be free to worship God in the manner that works best for us.

Lastly, what you fail to acknowledge is the core belief that all religions hold which is there is a higher power than man and that we are more than just matter. Man is a spiritual being. All religions promote spirituality. Except of course for the religion of atheism which promotes materialism.

 

[ding]

Maybe so but it has been my experience that people are very resourceful. If they look for something hard enough they will find it. God for sure but also Satan, angels, faked moon landings, ghosts, ET, vampires, Elvis, etc.

Or no God.

Or the wrong God.

Logically there is only one creator.

The argument that there are multiple Gods because there are multiple religions is the argument of a child.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. A position you have never seriously considered.

 

[ding]

It’s because the behaviors of virtue are successful behaviors which naturally lead to success. There is nothing fictional about that.

Take off your ideological glasses and open your eyes. The most successful American businessmen are not always the most virtuous, just ask our president.

How do you behave in your private life?

Then ask yourself why you do.

This should be self evident.

 

[ding]

If there was only one God, why did he allow so many contradictory religions? (Hey I was only 12.)

But you’re not 12 anymore. Do you have better logic now that you can share?

There is no better logic than that. Everything I've learned since then only confirms it.

I have since studied religion and formed my own thoughts on their history and evolution. All that always leads me back to believe I don't know anything about any god and nobody else does either.

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

It is your perception of God that is in error. If you go looking for the wrong thing you will never find the right thing.

Saying that there is only one true religion limits God, because either He is everything or He is nothing. Like I said further up the thread, I personally believe that all religions are just one facet of the multiple faceted being that is God. And, just like no 2 people can ever see the same rainbow, no 2 people ever know God in the same way. The way one person perceives God is much different than what another person perceives Him as, even if they go to the same church.

And, I can kinda understand Alan's confusion. I was orphaned at 8, and lived in foster families until I ran away at 17 to live with my Grandparents. During that time I was exposed to Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist and Mormon belief systems, and each time, I was told that the people I'd just left didn't believe in God in the right way, so I needed to believe as the current family I was living with did. Pretty heavy trip for a kid.

And, that confusion lasted until my 30's, when I met a dude named Owen who told me that my confusion and irritation was understandable, but if I looked for the similarities rather than the differences in each religion, I'd get a lot further.

That is one of the reasons I believe the multi faceted approach that I do. Jewish and Taoist beliefs are remarkably similar, and the same things that Jesus taught, so did Buddha.

Yet every religion claims they are the one true religion and they know this because God said so. They have much in common but they also have many differences. If we should ignore parts of a religion, why not all of it? What's God's plan here?

Actually every religion does not claim they are the one true religion. As a Christian I do not have to disagree with every single thing other religions believe. As an atheist, you do.

 

[alang1216]

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

Absolutely. Therefore you should have no problem explaining why it is incorrect.

Because throughout the history of mankind there has been an overwhelming belief that there is a higher power than man and that we are more than just material. This is the central belief of all religions.

In a diverse world where diversity works for good, it would be unusual if everyone held the exact same view of God. We don't hold the exact same view of God because we are all different and see God in our own unique way. In fact, our nation was founded on this principle. That we should all be free to worship God in the manner that works best for us.

Lastly, what you fail to acknowledge is the core belief that all religions hold which is there is a higher power than man and that we are more than just matter. Man is a spiritual being. All religions promote spirituality. Except of course for the religion of atheism which promotes materialism.

So when Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" was he lying, misquoted, or just mistaken?

 

[alang1216]

Logically there is only one creator.

That's not logical at all. I didn't create my kids all by myself.

The argument that there are multiple Gods because there are multiple religions is the argument of a child.

Most people accepted that there are multiple gods for most of history. And many adults still do.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. A position you have never seriously considered.

Au contraire, I've searched for evidence of 'spirit' but have yet to find any. There is plenty I don' t know and can't explain but that is not the same thing.

 

[alang1216]

Actually every religion does not claim they are the one true religion. As a Christian I do not have to disagree with every single thing other religions believe. As an atheist, you do.

Do you believe that Christianity is the one true religion?

 

[ding]

Saying there can be no God because there are multiple religions is an argument of a twelve year old.

Absolutely. Therefore you should have no problem explaining why it is incorrect.

Because throughout the history of mankind there has been an overwhelming belief that there is a higher power than man and that we are more than just material. This is the central belief of all religions.

In a diverse world where diversity works for good, it would be unusual if everyone held the exact same view of God. We don't hold the exact same view of God because we are all different and see God in our own unique way. In fact, our nation was founded on this principle. That we should all be free to worship God in the manner that works best for us.

Lastly, what you fail to acknowledge is the core belief that all religions hold which is there is a higher power than man and that we are more than just matter. Man is a spiritual being. All religions promote spirituality. Except of course for the religion of atheism which promotes materialism.

So when Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" was he lying, misquoted, or just mistaken?

You misspelled misunderstood.

Now show me all the other religions that make the claim you say they do.