The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Does not mean what you are claiming. Jesus is a God Like figure. He is the first begotten of God. He helps God do many things and he came to earth to die for our sins. He is NOT God. And in John he keeps telling everyone he is NOT God.

um no, John said,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-John 1:1



How much more clear can you get? You have a spirit, soul, and body. Each one of these parts are separate of eachother yet it would be incorect to say that any of these do not make up YOU nor is YOU. If you remove one of these and YOU would not exist. That is why we have to be born again. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.(2 Corinthians 5:17) We are totally new beings when one thing (our spirit) is changed.


And by the way, please show me where John says he is not God.

bump

what do you mean when you write "bump" like that?

 

[John Lemmon]

We don't believe in any "undies thing."

A slight correction to the statement I made earlier. The doctrine of Kolob is found in the Pearl of Great Price, not the Doctrine and covenants. It was revealed by God to Abraham that Kolob is the star closest to the planet God resides.

Ok, who started the undergarment tradition?

I've never heard that story about Abe, is that in the bible? And anyways, it was revealed by god to abe about kolob? Says who? abe?

About your nephi story, you have any real proof about all that? And if they spoke egyptian, why was nobody speaking it when columbus arrived?

 

[Eightball]

um no, John said,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-John 1:1



How much more clear can you get? You have a spirit, soul, and body. Each one of these parts are separate of eachother yet it would be incorect to say that any of these do not make up YOU nor is YOU. If you remove one of these and YOU would not exist. That is why we have to be born again. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.(2 Corinthians 5:17) We are totally new beings when one thing (our spirit) is changed.


And by the way, please show me where John says he is not God.

bump

what do you mean when you write "bump" like that?

"Bump" is a forum term for moving the topic up to the top of the list.

So the word, "Bump" is used solely in a post to activate that topic to the top of the forum list. It's a way of getting more people to notice the topic and join in.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Ok, who started the undergarment tradition?

It was revealed to Joseph Smith by God in the Nauvoo Temple.

I've never heard that story about Abe, is that in the bible?

No. It is found in The Pearl of Great Price. A collection of scriptures we use. The book of Abraham was found in some catacombs in egypt among some mummies. The explorers who found them delivered them to Joseph Smith who translated them into the book of Abraham. The scrolls were originally written by Abraham telling of his dealings and revelations from God.

About your nephi story, you have any real proof about all that?

Proof is what you want to believe. For some people proof is one thing and for some another. What kind of proof do you want to see?

And if they spoke egyptian, why was nobody speaking it when columbus arrived?

Good question. It is stated that their first language was hebrew and that Lehi had instructed his sons in the writing of the egyptians. This was common because Egypt and Israel had established trade connections and alliances between the two nations at that time in 600BC. Lehi no doubt made the camel treks to and fro to trade goods and spices and learned both languages and cultures.

It is doubtful that Egyptian was spoken much in the new world. It was used more as a writing tool because it contained fewer characters and therefore was better for record keeping. Especially since they were trying to keep their histories on metal plates. Hebrew is a painstakingly long writing venture compared to Egyptian.

Now as to your question about why they weren't speaking it when Columbus came:

It is written by Moroni that both the hebrew and the egyptian had been altered over time. Much like our English has morphed into something unrecognizable by it's originators despite the practice of writing never being lost over a thousand years ago.

The same thing happened to the meso-americans. Times change, cultures change, religions change and so do languages. But it is remarkable that the heiroglyphs of meso america bear much resemblance to the egyptian originals in many ways. It's also amazing to note that pre columbian hebrew has been found in select caves.

 

[John Lemmon]

It was revealed to Joseph Smith by God in the Nauvoo Temple.

Ok, so he made it up. Why?

No. It is found in The Pearl of Great Price. A collection of scriptures we use. The book of Abraham was found in some catacombs in egypt among some mummies. The explorers who found them delivered them to Joseph Smith who translated them into the book of Abraham. The scrolls were originally written by Abraham telling of his dealings and revelations from God.

Who wrote the price is right book?
So they discovered the book of abe in egypt and then travelled to the US to give them to some scraggly peasant to translate? That's whacked!

Proof is what you want to believe. For some people proof is one thing and for some another. What kind of proof do you want to see?

Actual tangible without a doubt proof, you tell me what you got.

And if they spoke egyptian, why was nobody speaking it when columbus arrived?

You know, I thought you were going to tell me that the inca hieroglyphics came from their egyptian ones.

 

[HUGGY]

Proof is what you want to believe. For some people proof is one thing and for some another. What kind of proof do you want to see?


That gibberish sounds like the average answer you might get from patients in mental institutions.... from any question....on any subject.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Ok, so he made it up. Why?

The reason God made it up was to give us something to wear to remind us to keep our covenants with God.

Who wrote the price is right book?

To my knowledge I have never heard of such a book? That was off topic.

So they discovered the book of abe in egypt and then travelled to the US to give them to some scraggly peasant to translate?

It's called the book of Abraham. And it was delivered to a well groomed prophet named Joseph Smith.

Actual tangible without a doubt proof, you tell me what you got.

The only without a doubt proof is the one that is foreign to you. The testimony of the Spirit of God in your heart.

You know, I thought you were going to tell me that the inca hieroglyphics came from their egyptian ones.

Inca had no heiroglyphics. That was the Maya.

 

[Avatar4321]

Proof is what you want to believe. For some people proof is one thing and for some another. What kind of proof do you want to see?


That gibberish sounds like the average answer you might get from patients in mental institutions.... from any question....on any subject.

Im sure you have much more time as a mental patient than I do, so Ill take your word for it.

 

[John Lemmon]

The reason God made it up was to give us something to wear to remind us to keep our covenants with God.

Not what I meant, . Jo made it up, otherwise you worship a god that wants you to wear special undies? What a 'tard!

It's called the book of Abraham. And it was delivered to a well groomed prophet named Joseph Smith.

Why did they choose him to give it to? Was he a world reknowned scholar of some sort? Or just luck?

The only without a doubt proof is the one that is foreign to you. The testimony of the Spirit of God in your heart.

So you got no real proof whatsoever? So basically, you take Jo's word that god spoke to him? That's a pretty simpleton belief system you've got going there.

Inca had no heiroglyphics. That was the Maya.

Same dif. So it's not how the maya got them? You almost had tangible proof there.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Not what I meant, . Jo made it up, otherwise you worship a god that wants you to wear special undies? What a 'tard!

Thank you for that. So what?

Why did they choose him to give it to?

Because they had heard of Joseph's ability to translate ancient records and wanted to know his thoughts on them.

Was he a world reknowned scholar of some sort?

Certainly not.

Or just luck?

No. He was given a gift from God to translate.

So you got no real proof whatsoever?

There is a difference between proof and evidence. Evidences are signs that point to a likelihood of something. Proof is iron clad..... But then again things that have been "proven" in the past turned out not to be so. So we need to be careful before we jump to conclusions. We need to examine the evidences and make up our own minds.

So basically, you take Jo's word that god spoke to him?

Definitely not. First I LISTENED to the actual claims made by the man. Then I decided I wanted to know for myself if his claims were true or false. Then I decided to study his life and all the information about him from all sources I could get my hands on. Then after examining all the evidences for and against the man, I decided to ask God the truth of the matter. Through the formula provided in the Bible, I got the spiritual confirmation as well as secular.
I made up my mind that Joseph was telling the truth and that I should listen to anything else he said.
Why is this such a foreign concept to you?

That's a pretty simpleton belief system you've got going there.

Simpleton is as simpleton does.

Same dif. So it's not how the maya got them?

What a stupid statement. Oviously you don't know that the Inca and Maya were completely different cultures with different geography, religion and language. How can you say "same dif"?

And yes, the Mayan heiroglyphs are descended from the reformed egyptian handed down by the Nephite culture, if not the actual reformed egyptian itself.

You almost had tangible proof there. :lol

You have no idea.

 

[John Lemmon]

Not what I meant, . Jo made it up, otherwise you worship a god that wants you to wear special undies? What a 'tard!

Thank you for that. So what?

Well, just think about it, your god wants you to wear special undies? How imbecilic is that?

Why did they choose him to give it to?
Because they had heard of Joseph's ability to translate ancient records and wanted to know his thoughts on them. He was given a gift from God to translate.

So he had translated other documents beforehand? With absolutely no training whatsoever?

There is a difference between proof and evidence. Evidences are signs that point to a likelihood of something. Proof is iron clad..... But then again things that have been "proven" in the past turned out not to be so. So we need to be careful before we jump to conclusions. We need to examine the evidences and make up our own minds.

So no proof, check. Boy, you must really want to believe!

Definitely not. First I LISTENED to the actual claims made by the man. Then I decided I wanted to know for myself if his claims were true or false. Then I decided to study his life and all the information about him from all sources I could get my hands on. Then after examining all the evidences for and against the man, I decided to ask God the truth of the matter. Through the formula provided in the Bible, I got the spiritual confirmation as well as secular.
I made up my mind that Joseph was telling the truth and that I should listen to anything else he said.
Why is this such a foreign concept to you?

What formula in the bible?
It's not a foreign concept, I'm just amazed at how gullible people can be, on seriously, not very many actual facts to go on, and so far you've put forth ZERO facts. like i said, you must really want to believe. A therapist might be able to get to the bottom of it.

And yes, the Mayan heiroglyphs are descended from the reformed egyptian handed down by the Nephite culture, if not the actual reformed egyptian itself.

So, is this statement provable by the scientific community?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well, just think about it, your god wants you to wear special undies? How imbecilic is that?

You word it in a way that makes it sound imbecillic, but you don't understand the reason why we do. How imbecillic is it to poke fun at something you don't understand?

So he had translated other documents beforehand? With absolutely no training whatsoever?

Boy you need to catch up. He translated the entire Book of Mormon. An ancient document from Meso America

So no proof, check. Boy, you must really want to believe!

So no proof for your belief system either? Boy you must really not want to believe.

What formula in the bible?

Ask and ye shall receive. Knock and it shall be opened unto you.

Also in James chapter 1 verse 5:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering, for he that wavereth is as a wave of the sea, tossed to and fro.

It's not a foreign concept, I'm just amazed at how gullible people can be, on seriously, not very many actual facts to go on, and so far you've put forth ZERO facts.

It is a very foreign concept to you because you don't believe in organized religion. If you had read this thread from the beginning, all I have done is put forth fact after fact after fact about our church and it's history as well as archaic facts about ancient cultures in meso-america. Try catching up some time.

And yes, the Mayan heiroglyphs are descended from the reformed egyptian handed down by the Nephite culture, if not the actual reformed egyptian itself.

So, is this statement provable by the scientific community?

It depends on which community you are talking about. There are different communities in the scientific world. When are people like you EVER going to realize that science is always changing and that scientists are CONSTANTLY arguing with each other. When are people like you going to realize that scientists ARE NOT UNITED. Why are they not united? Because there are evidences in support of both sides. It is up for each person to decide for themselves which facts make the most sense to them.

don't you get it? Science is as shaky as you think religion is. I don't have to prove that. I can post dozens of links of scientists arguing with each other. It's common knowledge to most people unlike you.

Michael D. Coe, the worlds foremost meso-american scholar and archaeologist has said that transcontinental oceanic voyages were possible from the old world to the new world pre-columbus.

The Smithsonian still clings to the dogma that all natives of the New World came across the Siberian landbridge. It's been proven that the ancients had the technology but the Smithsonian still won't retract their statement. Dogma junkies? I think so.

So who do you believe? The people you want to believe or the people who give correct information?

 

[John Lemmon]

Yes I understand why you wear the special undies, it's so you never forget what religion you're in (as though you're a buncha 'tards who can't remember anything for more than 5 seconds).

No you're the slow one, I know he translated the book of m I was asking if he had done anything else and if he had a background in the field. I take it the answer is no, his abilities magically appeared even if you don't have the original document that it was translated from.

So no proof for your belief system either? Boy you must really not want to believe.
Actually, my position is that a god has never been proven with actual tangible facts, so YOU are proof of my beliefs.

Ask and ye shall receive... Oh, you mean formula as in pablum.

You've put forward "fact after fact of your church"? Maybe trivial facts, but not hard facts to prove that anything important (plates, nephi...) is true.


You say that the ancients had the technology to come over by sea, but do you have any actual proof that they did? Again, you take the mere possibility and take it as fact for no real reason except that you've been told to by your church.
Micheal Coe according to you says that it's a possibility, he doesn't offer any actual proof either, and he's not saying that they did, according to you. So what exactly are you trying to believe?

 

[Christopher]

Yes I understand why you wear the special undies, it's so you never forget what religion you're in (as though you're a buncha 'tards who can't remember anything for more than 5 seconds).

No, you are showing a lack of understanding. This is not the answer Truthspeaker gave and it is not the reason we wear temple garments. Read his response again.

So no proof for your belief system either? Boy you must really not want to believe.
Actually, my position is that a god has never been proven with actual tangible facts, so YOU are proof of my beliefs.

I understand your position. So, do you think there is nothing of value that we learn outside of the “tangible facts” you describe? Is there any way for husbands to provide tangible proof they love their wife to everyone? That is similar to what you are asking Truthspeaker to do here.

From my experience, I have found that God communicates through love, through our emotions which I believe are tied to our spirit. Love is the most universal language, so it makes sense that He would communicate to us that way and for me the greatest knowledge I have has come through my emotions.

I appreciate that you are attempting to read the Book of Mormon, thank you for that. It shows you at least may have an open mind towards it. What I think you still lack is an open heart. Until you have that, you will not have any evidence of God.

 

[John Lemmon]

So Chris, please enlighten me as to why you wear the special undies, and especially why god would make anyone wear special undies.

God communicates through love So he communicates with animals as well? And when you're banging your woman, god is communicating to her through you? And when you get a woodie when you see your woman naked and feel love for her, what is god trying to say? And if you say to your dog, "I love you Barney", is god trying to tell your dog something?
{I know mods, no family, but I'm talking hypothetically}

do you think there is nothing of value that we learn outside of the “tangible facts”

Your whole religion is based on heresay and apparently made up stuff, since you have no physical proof of anything. What value does heresay have to me? None.

 

[Christopher]

So Chris, please enlighten me as to why you wear the special undies, and especially why god would make anyone wear special undies.

Once again, Truthspeaker already answered this. Perhaps you were just not listening.

God communicates through love So he communicates with animals as well? And when you're banging your woman, god is communicating to her through you? And when you get a woodie when you see your woman naked and feel love for her, what is god trying to say? And if you say to your dog, "I love you Barney", is god trying to tell your dog something?
{I know mods, no family, but I'm talking hypothetically}

I think you and I are talking about a different definition of "love". How old are you again?

do you think there is nothing of value that we learn outside of the “tangible facts”

Your whole religion is based on heresay and apparently made up stuff, since you have no physical proof of anything. What value does heresay have to me? None.

How did this response answer my question?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Yes I understand why you wear the special undies, it's so you never forget what religion you're in (as though you're a buncha 'tards who can't remember anything for more than 5 seconds).

You don't get it. It's not that we can't remember. It's just a way to make sure we never forget. There are times when temptation comes and you could be caught in a moment of weakness. It helps to have a constant reminder.

No you're the slow one, I know he translated the book of m I was asking if he had done anything else and if he had a background in the field. I take it the answer is no, his abilities magically appeared even if you don't have the original document that it was translated from.

Of course he didn't have a background in the field through schooling. It was just known in his community that he had a gift from God. He didn't even have the skills to write his own book, let alone translate ancient languages.

Actually, my position is that a god has never been proven with actual tangible facts, so YOU are proof of my beliefs.

Not very solid proof for you. Especially since I provide lots of evidences in favor of the existence of a God and of Meso American History.

by the way. I said from the first post in the thread. I am not trying to prove my beliefs to anyone. Only explain them. How many times do I have to repeat this statement. Shall we have a friendly wager on an over/under of 150? I'm taking the over.

[

B]Ask and ye shall receive...[/B] Oh, you mean formula as in pablum. :

Nope. just as it says. Pray and ask God. Listen through the fruits of the spirit as described in Galatians chapter 5 verse 22. and Alma chapter 32 verse 22-43. the formulas for getting an answer are described.

You've put forward "fact after fact of your church"? Maybe trivial facts

Facts are facts. They're all cold and hard. There are no trivial facts.

but not hard facts to prove that anything important (plates, nephi...) is true.

If I showed you the gold plates right now and the Smithsonian Institution did a TV show on them and said they were authentic, it still wouldn't make you believe in God any more than would a copy of the original bible. because that's still not proof!

Everything can be twisted for deception or taught as truth. The craftiness of mankind makes it impossible to know for sure. the only way you will ever be convinced of the existence of a God is if you see him with your own two eyes?

By the way, you spend a lot of time looking at pornography don't you? Who's your favorite star? Why do you spend so much time on it? I'll tell you why. Because you can see it with your eyes. You're a visual person that can only be satisfied with things put in front of your eyes. A classic trait of all porn addicts. Happy Trails!

You say that the ancients had the technology to come over by sea, but do you have any actual proof that they did?

The History Channel had a very interesting expose on the myth of Columbus being the first to do a trans-continental voyage by ocean. It has now been shown that several mummies in Egypt have been discovered with Cocoa and tobacco preserved with the mummies. These products have always only been produced in the America's. Scientists started scratching their heads because the carbon dating matched up.

It has recently been discovered by Michael Coe that Aboriginals reached Australia first by boat in a voyage the same distance that would span from the coast of Asia to America over 10,000 years ago.

Mummies have been found in Kentucky, entombed and embalmed in the exact methods of the egyptians. The dating on the mummies was to Book of mormon times. Post 600 BC.

How could this exact technology be replicated if there was no one to teach them. There were people to teach them. They got here by boat.

For 50 years. Science said there were no horses in the Americas before columbus. Many still ignore archaeological facts to the contrary to this day. Horses were here before book of mormon times and they were here during book of mormon times. They died off before columus came but the horses bones, skeletons, teeth and carbon dated digs don't lie.

Some scientists still continue to ignore these facts despite cold hard proof. so stop waving the scientific flag when you don't even know much about science yourself.

Again, you take the mere possibility and take it as fact for no real reason except that you've been told to by your church.

Anyone who knows me knows I don't take anyones word for it "just because."

Micheal Coe according to you says that it's a possibility, he doesn't offer any actual proof either, and he's not saying that they did, according to you. So what exactly are you trying to believe?

He explained that the fact of the Aboriginal journey from Asia to Australia proves that ancient societies had the marine technology to travel the necessary distances. Does it prove that Lehi and his company specifically landed in Meso America? No it doesn't. but there are many other such evidences in meso america itself that demand explanations. such as heiroglyphics, the use of metal plates in ancient meso american writings, pyramids, mummies, bedouin arab characteristics and speeches. Hebrew paintings discovered in America pre columbus. Egyptian figurines/toys found on the coast of el Salvador.

All the little things that by themselves don't prove anything, add up to a lot of "coincidences" that are too much for someone like me to ignore.

 

[THE LIGHT]

bump

what do you mean when you write "bump" like that?

"Bump" is a forum term for moving the topic up to the top of the list.

So the word, "Bump" is used solely in a post to activate that topic to the top of the forum list. It's a way of getting more people to notice the topic and join in.

In this case I am using it to bump a post within a thread rather than retype the post over and over (which I suppose I could do) I just bump it to see if it will ever get an answer.

 

[pare]

Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

The term "signs" easily equates to the terms "proof" and "tangible facts". What say you?

And the disciples came, and said unto him, why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance; but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.

People who receive testimonies and sincerely seek an understanding of the testimonies will find the sense in the words given - the parables will no longer be riddles to them and their knowledge of God will increase.

But of him who will not receive the testimony and will not sincerely seek an understanding, from him shall be taken away even the little understanding which he hath.

I am sure any answer to this would be confirmatory. What say you?

 

[Zona]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Did the entire mindset change about blacks in 78? Did they become equal in their eyes from one day to the next some how?