The Truth about Mormons

[Chimera]

All the Mormons I have met are nice, regular people, so my question is this: Do all Mormons believe the Joseph Smith story literally, or is it treated like a parable? To me, the story seems to have a lot of holes in it, and unlike the Old and New Testaments, or the Koran, which were written thousands of years ago, this story is less than 200 years old. We have reliable written history about that time period, and there seems to have been a lot of skepticism about Joseph Smith.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Retired and Pare are confused as to the nature of God, as are so many modern believers. The run hither and thither searching for a truth that has very plain for a very long time. So let's get them straight.

Jesus Christ is not Jehovah of the Old Testmant.

Jesus is not God the Father.

He is the Son of God, and He came as God in human flesh to this sinful world. Word = God, because Word = Godly Power/Godly Ability.

If one relieves of himself of the delusion of the second paragraph above, the traditional and historical doctrine of the Godhead is quite obvious, sensible, and orthodox. It also fits into a three-in-one Godhead as well as a separate-individuals-as-Godhead.

You have your belief. That's fine. We disagree but not by much.

 

[John Lemmon]

pare, I know that you're happy with your delusions, I just think you guys are hilarious the way you're all so serious in your magic underwear, and THAT'S the truth!!!

But can someone explain what that nephi dude's story has to do with anything, cuz it goes on for quite a while. Is it just a bunch of riddles inside riddles to wash your brain, as pare seems to enjoy?

 

[Truthspeaker]

So 2 out of 3 things that make up a human are invisible?

Yeah, I know you think we're crazy. Wait have I ever said this before?? Is this DeJavu or DecaJavu?

I know exactly what you are saying! There are so many feminine portrayals of Him that it makes me sick!!!
tru, you homophobic? If not, then what's the problem?

I do not fear anyone. But my vision of Jesus is a masculine one and not an effeminate one.

 

[Truthspeaker]

All the Mormons I have met are nice, regular people, so my question is this: Do all Mormons believe the Joseph Smith story literally, or is it treated like a parable? To me, the story seems to have a lot of holes in it, and unlike the Old and New Testaments, or the Koran, which were written thousands of years ago, this story is less than 200 years old. We have reliable written history about that time period, and there seems to have been a lot of skepticism about Joseph Smith.

I'm curious as to which holes you are talking about. When a story is written is irrelevant if the stories are true. For some reason people are a lot more willing to accept an old story before a new one. I never got that. Call me stupid. I just think people should research every claim and decide for themselves. Sure I guess tenure adds some credibility but in the end it doesn't matter how old a testimony is.

And what makes history so reliable when it is always being rewritten? There is always new light being shed on old history. Much of what went on thousands of years ago has been lost to time. We should keep an open mind to new discoveries before we create historical dogmas. Wouldn't you agree?

As for the Joseph Smith story, we believe it literally.

 

[Truthspeaker]

pare, I know that you're happy with your delusions, I just think you guys are hilarious the way you're all so serious in your magic underwear, and THAT'S the truth!!!

But can someone explain what that nephi dude's story has to do with anything, cuz it goes on for quite a while. Is it just a bunch of riddles inside riddles to wash your brain, as pare seems to enjoy?

you are going to have a difficult time understanding the adult content in the Book of Mormon if you continue to have a juvenile mindset. Keep reading. Surely if you are in 1st Nephi all you have gathered is that Nephi and his family believe in God and look forward to the coming of Christ. Much like other Bedouin Arab Jews in their day. Yes the story does go on for a long time. It's a 500 page book. Ever read a 500 page book? If you can't hang in long enough to read it then you haven't been able to hang in long enough to read other good educational books that are 500 pages long. It takes patience and comprehension skills to read an adult book without pictures. Can you finish the book or do you need to go play with your blocks?

 

[John Lemmon]

No, I've never read a 500 page book, I'm a musician, for christ's sake!
If it's such a good book, then they've surely made a movie out of it: Godzilla eats the indians?

So who is the nephi dude. Your first superhero? He sounds serious, he got his special undies on?

 

[THE LIGHT]

.....The word was God....and the word was with God.....

It was both.

Does not mean what you are claiming. Jesus is a God Like figure. He is the first begotten of God. He helps God do many things and he came to earth to die for our sins. He is NOT God. And in John he keeps telling everyone he is NOT God.

um no, John said,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-John 1:1



How much more clear can you get? You have a spirit, soul, and body. Each one of these parts are separate of eachother yet it would be incorect to say that any of these do not make up YOU nor is YOU. If you remove one of these and YOU would not exist. That is why we have to be born again. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.(2 Corinthians 5:17) We are totally new beings when one thing (our spirit) is changed.


And by the way, please show me where John says he is not God.

bump

 

[Truthspeaker]

No, I've never read a 500 page book, I'm a musician, for christ's sake!
If it's such a good book, then they've surely made a movie out of it: Godzilla eats the indians?

So who is the nephi dude. Your first superhero? He sounds serious, he got his special undies on?

There have been movies made by small outfits. Hollywood doesn't want to though because it teaches too many things they don't like. Plus they'd have to get permission through the Church to avoid copyright infringement. There may have been attempts to present screenplays to the leaders of our church but I doubt they would trust the industry to accurately portray the events of the book. Who knows maybe Mel Gibson will take a shot at it one day.

Yeah Godzilla...ok

Keep reading and you will understand who Nephi is. You should be able to tell all of us by now with the amount of reading you've been doing right?

 

[John Lemmon]

Come to think of it, I've read technical manuals of over 500 pages, just not onto fiction like... the bible, the book of Ms, the coran...

So the book opens with nephi, who wasn't wearing his special undies, who started that anyways? Does it mention the undies in the book? On what page?

So if I study the 2 chapters on nephi, what great knowledge will I learn? Aside from a headache, of course.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Come to think of it, I've read technical manuals of over 500 pages, just not onto fiction like... the bible, the book of Ms, the coran...

So the book opens with nephi, who wasn't wearing his special undies, who started that anyways? Does it mention the undies in the book? On what page?

So if I study the 2 chapters on nephi, what great knowledge will I learn? Aside from a headache, of course.

I don't think you are going to learn anything from the book because you classify as one of the people it talks about that "cast aside the things of God as a thing of naught. And trample the Holy One underfoot."

 

[John Lemmon]

So now you're god and you've deemed me unworthy? Gee, nice religion you got there.
So why not answer my questions? What do the nephi chapters explain? Where are the undies mentioned? Where is kolob mentioned in the book?
What's the matter, none of you knobs even know?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Book of Mormon is a liberal-protestant religious book of the 1820s. It fits nicely into the 2nd Great Awakening of that era, when millions of Americans became churched. And several major denominations were founded, including that of the Latter-day Saints.

You will not find the speculative theology -- temple garments, rites, and rituals; plural marriage; adoption of men by men, etc -- beginning until the Nauvoo days more than a decade later.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The Book of Mormon is a liberal-protestant religious book of the 1820s. It fits nicely into the 2nd Great Awakening of that era, when millions of Americans became churched. And several major denominations were founded, including that of the Latter-day Saints.

You will not find the speculative theology -- temple garments, rites, and rituals; plural marriage; adoption of men by men, etc -- beginning until the Nauvoo days more than a decade later.

I think you mean a few minor denominations which are diminishing in size every day.

Not "including that of the Latter Day Saints". The Latter Day Saints were the original and not the breakoff.

The Book of Mormon is anything but Protestant. It is an entirely different claim from any Protestant.

We don't protest the Catholic Church or any other church. We are not reformers either. We haven't tried to reform the catholic church or any other church. Our claim is entirely different. We claim to have the restored church of christ which was missing from the world for many years.

 

[Truthspeaker]

So now you're god and you've deemed me unworthy?

No I'm not. I've deemed you what you really are; disinterested in really wanting to know. Only interested in poking juvenile fun at religious people.

Gee, nice religion you got there.

Thanks, try it sometime.

So why not answer my questions? What do the nephi chapters explain?

I did. The nephi chapters explain the exodus of Lehi and his family from the old world and their inhabitation of the new world. It explains their belief in God and Jesus Christ.

Where are the undies mentioned?

There are no "undies" mentioned

Where is kolob mentioned in the book?

Not in the Book of Mormon

What's the matter, none of you knobs even know?

We know. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants. Go to lds.org and search Kolob if you really want to know.

 

[John Lemmon]

Why are you guys so secretive. You know, but you won't say. Then what the fuck are you doing here, if not to try to explain your religion?
So who started the undies thing? And who came up with the concept of kolob?
So basiclly, you're saying that nephi walked from jerusalem to south america? Or rode some donkeys, took a boat and walked? With how many people? And none of them died? And then they populated the Americas? Or met people there and bred with them?

 

[Eightball]

The truth about Mormans is that Moroni was phoney, though I do not know if that angel was boney.

See Mormons......se what yer missin.......alchohol is friggin awesome.

Necritan:

You have presented some very good comments from the bible that do support the Trinitarian nature of the Judeau/Christian God; that the LDS/Mormon Church does indeed refute.

However, I can think of a lot of other things that are more awesome than alcohol, and as a Christian, I realize that Jesus did have wine.

Your bible background is impressive, yet that very bible does encourage us to put our joy or greatest interest in glorifying God through the actions of our lives.

I think it is admirable that the Mormons stress the non-alcohol theme, but they're motivation in my opinion is "legalistic" and borders on what Jesus dealt with when confronting the Pharisee's of His day. They/Pharisee's were considered the "owners" of the law, and the one's to look up to as the "righteous" living ones, yet their whole motivation of refraining from work on the Sabbath, and the hundreds of do's and don'ts was just to "please" God constantly. "Grace" of God was foreign to them totally. Grace undergirds the "true" Christian faith. Without it, the Christian faith would be one of pride, and Pharisee=ism at it's core. What keeps true bible Christians from being prideful, is "grace". Grace = unmerited favor from God...........Yet being sinners, He extended His mercy to us never the less.

Alcohol is Awesome: Well, it certainly relieves temporary tension, and can be good for the stomach if taken in small dosages.........That's actually in the bible; the stomach thing. Paul wrote that.

Yet, we Christians have a testimony, in our very lives before the world, whether that portion of the world is Mormon, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, whatever. Paul said that when I am weak, He is strong; then he goes on to say that he/Paul rejoices in His weaknesses, as this is the times in his life when God becomes displayed through his life.

It's not unlike the old saying, "God is my co-pilot". No doubt, many Christians would say that, yet in reality, God should be the pilot, and we shouldn't even be the co-pilot, but in reality we belong in a passenger seat. It is God who takes us for the "ride" or is the arbiter of our lives; at least He should be.

Being a passenger means that we relinquish control, 100% of the time with our lives, and hand it over in trust to Him who knew us before we were even knitted in our mother's womb. I realize it's easier said than done, but the "awesomeness" of life is there, not the other things, that are temporary and fleeting.

Jesus said that He had a well of water that never went dry, and would quench one's thirst, once-and-for-all. The Samaritan woman at the well was dumbfounded, yet bewildered and excited. She ran to her village to tell everyone that she met a man who has water that would quench the thirst forever. We do know that Jesus' well of water was metaphorical, and meant the Holy Spirit, that indwells every true believer. The H.S. is the ultimate Comforter of mankind. It is trully "awesome". When Peter and the other disciples were accused of being drunk on Pentacost, it was the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit, that caused them to be so joyful. They were accused of being drunk. In essence they were "drunk", or overcome with the joy of God's reality/presence in their lives. That's why Peter spoke out with such authority to the crowds, and literally thousands repented and received salvation/Holy Spirit.

Anyway, Necritan; keep up the good work, but remember that you are a special vessel, not made with human hands, but are a Royal Ambassador, created to bring glory to God.

 

[THE LIGHT]

.....The word was God....and the word was with God.....

It was both.

Does not mean what you are claiming. Jesus is a God Like figure. He is the first begotten of God. He helps God do many things and he came to earth to die for our sins. He is NOT God. And in John he keeps telling everyone he is NOT God.

um no, John said,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
-John 1:1



How much more clear can you get? You have a spirit, soul, and body. Each one of these parts are separate of eachother yet it would be incorect to say that any of these do not make up YOU nor is YOU. If you remove one of these and YOU would not exist. That is why we have to be born again. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.(2 Corinthians 5:17) We are totally new beings when one thing (our spirit) is changed.


And by the way, please show me where John says he is not God.

bump

 

[Truthspeaker]

Why are you guys so secretive. You know, but you won't say.

I've been pretty clear. I've said from the beginning. Ask any questions you want. I'll answer them all except the questions about temple ordinances. It is disrespectful to talk about them outside the temple. If you really want you can join the church if you want to know the exact procedures that happen in the temple. The summary of which I have given many times already:
The temple ordinances are tokens symbols and speeches designed to help us remember to keep the commandments of God on a daily basis. If I told them all to you in detail you would come to the same conclusion.

Then what the fuck are you doing here, if not to try to explain your religion?

I am trying to explain my religion. You are the only one who is failing to comprehend the words I'm saying.

So who started the undies thing?

We don't believe in any "undies thing."

And who came up with the concept of kolob?

A slight correction to the statement I made earlier. The doctrine of Kolob is found in the Pearl of Great Price, not the Doctrine and covenants. It was revealed by God to Abraham that Kolob is the star closest to the planet God resides.

So basiclly, you're saying that nephi walked from jerusalem to south america?

Statements like these do not improve your image. Like I said before...mmmmmmmm... about a hundred times before your kind came onto the thread. They got there in boats. Another reason I tell you to keep reading the book of mormon if you are seriously interested Their journey is documented. they walked and rode camels through the arabian desert to the arabian peninsula, built a ship there and sailed to meso america.

With how many people?

At least 26 people are known to have either departed or been born before the voyage from the desert peninsula. Nephi, Sam, Laman, Lemuel and the 5 sons of Ishmael and each of their wives. The patriarchs Lehi and Ishmael and their wives(Sariah was Lehi's wife). Jacob and Joseph were born to Lehi and Sariah in the desert journey. They mentioned that children were born to many of the couples but we do not know how many..
So it is at least at a bare minimum 30 people that took the voyage across the sea.

And none of them died?

It is written that some came close to death, but since they were all experts at desert survival being bedouin arabs, plus they were guided by the hand of God, it is written that none of them actually died during the voyage.

And then they populated the Americas?

It is not stated that they populated the entire Americas. They were not the first ones there. But they did populate much of Meso america. At the time of their arrival there were remnants of the Jaredite nation and very likely other peoples not related to either nation. There is still much to be discovered. One thing is certain. The Americas were a melting pot long before Columbus.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The truth about Mormans is that Moroni was phoney, though I do not know if that angel was boney.

See Mormons......se what yer missin.......alchohol is friggin awesome.

Necritan:

You have presented some very good comments from the bible that do support the Trinitarian nature of the Judeau/Christian God; that the LDS/Mormon Church does indeed refute.

However, I can think of a lot of other things that are more awesome than alcohol, and as a Christian, I realize that Jesus did have wine.

Your bible background is impressive, yet that very bible does encourage us to put our joy or greatest interest in glorifying God through the actions of our lives.

I think it is admirable that the Mormons stress the non-alcohol theme, but they're motivation in my opinion is "legalistic" and borders on what Jesus dealt with when confronting the Pharisee's of His day. They/Pharisee's were considered the "owners" of the law, and the one's to look up to as the "righteous" living ones, yet their whole motivation of refraining from work on the Sabbath, and the hundreds of do's and don'ts was just to "please" God constantly. "Grace" of God was foreign to them totally. Grace undergirds the "true" Christian faith. Without it, the Christian faith would be one of pride, and Pharisee=ism at it's core. What keeps true bible Christians from being prideful, is "grace". Grace = unmerited favor from God...........Yet being sinners, He extended His mercy to us never the less.

Alcohol is Awesome: Well, it certainly relieves temporary tension, and can be good for the stomach if taken in small dosages.........That's actually in the bible; the stomach thing. Paul wrote that.

Yet, we Christians have a testimony, in our very lives before the world, whether that portion of the world is Mormon, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, whatever. Paul said that when I am weak, He is strong; then he goes on to say that he/Paul rejoices in His weaknesses, as this is the times in his life when God becomes displayed through his life.

It's not unlike the old saying, "God is my co-pilot". No doubt, many Christians would say that, yet in reality, God should be the pilot, and we shouldn't even be the co-pilot, but in reality we belong in a passenger seat. It is God who takes us for the "ride" or is the arbiter of our lives; at least He should be.

Being a passenger means that we relinquish control, 100% of the time with our lives, and hand it over in trust to Him who knew us before we were even knitted in our mother's womb. I realize it's easier said than done, but the "awesomeness" of life is there, not the other things, that are temporary and fleeting.

Jesus said that He had a well of water that never went dry, and would quench one's thirst, once-and-for-all. The Samaritan woman at the well was dumbfounded, yet bewildered and excited. She ran to her village to tell everyone that she met a man who has water that would quench the thirst forever. We do know that Jesus' well of water was metaphorical, and meant the Holy Spirit, that indwells every true believer. The H.S. is the ultimate Comforter of mankind. It is trully "awesome". When Peter and the other disciples were accused of being drunk on Pentacost, it was the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit, that caused them to be so joyful. They were accused of being drunk. In essence they were "drunk", or overcome with the joy of God's reality/presence in their lives. That's why Peter spoke out with such authority to the crowds, and literally thousands repented and received salvation/Holy Spirit.

Anyway, Necritan; keep up the good work, but remember that you are a special vessel, not made with human hands, but are a Royal Ambassador, created to bring glory to God.

Well 8-ball this is one of your posts I truly respect. You have stated your beliefs and i respect them. We do have some disagreements but that's ok. I agree with much of what you say.
One thing I do need to clarify however is that it is unfair to compare us with the Pharisees because we believe in Jesus Christ first and foremost, who was their number one enemy. The Pharisees acted out secularisms to APPEAR to be pious. All the while not doing anything to help the poor, or feed the hungry or do any of the things that really matter, like obeying God's commandments.

We too repeat the words of Jesus." The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
As for alcohol, we don't drink it because of the law of health given in the doctrine and covenants section 88 which describes the proper use of alcohol. Firmented wine is much different than say vodka or beer. The wine used back in the day had two meanings, grape juice and firmented wine. The Bible does not often clarify which it is referring to. sometimes it says "strong drink". sometimes just plain wine. But since "drunkenness" is forbidden in Galatians chapter 5, it would only make sense to avoid something that would make you drunk. This is one of the reasons that we believe in modern revelation. To clarify such things to the modern Christian.


Also( Somehow I think I've said this before), grace is not a foreign concept to us. We believe that NO ONE can be saved without the GRACE of Jesus Christ.

Another minor disagreement we have is that God doesn't want to choose for us. He wants us to love Him enough to choose to follow Him. He wants us to take His advice via the Holy Spirit. Freedom is something He has given us by grace and wants us all to use. The one thing we truly have that God does not have is our freedom to choose. God could take it if he wanted to but he would not be God if He did; Because He cannot go back on His word, which gives all men the freedom to choose to follow Him. Therefore the only gift we can give Him that he doesn't have is our dedication to Him.
But again I must say that is a minor difference of opinion between the two of us.