The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/922153-post221.html

 

[Truthspeaker]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/922153-post223.html

 

[JakeStarkey]

LDS apostle under fire for civil-rights analogy - Salt Lake Tribune

This is what I mean, T'speaker, about running your mouth about what you don't understand.

I am through with your ignorance for a while.

 

[Zona]

1978, blacks were considered to not be sub human. Good for the mormons. Of course they had to be threatened to tax away their tax exemption away, but they did it....they actually said blacks were human from then on. Good for them.

Zona, the Book of Mormon was printed in 1830, not 1978. The Book itself says "all are alike unto God. Male and female, black and white, bond and free...."

OH really?


JAN-4, Utah became the 45th state in the union.
Pressure was also felt by the LDS during the 1970's because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage.


Racism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)

Racism is very ugly and sometimes hard to face, I understand this.

 

[Truthspeaker]

LDS apostle under fire for civil-rights analogy - Salt Lake Tribune

This is what I mean, T'speaker, about running your mouth about what you don't understand.

I am through with your ignorance for a while.

You're kidding right?

You change the subject to Prop 8?

Since you're changing subjects, I'll change with you. We don't apologize for our values. They are given to us from God. We should be allowed to believe that.

You are upset with Elder Oaks because he says that the persecution is similar to what happened to blacks in the south. Well, of course we all know that these protests were not to that extreme. Elder Oaks knows that as well as anyone. But these protests are about as extreme as can be gotten away with in today's society. If we didn't have tougher laws in place to protect our freedoms it would be just as bad and will probably get worse.

But wait, the "professor" who calls out Oaks by asking how many girls were burned in our churches, or how many men were hanged, castrated and defiled in such a disgusting manner as happened to blacks in the south, fails to realize that much of the same happened to us in the 1830's thru 40's. He should have his degree stripped from him for his own lack of study. The Ku Klux Klan and the Missouri black painted mobs were one and the same as far as I'm concerned.

You wanna talk gory details you think we're ignorant of?
Do use your powers of sophistry to imagine what it would look and feel like to be tarred black from head to toe in the same boiling substance....Think of it drying and adhering itself like spackle or paste. Imagine after the 3rd degree burns trying to tear it off with large chunks of hair and skin coming with it, opening up wounds to exposure and excessive bleeding in an era without much medical knowledge. Think of the women murdered and raped and the children executed by double barrel shotguns. Their justification? "T'wer better they dead then that they growed up to be them damned mormons."~mobster's quote
Think of wives and children having their homes burned in the snowy winter and forced to escape and walk miles to the next shelter with babies in their arms. Think of frostbite and lost limbs. The casualities faced on the journey west to Utah were a direct result of the savagery in missouri. Think of the men hacked to pieces even after they were dead and buried. The people who died of disease and exposure due to legislated eviction from the state were literally murdered by the mob who chased them out. We know about whippings. We know about lynchings. We know about murder and rape. We know about being ripped from our families and friends. We know about the government issuing an extermination order as if we were roaches. WE DO KNOW. AND YOU BETTER LOOK YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR BEFORE YOU CALL SOMEONE ELSE IGNORANT.

Oh but that was a long time ago right? We never faced such oppression ourselves right? Why should we feel we can relate to them?

Wait a second! You can't say those exact same things to a black person right? Yes you can, and so can we.

We know brutality. Were it not for the pioneers among the blacks and people like the Mormons, we wouldn't have laws in place to protect us from mobs and rioters. So in very deed Elder Oaks knows that the same persecuting spirit that possessed the mobs in the south and in missouri was present in these demonstrations against the mormons during prop 8.

Why don't you go educate yourself(that means gain knowledge for said self).

When we compare our persecution with the persecution of blacks or indians or jews or any other group of God's children you had better believe it with God and Jesus as our witness that we know what we're talking about and that ignorant is as ignorant does.

 

[Truthspeaker]

JAN-4, Utah became the 45th state in the union.
Pressure was also felt by the LDS during the 1970's because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage.


Racism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)

Racism is very ugly and sometimes hard to face, I understand this.

"I feel to ache in my heart for the children of that race. The blessings of God are sure to come upon them in the due time of the Lord. The world is not ready for them to have the priesthood as yet, but the time soon cometh that the first may be last and the last may be first."
~Joseph Smith Jr.

It is doubtless that many in Israel felt the same way when told not to preach the Gospel to the gentiles or the heathen because the time was not right. This utterance by Joseph is more a prophecy than anything.
We all knew it was coming eventually. You see God is a God of convenience. He is a God of wisdom and temperance. He knows all things from the beginning. He knew that the time wasn't right for whatever reason. I'm convinced part of that reason is that it would have brought further persecution upon the church more than it could withstand. You see Missouri was a slave state and weren't too fond of Mormons or blacks. We were there with the blacks. We knew what it was like. The candidacy of Joseph Smith for President only further infuriated the mob with his daring new proposal to buy all the slaves and set them free. You can only imagine how well this went with Missourians.

Don't give me that "institutionalized racism" crap. We could care less who BYU plays on the football field.

 

[Zona]

JAN-4, Utah became the 45th state in the union.
Pressure was also felt by the LDS during the 1970's because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage.


Racism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)

Racism is very ugly and sometimes hard to face, I understand this.

"I feel to ache in my heart for the children of that race. The blessings of God are sure to come upon them in the due time of the Lord. The world is not ready for them to have the priesthood as yet, but the time soon cometh that the first may be last and the last may be first."
~Joseph Smith Jr.

Then suddenly in 1978, now is the time..right when they threatened the mormon tax exemption. They suddenly saw the light, and said, yes, blacks are not sub human...now please can we stay tax exempt? Pretty please.

It was preached by your guy that blacks were sub human until then. the day after that, I am sure all feelings of racial superiority were non existent...right?

Racism is a a ugly thing. Seriously.

 

[Truthspeaker]

JAN-4, Utah became the 45th state in the union.
Pressure was also felt by the LDS during the 1970's because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage.


Racism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons)

Racism is very ugly and sometimes hard to face, I understand this.

"I feel to ache in my heart for the children of that race. The blessings of God are sure to come upon them in the due time of the Lord. The world is not ready for them to have the priesthood as yet, but the time soon cometh that the first may be last and the last may be first."
~Joseph Smith Jr.

Then suddenly in 1978, now is the time..right when they threatened the mormon tax exemption. They suddenly saw the light, and said, yes, blacks are not sub human...now please can we stay tax exempt? Pretty please.

It was preached by your guy that blacks were sub human until then. the day after that, I am sure all feelings of racial superiority were non existent...right?

Racism is a a ugly thing. Seriously.

It's so easy to call someone a racist. It takes true stupidity to ignore facts to the contrary as well as history in the 1830's up to the late 70's where the general populous was far more racist than any Mormon teaching.
As I said before. God reveals things in his own due time. The seed of Cain were ready for the priesthood. It was another sign of the times to usher in the second coming of Christ. But all this religious mumbo just goes way over your head right?

 

[Zona]

"I feel to ache in my heart for the children of that race. The blessings of God are sure to come upon them in the due time of the Lord. The world is not ready for them to have the priesthood as yet, but the time soon cometh that the first may be last and the last may be first."
~Joseph Smith Jr.

Then suddenly in 1978, now is the time..right when they threatened the mormon tax exemption. They suddenly saw the light, and said, yes, blacks are not sub human...now please can we stay tax exempt? Pretty please.

It was preached by your guy that blacks were sub human until then. the day after that, I am sure all feelings of racial superiority were non existent...right?

Racism is a a ugly thing. Seriously.

It's so easy to call someone a racist. It takes true stupidity to ignore facts to the contrary as well as history in the 1830's up to the late 70's where the general populous was far more racist than any Mormon teaching.
As I said before. God reveals things in his own due time. The seed of Cain were ready for the priesthood. It was another sign of the times to usher in the second coming of Christ. But all this religious mumbo just goes way over your head right?

Perhaps it did go over my head. Stop me when I am wrong..in 1978, suddenly and after being threatened to lose tax exemption, Blacks were considered to not be sub human.

Its not complicated at all really, FREAKING 1978, they became human freaking beings in your religion. Go reference any religion you want, ITS FREAKING 1978 when your people saw the light (because of a threat)...

 

[Truthspeaker]

I've always wondered, do Mormon women shave their underarms and legs, or is that frowned upon (like in France, for example)?

there is no religious doctrine on shaving other than it's part of the men's leadership dress code currently.

 

[Skeptik]

If there is anything in church literature at any time indicating that the Mormon church thought that blacks were "sub human", I've never seen it.

Have you, Zona, or are you just saying that?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truthspeaker condemned himself with his own words, fulfilling biblical standards. It is very hard to ignore the facts, but 'Speak does it with ease.

Fact, Mormonism was racist, and where it still follows the royal Abrahamic priesthood by lineage, it still is racist. Simply refer to the hundreds of thousands of patriarchal blessings. Note that almost everyone refers to which tribe of Israel the recipient is noted to beloning, either by blood or by adoption, which immediately leads to a change in blood.

Yes, President Brigham Young was racist. Go online to the Journal of Discourses and do some reading.

Yes, President John Taylor was racist. Go online to the Journal of Discourses and do some reading.

Yes, First Counselor George Q. Cannon was racist. Go online to the Journal of Discourses and do some reading.

Yes, President of the Quorum of Twelve Rudger Clawson was racist. Go online and search his talks and sermons.

Yes, Apostles Mark E. Peterson and Delbert Stapely (contemporaries of that good man President Spencer W. Kimball) were racist. Go online and search their talks and sermons.

Don't believe me or T'Speaker. Go do your own research, and you will find out the truth.

 

[Eightball]

Oh, by the way......................? The Christian Bible says:

Barbarian, Scythian, slave—all are united with us in Christ Jesus (Col..3:11)

Mormon Doctrine Totally Disagrees with Collosians 3:11 The Levitical Priesthood was not based on race, but on a clan or family that came from the loins of Levi, one of Jacob's sons. God designated that those who would be in charge of all Temple rites were to be decendents of Levi, or Levites. They were not designated according to facial features, skin color etc.......nor were they Priests because God saw them as specially blessed over Levi's other brothers and their decendents. In fact God designated special duties/responsibilities for every one of Jacob's sons and their progeny. Not once in the bible will you see any connection between God designating a priesthood position and the physical/racial makeup of that person.

Many like to say that Paul condoned slavery by not talking against it. That is far from it. Paul designated special letters to Christian slave owners to treat their slaves with love, and fairness, and also told the slaves to do their work unto God, not their slave owner. I.E. Glorify God through obediance. Did Paul dig slavery as good. I doubt it if you read his Epistles. In fact Paul referred himself a "slave" of Christ. "When I am weak He/God is strong." So He/Paul saw his infirmities as opportunities for the God to work His strength through Paul's weak physical, mental, emotional state....and believe me, Paul endured and went through so many floggings, imprisonments, etc...........It would make your head spin.

Dear Joseph Smith Jr. gets rightly imprisoned for attempting to destroy a town/news printing press for printing articles not favorable to him and his followers in Illinois, and he shoots it out with an irate crowd and earns martyrdom. Christ went like a Lamb to slaughter.......In total humility, yet total control and strength of God Almighty. Jesus did not condemn those who crucified Him, but prayed to His Father for their forgiveness.

Blacks are Inferior

Church leader Bruce R. McConkie, on the denial of equality for Africans:

“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)

Not Inferior?



Future President of the Mormon church, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness HE BECAME THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE.”
(The Way to Perfection, page 101)



More from Smith:

“There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.”
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61)

Blacks Have Dishonorable Bodies

Apostle Orson Pratt taught that some people don't receive an "honourable body" because they sided with the Devil in a previous life:

“At the time the devil was cast out of heaven, there were some spirits that did not know who had authority, whether God or the devil. They consequently did NOT TAKE A VERY ACTIVE PART ON EITHER SIDE, BUT RATHER THOUGHT THE DEVIL HAD BEEN ABUSED, AND CONSIDERED HE HAD RATHER THE BEST CLAIM TO THE GOVERNMENT. These spirits were not considered bad enough to be cast down to hell, and never have bodies; neither were they CONSIDERED WORTHY OF AN HONOURABLE BODY on this earth: but it came to pass that Ham, the son of Noah, saw the nakedness of his father while he lay drunk in his tent, and he with 'wicked joy,' ran like Rigdon, and made the wonderful disclosure to his brethren; while Shem and Japheth took a garment, with pity and compassion, laid it upon their shoulders—went backwards and covered their father,... The conduct of the former BROUGHT THE CURSE OF SLAVERY upon him, while that of the latter secured blessings, jurisdiction, power and dominion....Canaan, the son of Ham, received the curse; for Noah wished to place the curse as remote from himself as possible. He therefore placed it upon his grandson instead of his son. Now, it would seem cruel to force PURE celestial spirits into the world through the lineage of Canaan that had been cursed. This would be ill appropriate, putting the PRECIOUS and VILE together. But those spirits in heaven that rather LENT AN INFLUENCE to the DEVIL, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies information concerning the doctrine of pre-existence: “Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not in the ACCURSED lineage of Canaan; and hence the NEGRO or African race.”
(Speech of Elder Orson Hyde, delivered before the High Priests' Quorum, in Nauvoo. April 27th, 1845, printed in Liverpool, page 30)

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthspeaker condemned himself with his own words, fulfilling biblical standards. It is very hard to ignore the facts, but 'Speak does it with ease.

This is pure spin on your part because I have called you out to display what facts I have ignored. Whatever you have presented I have specifically answered with our side of the story. What's wrong with you?

Fact, Mormonism was racist, and where it still follows the royal Abrahamic priesthood by lineage, it still is racist.

First you just made a matter-of-fact statement with out any examples to back it up as if we're supposed to just accept it without questioning it. Here's all the dictionary.com definitions for racist:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. (We never did that.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. (We never did that. The priesthood policy did not teach inferiority of the black race. It only denied the lineage of Cain access to the priesthood for a limited time.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.We've certainly never had hatred or intolerance of another race. Sinful individuals don't count. If they do so they are in opposition to the doctrine of the church.

Simply refer to the hundreds of thousands of patriarchal blessings. Note that almost everyone refers to which tribe of Israel the recipient is noted to beloning, either by blood or by adoption, which immediately leads to a change in blood.

If you are calling us racist for this, then you are claiming God was a racist. If you claim God is a racist, then we can never get anywhwere because you probably believe in a fair and loving God or no God at all.

Yes, President Brigham Young was racist. Go online to the Journal of Discourses and do some reading.

I've already read all his so-called racist statements. It's very hard for any person in this day and age to image ANYONE from that day was NOT a racist. Contextual knowledge will set you free when reading quotes from a different era.

Yes, President John Taylor was racist. Go online to the Journal of Discourses and do some reading.

I've already read all his so-called racist statements. It's very hard for any person in this day and age to image ANYONE from that day was NOT a racist. Contextual knowledge will set you free when reading quotes from a different era.

Yes, First Counselor George Q. Cannon was racist. Go online to the Journal of Discourses and do some reading.

I've already read all his so-called racist statements. It's very hard for any person in this day and age to image ANYONE from that day was NOT a racist. Contextual knowledge will set you free when reading quotes from a different era.

Yes, President of the Quorum of Twelve Rudger Clawson was racist. Go online and search his talks and sermons.

I haven't read his statements before but again,
It's very hard for any person in this day and age to image ANYONE from that day was NOT a racist. Contextual knowledge will set you free when reading quotes from a different era.

Yes, Apostles Mark E. Peterson and Delbert Stapely (contemporaries of that good man President Spencer W. Kimball) were racist. Go online and search their talks and sermons.

Mark E. Peterson and as far as I know, Delbert Stapely, were both good men who misunderstood the doctrine and were corrected by the very wonderful Spencer W. Kimball. Both retracted their statements and their statements are not considered doctrine. People are imperfect you know and not beyond correction. Even Apostles. That is the reason we have the established order in place. To occasionally correct individuals who may mispeak.
This was common among the early saints of Jesus church following his crucifixion. There were many false if not well intentioned ideas being circulated among the Corinthian, Thessalonian and Phillipian saints. Hence those local leaders needed to be corrected by Paul in his letters to them. This same order that existed then exists now being handed down to Joseph Smith from the Biblical apostles. We'll note the many imperfections of the apostles in the Bible, most notably Judas, but also other apostles too. Jesus corrected them many times, as he did Joseph Smith and other early apostles.

Don't believe me or T'Speaker. Go do your own research, and you will find out the truth

Amen to that!!!! That's what I've been saying all along.

 

[Zona]

http://www.mrm.org/curse-of-cain

If there is anything in church literature at any time indicating that the Mormon church thought that blacks were "sub human", I've never seen it.

Have you, Zona, or are you just saying that?

Do you know exactly whey they were denied priesthood until 78? Do you think out of the kindness of their hearts they decided to change? NOpe, they were threatened with taking away their tax exemption. That is the only reason they publically "changed". They are racists.

"were more valiant than others…Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin...The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence" (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).

According to Brigham Young, Joseph Smith classified these people as The Seed of Cain. Young said that "Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but 'the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity'" (The Way to Perfection, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.105).

"It was well understood by the early elders of the Church that the mark which was placed on Cain and which his posterity inherited was the black skin. The Book of Moses informs us that Cain and his descendants were black" (The Way to Perfection, p.107).

Joseph Fielding Smith stated, "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (The Way to Perfection, p.101).

http://www.mrm.org/curse-of-cain

 

[Avatar4321]

What a surprise. Can't find a source of doctrine supporting your claim.

Because the scriptures are very clear:

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Nephi 26:33)

You ignore the prophecies. You ignore President McKay's pleas with the Lord for the time to come for the Priesthood to come to all worthy. Most racists I know do that. You ignore the fact that The Church of Jesus Christ is still today one of the few faiths that has never segregated congregations because of race.

You ignore the fact that any empty threats of removing "tax exempt" status occured nearly a decade prior to 1978. And would never have been carried out due to the blatant unconstitutionality of it. You ignore the very huge issue of building the first Temple in Brazil. This is not convient for you to take into account because you presume racism when there is none.

There was no more racism in the Priesthood restrictions (especially since they werent based on race, they were based on lineage), then there was on God's commands to prohibt the Gentiles from recieving the Gospel during Christ's ministry and the few years after it. But why should I expect you to realize this? You don't know God. You don't understand His power. You seem to think that your life is all there is and nothing else matters. If you understand the purposes of God and Hisi ways, you will see how His plan of Happiness will ensure that all people who have ever walked the face of the earth will have an opportunity to partake of the Atonement of Christ and recieve the Ordinances they need.

When the people recieve the ordinances and fullness of glory doesnt matter. Because this lifetime is a mere drop in the bucket of what's to come. And the blessings of the covenant and ordinances are open to all who have lived, who now live, and will live in the future. When we recieve them isnt important. The fact that we get them is. And no one who has ever lived will be denied. God will redeem the living and the dead.

Mock, lie, misrepresent, remove obscure passages out of context. It isnt going to change the fact that you are wrong on this matter. And it's only because you are unwilling to consider the facts before making your conclusion.

 

[Zona]

Eactly...just like I said, morons are racist and only changed their written racist laws because they were being called out as racist and were about to lose their tax exemption. Great group your defending there bucko.

They would still have those racist ways if they were afraid to lose their tax exemption.

 

[Skeptik]

Eactly...just like I said, morons are racist and only changed their written racist laws because they were being called out as racist and were about to lose their tax exemption. Great group your defending there bucko.

They would still have those racist ways if they were afraid to lose their tax exemption.

Why do you keep repeating nonsense, after Avatar showed you that it was nonsense? Do you think that repetition can change fiction to fact somehow?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The fact, Septik, is that Mormon history is one of persecution and discrimination against peoples of color, including African Americans. Your whole history from Brigham Young right down to Stapely and Petersen are littered with it.

You are guilty of the heresy of a royal Abrahamic priesthood of lineage, which is inherently racist. That you don't want to believe it means nothing.

 

[Skeptik]

The fact, Septik, is that Mormon history is one of persecution and discrimination against peoples of color, including African Americans. Your whole history from Brigham Young right down to Stapely and Petersen are littered with it.

You are guilty of the heresy of a royal Abrahamic priesthood of lineage, which is inherently racist. That you don't want to believe it means nothing.

You say that Mormon history is one of persecution and discrimination, without citing a single incident, nor a single source to back up your assertion. Why would anyone be expected to take it seriously? If no one is to be expected to take it seriously, why post it at all?