The Truth about Mormons

[TofuDog]

No seriously dude, you believe god is an alien from another planet! That's seriously whacked! No wonder you don't drink, you don't need it! You're already totally whacked!
Man, you're seriously delusional.
I almost feel sorry for you.

 

[Avatar4321]

Your god talks to you? Whaoh there pilgrim....Thats crazy.

simply because you refuse to let the Lord reveal Himself to you, does not mean the rest of us dont know Him.

You could hear his voice too if you sought to.

 

[Eightball]

Your god talks to you? Whaoh there pilgrim....Thats crazy.

simply because you refuse to let the Lord reveal Himself to you, does not mean the rest of us dont know Him.

You could hear his voice too if you sought to.

The message below is not a copy-paste, but authored completey by 8-ball.

How do you confirm that it is the "Lord" that is communicating with you?

That is the tripping-point with LDS/Mormons. They rely on unscripturally based visions/dreams, to confirm the validity of their system of belief.
*******
Now of course if you look at it from the LDS/Mormons angle, all is completely legit, as they believe that God is still sending prophets with new revelations up to even now. It wasn't enough that Jesus got the job done 2,000 years ago, and that the bible tells us specifically to rely on God's Word, the scriptures.

The only problem, is that you'd think that these very intelligent, well educated people would use some common sense, and not "buy" into this planetary stuff that has similar finger prints to Scientology. It is so bazaar, cause so many of the tenets of LDS/Mormonism is considered an abomination to the God and Lord of the bible.

Sadly, so many Mormons have just followed in the footsteps of their ancestors right up to their parents, and have sadly not investigated their belief system themselves. They have a religion that has no physical evidence, nor reliable witnesses, that would be considered of rational mind nowadays nor were they back in the 1800's.

What I love about the bible, is that the non-believer who has not come from any Christian or biblical background can pick up this book, and read it and really receive some valuable eye-witness information from a myriad of different authors, both from the O.T. and N.T.. Yet, the bible seems to be congruous, in it's message both from O.T. to the N.T..

As mentioned earlier, reputable archeological teams are constantly unearthing evidenced in the Middle East that are substantiating the bible, and validating more and more as an accurate group of books.

Truthspeaker is constantly telling folks who present viable arguments or questions about his religion by telling them that he's adequately answered their inquiries, yet when you look back, his whole premise is based on "blind" faith.

True faith is based on factual, substantiated evidence. All the LDS church has is a person of questionable character as the founder, and seer who had this revelation from an angel named Moroni. As Paul says in the bible to the early church nearly 2,000 years back, "Don't believe me nor anyone that comes to you and says, that they have this revelation or they've seen the Lord, and He said this or that; but go to the scriptures and make sure that what is said or seen confirms scripture.

The Mormon church only confirms what validates their alleged prophet's dreams and writings.

Just because a religious group is persecuted, doesn't mean that they have the truth. The persecution can be for a number of reasons, i.e. that they are trying to proselytize bible Christians into their heresy, and that can raise the hackles of a strong biblically based community. That is what happened in Illinoise and many states that the early J.S. Jr. followers traveled through, before settling in an area of the N. America where there were little or no Judeau Christian settlers; namely the arid regions of the territory of Utah.

Mormons weren't persecuted because people were under conviction of the Holy Spirit, when the LDS doctrines were presented. The Biblical Christian communities were incensed by the incursion and intrusion of the Mormons who basically condemned bible believing folks, telling them that their bible was corrupt, and that their leader had a one on one connection with God that trumped the bible.

Up until a short time ago, the Mormons in their secret temple ceremonies, present a skit that basically shows a bible based minister being duped by Lucifer. They have ended that presentation, as it makes it very difficult to proselytize Christians into thinking they are true Christians by mocking their Pastors, Priests, and or ministers.

2,000 years ago, Paul said that there is no distinction between male, female, gentile, Jew, barbarian who are in Christ. All are internally circumcized by God with the gift of His Spirit indwelling their souls eternally.

Yet, the "True Christian Church" of J.S. Jr./Brigham Young only a few years ago, finally ended a very terrible form of racism towards people of African/Negroid Race decent. One of their prophets long ago said that those of the black skin race are decendents of Cain, who murdered his brother Abel, in a fit of jealousy. Therefore, Black Mormon members were not allowed to partake in the priesthood offices of the church. What a travesty!

Again, Paul the apostle 2,000 years ago was miles ahead of J.S. jr. and the Mormon church.

Also, Paul taught that salvation was and act of God's grace upon the individual. It was not based on man's works, but was a gift of God, yet the LDS church violates those very tenents, by emphasizing that man can earn God's righteousness through "good" works.

If that is the case, then Jesus died for nothing. I.E., man can gain righteousness through his own works, aside from the redeeming work of Christ on the cross. Do you see the contradiction?

Again, Truthspeaker thinks he has adequately answered all the very damning questions that have pertinence, but in fact summarily "blows" off those questions, with anwsers such as "I'm tired of reading your novels", "or he's at odds with alleged cut and past quotes from sources".

Mormonism demands a verdict! Mormonism is classified as a cult by well respected theologians of the bible, and that includes both Catholic, Protestant, and Non-aligned Christian theologians.

The whole foundation of Mormonism is build upon supposed visions, and miracles that all seem to conveniently support the statement, that Mormonism is the truth. How convenient.

I totally respect the LDS churches' strong patriotic fervor of our country, and their support of heterosexual marriage, but that does not mean that they are Christian. Many religions of the world support their governments, and don't support gay marriage.

Christianity goes beyond the acts, and is an internalized, change that God creates in the individual, that confirms the bible scriptures.

Novice and most Mormons are encouraged to do study, but not "independent" study, of scripture. It must be under the supervision of an elder in most cases.

Interestingly, most ex-Mormons have become-so, as a result of studying the bible without the constraints and oversight of elders. I.E... The truth of the bible has freed them from the cultic hold that Mormonism exerts on it's members.

In areas of this country where communities have a majority of Mormons, it can be very difficult for the bible Christian or non-Mormon to prosper in business. The H.P. corporation up in Camas, Washington, is loaded with upper management folks who are LDS, and it is very difficult to be accepted and advance up their in Camas/Vancouver, WA. area otherwise.

When my father grew up in Salt Lake back in the 1915-1920's, he told me that the LDS folks would shun non LDS folks in public and even walk on the other side of the street to avoid contact. My dad's mom was LDS, but his dad was Episcapalean. My grandpa owned two bars/saloons in Salt Lake City back in the late 1800's into the early 1900's. He was also at Promentory Point, Utah, at the driving of the Golden Spike that connected the transcontinental railroad. He is part of the famous photograph with the two steam locomotive engines facing each other from the two railroads that joined in Utah.

I have worked with ex-Mormons for Jesus when I was in bible college. It was a challenging yet blessed ministry. Ex-Mormons go though some awful stress in their lives as many are cut-off from their close familial relationships because they chose to leave the LDS fold. It is not unlike what happens when a Muslim becomes a Christian. It is a big sacrifice, and the ramifications are very serious.
*******
Now, most likely, Truthspeaker will say, that he doesn't want to read 8-balls novels, but that's his choice. It isn't unlike sticking one's fingeres in one's ears and humming real loud so as to not hear things that might cause some upset.
*******
Put the BOM alongside the bible. I don't care what translation of the bible one prefers. The King James is the LDS choice, but the American Standard, NIV, Revised Standard, are all very good too. If you get hung up with the "Thys and Thees", then the last mentioned translations can help one in reading the bible and get some good comprehension.

You will find out for yourself that the BOM rambles, and goes all over the place, and also states factually erroneous statements about the human history of North and South America.
******
If it wasn't so sad as a bible Christian to know how mislead, these LDS folks were, I'd actually laugh about their beliefs, but I can't. My heart is burdened for them, as they are so off track, and so controlled, and constrained, within the LDS parameters.

Where they have freedom, they open themselves up to being mislead by Lucifer, as they/LDS will not question the source of their visions, burning bosoms, that seem to conveniently validate Mormonism.

Yes, there is an unseen spiritual world out there, and 2/3's of it is "hell-bent" on leading man away from the truth contained in the bible.

 

[HUGGY]

Your god talks to you? Whaoh there pilgrim....Thats crazy.

simply because you refuse to let the Lord reveal Himself to you, does not mean the rest of us dont know Him.

You could hear his voice too if you sought to.

I don't think so sport

I've got responsibilities and other peoples fortunes tied up in my inventions. If I turned up wackadoodle like you someone might put a cap in my scull.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Your god talks to you? Whaoh there pilgrim....Thats crazy.

simply because you refuse to let the Lord reveal Himself to you, does not mean the rest of us dont know Him.

You could hear his voice too if you sought to.

I don't think so sport

I've got responsibilities and other peoples fortunes tied up in my inventions. If I turned up wackadoodle like you someone might put a cap in my scull.

One less know-it-all

 

[Truthspeaker]

No seriously dude, you believe god is an alien from another planet! That's seriously whacked! No wonder you don't drink, you don't need it! You're already totally whacked!
Man, you're seriously delusional.
I almost feel sorry for you.

Fine by me.

 

[TofuDog]

I said "almost".

You believe your god is an alien from another planet, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
You guys are dumber than I thought! And I already knew you're heavily dumbed out with your funny beards and your pedophilic multiple marriages.

One question: how the fuck did they get you to believe that alien shit?

 

[Truthspeaker]

I said "almost".

You believe your god is an alien from another planet, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
You guys are dumber than I thought! And I already knew you're heavily dumbed out with your funny beards and your pedophilic multiple marriages.

One question: how the fuck did they get you to believe that alien shit?

If you were ready to listen, I'd explain some things to you. But since your adolescent behavior dictates no worthiness of an answer, I will not humor you further.

Next please...

 

[TofuDog]

ok, all kidding aside, I'm ready to listen, go ahead.

 

[Eightball]

MORMON MISSIONARIES DEBATING A GEORGIA PREACHER

Check out this Youtube...

Just keep in mind that this preacher would not have been allowed, if he had been a Mormon, to participate in the Mormon priesthood just a few years back.

Also remember when facing Mormons attempting to evangelize you a bible Christian; make sure you are well versed in the bible as the average Mormon will use the bible to convince you that you are adrift and not in the "True Christian Church". Of course if your up on your bible knowledge you will see how they mis-use scripture, to further their agenda.

Please click this the following statement that high-lights with your cursor: Mormon Missionaries confront a Georgia, preacher - Mormon Missionaries spreading the word of Jesus Christ

Here's an interesting Youtube video on Mormon Blood Attonement.

Please click this the following statement that high-lights with your cursor:BLOOD ATONEMENT DOCTRINE

 

[Truthspeaker]

MORMON MISSIONARIES DEBATING A GEORGIA PREACHER

Check out this Youtube...

Just keep in mind that this preacher would not have been allowed, if he had been a Mormon, to participate in the Mormon priesthood just a few years back.

Also remember when facing Mormons attempting to evangelize you a bible Christian; make sure you are well versed in the bible as the average Mormon will use the bible to convince you that you are adrift and not in the "True Christian Church". Of course if your up on your bible knowledge you will see how they mis-use scripture, to further their agenda.

Please click this the following statement that high-lights with your cursor: Mormon Missionaries confront a Georgia, preacher - Mormon Missionaries spreading the word of Jesus Christ

Here's an interesting Youtube video on Mormon Blood Attonement.

Please click this the following statement that high-lights with your cursor:BLOOD ATONEMENT DOCTRINE

8-Ball you are a real piece of work ya know. You are like the energizer bunny of broken record error. Why do you keep posting these statements when you know full well, I have answered both of your little sniveling attempts to smear my church as early as the 4th page of this thread.

oh and btw, I haven't heard you say anything to the TofuDogs of the world who claim there is no God. So do you believe there is a God to the point of rebutting someone like Huggy or Tofu? Or are you all three in this together?

 

[Truthspeaker]

ok, all kidding aside, I'm ready to listen, go ahead.

ok...yeah.no. you are not ready. Because you haven't asked any intelligent, grown up, or honest questions yet.

 

[Eightball]

MORMON MISSIONARIES DEBATING A GEORGIA PREACHER

Check out this Youtube...

Just keep in mind that this preacher would not have been allowed, if he had been a Mormon, to participate in the Mormon priesthood just a few years back.

Also remember when facing Mormons attempting to evangelize you a bible Christian; make sure you are well versed in the bible as the average Mormon will use the bible to convince you that you are adrift and not in the "True Christian Church". Of course if your up on your bible knowledge you will see how they mis-use scripture, to further their agenda.

Please click this the following statement that high-lights with your cursor: Mormon Missionaries confront a Georgia, preacher - Mormon Missionaries spreading the word of Jesus Christ

Here's an interesting Youtube video on Mormon Blood Attonement.

Please click this the following statement that high-lights with your cursor:BLOOD ATONEMENT DOCTRINE

8-Ball you are a real piece of work ya know. You are like the energizer bunny of broken record error. Why do you keep posting these statements when you know full well, I have answered both of your little sniveling attempts to smear my church as early as the 4th page of this thread.

oh and btw, I haven't heard you say anything to the TofuDogs of the world who claim there is no God. So do you believe there is a God to the point of rebutting someone like Huggy or Tofu? Or are you all three in this together?

First and foremost, you haven't been answering my questions raised since the beginning. You just spout off Mormon lingo, because you know the bible stands right in your face, and your answers, with a big, "No!" to your defense of your churchs' doctrine.

Secondly, Huggy and or Tofu, are not the real threat to the "truth" or the bible, and the revelation of God, that the LDS/Mormon church is.

Huggy, and Tofu don't hide their agenda, nor where they really stand.

On the other hand, you who are probably a bishop or elder of the LDS church, stand behind subderfuge, smoke and mirrors, and refuse to answer what the Word of God says straight to your face.

I have quoted Romans 10:17 many times, and you have totally ignored it because you are spiritually blind to it's understanding.

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ"

That's it in a ball of wax.

You carry a "haughty" attitude on this thread throughout, dismissing those that present plausible reasons or rebuttals to your churchs' doctrine.

Your whole religious premise stand on this revelation from a most notorious, man J.S. Jr. who lacked moral compass/scruples of great degree.

Your Temple rituals are Freemason ripoff's, ala J.S. Jr.'s earlier affiliation with Freemasonry, your magic underware with it's occult symbols is a big blatant example of superstitious, occult, leaning teaching, and has no grounds in Christian/biblical teaching.

The Witch of Endor who King Saul went to, was living in violation of God's commands to not be involved in occult/witchcraft activity. Yet, your protective underware represents occult influence, and you know it.

You refuse to accept secular accounts of your church founder's life and which involved much criminal activity, and scamming of innocent folks in early 19th century America.

Your Boof of Mormon is filled with ridiculous espousals that go totally against common sense acheology.

Yet the bible has been archeologically proven over and over again, and even to this day, new discoveries in the Middle East are validating cities/sites that before hand were mentioned in the bible but not known.

Your belief system is based on good works = Salvation, yet you espouse that faith is part of it.

If man's works could earn him salvation then Christ's death was in vain. In fact your Blood Attonement taught by your early prophet is an example of your ignorance of Faith in Christ, and His total attoning work = personal salvation.

Mom, Dad, "Leave To Beaver" family living, apple pie, and the American flag don't earn one iota towards one's personal salvation with God Almighty.

Paul clearly said that false prophets would arise in the future, and they would teach teachings that would not be from God. These false teachers would tell us, "Here is the christ!", and many would flock to that christ, and these people would be miserably lost on a circular rabbit trail of false visions, miracles, etc...

Lucifer has done a superb job via the LDS/Mormon church. He has gotten millions of human beings to "buy" into visions, miracles, burning bosom, subjective experiential occurences as the means to LDS/Mormon validation of their doctirne.

God has given us the whole package in His Word, the bible. It is all that is needed for man to know the nature of God, as it's N.T. reveals the very nature of God via Jesus Christ.

God has not allowed his scripture to be convoluted/corrupted, in anyway, yet the premise of Mormon teaching is that God did indeed let His communication or revelation/gospel become inadequate.

Folks: Just open the bible and read any of the first four gospels in the N.T., Matthew, Mark, John or Luke, and then read this alleged revelation from God, via this angel Moroni, to J.S. Jr.. You will see a distinct difference. One book will seem like a mishmash, and confusion, and fairytale, and the other will seem so plausible, and direct to the heart of man.
*****
One distinct foot print of any cult or occult group is "How do they deal with Jesus Christ?".

1. With Mormons, he was once just a man, and not God Almighty, and He/Jesus can be repeated in any Mormon males life if that Mormon lives a good, righteous life(Works again.).
2. Jehovah's Witnesses, also attack the eternal Godhood of Jesus by teaching that Jesus was once created, as we humans, and was the Archangel Michael.
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One can go on and on about the LDS/Mormon movement/church. It's adherents often have just followed familial tradition, and have evolved into church membership, cause Mom and Pop, Gramps and Grandma, and on back for generations.

Jesus and His disciples taught that once a person dies, they either are going to be in heaven or they will be eternally separated from God(Hell). There is no grey area with this teaching in the bible.

Yet: The Mormons have taken this firm, clear teaching and teach that people who died without salvation can be post-mortem baptized by living persons, most notably Mormons in good standing.

So much of Mormon doctrine falls into the area of man's definition of a church, rather than God's parameters. Notice that polygamy was considered ok, by their early prophets, yet they conveniently changed that when the U.S. government was going to withhold Utah from statehood unless the Mormons straightened up their act.

Truthspeaker has never answered the question of the weight of the golden plates that the then known lame legged J.S. Jr. didn't just carry but ran with for a great distance.

Truthspeaker has never adequately answered why their god gave them his communications in heirogyphics, rather than English.

When God communicated to Moses on Mt. Sinai, He gave Moses the stone tablets in Moses' and the Israelites language of that time.

Joseph Smith Jr. had to decipher the heiroglyphics via a seer's stone in his hat. The use of a seers stone is as occult as in withcraft. Again, J.S. Jr. was violating God's very clear command to stay as far as possible from the occult.

When Christ died on the cross, the "Veil" in the temple in Jerusalem was ripped in two. No longer did the Veil enclose the Holy of Holies of the great temple. Only the Levitical priests could enter the Holy of Holies back in the O.T. times. The Israelites had the Levite priests as their mediators to give their sins to God in the Holy of Holies, and receive forgiveness for one year.

When Christ died, and said "It is finished!", the Veil was ripped, and that represented that Jesus had become the ultimate Mediator between man and God. No longer was a Levitical priesthood needed to set sins aside from year to year. Now Christ had set the sins aside for an eternity, as far as the East is to the West. Man could enter the Holy or Holies or have communion with God Almighty through Jesus Christ. His blood was the total sufficiency.

Yet: The Mormons taught that there were some sins that Jesus' death could not cover, and thence we have "blood attonement"; a most gruesome, murdersom, display of unGodly humanity calling the shots.
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Folks look back at the pages of posts, and see if Truthspeaker really did answer my questions or any of yours?

What you'll find is answers such as these: "I've already answered that." or "I'm not going to bother reading another of your novels.", or "Why can't God still be doing visions, etc. to the people?".

Lucifer is called a "wolf in sheeps clothing", and indeed he is. He hides behind motherhood, clean living, no caffeine/alcohol, no swearing, patriotism, and clean shaved faces, and constantly wins-over converts. He offeres a wide, popular highway of life, not unlike "Pleasantville, U.S.A.". God is not against all the clean living, but these are still "works" in order to "be". Mormons work so hard in order to "be" or be in the good graces of their god. God showed us in the O.T., that not one person could meet His law 100%, and with that, Romans 3:23 said, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.". Yet, Paul said that the Law wasn't bad, as it tutored us towards God's offer of unmerited favor/grace through His Son. It tutored us, in that it convinced us that we could sin, yet be acceptable to enter into communion with our sinless, perfect, and Holy Creator, was through "grace". That grace was offered through Jesus, becoming our replacement for God's judgement upon sinful man. Therefore, Jesus, has become our mediator, and advocate before God, "Perpetually!".

Why do Mormons have the highest per-capita rate of alcoholism, of any religious group(actually Jehovah's Witnesses aren't far behind)? It's so easy to see! The average Mormon can't stop working overtime trying to "earn" brownie points that will convince God that he/she is good-enough. This creates a perpetual treadmill of works upon works, upon works. Mormons never know for sure, just like J.W.'s where they really stand before their god. The works must go on and on, in order to "be". Their whole identity is wrapped up in their works, not their position as judged by God.

The biblical Christian is positionally righteous, when he or she sins or doesn't sin. Ok, some will say, that means Christians can do all kinds of bad things and their safe. Absolutely not! A true born again Christian who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, will not desire to sin, but will still have fleshly fights with the temptations. The important part, is the "desire", that the H.S. has placed in the Christian. It's that desire to be free from sin and it's temptations that distinguish the Christian from the natural or unsaved human.

Christians can fall into carnality, yet God will not let it go for long before consequences will befall them and they will either walk away from that carnal life, and start living by faith in God, or they will literally perish physically.
******
Yep, this is another 8-ball novel, as Truthspeaker would call it.

Remember that cults need to "control" their members, and Truthspeaker knows what that means, cause I'm sure he's in an office in the church where he must oversee some Mormons that aren't as far along as he.

I can't begin to count the stories of folks who left the LDS/Mormon church, and all the pressure that was put upon them by the church in ways that were outright mean.

Truthspeaker knows that novice or young Mormons are not encouraged to read the bible independently, without asking their elders to answer questions that come up. How convenient. The "sheep" ask a question of the "wolf".
*****
And Truthspeaker, don't hit me with that "You hate Mormons" stuff, cause that's just the dieing breath of a person without a life-jacket.

The love of Christ fills every true Christian. I wouldn't waste a bunch of time writing this "novels" if I didn't have a burden for the souls of Mormons.

Just as Christ came down hard on the teachers of the day, called Pharisee's, I come down extra hard on those who caste a web of lies over myriads of novice Mormons, who think they've found eternal life in this false church.

 

[Avatar4321]

First and foremost, you haven't been answering my questions raised since the beginning. You just spout off Mormon lingo, because you know the bible stands right in your face, and your answers, with a big, "No!" to your defense of your churchs' doctrine.

I cant speak for him, but I personally have addressed your concerns numerous times. You've ignored them, changed the subject, and then begin saying the same things over again when you think everyone has forgotten what was previously said. It's rather annoying.

Secondly, Huggy and or Tofu, are not the real threat to the "truth" or the bible, and the revelation of God, that the LDS/Mormon church is.

While I agree Huggy and Tofu aren't real threats to anything, let alone Truth, You very well know that Mormon does not threaten the Bible. Quite the opposite. We embrace it. All of it, particularly the concept of revelation.

Huggy, and Tofu don't hide their agenda, nor where they really stand.

Neither do I.

On the other hand, you who are probably a bishop or elder of the LDS church, stand behind subderfuge, smoke and mirrors, and refuse to answer what the Word of God says straight to your face.

What, you mean like where Christ says that those who recieve the Word are gods?

I have quoted Romans 10:17 many times, and you have totally ignored it because you are spiritually blind to it's understanding.

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ"

That's it in a ball of wax.

Neither I, Nor TS disagrees with the scripture at all. Quoting it over and over again when we have absolutely no disagreement with it as though this refutes everything we do is rather absurd.

However, I have to ask, if you believe that scripture, why do you try to limit what Christ can say?

You carry a "haughty" attitude on this thread throughout, dismissing those that present plausible reasons or rebuttals to your churchs' doctrine.

Rebuttals? Who in this entire thread has rebutted anything??? Its 90+ pages of copy and paste and "you're wrong!" claims.

Your whole religious premise stand on this revelation from a most notorious, man J.S. Jr. who lacked moral compass/scruples of great degree.

You say this out of ignorance, and I understand that. Joseph Smith was a man, and it's easy to make a man look evil. After all, even the Lord Jesus Christ was falsely accused of notoriety and lacking a moral compass. In fact, he was sentenced to death based on those false accusations. And if the Lord can be accused of all manner of evil acts, He being the one perfect man to walk this planet, how much more are the

However, almost all people are much more complex than simple unfounded accusations or even founded ones. And no matter who God chose to call, that man would still be a sinful man. That doesnt invalidate the message at all. But then, it is typical to attack the messenger when the message is unassailable.

Your Temple rituals are Freemason ripoff's, ala J.S. Jr.'s earlier affiliation with Freemasonry, your magic underware with it's occult symbols is a big blatant example of superstitious, occult, leaning teaching, and has no grounds in Christian/biblical teaching.

Again, your demonstrating a lack of study into the subject. The Temple rituals are one of the greatest testaments that Joseph knew what he was talking about. The rituals or the "mysteries" are all over the ancient world. We still see them all over society and go through them ignorantly without a thought. Christianity and Judaism, in their pristine form, are Temple centered religions. The Temple is all over the Bible!

Also, Joseph wasnt affiliated with Freemasonry until the last years of his life. Quite a bit of time after he began to learn the mysteries from translating the Book of Abraham.

The Witch of Endor who King Saul went to, was living in violation of God's commands to not be involved in occult/witchcraft activity. Yet, your protective underware represents occult influence, and you know it.

Yes, because Underwear is evil....

You refuse to accept secular accounts of your church founder's life and which involved much criminal activity, and scamming of innocent folks in early 19th century America.

Why would I accept what's blatantly false? I've studied the information. Joseph was never convicted of any crime. And even if he was, it wouldnt prove that the message he taught was false or that he wasnt called by God because God has no choice but to use sinners to preach his message.

Your Boof of Mormon is filled with ridiculous espousals that go totally against common sense acheology.

You mean like the resurrection of the dead? Eye witness accounts of the resurrected Savior? You do realize that archaelogy is about a precise as a man peeing in a toilet dont you?

Yet the bible has been archeologically proven over and over again, and even to this day, new discoveries in the Middle East are validating cities/sites that before hand were mentioned in the bible but not known.

You keep saying this, but I cant help but notice you completely ignored my thread asking what the archaelogical proof for the resurrection of Christ is. You also completely ignore that the Book of Mormon does accurately describe and name locations through Arabia completely unknown to the western world until recently.

Let me ask you, which is more impressive? A book we know is ancient, which was passed on from generation to generation, describing accurate places in it's region? or a Book that appeared practically out of thin air, accurately describing unknown locations half way around the world?

Your belief system is based on good works = Salvation, yet you espouse that faith is part of it.

No it isn't. What is so difficult to understand about it? Read the Book of Mormon. Please just read it and you wont continue with this ridiculous claim that we believe we are saved by good works.

If man's works could earn him salvation then Christ's death was in vain. In fact your Blood Attonement taught by your early prophet is an example of your ignorance of Faith in Christ, and His total attoning work = personal salvation.

No one has claimed that any mans works can earn him salvation.

Mom, Dad, "Leave To Beaver" family living, apple pie, and the American flag don't earn one iota towards one's personal salvation with God Almighty.

No one has claimed it did. But I guess that's an efficient straw man for you to knock down.

Paul clearly said that false prophets would arise in the future, and they would teach teachings that would not be from God. These false teachers would tell us, "Here is the christ!", and many would flock to that christ, and these people would be miserably lost on a circular rabbit trail of false visions, miracles, etc...

Actually, Christ is the one who taught that. He also taught that miracles and visions would follow His true believers.

Lucifer has done a superb job via the LDS/Mormon church. He has gotten millions of human beings to "buy" into visions, miracles, burning bosom, subjective experiential occurences as the means to LDS/Mormon validation of their doctirne.

You don't believe in visions or miracles or the Holy Spirit??

God has given us the whole package in His Word, the bible. It is all that is needed for man to know the nature of God, as it's N.T. reveals the very nature of God via Jesus Christ.

I am sorry that you believe that all there is to the Eternities is found in the Bible. The Bible doesnt make that claim. Neither does God. Quite the opposite in fact. Paul taught that he was only preaching the milk of the Gospel. We have absolutely no knowledge of what Christ taught the disciples in His 40 days with them after the Resurrection. John stated that all the books in the world wouldnt begin to contain the All the words and acts of Christ. Paul stated there were things He was forbidden to speak.

Yet, we are supposed to believe that God doesnt want us to learn anything more than is in the Bible. Even though revelation and prophecy has been one of the clearest signs of His faith throughout all generations of time and God has not changed.

You're free to believe that if you choose, but Im not about to tell God what He can and cannot teach me.

God has not allowed his scripture to be convoluted/corrupted, in anyway, yet the premise of Mormon teaching is that God did indeed let His communication or revelation/gospel become inadequate.

No, the premise of Mormonism is that God still talks to men and women of faith; that claiming otherwise is false doctrine and a corruption of the truth. The Lord communicates through the Spirit. The scriptures are a tool to aid that communication, not the end of that communication.

Folks: Just open the bible and read any of the first four gospels in the N.T., Matthew, Mark, John or Luke, and then read this alleged revelation from God, via this angel Moroni, to J.S. Jr.. You will see a distinct difference. One book will seem like a mishmash, and confusion, and fairytale, and the other will seem so plausible, and direct to the heart of man.
*****

You seriously need to read the Book of Mormon if you think there is any confusion in it.

One distinct foot print of any cult or occult group is "How do they deal with Jesus Christ?".

Of course, because why on earth would they not? i mean why would any religious group exist that didnt think exclusively of what to do about Christ? [/sarcasm]

Not every religion centers it's message on Christ. Mormonism does. Some Christians do too. But many groups simply have their own view points depending on what their founders thought.

1. With Mormons, he was once just a man, and not God Almighty, and He/Jesus can be repeated in any Mormon males life if that Mormon lives a good, righteous life(Works again.).

I know Ive said this before, but you really need to read the Book of Mormon. Because anyone who has knows how incredibly stupid your statement is.

2. Jehovah's Witnesses, also attack the eternal Godhood of Jesus by teaching that Jesus was once created, as we humans, and was the Archangel Michael.
******

They can do what they want, who cares?

One can go on and on about the LDS/Mormon movement/church. It's adherents often have just followed familial tradition, and have evolved into church membership, cause Mom and Pop, Gramps and Grandma, and on back for generations.

Most mormons are converts. Unless you're honestly trying to claim that all those Asian, African, and Hispanic converts are all just following the family traditions of their White Mormon grandparents.

Jesus and His disciples taught that once a person dies, they either are going to be in heaven or they will be eternally separated from God(Hell). There is no grey area with this teaching in the bible.

No He didn't. Though I completely understand why you've reached this conclution with the context you have.

Yet: The Mormons have taken this firm, clear teaching and teach that people who died without salvation can be post-mortem baptized by living persons, most notably Mormons in good standing.

Most notably Mormons in good standing? do you know anyone else who goes into the Temples?

And please lets not forget Paul cited baptism by proxy for the dead as an evidence of the Resurrection because "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. " (1 Cor 15:19)

After all "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit"(1 Peter 3:6)

But no, there is absolutely no reason to believe that we have any hope of salvation after we die. It doesnt matter what the scriptures say.

So much of Mormon doctrine falls into the area of man's definition of a church, rather than God's parameters. Notice that polygamy was considered ok, by their early prophets, yet they conveniently changed that when the U.S. government was going to withhold Utah from statehood unless the Mormons straightened up their act.

What the hell is man's definition of a church?!?!? Where on earth do you get these ideas? it sure as heck isnt in the Bible. Almost all the early Bible Prophets thought polygamy was okay too.

And Utah's statehood had nothing to do with the revelation on polygamy. I know the websites you visited say so, but the Saints were applying from statehood from 1850 on. do you honestly think that after 40 years they thought statehood was so vital as to change practices? Seriously? Are you really saying that the extent of the effort to understand why the revelation happened is visiting an anti mormon website when all you have to do is read the proclaimation itself which states specifically why?

Truthspeaker has never answered the question of the weight of the golden plates that the then known lame legged J.S. Jr. didn't just carry but ran with for a great distance.

Because, of course, he should answer questions that were addressed decades ago because everyone refuses to do some research.

Truthspeaker has never adequately answered why their god gave them his communications in heirogyphics, rather than English.

Probably because your statement makes absolutely no sense. Why did God give the Bible in Hebrew and Greek? Maybe because communicates to people in their languages.

When God communicated to Moses on Mt. Sinai, He gave Moses the stone tablets in Moses' and the Israelites language of that time.

Yeah. Of course.

Joseph Smith Jr. had to decipher the heiroglyphics via a seer's stone in his hat. The use of a seers stone is as occult as in withcraft. Again, J.S. Jr. was violating God's very clear command to stay as far as possible from the occult.

So you expected people who write their records anciently to write and speak English? this is logical because...?

When Christ died on the cross, the "Veil" in the temple in Jerusalem was ripped in two. No longer did the Veil enclose the Holy of Holies of the great temple. Only the Levitical priests could enter the Holy of Holies back in the O.T. times. The Israelites had the Levite priests as their mediators to give their sins to God in the Holy of Holies, and receive forgiveness for one year.

The Veil was fixed after Christ resurrection. Christians worshipped in that Temple until the Temple was destroyed.

When Christ died, and said "It is finished!", the Veil was ripped, and that represented that Jesus had become the ultimate Mediator between man and God. No longer was a Levitical priesthood needed to set sins aside from year to year. Now Christ had set the sins aside for an eternity, as far as the East is to the West. Man could enter the Holy or Holies or have communion with God Almighty through Jesus Christ. His blood was the total sufficiency.

No, this is what you interpret it to mean. Yet, even after the Resurrection Christ called Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Evangelists, etc to preach the Gospel, to baptize to lift up the feeble and unite them.

Yet: The Mormons taught that there were some sins that Jesus' death could not cover, and thence we have "blood attonement"; a most gruesome, murdersom, display of unGodly humanity calling the shots.
********

Christ, Himself, stated that Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost would not be forgiven.

Folks look back at the pages of posts, and see if Truthspeaker really did answer my questions or any of yours?

Im sure that you will see them answered time and time again only to be ignored time and time again.

What you'll find is answers such as these: "I've already answered that." or "I'm not going to bother reading another of your novels.", or "Why can't God still be doing visions, etc. to the people?".

That would probably be because you keep ignoring the responses and refusing to answer any question addressed to you and it gets rather annoying after a while.

Lucifer is called a "wolf in sheeps clothing", and indeed he is. He hides behind motherhood, clean living, no caffeine/alcohol, no swearing, patriotism, and clean shaved faces, and constantly wins-over converts.

Yeah cause those moms are just so evil...

He offeres a wide, popular highway of life, not unlike "Pleasantville, U.S.A.". God is not against all the clean living, but these are still "works" in order to "be". Mormons work so hard in order to "be" or be in the good graces of their god.

Did you ever consider that we do good simply because we love God?

God showed us in the O.T., that not one person could meet His law 100%, and with that, Romans 3:23 said, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.". Yet, Paul said that the Law wasn't bad, as it tutored us towards God's offer of unmerited favor/grace through His Son. It tutored us, in that it convinced us that we could sin, yet be acceptable to enter into communion with our sinless, perfect, and Holy Creator, was through "grace". That grace was offered through Jesus, becoming our replacement for God's judgement upon sinful man. Therefore, Jesus, has become our mediator, and advocate before God, "Perpetually!".

And no one has disgreed.

Why do Mormons have the highest per-capita rate of alcoholism, of any religious group(actually Jehovah's Witnesses aren't far behind)? It's so easy to see!

Because its easy for you to make things up.

The average Mormon can't stop working overtime trying to "earn" brownie points that will convince God that he/she is good-enough. This creates a perpetual treadmill of works upon works, upon works. Mormons never know for sure, just like J.W.'s where they really stand before their god. The works must go on and on, in order to "be". Their whole identity is wrapped up in their works, not their position as judged by God.

Your assumptions are completely wrong. it's easy to know our positions before God. It's done through the Spirit.

The biblical Christian is positionally righteous, when he or she sins or doesn't sin. Ok, some will say, that means Christians can do all kinds of bad things and their safe. Absolutely not! A true born again Christian who has the indwelling Holy Spirit, will not desire to sin, but will still have fleshly fights with the temptations. The important part, is the "desire", that the H.S. has placed in the Christian. It's that desire to be free from sin and it's temptations that distinguish the Christian from the natural or unsaved human.

As if this is something foreign from mormonism. It really would be nice if you read the Book of Mormon.

Christians can fall into carnality, yet God will not let it go for long before consequences will befall them and they will either walk away from that carnal life, and start living by faith in God, or they will literally perish physically.
******

That's basically the same way for just about everyone who ever lived.

Yep, this is another 8-ball novel, as Truthspeaker would call it.

I doubt anyone knows what that means.

Remember that cults need to "control" their members, and Truthspeaker knows what that means, cause I'm sure he's in an office in the church where he must oversee some Mormons that aren't as far along as he.

Can you be any more condescending? Look, I know you dont believe it, but please stop being so ridiculous.

I can't begin to count the stories of folks who left the LDS/Mormon church, and all the pressure that was put upon them by the church in ways that were outright mean.

Problem is most of those so called stories are about as real as Clinton promoting abstinence.

Truthspeaker knows that novice or young Mormons are not encouraged to read the bible independently, without asking their elders to answer questions that come up. How convenient. The "sheep" ask a question of the "wolf".
*****

What on earth are you talkng about? All mormons are encouraged to read the Bible in depth on their own. We are encouraged to read all scriptures in depth on our own. We read it to our children. Teenagers get up early every morning study the Bible before school. Your being completely ridiculous and sounding like a conspiracy nut.

And Truthspeaker, don't hit me with that "You hate Mormons" stuff, cause that's just the dieing breath of a person without a life-jacket.

The love of Christ fills every true Christian. I wouldn't waste a bunch of time writing this "novels" if I didn't have a burden for the souls of Mormons.

If you love us so much, why dont you actually study what we believe? Read the Book of Mormon for yourself and try to learn the doctrine. Then you will know what you are talking about.

Just as Christ came down hard on the teachers of the day, called Pharisee's, I come down extra hard on those who caste a web of lies over myriads of novice Mormons, who think they've found eternal life in this false church.

Christ understood what the Pharisees taught. You, as you repeatedly demonstrate, haven't a clue.

 

[TofuDog]

Here's a serious question: avatar and truthspeaker, what made you seriously consider believing that your god is really an alien from another planet? You find his spaceship or something?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Here's a serious question: avatar and truthspeaker, what made you seriously consider believing that your god is really an alien from another planet? You find his spaceship or something?

Yeah totally, in fact, I was actually abducted by aliens and taken deep into the heart of Saturn. From there I was permitted to breathe the poisonous gasses without dying. It got me such a high that I was able to swim through space and land on each of Saturn's moons and set up a trading post for visiting klingons, borg's, vulcans and calerians. All the secrets of the universe were revealed to me by a giant intergalactic centipede who spoke to me through my communicater and translated it into english.
I was then teleported to meet the great big alien of which you speak. but if I told you all I heard, I'd have to kill you. because the mere mention of it would spawn a virus in you that(if spread) would turn all of the rest of you earthlings into zombies, like the ones from I am Legend.
By the way, will smith is the alien I was forced to worship him in this manner along with the other aliens there.

Seriously, that's my answer to your serious question.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Also, Avatar, you gotta teach me how to do that breakdown of quotes from a post one at a time. I don't understand how you separate those quotes like that. send me a message on how to do it please.

 

[TofuDog]

Here's a serious question: avatar and truthspeaker, what made you seriously consider believing that your god is really an alien from another planet? You find his spaceship or something?

Yeah totally, in fact, I was actually abducted by aliens and taken deep into the heart of Saturn. From there I was permitted to breathe the poisonous gasses without dying. It got me such a high that I was able to swim through space and land on each of Saturn's moons and set up a trading post for visiting klingons, borg's, vulcans and calerians. All the secrets of the universe were revealed to me by a giant intergalactic centipede who spoke to me through my communicater and translated it into english.
I was then teleported to meet the great big alien of which you speak. but if I told you all I heard, I'd have to kill you. because the mere mention of it would spawn a virus in you that(if spread) would turn all of the rest of you earthlings into zombies, like the ones from I am Legend.
By the way, will smith is the alien I was forced to worship him in this manner along with the other aliens there.

Seriously, that's my answer to your serious question.

That sounds about right.

 

[Truthspeaker]

So you are satisfied then?

 

[Eightball]

When Talking to a Mormon

Remember that the Mormon is trained to hide the difference between his beliefs and yours and to present himself as a Christian. However, his belief that he is a Christian is sincere, and his efforts to hide the distinctives of the Mormon religion are pursued in his desire to get you to accept Mormon teachings.

Do not allow glib, surface responses to go unchallenged; press the Mormon to define the Christian-sounding words he is using.

Define your own terms also. Draw the contrast for the Mormon. Calmly and clearly insist that what you and he believe about the nature of God, the identity of Jesus, the nature of man, salvation and eternal life are different. To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Appeal to his honesty and sense of fairness. You might say, "Look, we are not going to get anywhere unless we are honest with each other. Without making any statement about which one of us is right, can't we just acknowledge that we do not worship the same God?" or "Can't we just acknowledge that we do not have the same hope for the future?" Help the Mormon to consider the logical and philosophical problems with the Plan of Eternal Progression.

If God had a Father and He had a Father and so on — then who was the first God? Mormons say it is an "infinite regression". But since there is no way to cross an infinite distance or pass an infinite amount of time, there would be no way to get to "now" and to "us" from an infinite past. Time has to have had a beginning and it did. It began with the creation "of all things seen and unseen" by God. Mormons say that God is omnipotent (almighty, all-powerful), yet they say there are many Gods. There cannot be more than one omnipotent being, so the Mormon conception of God is shrunken and distorted.

A big selling point of the Mormon hope for the future is the idea that families will be together eternally. But if Mormons become Gods of planets and then their children become Gods of other planets — how do the children and parents get together? Can a God leave his planet unattended while he goes to a celestial family reunion? This Mormon selling point would be diminished if we Christians were more vocal about our hope for the "new heavens and new earth" in which we know one another in the all the relationships of our present lives, only in glory (2 Pet. 3.13, Rev. 21.1).

Welcome the participation of Mormons in causes which we share for the common good: strengthening family life, fighting pornography and abortion, fostering the virtue of patriotism. We honor each Mormon as a person who desires what is genuinely good for himself, his family and his society — and when we share the truths of the Christian faith with him.