The Truth about Mormons

[Ralph]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I enjoy posts like the last one. They were insightful and made me laugh at the same time. I like guys who are a little feisty with a sense of humor. Cheers. That's the reason I keep coming back to this thread. Anywhoo....

In Mormonism, it is a matter of absolutes: if one believes and practices and devotes themsleves to all that is their God and The Book of Mormon they are to be the chosen ones, Godly seated in the afterlife.

True but not just us. All those people who are pure in their hearts.

If, however, they do not believe in praising the lifestyle and God laid forth in The Book or Mormon, they are considered on the side of the devil. Explain, then, how a (theoretical) family in Africa worshipping a rock, yet believing in the blissful afterlife of all who believe otherwise, could be seen as people to be pitied for their lack of Mormon belief?

Our doctrine does not condemn those people because it's not as important what religion you belong to as what kind of person you are. There are lots of mysteries which we will never find out about while we are alive but we will find the answers to all questions on the other side. Good people, no matter their religion, will be fine on the other side.

Isn't indoctrinating in children that one religion is the correct and only religion really only teaching intollerance, or worse yet, hate? In principle I would agree. It all depends on the indoctrination. Does it teach tolerance, or hate. Our Prophet has preached from the pulpit "We say this to all those who are not of our faith: Keep all the good you have. We don't ask you to throw any of it away. Let us see if we can add to it." Our "indoctrination of our children is "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and constantly employ the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have done unto you. Hardly hateful or intolerant doctrines.

Truthspeaker, we both know intollerance has never gotten the human race anywhere. Why, then, do Mormons insist on barging into regions of the globe that have their own colorful ceremony and try to shame them out of those beliefs by either utilizing the "things won't be so bad if you convert to my religion" tactic, or by giving charity with one hand while asking acceptance of the Mormon God in return? We do nothing of the sort. We invite them to our church and ask them if they would like to join us. We never preach down to others because they believe different from us.

Why squash the diversity which makes the whole world go around?

We don't try to squash diversity. We preach tolerance and celebration of the individual.

Can't the church give without asking conversion or without plopping down temples in those places they bring aid to?

You should have seen the effort we did in New Orleans after the hurricane. We were there before the red cross because we didn't waste time alerting the media. Our humanitarian efforts are second to none in response time and amount of volunteer hours donated. There are many missions where proselyting isn't allowed so all missionaries do is look for service projects to do. I spent a large amount of my time in South Africa just plain working on people's back yards, lifting heavy loads, spending lots of time with Habitat for Humanity and anything we could look for to help others, big or small. We never asked many of the people who allowed us to serve them what church they belonged to or even if they wanted to come to our church. Just giving without expecting anything back.


I make a mean potato salad, Truthppeaker, but I don't go telling everyone mine's better than theirs when they seem so proud of theirs. What good do you do the world to try and crush the peaceful going about of others?

Last I checked, I or my church haven't been going around trying to crush anyone's peace. How are we doing that?

And don't come back with "But I AM tollerant." No, no you are not. You specifically went on a mission to convert others. They didn't stick you out there and just hope that Mormonism would come up in conversation over those two years... no, you got in people's face about it... because you believe you are right and they are wrong. Period. THAT is intollerance. Getting in people's face is not only intollerance, but smug intollerance.

Definition of tolerate: To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit. We do all of those things in regards to everyone who thinks differently than others. Trying to spread information about my religion so that people will not have misconceptions about my church was the stated purpose of my mission. Such a mission cannot possibly be considered intolerant. And I certainly never got in people's face about it. Sure I met with people face to face who wanted to talk with me but never, never forced anything on anyone. Never condemned anyone. You got me all wrong. I'm curious as to how much of this lengthy thread you have read of mine. If you had read much of it, I think you would have a different opinion than the stereotype you have labeled me with.

As if you are being so helpful as to save them when really you just can't stand the thought of coming back with no conversions. You want the GRAND SLAM, baby. You want to be the guy who comes back with 500 conversions - "They'll write about me, ya know!"

I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be delighted with many converts deciding to join us. But I know what is most important. My whole desire was to be of service on my mission. The Book of Mormon states "When ye are in the service of your fellow beings, ye are only in the service of your God." All the rest falls in line as fruits of your labors. I could care less about atta boys.


- not the guy who couldn't even sell a single candy bar for the school band trip. We all know you'd have had just as good of a time (or better) surfing and springing beautiful women for two years. But to come back home and say you surfed and worked as a lifeguard for two years isn't going to bring any Mormon Atta-Boys, is it.

I guess I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks for assuming that I could gather beautiful women around me. I guess we'd have to poll the ladies about that one to know for sure. I can't surf so that wasn't a temptation. I tried once but couldn't get up on the board. I'll stick to baseball or basketball. All they had to play out there was soccer, which I did do my fair share of. But more importantly on a mission you are not allowed to date and for good reason. You don't need any extra distractions while on a full time mission. Actually one of the jokes on our mission is that the harder you serve on your mission the more beautiful your future wife will be. Those that break the rigorous mission rules are sent home immediately. But there aren't too many who do because they chose to go. They even paid out of pocket to go. No one gets paid. Weird huh?

Finally, what are you so affraid of in this life that you would spend it frantically preparing for the afterlife?

Fear doesn't drive me. It's the pursuit of happiness that does. And I don't do anything frantically. Fervently would be a more appropriate word.

"Whether it's God or The Bomb... it's just the same: it's only 'Fear' under another name."
Mormon chapter 8 verse 16 "...charity is the pure love of Christ, and perfect love casteth out all fear."


Why couldn't you be happy enough just living, dying, then being food and nutrients for another lifeform to take shape? Not comforting enough to you?

Sorry, not comforting enough to me. I'd rather believe in conscious eternal life with my family and friends. If you would rather be food that's your desire and more power to you.

You look like a bright kid, too. Why thank you

I hope then, for your sake, your Mormonism thing is right, 'cause boy oh boy are you going to be one SUPER bummed little soldier if the lights go out and that's all she wrote.If the lights go out and that's all she wrote, I'd rather go to my grave knowing I did what makes me happy and makes me a more honorable person than just living my life for individual selfish pleasures and following no principles except the principle of anything goes.


Plant me with the seed of a tree, and all that is me will live a thousand years more. To each their own desires.

Good luck with your whole afterlife thing. Keep spreading the word and anticipating (belief is a manmade concept) the unknown. Sounds like religion is a really time-consuming hobby, filled with guilt and silly rules beyond those of "common sense" teachings of all mankind. If it keeps you from killing people or stealing or cheating or lying, more power to ya bud. But you don't need religion to be a grand person, or to feel happy and fulfilled... Or... perhaps your free will has already died, and you truly do need Mormonism now.
Eek, what shackles.

I don't see it the way you do. I don't feel shackled at all. I feel set free by the truth. When people find something to believe in and wholeheartedly devote themselves to something, then are they truly happy. Because they have a plan for their lives and never feel lost. But thanks for the encouragement. Now I encourage you to to what you feel is the right thing to do for yourself to bring you true happiness and enlightenment.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Bravo on the questions. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to answer them all. I have answered almost all of them throughout the lengthy dialogue of fantastic questions I have been getting on this thread. You may want to read it from the beginning but if you don't want to take the time you'll have to wait for me to repeat myself tomorrow. Or maybe Avatar will handle it before I get back on.

Adieu!

 

[Ralph]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Bravo on the questions. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to answer them all. I have answered almost all of them throughout the lengthy dialogue of fantastic questions I have been getting on this thread. You may want to read it from the beginning but if you don't want to take the time you'll have to wait for me to repeat myself tomorrow. Or maybe Avatar will handle it before I get back on.

Adieu!

Just a couple more questions to ponder while you consult whatever source you must in an attempt to reconcile the faith of Mormonism with the truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures. I don't know you from Adam....no pun intended. But when and if you do attempt to propagate your faith as TRUTH....the very first mission that you will begin to trek is simple....as YOU MUST...if you wish to continue to propagate Mormonism as truth...is to begin with an all out attack on the VALIDITY of the Holy Scriptures....to present the current format as containing ERROR and being Corrupted over the years by dogma....and tradition. This is always mandatory...because of the obvious conflict of Doctrine that is found in the Canon of the 27 books of the New Testament with the Book of Mormon. But the strange thing? While attempting to point out the corruption thereof.....you will NOT be able to empirically debunk one passage therein with any true OBJECTIVE empirical evidence offered by physical science of history actual...yet you must continue to declare the scriptures as SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead of the OBJECTIVE truth they are proven to be. Why? Because if you can make YOURSELF accept such a position then.....Mormonism is a far easier pill to swallow, as it is very easily debunked as having any empirical background in relation to science or history.

A few examples of contradiction. Mormonism "claims" to be represented by modern prophets, that have received NEW REVELATION from the God of Creation in a mere continuance of knowledge and divine guidance in relation to RIGHTEOUS Christian Doctrine that was first established in the New Testament of Christ.

The very first question that must be asked in a most logical fashion is this.....Just how is "perfection" and "all" to be added unto in relation to Christian Doctrine? We are told in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus, who commissioned the Holy Spirit of Truth, calling Him from Heaven to help establish doctrine in the infant kingdom of God...aka The Church of Christ, would provide 'ALL TRUTH' to the apostles of the 1st century through the divine inspiration of that same Holy Spirit of Truth. (John 14:26, 16:13) Once again...the basic question, "Just how does anyone add unto ALL TRUTH, and make the Perfect Law of Liberty ( James 1:25).....MORE PERFECT?" Especially after the Holy Spirit of Truth inspired the truth as established ONCE FOR ALL TIME....by the saints of the 1st century (Jude 3).

With the Apostle Peter informing us that we have been given EVERYTHING pertaining to LIFE and GODLINESS -- 2 Peter 1:3. And the Apostle Paul informing us that the Holy Scriptures....which are ALL inspired by God, have the capacity to make the 'man of God' PERFECT by being "throughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS".....with the Holy Scriptures being profitable to establish Doctrine, and to use for CORRECTION, AND REPROOF ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17).....of course, with these revelations coming in the 1st century.

With the next question....."Just where does the authority come from....to have PERFECTION and ALL added unto, and what signs and wonders accompanied that NEW REVELATION....to confirm this revelation as coming from God?" Just how many dead were raised by Mr. Smith....how many lame were healed....how many blind from birth were made to see? Just asking....where is this witnessed conformation that accompanies all TRUE PROPHETS of God, as were those in the 1st century? The recording of Miracles were to cause belief in Christ -- John 20:30-31. Miracles showed the masses that the Apostles were messengers from God and were teaching truth (Heb. 2:1-4).....where is the record of the miraculous that was used to establish as truth....the message of Mormonism as being from God? The Apostles Words were confirmed by Signs -- Mk. 16:20.

The Need for the Miraculous has ceased. The Holy Spirit was sent to teach and remind the Apostles (John 14:26)....not modern man after the Perfect Law of Liberty had already been established and Confirmed in Doctrine and TRUTH. The Scriptures informed us that the Apostles were not ready to understand everything that Jesus had been instructing them in.....So, Jesus commissioned Him (The Holy Spirit) to continue to teach them (John 16:12-13). And what that Holy Spirit taught them....they were to record for future generations of mankind ( 2 Peter 1:3, 12-15).

Once written.....miraculous reminders of the past would no longer be needed nor required, as all anyone need do is OPEN THE BOOK to be enlightened and edified in both Truth and Doctrine (Jude 3). It was only the Apostles that were informed they could work miracles in the name of Jesus....not all believers....(Mk. 16:14-20)....take note of the pronoun change in vs. 16.

Also note that ONLY the Apostles could pass on those miraculous gifts....by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-19). No one else was recorded as having this divine ability of the Spirit...to pass on those gifts. Paul clearly and quite unambiguously tells us....the need for the Miraculous would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-13). This could not be the end of the age....as Faith, Hope and Charity would remain. James tells us quite clearly and unambiguously the NEW TESTAMENT....is that which is PERFECT (James 1:25)...as it is the Perfect Law of Liberty.

God is not the author of CONFUSION.....why then does Mr. Smith attempt to confuse us and tell us that man needs MORE truth....More Perfection....More Doctrine.....after God has revealed to us that we have EVERYTHING we need pertaining to Life and Godliness...in the words of truth already revealed by the Holy Spirit of Truth?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Bravo on the questions. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to answer them all. I have answered almost all of them throughout the lengthy dialogue of fantastic questions I have been getting on this thread. You may want to read it from the beginning but if you don't want to take the time you'll have to wait for me to repeat myself tomorrow. Or maybe Avatar will handle it before I get back on.

Adieu!

Just a couple more questions to ponder while you consult whatever source you must in an attempt to reconcile the faith of Mormonism with the truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures. I don't know you from Adam....no pun intended. But when and if you do attempt to propagate your faith as TRUTH....the very first mission that you will begin to trek is simple....as YOU MUST...if you wish to continue to propagate Mormonism as truth...is to begin with an all out attack on the VALIDITY of the Holy Scriptures....to present the current format as containing ERROR and being Corrupted over the years by dogma....and tradition. This is always mandatory...because of the obvious conflict of Doctrine that is found in the Canon of the 27 books of the New Testament with the Book of Mormon. But the strange thing? While attempting to point out the corruption thereof.....you will NOT be able to empirically debunk one passage therein with any true OBJECTIVE empirical evidence offered by physical science of history actual...yet you must continue to declare the scriptures as SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead of the OBJECTIVE truth they are proven to be. Why? Because if you can make YOURSELF accept such a position then.....Mormonism is a far easier pill to swallow, as it is very easily debunked as having any empirical background in relation to science or history.

A few examples of contradiction. Mormonism "claims" to be represented by modern prophets, that have received NEW REVELATION from the God of Creation in a mere continuance of knowledge and divine guidance in relation to RIGHTEOUS Christian Doctrine that was first established in the New Testament of Christ.

The very first question that must be asked in a most logical fashion is this.....Just how is "perfection" and "all" to be added unto in relation to Christian Doctrine? We are told in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus, who commissioned the Holy Spirit of Truth, calling Him from Heaven to help establish doctrine in the infant kingdom of God...aka The Church of Christ, would provide 'ALL TRUTH' to the apostles of the 1st century through the divine inspiration of that same Holy Spirit of Truth. (John 14:26, 16:13) Once again...the basic question, "Just how does anyone add unto ALL TRUTH, and make the Perfect Law of Liberty ( James 1:25).....MORE PERFECT?" Especially after the Holy Spirit of Truth inspired the truth as established ONCE FOR ALL TIME....by the saints of the 1st century (Jude 3).

With the Apostle Peter informing us that we have been given EVERYTHING pertaining to LIFE and GODLINESS -- 2 Peter 1:3. And the Apostle Paul informing us that the Holy Scriptures....which are ALL inspired by God, have the capacity to make the 'man of God' PERFECT by being "throughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS".....with the Holy Scriptures being profitable to establish Doctrine, and to use for CORRECTION, AND REPROOF ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17).....of course, with these revelations coming in the 1st century.

With the next question....."Just where does the authority come from....to have PERFECTION and ALL added unto, and what signs and wonders accompanied that NEW REVELATION....to confirm this revelation as coming from God?" Just how many dead were raised by Mr. Smith....how many lame were healed....how many blind from birth were made to see? Just asking....where is this witnessed conformation that accompanies all TRUE PROPHETS of God, as were those in the 1st century? The recording of Miracles were to cause belief in Christ -- John 20:30-31. Miracles showed the masses that the Apostles were messengers from God and were teaching truth (Heb. 2:1-4).....where is the record of the miraculous that was used to establish as truth....the message of Mormonism as being from God? The Apostles Words were confirmed by Signs -- Mk. 16:20.

The Need for the Miraculous has ceased. The Holy Spirit was sent to teach and remind the Apostles (John 14:26)....not modern man after the Perfect Law of Liberty had already been established and Confirmed in Doctrine and TRUTH. The Scriptures informed us that the Apostles were not ready to understand everything that Jesus had been instructing them in.....So, Jesus commissioned Him (The Holy Spirit) to continue to teach them (John 16:12-13). And what that Holy Spirit taught them....they were to record for future generations of mankind ( 2 Peter 1:3, 12-15).

Once written.....miraculous reminders of the past would no longer be needed nor required, as all anyone need do is OPEN THE BOOK to be enlightened and edified in both Truth and Doctrine (Jude 3). It was only the Apostles that were informed they could work miracles in the name of Jesus....not all believers....(Mk. 16:14-20)....take note of the pronoun change in vs. 16.

Also note that ONLY the Apostles could pass on those miraculous gifts....by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-19). No one else was recorded as having this divine ability of the Spirit...to pass on those gifts. Paul clearly and quite unambiguously tells us....the need for the Miraculous would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-13). This could not be the end of the age....as Faith, Hope and Charity would remain. James tells us quite clearly and unambiguously the NEW TESTAMENT....is that which is PERFECT (James 1:25)...as it is the Perfect Law of Liberty.

God is not the author of CONFUSION.....why then does Mr. Smith attempt to confuse us and tell us that man needs MORE truth....More Perfection....More Doctrine.....after God has revealed to us that we have EVERYTHING we need pertaining to Life and Godliness...in the words of truth already revealed by the Holy Spirit of Truth?

If you want me to take time to answer these(which I will definitely do) You would do yourself and myself a favor by bringing the questions one at a time so I don't have to spend a half hour out of my workday repeating myself. You really should read from the beginning if you want to catch up to the point where the rest of us are. Just hold your horses. Hopefully you listen a little better than some others who simply copy and paste anti-mormon speak only to get their questions answered and forget and ask the same questions over and over. And by the way, I don't need to consult any more sources to answer your easy questions. I did all of that years ago. You should probably consult the answers already given in the thread. It's only going to take me time because I have to type all the answers in detail so that everyone can understand them. Happy catching up.

 

[HUGGY]

Gotta serious question for you TS. Are you doing this campagne on your own or are you being egged on by the LDS formally or otherwise?

 

[OregonJayBird]

You seem a genuinely happy believer. That makes me feel wonderful to know you're out there spreading tolerance within your fatih, my friend. There are too few of you in ALL faiths.

Cheers to you and yours, and only the happiest, most fulfilling of journeys for you. Thank you for the intelligible spar, and may your God bless you always and forever, Truthspeaker. For regardless of how I feel about your religion as a whole I truly believe you house a kind and gentle soul.

 

[Arawyn]

Gotta serious question for you TS. Are you doing this campagne on your own or are you being egged on by the LDS formally or otherwise?

We LDS routinely send out marching orders that must be followed or excommunication will come. Why just yesterday, we ordered that members could only eat green jello salad for the day.......

 

[Eightball]

Gotta serious question for you TS. Are you doing this campagne on your own or are you being egged on by the LDS formally or otherwise?

We LDS routinely send out marching orders that must be followed or excommunication will come. Why just yesterday, we ordered that members could only eat green jello salad for the day.......

You joke over that, but you know that if you don't tow the line, and your LDS elder finds out, you'll be getting a knock at your door for a nice friendly talk.

I would hypothesize that Truthspeaker is an elder or higher.

LDS like to deflect the big questions that really stump them, and bascially throw-up the old "faith" defense, that God confirmed it via the H.S.. Sadly, their understanding of the work of the H.S. is all humanistically origined, and has no scriptural origin.

Depending on dreams, visions, and basic warm fuzzies is what keeps cults in vogue. Satan is the author, and his "wide" road is crammed nearly to the point of gridlock.

Mormon missionaries regularly tell their "prey" at the porch of the home, to simply "pray and ask God to confirm if Mormonism is the truth", and folks who are ignorant of the ramifications of doing that will abide. Satan marks up another soul to his bondage each time that prayer is thrown-up. Why? Cause the bible does not tell us to confirm God's reality/presence by prayer, but by gleaning it from His Word/Scripture, and then by faith, puting our faith in prayer, and confidence based on what scripture has revealed of His nature.

The bible is a two edged sword, that cuts to the very "marrow" of the individual. It convicts, it reveals, it shines light, and lays open the very soul of every man/woman who is willing to allow His truth to bear down on their soul. As a result, humanity has a choice; repent, in humility, with a contrite heart, and believe on the finished work of salvation through God's Son as it applies personally to oneself, or reject it as too much to give up, to gain everything plus more.

J.S. Jr. created a humanistic authored gospel, that fed into humanity's lost Adamic nature to a "tee". Polygamy was allowed, and in the bible it wasn't, as it always caused calamity and discord in lives/families.

J.S. Jr. turned the virgin birth into a physical union between Mary and the LDS god, which agaiin devalued and humanized the biblical Holy God of the O.T. and N.T..

What is the LDS defense?

1. We are victims of the big old nasty bible believing world.
2. We are potential martyrs for our faith in our prophets and their doctrines set down.
3. Then they use the old "Mormon hater" defense, not unlike anyone that abhors homosexuality is called a homophobe by the "gay" community, and liberal pandering politicians.
4. We are the only true Christian church. God restored His church through our prophet J.S. jr..
5. Mormons deny the obvious evidences that their BOM is built upon sand and know solid foundations, having withing it's pages retitled, plagerized bible scripture as well as fantastic of North and South American history that cannot to this day be confirmed.
6. J.S. Jr. must die a martyr regardless of the secular and non-Mormon authors of the press that record a very different story of his death.
7. There are myriads of holes to patch that have not to this day been patched.
8. Even the bible that was written thousands of years before the BOM saw all men as equals in God's eyes, yet the LDS church discriminated against Black people joining the LDS priesthood. That is pathetic, and racist to the core. Even the teaching that Cain's curse of was the Negroid race's curse of dark skin is absurd.
9. Brigham Young was just as much a false prophet as J.S. Jr..
10.To know that so many of the oaths, handshakes, rituals in the Temple are directly taken from Freemasonry, and still believe that your church is a calling from God is to really be "hooked" or to really "want to believe" that your church is right despite the evidences.

Post-1979 two-piece temple garments end just above the knee for both sexes. Women's garment have a rounded or sweetheart neckline with cap sleeves. Male tops are available in tee-shirt styles.[
Wikipedia

Researchers who interviewed a sample of Latter-day Saints who wear the temple garment reported that virtually all wearers expressed a belief that wearing the garment provided "spiritual protection" and encouraged them to keep their covenants.[24] Some of those interviewed "asserted that the garment also provided physical protection, while others seemed less certain of any physical aspect to protection."[24] In Mormon folklore, tales are told of Latter-day Saints who credit their temple garments with helping them survive car wrecks, fires, and natural disasters

 

[Montrovant]

I'm wondering if anyone else in this thread finds it ironic that someone would question the veracity of one book of faith based on another book of faith? That the book of Mormon cannot be true, it is full of contradiction, and this can be determined through the truth of the Bible seems funny to me

Sorry for the interruption, feel free to get back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[BrokenAngel]

NuuuU!!!! Ebilness! That poll is so wrong. LoL No offense meant to Mormons, I have plenty of Mormon friends, but I view Mormons about as Christian as I Christians are Jewish. Once you add on a new book you should not try to associate yourself under the name your religion would have been if you hadn't had it. You have Mormons, Christians/Catholics, and Jews... those titles should not be crossed or mixed because the belief structures are so extremely different thanks to what the newer Biblical text gives as instructions on life.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Gotta serious question for you TS. Are you doing this campagne on your own or are you being egged on by the LDS formally or otherwise?

On my own. We don't get paid so there is no other motivation other than my stated purpose in the very first post.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Gotta serious question for you TS. Are you doing this campagne on your own or are you being egged on by the LDS formally or otherwise?

We LDS routinely send out marching orders that must be followed or excommunication will come. Why just yesterday, we ordered that members could only eat green jello salad for the day.......

I know it's tempting but you gotta be nicer you beautiful elvish mormon lady.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I'm wondering if anyone else in this thread finds it ironic that someone would question the veracity of one book of faith based on another book of faith? That the book of Mormon cannot be true, it is full of contradiction, and this can be determined through the truth of the Bible seems funny to me

Sorry for the interruption, feel free to get back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Ya know you and I are on exactly the same page. the same attacks on the Book of mormon could be leveled against the Bible. It's not one book versus the other, it's both of them on the same team.
You seem a clever fellow.

 

[Truthspeaker]

NuuuU!!!! Ebilness! That poll is so wrong. LoL No offense meant to Mormons, I have plenty of Mormon friends, but I view Mormons about as Christian as I Christians are Jewish. Once you add on a new book you should not try to associate yourself under the name your religion would have been if you hadn't had it. You have Mormons, Christians/Catholics, and Jews... those titles should not be crossed or mixed because the belief structures are so extremely different thanks to what the newer Biblical text gives as instructions on life.

We've never been "Mormons". We've always been The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Mormons is an old nickname the missourians gave us and because it's shorter it stuck. Mormon himself was just another Christian man from the church of Jesus Christ in his day.
We claim all salvation through Jesus Christ. What's more christian than that?

 

[Sky Dancer]

In all honesty and fairness I am both friendly to and bigoted toward LDS. Friendly toward the human beings who happen to be LDS and biased against their anti-gay activism.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Bravo on the questions. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to answer them all. I have answered almost all of them throughout the lengthy dialogue of fantastic questions I have been getting on this thread. You may want to read it from the beginning but if you don't want to take the time you'll have to wait for me to repeat myself tomorrow. Or maybe Avatar will handle it before I get back on.

Adieu!

Just a couple more questions to ponder while you consult whatever source you must in an attempt to reconcile the faith of Mormonism with the truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures. I don't know you from Adam....no pun intended. But when and if you do attempt to propagate your faith as TRUTH....the very first mission that you will begin to trek is simple....as YOU MUST...if you wish to continue to propagate Mormonism as truth...is to begin with an all out attack on the VALIDITY of the Holy Scriptures....to present the current format as containing ERROR and being Corrupted over the years by dogma....and tradition. This is always mandatory...because of the obvious conflict of Doctrine that is found in the Canon of the 27 books of the New Testament with the Book of Mormon. But the strange thing? While attempting to point out the corruption thereof.....you will NOT be able to empirically debunk one passage therein with any true OBJECTIVE empirical evidence offered by physical science of history actual...yet you must continue to declare the scriptures as SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead of the OBJECTIVE truth they are proven to be. Why? Because if you can make YOURSELF accept such a position then.....Mormonism is a far easier pill to swallow, as it is very easily debunked as having any empirical background in relation to science or history.

A few examples of contradiction. Mormonism "claims" to be represented by modern prophets, that have received NEW REVELATION from the God of Creation in a mere continuance of knowledge and divine guidance in relation to RIGHTEOUS Christian Doctrine that was first established in the New Testament of Christ.

The very first question that must be asked in a most logical fashion is this.....Just how is "perfection" and "all" to be added unto in relation to Christian Doctrine? We are told in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus, who commissioned the Holy Spirit of Truth, calling Him from Heaven to help establish doctrine in the infant kingdom of God...aka The Church of Christ, would provide 'ALL TRUTH' to the apostles of the 1st century through the divine inspiration of that same Holy Spirit of Truth. (John 14:26, 16:13) Once again...the basic question, "Just how does anyone add unto ALL TRUTH, and make the Perfect Law of Liberty ( James 1:25).....MORE PERFECT?" Especially after the Holy Spirit of Truth inspired the truth as established ONCE FOR ALL TIME....by the saints of the 1st century (Jude 3).

With the Apostle Peter informing us that we have been given EVERYTHING pertaining to LIFE and GODLINESS -- 2 Peter 1:3. And the Apostle Paul informing us that the Holy Scriptures....which are ALL inspired by God, have the capacity to make the 'man of God' PERFECT by being "throughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS".....with the Holy Scriptures being profitable to establish Doctrine, and to use for CORRECTION, AND REPROOF ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17).....of course, with these revelations coming in the 1st century.

With the next question....."Just where does the authority come from....to have PERFECTION and ALL added unto, and what signs and wonders accompanied that NEW REVELATION....to confirm this revelation as coming from God?" Just how many dead were raised by Mr. Smith....how many lame were healed....how many blind from birth were made to see? Just asking....where is this witnessed conformation that accompanies all TRUE PROPHETS of God, as were those in the 1st century? The recording of Miracles were to cause belief in Christ -- John 20:30-31. Miracles showed the masses that the Apostles were messengers from God and were teaching truth (Heb. 2:1-4).....where is the record of the miraculous that was used to establish as truth....the message of Mormonism as being from God? The Apostles Words were confirmed by Signs -- Mk. 16:20.

The Need for the Miraculous has ceased. The Holy Spirit was sent to teach and remind the Apostles (John 14:26)....not modern man after the Perfect Law of Liberty had already been established and Confirmed in Doctrine and TRUTH. The Scriptures informed us that the Apostles were not ready to understand everything that Jesus had been instructing them in.....So, Jesus commissioned Him (The Holy Spirit) to continue to teach them (John 16:12-13). And what that Holy Spirit taught them....they were to record for future generations of mankind ( 2 Peter 1:3, 12-15).

Once written.....miraculous reminders of the past would no longer be needed nor required, as all anyone need do is OPEN THE BOOK to be enlightened and edified in both Truth and Doctrine (Jude 3). It was only the Apostles that were informed they could work miracles in the name of Jesus....not all believers....(Mk. 16:14-20)....take note of the pronoun change in vs. 16.

Also note that ONLY the Apostles could pass on those miraculous gifts....by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-19). No one else was recorded as having this divine ability of the Spirit...to pass on those gifts. Paul clearly and quite unambiguously tells us....the need for the Miraculous would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-13). This could not be the end of the age....as Faith, Hope and Charity would remain. James tells us quite clearly and unambiguously the NEW TESTAMENT....is that which is PERFECT (James 1:25)...as it is the Perfect Law of Liberty.

God is not the author of CONFUSION.....why then does Mr. Smith attempt to confuse us and tell us that man needs MORE truth....More Perfection....More Doctrine.....after God has revealed to us that we have EVERYTHING we need pertaining to Life and Godliness...in the words of truth already revealed by the Holy Spirit of Truth?

I really, truly am chomping at the bit to get to these wonderful statements and questions of yours. I've got answers in my back pocket to all of them. I'll need an hour to fully address them satisfactorily because it'll take me time to go through them all. But I read them and am excited. I just need to spend more time with my family and two kids. Probably on Saturday night I'll take the necessary hour and put it clear to you. But thanks for your patience in waiting

 

[Ralph]

Well.....we do have an ETERNITY, you know. Take your time. Attempt to debunk the truth found in the Holy Scriptures that informed us that ALL TRUTH was delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth in the first century. Thus far.....we have numerous retorts of DEFLECTION, but no answers. Mormonism is much in the same boat as is ISLAM...both faiths were established by MAN, centuries after Jesus established His kingdom/church here on earth. Islam 7th centuries after and Mormonism 19 centuries after....history even proves the Catholic Church was not established until the 4th century. There is only ONE true Church and it was established on the day of Pentecost after the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, when Peter used the Keys to that Kingdom that Jesus had given him (Matthew 16:19)......Peter opened the door of that kingdom and informed everyone what they must do to become a citizen therein (Acts 2:38). Peter had been given the authority to bind doctrine here on earth with his words of revelation, provided by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "And I (Jesus) will give to thee keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." -- Matthew 16:19

This is much like the nonsense that I have heard some espouse. Paul was not a true apostle of Christ and was never accepted by the other apostles....Paul made up his own faith. Strange that we find the very one that had been given the authority to establish New Testament Doctrine here on earth (Peter).....declaring and accepting all Paul's writings as truth and even comparing them with ALL OTHER SCRIPTURE...even old testament scripture all the while calling him a brother in the faith of Christianity, "....and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation -- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, has written to you, as also in his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, WHICH UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES." -- 2 Peter 3:14

 

[Eightball]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Bravo on the questions. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to answer them all. I have answered almost all of them throughout the lengthy dialogue of fantastic questions I have been getting on this thread. You may want to read it from the beginning but if you don't want to take the time you'll have to wait for me to repeat myself tomorrow. Or maybe Avatar will handle it before I get back on.

Adieu!

You don't have the time to rebuke God's Word the Bible. You always have time to answer the questions that don't put you face to face with the bible. Right?

Ralph has presented valid points from the bible. Are you going to deflect? I can't wait to see how you show "Ralph" how the bible is wrong, and how your churches' doctrine is correct.

Oh, I forgot, your the Christian, we are the one's following the corrupted text called the bible.

Oops, gotta go now, Avatar my Mormon tag-team member will answer all question while I leave town for awhile until these darn "biblical Christians" disappear from the thread.

 

[Eightball]

I have started this post because it still seems there are a lot of people out there that don't understand our religion. One thing I know I can do is clarify a lot misconceptions that people have.
I served a two year mission in South Africa, and I think I have pretty much heard it all. I actually would welcome some questions that I haven't heard before.
I know some of you aren't interested in what we really believe, but are only going to be interested in trying to trap me in my words, but that's ok. I welcome those attempts as well. Let's see what this develops into.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Excellent post, Ralph. Succinct, to the point, using direct biblical references.

The Word Of God is a Two Edged Sword. It reveals man's intentions to the core of his/her innermost being. It forces transparency of the soul, or deflection, in the form of denial, anger, anxiety, fleeing-away.
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