The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Ok I finally found some time. However after reading all of your posts and realizing you have a condescending spirit towards me and my church, I hope this message gets through. I also notice you quote scriptures after everything you state. That's great and all but you must understand that the reason there are so many different christian churches is because there are almost as many different interpretations of the Bible as there are churches. So just quoting lots of scriptures to me(all of which I have been familiar with for years) reeks more of trying to show off rather than trying to edify. Anywhoo, I hope we can have a respectful dialogue between the two of us.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

This scripture is very well known among us. Paul, while on his trip to Galatia was trying to warn recent converts of the perils of different doctrines other than the ones Christ taught to his apostles. Unity in doctrine among Christ's church is essential to the order of God. Simply stated, it doesn't matter who is teaching false doctrine, and angel or a man, we must reject anything that is outside the will of Christ. I agree whole-heartedly. That's why we never preach any other gospel besides the gospel of Christ. You should probably read the Book of Mormon if you love Jesus. You would find yourself very pleased by the Christian statements in the book you have launched an assault on.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

Actually the older more correct version of the Bible, The King James version states that we are supposed to "Prove all things." Pretty much the same thing but in the verse just before it says despise not prophesyings. So it tells us in those two verses to prove the prophesyings we are going to hear. This indicates God will continue to speak to us and we need to have a discerning spirit and follow the rules God has set forth for identifying true and false prophets. Jesus said about false prophets that should arise in the last days"By their fruits ye shall know them." What they do and say must be in harmony with Jesus. Joseph's statements were in every way in harmony with Christ's.

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

I don't know why you said "One Question..." when you asked much more than that and continue to ask many more. It's just funny is all I'm saying.

Certainly when prophets inspired of God write you should expect to find no error in their doctrines. I don't think god ever made a rule about his prophets having perfect grammar or spelling. The doctrine is what is most important. If there was 1 single error in doctrine then it would not be inspired of God and could not be tolerated. That being said however, let's really take a look at how many "errors" there really were.

In order to intelligently understand the book of mormon, you must understand what it actually claims to be. This is a statement from Mormon, a man who lived in the mid 5th century, and in charge of watching over all the sacred records of the Nephite people. Listen Carefully to his claim which was found on the last leaf of the plates, which was effectively the first page of the book, because in their culture they read from right to left, like most near easter languages of the same origin:
THE
BOOK OF MORMON
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY

THE HAND OF MORMON

UPON PLATES

TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.


Ok I'm back now. Understand this is not a modern western man speaking to us in modern western terms. This is the understanding everyone must take when reading a record which is ancient, or claims to be ancient. You must understand how languages change over time and be willing to try and get into the minds of the people of the time, their culture, their religion, their customs etc. It is very easy to glance at some of the statements of any ancient book and take their statements out of context because of our ignorance of the ancient people we read about. Therefore, we must do true research before we embarrass ourselves by dismissing something which upon closer examination, has incredible authenticity.

The next bit of context to understand is the background and culture of the people in Joseph Smith's time compared to 2009. There are so many factors to consider that I won't go into them all but most importantly what we must understand is that God speaks to us in the language of our customs and times so when ancient scripture is translated it is going to have a different flavor than a modern prophets words because of the idioms of culture etc.

When God prepared the plates for Joseph Smith, and uneducated farm boy, he gave Joseph two seer stones to look through and decipher the ancient language. The words were given to him one at a time and Joseph would speak them to his translator. The Scribe would write the words one by one. Today's high school students are by and large far more accomplished in reading and writing than most school teachers in 1830. So the scribes who were more grammatically sound than Joseph smith would still make spellling mistakes. Many grammatical statements were noticed by the scribes in process of the translation but Joseph told him not to change them because the statements, however grammatically incorrect in English, were 100 percent accurate in terms of a literal translation from the ancient languages. These grammatically incorrect English statements now become powerful authenticity stamps as they show accuracy in the mind of the ancients. They reveal idioms and patterns of speech which don't make sense to a westerner but make perfect sense to a Bedouin Arab, or Jew or Egyptian, or all at the same time. The lack of education of the translator, long an excuse for mockery of the man and the book, has now become an immutable stamp of authenticity on the book. Certainly no westerner could have possibly written a book full of clear Bedouin Arab, Jewish, and Egyptian traditions with any accuracy. Especially since virtually all of what we have come to know about the ancient middle east has been learned within the last 100 years. Even the most learned scholars of 1830, had no clue about ancient customs in the old world of Jerusalem. Archaeology was only in it's infancy. Oh the things they would find out later!
So anywhoo, spelling mistakes can be corrected(Just like I sometimes make in my posts), so can grammar. Doctrinal mistakes cannot be corrected and have not been made to the book.

On to the next one.

You see why I needed to take time to explain this. I'll be very impressed if you actually read all of this. There will be a quiz later.

I

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D.

This one is a piece of cake. There are two statements I have in response to the compass. The english word compass is the best word we have to describe the Liahona. But if it just read Liahona, the western reader would not understand the noun. It was an instrument sent from God to Lehi and his family to point the direction they should travel through the Arabian desert and across the Indian and Pacific Ocean. Compass is the best word in english to describe it since we are not of that language or time. So that is what God inspired Joseph to write. You see the focus on purpose rather than irrelevant statements like "the compass wasn't invented until 1100AD."

Plus take this into consideration: The compass as we know it today was invented in 1100AD. But the world is a big place and back then there were to copyright laws or international communication. That's just the first widespread invention of the modern compass. History is always revealing new things. History is always changing. The Liahona may not even have been the first compass. There is a lot of undiscovered truth out there. You need to be more careful with such absolute historical statements that are subject to change upon the next big discovery. But for right now the Liahona is the first "compass" until further evidence shows.

Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another easy one. Adieu is as much an English word as a French word. Especially in the language and culture of Joseph Smith's day. The poignance and formality which Mormon was trying to convey in his farewell speech was more accurately described to English speakers as Adieu. You have to admit it carries a different feel than a simple goodbye or even farewell. Adieu, like many other words from other languages are adopted into English, like the also french Lassez-faire, or the German gazunteit. We all know what they mean, but have different origins. Very simple.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

I think you mean predicted and not predicated. This one is at once to an uneducated westerner appearing to be a contradiction but again upon close examination becomes another strong stamp of authenticity on the book.

In Joseph's day and especially in the heavily Christian upstate new york area, EVERYONE KNEW, especially Joseph Smith that Jesus was born in bethlehem. It was more commonly known back then than it is today because everyone read the the bible. Many times it was the only book in the house. Joseph's mother read the book to them every night before all her children went to bed. Oliver Cowdery remarked upon the "Jerusalem" statement in the middle of translation. Joseph told him the same explanation I am going to tell you:

Alma was preaching a sermon at this time in 83 BC. 83 BC is important because remember it's now been over 500 years since their ancestors left the Holy Land. Bethlehem wasn't a big town even in Christ's day, then how much smaller would it have been in 600 BC. The first notice of the town was as the burial place of rachel in Genesis. So although it may be old, there is no indication of it ever being a big landmark type of place. Certainly not to Meso-American inhabitants of 83 BC. They had only heard that their ancestors came from "the land of Jerusalem", but knew nothing of it's topography or surrounding suburbs, of which Bethlehem was one. Now Alma in the same scripture you quoted would have been fine even if he did say "in" Jerusalem because the audience would have been confused if he said Bethlehem. they wouldn't know the part of the world Alma was talking about. It just so happens that the direct quote was "at Jerusalem" which encompasses the broader geography of the area and not so much the city of Jerusalem. Which is an impressive statement of accuracy now that we have taken a closer look at what is actually written instead of what is assumed. Joseph Smith understood the context and therefore was not bothered by the word Jerusalem.

it's the same as when I tell people I'm from San Francisco but I'm really from an outlying suburb nearby that they've never heard of. Anybody heard of Walnut Creek? So it would be pointless for me to say I'm from Walnut Creek on a national Message board.

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

This one is so easy I can barely stand it. Just because Nephi had a vision into the future of Jesus' birth doesn't mean he named him. He just saw what Mary would name him. Nephi was not given naming rights for the Christ child. And guess what?! Jesus wasn't called Jesus or Christ by his people either. It was Yeshua or Messiah. 6 and a half of 1 or half a dozen of the other. It's the same thing. The bible translators did the same thing Joseph Smith did with the Book of Mormon; translated the words into the common english of the day. I don't see any problem with that.

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?

Yes perhaps you are misinformed. and I would like to enlighten you with the truth on the matter.
It is a common misconception that Christ instituted his church first in Jerusalem during his living ministry. But since Jesus is the great I AM, even the Jehovah of the Old testament, I maintain he instituted his church with Adam, the first Priest of the church. All the sacrifices they were to perform, including the sacrifices given in the Law of Moses, were symbolic of the sacrifice Jesus would make on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemane. Adam was the first Christian. And by the way since Christian, means "of Christ" and Christ is in greek "the annointed one" that means we have another greek word that has now become English. It was used in the translation of the English Bible the same way it was used in the
translation of the English Book of Mormon: to convey to the western english reader more clearly what was going on.
Remember the language of the Nephites and lamanites had undergone changes over several hundred years from the original hebrew and egyptian that their forefathers were educated in. The same way English has undergone dramatic changes since it's early days until now. For a group of followers who believed in Jesus, but used a different name for him, it would make sense to translate that word into the best possible substitute in english. since there is no English word for "Jesus" and no one word to describe "Christ". Jesus is a transliteration of the Hebrew name Joshua which means in English "Jehovah is Salvation"

If we were to do everything literally all the time we would have to write about Jesus baptism this way, " and Jehovah is salvation(Jeus) the anointed one(Christ) went to Jehovah is gracious(John) to be baptized of Jehovah is gracious and straightway came up out of the water.
Don't you see how cumbersome it would be. So please understand the process of translation is a give a little and take a little. It's never going to be perfect grammatically.

"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15
Here Paul sounds a warning against people who try to ascend to the head of leadership in the Church, trying to overthrow the authority of the current established apostles. There were many preachers in Corinth at the time who were preaching their own doctrines and setting themselves up to be popular with the people while setting aside the teachings of Jesus' established priesthood in the apostleship. The real apostles couldn't just jump in their jets and fly over and put down the priestcraft and prevent the imposters from spreading false teachings about Christ's true doctrine. So they had to write lots of letters. Some to the Corinthians, some to the thessalonians, galatians, etc.

Joseph Smith did no such thing. The angel who came to him preached of Christ and that he was the savior of the world. The angel Moroni was on errand from Jesus. Jesus himself appeared to Joseph and gave him instructions. It wasn't just the angel. To understand if Joseph was teaching Christ's original gospel or if he was simply priestcrafting you have to examine the teachings, pray to God and ask for the testimony of the Holy Ghost to confirm it.

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

You and I both can agree on the depravity of the ACLU.

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons.

Yes we are a cult, and so are you too. See definition of cult: A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
But I think you mean we're a bad cult.

BTW, we never called ourselves Mormons. The Missourians did that and the derogatory nickname stuck.

There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

You have demanded and you have received

 

[Ceasaro]

Truthguy, don't you get a little frustrated when no one believes any of the shit you tell them?

Ok, so god revealed himself to a hokey old barely literate cowboy who was banging a bunch of little girls and getting himself beaten up constantly for being a charlatan and a fool. Man, any dumber than that and you die.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Just a couple more questions to ponder while you consult whatever source you must in an attempt to reconcile the faith of Mormonism with the truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures. I don't know you from Adam....no pun intended. But when and if you do attempt to propagate your faith as TRUTH....the very first mission that you will begin to trek is simple....as YOU MUST...if you wish to continue to propagate Mormonism as truth...is to begin with an all out attack on the VALIDITY of the Holy Scriptures....

You are expecting an attack which will never come. Because I believe in all the Holy Scriptures.

to present the current format as containing ERROR and being Corrupted over the years by dogma....and tradition. This is always mandatory...because of the obvious conflict of Doctrine that is found in the Canon of the 27 books of the New Testament with the Book of Mormon. But the strange thing? While attempting to point out the corruption thereof.....you will NOT be able to empirically debunk one passage therein with any true OBJECTIVE empirical evidence offered by physical science of history actual...yet you must continue to declare the scriptures as SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead of the OBJECTIVE truth they are proven to be. Why? Because if you can make YOURSELF accept such a position then.....Mormonism is a far easier pill to swallow, as it is very easily debunked as having any empirical background in relation to science or history.

Calm down Ralph. You're flinching before I've thrown any punches I'm not gonna hit you.

AnywhooThere is no conflict in the doctrines of the two books when an intelligent comparison is done between the two. Why would I try to debunk a book(The Bible) I believe in? Granted there have been some human errors in the translation from Hebrew to Greek, to English, plus the fact that the original scrolls of the bible put together at the council of Nicea around 300 AD, are no longer available. These facts are undisputable. but it's ok because the translations were done by human scholars who meant well for the most part. The Bible just needs little "cleaning up" so to speak. Wouldn't it be nice to have Isaiah appear at a news conference to explain exactly what he meant when he wrote his book. Or John the Revelator, or any of the gospel writers?
Joseph Smith is just such a modern advocate, as are all of his successors in our church, authoritative prophets to give the correct interpretation of the scriptures.

A few examples of contradiction. Mormonism "claims" to be represented by modern prophets, that have received NEW REVELATION from the God of Creation in a mere continuance of knowledge and divine guidance in relation to RIGHTEOUS Christian Doctrine that was first established in the New Testament of Christ.

I don't see the contradiction. Jesus founded his church on apostles and prophets with Jesus being the chief cornerstone. (Ephesias 2:20) Why should it be different today?

The very first question that must be asked in a most logical fashion is this.....Just how is "perfection" and "all" to be added unto in relation to Christian Doctrine?
I'm scratching my head because no where in the Bible does it say that it was perfect or that it contained every word of God. It nowhere states that God would never cause more to be written.

We are told in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus, who commissioned the Holy Spirit of Truth, calling Him from Heaven to help establish doctrine in the infant kingdom of God...aka The Church of Christ, would provide 'ALL TRUTH' to the apostles of the 1st century through the divine inspiration of that same Holy Spirit of Truth. (John 14:26, 16:13)

Well I must say that is one of the grossest misinterpretations of scripture I have ever come across. Jesus was instructing his apostles how to know the truth of things to come. He was telling them the Holy Ghost(Holy Spirit) would answer their questions as they arose. That he would be there to testify of Christ to them individually in their individual moments of need. He was counseling them on how to behave while he was gone. I don't know where you got off thinking that that is a statement that there would be no more scripture. Think I'm making it up? Here's a little before and little after the scripture you posted. Maybe you should actually read the Bible:

John chapter 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 ¶ If ye alove me, keep my ccommandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be beloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


John chapter16
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that thebFather hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
Jesus said the Holy Ghost would show us the truth of all things to come. Not the Bible. The bible is one section of the word of God, confirmed to me by the power of the Holy Ghost. I'm anxiously awaiting any word from God and not clinging to just one piece of it.


Once again...the basic question, "Just how does anyone add unto ALL TRUTH, and make the Perfect Law of Liberty ( James 1:25).....MORE PERFECT?"

The Law of Liberty, cross referenced means the Gospel of Christ, which is the gospel of truth, which sets you free, hence the use of the word liberty. I've clearly established from your misuse of the the phrase ALL TRUTH in the previous statement, that any more testimonies of Jesus Christ outside the Bible are not to be condemned unless they are contradictory.

Especially after the Holy Spirit of Truth inspired the truth as established ONCE FOR ALL TIME....by the saints of the 1st century (Jude 3).

Please don't tire me anymore with out of context scriptures anymore. First I think you meant to say Jude chater 1 verse 3 which reads in verse 3 and 4:


3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't know where you get off throwing in the ONCE FOR ALL TIME statement. You can see that what Jude is talking about is 180 degrees different than what you are talking about. Please read up.

With the Apostle Peter informing us that we have been given EVERYTHING pertaining to LIFE and GODLINESS -- 2 Peter 1:3.
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.
Please read the scriptures for once. It's God's POWER that has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. Not any one book we read.

What is that power? The Holy Ghost which bears record of the truth of Jesus Christ and all his teachings. His teachings can be found in The Bible, The Book of Mormon and many other books.

And the Apostle Paul informing us that the Holy Scriptures....which are ALL inspired by God, have the capacity to make the 'man of God' PERFECT by being "throughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS".....with the Holy Scriptures being profitable to establish Doctrine, and to use for CORRECTION, AND REPROOF ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17).....of course, with these revelations coming in the 1st century.

Yes I agree. All scripture is given of God. Scripture is holy writ which is not confined to one book.



With the next question....."Just where does the authority come from....to have PERFECTION and ALL added unto, and what signs and wonders accompanied that NEW REVELATION....to confirm this revelation as coming from God?"

Joseph Smith was ordained a priest by the laying on of hands on his head by the apostles Peter, James and John for authority to preach and also by John the Baptist for authority to baptize. All appeared as resurrected people and physically performed this act.

The same signs and wonders which followed Jesus. Healings, visions, speaking in tongues and two separate occasions of raising the dead.

Just how many dead were raised by Mr. Smith....how many lame were healed....how many blind from birth were made to see?

answered above.

Just asking....where is this witnessed conformation that accompanies all TRUE PROPHETS of God, as were those in the 1st century? The recording of Miracles were to cause belief in Christ -- John 20:30-31.

Miracles were never to be the cause of belief in Christ. The Holy Spirit was to teach them all things. Not signs and wonders. The devil can do signs and wonders too. That is why the Holy Ghost is far more important than signs and wonders.

By the way did you catch the statement of Jesus to the pharisees,"Only a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign."

Focus on the doctrine and the Holy Ghost. Not signs. Everyone will always see signs. There's no need to look for them.


Miracles showed the masses that the Apostles were messengers from God and were teaching truth (Heb. 2:1-4).....

Miracles were a biproduct of the power of God, but it was the Holy Ghost which you brought up, that shows the truth of all things.

where is the record of the miraculous that was used to establish as truth....the message of Mormonism as being from God? The Apostles Words were confirmed by Signs -- Mk. 16:20.
The Apostles word was strengthened by signs but only the Holy Ghost can confirm the word of Truth.

But there were many miracles and prophecies by Joseph Smith and other members of the church. The same kind as predicted would follow the believers of Christ. You see, Jesus said the signs would follow US, not that WE would follow signs.



The Need for the Miraculous has ceased. The Holy Spirit was sent to teach and remind the Apostles (John 14:26)....

Funny how you used this same scripture to mean something completely different earlier. This time you use it properly, but it can only mean one thing and not two. You need to be careful.
Here in the Book of Mormon it sums up miracles and how they should never cease.

Moroni 7: 27, 29, 35, 37
27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?
• • •
29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.
• • •
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?
• • •
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

Don't be so full of unbelief.

not modern man after the Perfect Law of Liberty had already been established and Confirmed in Doctrine and TRUTH. The Scriptures informed us that the Apostles were not ready to understand everything that Jesus had been instructing them in.....So, Jesus commissioned Him (The Holy Spirit) to continue to teach them (John 16:12-13). And what that Holy Spirit taught them....they were to record for future generations of mankind ( 2 Peter 1:3, 12-15).

I'm repeating myself and have shown how you have convoluted your interpretation of the Bible.

so funny that the apostles were instructed to record for future generations. At that time they hadn't recorded everything they were to eventually write. Many of their writings were voted out of the Bible by the council of Nicea. You would shut the mouths of the apostles if they knocked on your door to give you advice. I certainly think they should still be considered scripture. Another obvious showing that all truth is not contained in one book.

Once written.....miraculous reminders of the past would no longer be needed nor required, as all anyone need do is OPEN THE BOOK to be enlightened and edified in both Truth and Doctrine (Jude 3). It was only the Apostles that were informed they could work miracles in the name of Jesus....not all believers....(Mk. 16:14-20)....take note of the pronoun change in vs. 16.
Dude you seriously don't read the scriptures. Here's what Mark says in verse 16:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out edevils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following(italics added). Amen.

No where did it say only the apostles. It said them that believe and are baptized. Read up.


Also note that ONLY the Apostles could pass on those miraculous gifts....by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-19).

Are you just copying and pasting a bunch of grossly misinterpreted scriptures from an anti mormon website? Why don't you read these scriptures. Simon who was recently baptized tried to buy the priesthood from Peter but was reprimanded severely for thinking that god's gift of authority could be bought with money. The apostles clearly gave this authority to others but Peter was only making a point that the gifts of god could not be bought. Read up.

No one else was recorded as having this divine ability of the Spirit...to pass on those gifts. Paul clearly and quite unambiguously tells us....the need for the Miraculous would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-13).
Mark 16 shows that it was them that believe, not just apostles who would gain this power. The apostles must of necessity given it to other worthy non-apostle believers since Jesus said about them,

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


This could not be the end of the age....as Faith, Hope and Charity would remain. James tells us quite clearly and unambiguously the NEW TESTAMENT....is that which is PERFECT (James 1:25)...as it is the Perfect Law of Liberty.

I already showed your misunderstanding of James 1:25

God is not the author of CONFUSION.....why then does Mr. Smith attempt to confuse us and tell us that man needs MORE truth....More Perfection....More Doctrine.....after God has revealed to us that we have EVERYTHING we need pertaining to Life and Godliness...in the words of truth already revealed by the Holy Spirit of Truth?

Confusion existed long before Joseph Smith arrived. The Church of Rome(not Jesus Christ) had been splintered into thousands of church's before Joseph was on the scene. All arguing different interpretations of the Bible. Certainly God was not the author such confusion either. But the confusion was there and so God stretched forth his hand to call another prophet to help end the confusion.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Truthspeaker]

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D. Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?


"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Bravo on the questions. Unfortunately I don't have time tonight to answer them all. I have answered almost all of them throughout the lengthy dialogue of fantastic questions I have been getting on this thread. You may want to read it from the beginning but if you don't want to take the time you'll have to wait for me to repeat myself tomorrow. Or maybe Avatar will handle it before I get back on.

Adieu!

You don't have the time to rebuke God's Word the Bible. You always have time to answer the questions that don't put you face to face with the bible. Right?

Ralph has presented valid points from the bible. Are you going to deflect? I can't wait to see how you show "Ralph" how the bible is wrong, and how your churches' doctrine is correct.

Oh, I forgot, your the Christian, we are the one's following the corrupted text called the bible.

Oops, gotta go now, Avatar my Mormon tag-team member will answer all question while I leave town for awhile until these darn "biblical Christians" disappear from the thread.

8-Ball you are some kind of piece of work. Sorry if my wife and kids come before a blog.

anywhoo. You know full well, I was gonna get to it. You and Ralph I can tell are gonna be facebook buddies after this.

Now for the sake of not being cumbersome why don't you ask questions one at a time so that I'll have time to get to them quickly.

Please no more novels that require novel responses.
1

@

A

Time!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Excellent post, Ralph. Succinct, to the point, using direct biblical references.

The Word Of God is a Two Edged Sword. It reveals man's intentions to the core of his/her innermost being. It forces transparency of the soul, or deflection, in the form of denial, anger, anxiety, fleeing-away.
********

Some two edged sword huh?

Get a life 8-ball. Read the scriptures for once and weep.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthguy, don't you get a little frustrated when no one believes any of the shit you tell them?

Ok, so god revealed himself to a hokey old barely literate cowboy who was banging a bunch of little girls and getting himself beaten up constantly for being a charlatan and a fool. Man, any dumber than that and you die.

Don't you get a little frustrated because you have no purpose in life that you are attached to? Really, what DO you stand for? Where are your answers to the questions Where did we come from? Why are we here? and where are going when we die?

Are you only committed to insulting those who think they have those answers? Where is your honor?

Where are your sources to back your claims that I don't know what I'm talking about. All you can do is sit back like a hokey old barely literate cowboy who bangs little girls and say that I'm dumb. No substance whatever.

Get a life.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well.....we do have an ETERNITY, you know. Take your time. Attempt to debunk the truth found in the Holy Scriptures that informed us that ALL TRUTH was delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth in the first century. Thus far.....we have numerous retorts of DEFLECTION, but no answers.
Surely you have gotten answers by now. One of the fruits of the Spirit is patience. You gotta know I wasn't gonna leave you hanging.



Mormonism is much in the same boat as is ISLAM...both faiths were established by MAN, centuries after Jesus established His kingdom/church here on earth. Islam 7th centuries after and Mormonism 19 centuries after....history even proves the Catholic Church was not established until the 4th century.

What does that matter when the church was organized? I mean really?


There is only ONE true Church and it was established on the day of Pentecost after the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ, when Peter used the Keys to that Kingdom that Jesus had given him (Matthew 16:19)......Peter opened the door of that kingdom and informed everyone what they must do to become a citizen therein (Acts 2:38). Peter had been given the authority to bind doctrine here on earth with his words of revelation, provided by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "And I (Jesus) will give to thee keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." -- Matthew 16:19

so I'm assuming you are Pentecostal.


This is much like the nonsense that I have heard some espouse. Paul was not a true apostle of Christ and was never accepted by the other apostles....Paul made up his own faith. Strange that we find the very one that had been given the authority to establish New Testament Doctrine here on earth (Peter).....declaring and accepting all Paul's writings as truth and even comparing them with ALL OTHER SCRIPTURE...even old testament scripture all the while calling him a brother in the faith of Christianity, "....and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation -- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, has written to you, as also in his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, WHICH UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE TWIST TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES." -- 2 Peter 3:14


Dude, what you are trying to quote is in verse 16 not 14 and it's wresting the scriptures, which means to twist the scriptures into what YOU want them to say instead of what they actually say. Here's what it ACTUALLY says.

16- As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.(italics added)

As I have shown by what is actually written. I'm not the one doing any wresting.

 

[Ceasaro]

Don't you get a little frustrated because you have no purpose in life that you are attached to? Really, what DO you stand for? Where are your answers to the questions Where did we come from? Why are we here? and where are going when we die?

Be careful, you almost got mad there, lol.

What makes you think I don't consider that I have a purpose? Just because it's not to obey some hokey religious nonsense?
I stand for all good stuff like most regular people.
Where did we come from? The primordial soup that was earth over 4 billion years ago.
Why are we here? It is not possible to know this at this point in time
Where are we going when we die? Probably reborn into another life right here over and over again, but like I say, probably, not for sure, and what ultimately happens will happen, I don't spend my whole life worshipping one conclusion or the other. But to think that we have to follow some scraggly toothed cowboy to achieve anything is pure fantasy. I kinda feel sorry for you that you spend so much time and money on those stories. But like I've said, as long as you don't hurt anyone it's all good I guess.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We are born in order to die--yet we give little thought to that. If we contemplate impermanence it makes life more meaningful. JMO.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Don't you get a little frustrated because you have no purpose in life that you are attached to? Really, what DO you stand for? Where are your answers to the questions Where did we come from? Why are we here? and where are going when we die?

Be careful, you almost got mad there, lol.There's nothing wrong with getting good and mad once in a while. Jesus cracked a whip and nailed plenty of guys abusing the temple.

What makes you think I don't consider that I have a purpose?

What forces me to say it is that you have no reservations about insulting someone who claims to believe in God when they haven't done anything to encroach on your beliefs or preferences.

Just because it's not to obey some hokey religious nonsense?

Again, when did I ever tell you to sit and roll over?

I stand for all good stuff like most regular people.

Ok then show it.

Where did we come from? The primordial soup that was earth over 4 billion years ago. How do you know and if that is true, where did the primordial soup come from? How did it all of sudden or not so all of a sudden go from soup to intelligent human beings that are better than soup?
Why are we here?



It is not possible to know this at this point in time

It is possible but you have to be willing to investigate the claims of those who say they do.


Where are we going when we die? Probably reborn into another life right here over and over again, but like I say, probably, not for sure, and what ultimately happens will happen, I don't spend my whole life worshipping one conclusion or the other. But to think that we have to follow some scraggly toothed cowboy to achieve anything is pure fantasy. I kinda feel sorry for you that you spend so much time and money on those stories. But like I've said, as long as you don't hurt anyone it's all good I guess.


Well for one Joseph wasn't scraggly toothed. He was widely regarded as a handsome man. Chipped tooth, for sure, in the final third of his 38 year life. But not scraggly.

Plus I haven't asked you to follow any man. and If I did, I would start with Jesus.

Yeah I don't try to hurt anyones feelings but I can't help it sometimes. I guess it is all good I guess.

 

[Avatar4321]

Don't you get a little frustrated because you have no purpose in life that you are attached to? Really, what DO you stand for? Where are your answers to the questions Where did we come from? Why are we here? and where are going when we die?

Be careful, you almost got mad there, lol.

What makes you think I don't consider that I have a purpose? Just because it's not to obey some hokey religious nonsense?
I stand for all good stuff like most regular people.
Where did we come from? The primordial soup that was earth over 4 billion years ago.
Why are we here? It is not possible to know this at this point in time
Where are we going when we die? Probably reborn into another life right here over and over again, but like I say, probably, not for sure, and what ultimately happens will happen, I don't spend my whole life worshipping one conclusion or the other. But to think that we have to follow some scraggly toothed cowboy to achieve anything is pure fantasy. I kinda feel sorry for you that you spend so much time and money on those stories. But like I've said, as long as you don't hurt anyone it's all good I guess.

If you stand for all good stuff then why do you lie about a good men? Why do you comment on stuff you claim ignorance about? Why not actually learn?

 

[Ceasaro]

"Jesus (cracked a whip and) nailed plenty of guys"

I can't resist, lol: it's what I've always thought.

How do you know and if that is true, where did the primordial soup come from? How did it all of sudden or not so all of a sudden go from soup to intelligent human beings that are better than soup?

With all the scientific discoveries recently and in the past, it's looking like soup is where we came from. So let me ask you: if scientist find primordial soup life on another planet, at what point do you concede the point. I mean, you can't intellectually deny evolution, even humans have evolved since Jo's time, we're taller, live longer, smarter...

It is not possible to know this at this point in time
It is possible but you have to be willing to investigate the claims of those who say they do.


Like the scraggly chip toothed and tar feathered cowboy who was banging little girls? C'mon man, gimme a break.

 

[Avatar4321]

First, please forgive me for chopping up the post quite a bit. its difficult to follow otherwise. Unfortunately, I cant guarentee my posts will help make it easier. But I can hope.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

And the first thing that pops into my mind is the promise of John in Revelation 14:6-7 that the Lord will send an angel proclaiming the everlasting Gospel in the last days and preparing the world for the judgments that come. May I presume that if you dont believe Moroni did fulfill this prophecy that you are currently looking foward to the Lord's fulfillment of this prophecy? You are awaiting angelic messengers carrying the Gospel? If so I would ask how do you propose to recognize them?

It seems to me the only way to recognize the Lord's messengers is through the Holy Spirit. Yet, you and your friends do nothing but claim that we have to rely on our own interpretations of the scriptures rather than the revelations of God. It makes absolutely no sense to rely on what God has said in the past and ignore what God says now. That was what the Pharisees did and Christ did not bless them for it.

Finally, it seems that you are unfamiliar with the Gospel that was revealed in the Book of Mormon. Which is that Jesus Christ the Son of God suffered and Atoned for the sins of the world, dying on the cross, and rose on the third day. If you believe in some Gospel other than this, than I would suggest that you might want to rethink whether or not you are believing the correct Gospel. I dont know your heart so you have to answer these questions yourself. But God knows us all and will judge according to the Truth and Justice which is in Him.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

Which, of course, is why we encourage and ask all men to read the Book of Mormon for themselves and to pray to the Father in the name of Christ whether the Book is true in humility and with sincerity of heart. We ask all people to do this prior to being baptized. That way the Spirit can reveal to them the truth.

And I can tell you from personal experience that the Spirit will answer that prayer. And that God is no respecter of persons. He will answer your sincere and humble prayers just as much as He would answer mine or anyone elses who prays to know the truth.

How do you propose to test the things of the Spirit if not by the Holy Spirit?

One question....since God by definition is all-knowing and all-powerful, should we or anyone not expect a direct revelation from God to be ERROR free when it was directly translated to a true prophet of GOD? I mean...Humans are known to Err...God is not. When one looks through an ORIGINAL translation of that BOOK we find it laced with ERROR...both factual and grammatically.

Interesting question. Can anything touched by human hands be error free? Are your expectations reasonable? Should we disbelieve the Bible when there are factual and grammatical errors?

We find such.....grammatical error as, ".....which WAS our first parents." "....WHICH WAS WROTE...", "...exceeding fraid.", "....THEM DAYS", "...have took", "... waving the rent......the writing which he had wrote upon the rent...". One would think that an angel from heaven would be the ultimate SPELL CHECK..no? Regardless of the education of the one simply RECORDING the supposed information from GOD....as such would require only the ability to COPY WRITE....no?

Considering the angel wasnt the one providing a translation, im not sure that the question on whether an angel has a spell check is really relevant.

Not to mention PHYSICAL errors of factual history found in the BOOK. Some are simple Oddities....but others are quite serious as they actually CONTRADICT the writings from the HOLY SCRIPTURES....which is claimed to be the COMPANION to the Book of Mormon.

And yet the supposed factual errors are rather lacking arent they? for example you cited:

One example is the use of a COMPASS. The "Nephites" are said to have used a compass about 550 B.C. ( 1 Nephi. 18:12), when the compass was not invented untill 1100 A. D.

Which of course is blatantly untrue. The Nephites didnt even exist in 550BC, nor did they use a compass. If you read the Book of Mormon, even so much as the first book of it, you would be very much aware of this.

Another oddity is the use of the FRENCH word "Adieu" used in (Jacob 7:27)....strange...that a FRENCH word was used in the correct English translation of a reformed "Egyptian" word written upon metal plates by a HEBREW living on American soil in 421 B.C.

The fact that you are actually using the adieu argument makes it very difficult to take you serious. Especially considering Adieu is also an english word and anyone familiar with translating would realize it would make perfect sense to use an english word familiar to english speakers in translating a text. No one in their right mind would presume that the original text had a French word it.

For example, the Bible is translated from Hebrew and Greek. It often uses the word God. There is no disputing that God is not a Hebrew or Greek word. Are you honestly suggesting that using an English word in an English translation from another language means that the original must have used the English word as well? its insane.

I dont think this is what you are actually proposing though. Because I dont think you've honestly thought about this. I dont think youve done any actual study in the claims of the Book of Mormon. I think you just took someone elses shoddy scholasticism as fact because its convenient to your world view.

Another contradiction.....Alma predicated in 83 B.C that Jesus would be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10). However in keeping with Micah's prophecy, Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Luke 2:4).

Again, your incorrect. Alma predicted that Christ would be born in the land of Jerursalem. I say Im from Philadelphia very often. I dont actually live in Philadelphia I live nearby. Considering there is historic precedent, including in the Bible, of refering Bethlehem as being in the land of Jerusalem, I would conclude that you haven't bothered to research the issue.

So unless you are prepared to conclude that 2 Kings 14:20 makes the Bible wrong, I dont see how you can honestly support this claim.

Another.......Nephi called the savior "Jesus Christ, the Son of God"....almost 600 years before His birth ( 2 Nephi 25:19). Strange...since Mary was told by an angel: YOU...Mary, shall call his name Jesus...and He shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31,35). Christ is not a NAME....it is a Greek word that means "anointed"...which merely corresponds to the Hebrew word Messiah. Mr. Smith would have us believe that the correct English translation of the Reformed Egyptian word is the Anglicized Greek word for CHRIST? Really?

Again, you seem to be under some impression that a text that is translated into English is somehow wrong for using English words. Your logic makes no sense. Any translated text is going to use the words familiar to people in the language being translated to.

You also seem to indicate that you are unfamiliar with the fact that Jesus Christ is exactly what the Savior has been called for millinium. That just doesnt make sense. Sure. its not the name He was given by His mother. But it is the name He has been known by throughout the world. Many people are called by their titles. In fact, many famous titles become part of their name. Erik the Red for instance wasnt named that by his Mother. But that's what He was called. I doubt Queen Elizabeth of England was named Queen Elizabeth. but that is what the world knows her as.

Your remarkable "proofs" that the Book of Mormon is false dont seem to stand up to serious scrutiny. They never really have. When I was first studying to know whether the Book of Mormon was true or not, it was exactly arguments like these that made me lean towards believing it. I mean if after nearly 180 years this is the best you guys can come up with against it, there has to be something to the Book.

In another portion of the BOOK we find....even before the resurrection of Jesus, some Nephites were praised for being, "firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end" (Alma 27:27).....They even called themselves Christians (Alma 46:13-16). Strange that this faith would label itself the Church of Christ.....200 years before the Christ even built His church, He being the chief CornerStone...no....as this directly contradicts the Holy Scriptures which clearly inform us, "the disciples were divinely called 'Christians' first at Antioch." -- Acts 11:26

Why does it surprise you that those who would be Christ's would be called after His name prior to His resurrection? Christ was prepared from before the foundations of the world. All the prophets from Adam to the Meridian of time prophecied of the coming of Christ. You think they didnt have faith in the Savior of the world? Do you think they didnt look forward to His coming with faith?

I would clearly excuse Luke's ignorance of those followers of Christ on the other side of the world. Seriously, if this is your serious factual problems, you dont really have much.

Perhaps we are misinformed....care to enlighten us with the TRUTH?

Id love to, unfortunately, I dont have the ability to enlighten anyone. But the Holy Spirit does. And He will teach you the truth of all things if you let him. And if you want to prove the Book of Mormon, read it for yourself. You can get one for free. It wont cost you a cent to read the Book and pray to know whether it's true. Or do you doubt the Spirit can enlighten?

"For such are false prophets, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is of no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:13-15

True verse, but you are assuming we are the false ones and that you are the true one. Did you ever consider that the adversasry has decieved you? Or are you somehow superior to all others?

Im supposed to believe that by believing the Witness of the Holy Ghost, I am decieved by the advesary based solely on the fact that you say so and that you interpret scriptures differently? I hope you dont find it wrong of me to believe God and what He tells me over what you say. Nor do I hope you think its wrong of me to reject poorly crafted and uninformed arguments that have been responded to millions of times.

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Doesnt seem to be at all relevant to the conversation. So Im going to have to say: Como what?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Convenient. Doesnt have to be demonstrated because you say so. Joseph's only "crime" was stating He saw Jesus Christ and being naive enough to expect those who profess belief in Christ to actually believe Him.

If you demand truth, you really need to raise your standards alittle. If you demand truth, read the Book of Mormon for yourself. If you demand truth, pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you. Because God will reveal His work with power to those who ask and seek it from Him. But if youd rather put your Eternal destiny in your own understanding, you can do that. If you think it wise to reject the Book of Mormon for whatever reason, so be it, but as for me and my house, we will follow the Holy Spirit.

 

[Avatar4321]

Just a couple more questions to ponder while you consult whatever source you must in an attempt to reconcile the faith of Mormonism with the truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures. I don't know you from Adam....no pun intended. But when and if you do attempt to propagate your faith as TRUTH....the very first mission that you will begin to trek is simple....as YOU MUST...if you wish to continue to propagate Mormonism as truth...is to begin with an all out attack on the VALIDITY of the Holy Scriptures....to present the current format as containing ERROR and being Corrupted over the years by dogma....and tradition. This is always mandatory...because of the obvious conflict of Doctrine that is found in the Canon of the 27 books of the New Testament with the Book of Mormon. But the strange thing? While attempting to point out the corruption thereof.....you will NOT be able to empirically debunk one passage therein with any true OBJECTIVE empirical evidence offered by physical science of history actual...yet you must continue to declare the scriptures as SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead of the OBJECTIVE truth they are proven to be. Why? Because if you can make YOURSELF accept such a position then.....Mormonism is a far easier pill to swallow, as it is very easily debunked as having any empirical background in relation to science or history.

Which, of course, is why we boldly declare that the Bible is true. That the Testimonies of the Apostles are true. That Jesus Christ, the Son of God, atoned and died for the sins of the world and rose the third day. That is why we boldly teach the doctrines found in the scriptures such as the pre mortal life, the doctrine of diefication. That's why we teach as the Apostles taught of revelation. That's why we preach and share the keys of the Kingdom as taught in the Bible. That is why we teach the Nature of the fall and Atonement. This is why we study the Bible in depth. Because according to you we have to debunk it to have valid faith.

But what you fail to realize is our faith does not contradict the Bible. Quite the opposite. our faith may contradict your private interpretations of scripture. But that is not our fault.

A few examples of contradiction. Mormonism "claims" to be represented by modern prophets, that have received NEW REVELATION from the God of Creation in a mere continuance of knowledge and divine guidance in relation to RIGHTEOUS Christian Doctrine that was first established in the New Testament of Christ.

We have received new revelation. And we hope to recieve more revelation because the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a God of revelation and Has revealed His secrets to the Prophets in every age of man. Why should we presume God has changed when He made no statements to that effect?

The very first question that must be asked in a most logical fashion is this.....Just how is "perfection" and "all" to be added unto in relation to Christian Doctrine? We are told in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus, who commissioned the Holy Spirit of Truth, calling Him from Heaven to help establish doctrine in the infant kingdom of God...aka The Church of Christ, would provide 'ALL TRUTH' to the apostles of the 1st century through the divine inspiration of that same Holy Spirit of Truth. (John 14:26, 16:13) Once again...the basic question, "Just how does anyone add unto ALL TRUTH, and make the Perfect Law of Liberty ( James 1:25).....MORE PERFECT?" Especially after the Holy Spirit of Truth inspired the truth as established ONCE FOR ALL TIME....by the saints of the 1st century (Jude 3).

So because the Holy Spirit reveals all truth, we are to presume that all truth is found in the scriptures? We are to presume because you misquote Jude 1:3 that God will never speak again from the Heavens despite explicit promises in the Book of Revelation and other areas of scripture that He will once again make will known in the last days?

Do you honestly think everything God has ever done or said is contained in the Bible when the Bible itself says that there is no book big enough to contain all the words and works of Christ? And when the Apostles clearly say there are things they cant speak of? Paul saw visions he couldnt share. The Apostles were taught 40 days after the resurrection of Christ and we know nothing of the great truths He shared with them then. Paul spoke of teaching the People the milk of the Gospel in His Epistles. Why are you satisfied with only milk when the Lord will give us meat if we ask for it?

With the Apostle Peter informing us that we have been given EVERYTHING pertaining to LIFE and GODLINESS -- 2 Peter 1:3. And the Apostle Paul informing us that the Holy Scriptures....which are ALL inspired by God, have the capacity to make the 'man of God' PERFECT by being "throughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS".....with the Holy Scriptures being profitable to establish Doctrine, and to use for CORRECTION, AND REPROOF ( 2 Tim. 3:16-17).....of course, with these revelations coming in the 1st century.

The Apostle Peter was speaking to a crowd who has been given everything. In fact, you could have everything if you didnt put limitations on God. But you think everything means whats just in the Bible and nothing else. That just makes no sense when the scripture teach of God revealing all things to us through His Holy Spirit. So we should deny the Holy Spirit when He tries to teach us more than what we know? it makes no sense.

If you have faith in Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and recieve the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. And the Holy Ghost will teach you all the things that you should do.

And all scripture is inspired of God and profitable to establish doctrine and use for correction and reproof. Which is exactly why I think its absurd to limit the scriptures to those in the Bible when the Bible itself gives no such limitation and the Spirit says otherwise. Anything spoken or written under the influence of the Holy Spirit is Holy scripture if those who recieve it receive it with that same Spirit.

With the next question....."Just where does the authority come from....to have PERFECTION and ALL added unto, and what signs and wonders accompanied that NEW REVELATION....to confirm this revelation as coming from God?" Just how many dead were raised by Mr. Smith....how many lame were healed....how many blind from birth were made to see? Just asking....where is this witnessed conformation that accompanies all TRUE PROPHETS of God, as were those in the 1st century? The recording of Miracles were to cause belief in Christ -- John 20:30-31. Miracles showed the masses that the Apostles were messengers from God and were teaching truth (Heb. 2:1-4).....where is the record of the miraculous that was used to establish as truth....the message of Mormonism as being from God? The Apostles Words were confirmed by Signs -- Mk. 16:20.

I dont know that anyone's ever quantified the miracles Joseph did. I know he raised one man from the dead. He healed countless with members of the 12 in Nauvoo. He healed Mrs. Johnson in Kirtland, which lead to the conversion of hundreds in that area. He cast the devil out of Newel K Whitney. What more do you want? Seriously?

Many of the Twelve have done so since. Ive seen miracles. Ive been healed by the Power of God. Ive seen hearts do 180 degrees in a manner of seconds because the Holy Spirit touched the live of someone.

The Need for the Miraculous has ceased. The Holy Spirit was sent to teach and remind the Apostles (John 14:26)....not modern man after the Perfect Law of Liberty had already been established and Confirmed in Doctrine and TRUTH. The Scriptures informed us that the Apostles were not ready to understand everything that Jesus had been instructing them in.....So, Jesus commissioned Him (The Holy Spirit) to continue to teach them (John 16:12-13). And what that Holy Spirit taught them....they were to record for future generations of mankind ( 2 Peter 1:3, 12-15).

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a God of miracles. Miracles will never cease so long as there is one person on earth with the faith necessary to perform them. You seem to think God has finished revealing His will and performing miracles. Yet, you also proclaim that you believe the Bible. Which speaks of the miracles God will perform in the last days. He will gather the Children of Israel together into one body. He will set up an Ensign to the nations. He will establish His House in the Top of the Mountains. He will send two prophets to preach in Jerusalem and save it from invading armies.

Yet we are to beleive that miracles have ceased? We are supposed to disbelieve the whisperings of the Spirit in our lives in order to diefy the instructions given to our forefathers when all they have ever asked us to do is believe the Lord and listen to His voice? Should I disbelieve my eyes because you have declared an end to miracles? Should I pretend I wasnt healed by the power of God because you say its not possible?

Once written.....miraculous reminders of the past would no longer be needed nor required, as all anyone need do is OPEN THE BOOK to be enlightened and edified in both Truth and Doctrine (Jude 3). It was only the Apostles that were informed they could work miracles in the name of Jesus....not all believers....(Mk. 16:14-20)....take note of the pronoun change in vs. 16.

Any who was authorized to act in Christ's name can perform miracles. The Seventy Christ called were told to perform miracles in His name. James commanded the Elders of the Church to heal the sick when called to do so.

Also note that ONLY the Apostles could pass on those miraculous gifts....by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-19). No one else was recorded as having this divine ability of the Spirit...to pass on those gifts. Paul clearly and quite unambiguously tells us....the need for the Miraculous would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-13). This could not be the end of the age....as Faith, Hope and Charity would remain. James tells us quite clearly and unambiguously the NEW TESTAMENT....is that which is PERFECT (James 1:25)...as it is the Perfect Law of Liberty.

Then who was Stephen? He wasnt an Apostle but was given authority. If none but the Apostles have the power to give the Holy Ghost, then but your own admission you dont have the Gift of the Holy Ghost because there has been no Apostle give it to you by the laying on of hands. Why did they give the Gift of the Holy Ghost if there was no need to?

God is not the author of CONFUSION.....why then does Mr. Smith attempt to confuse us and tell us that man needs MORE truth....More Perfection....More Doctrine.....after God has revealed to us that we have EVERYTHING we need pertaining to Life and Godliness...in the words of truth already revealed by the Holy Spirit of Truth?

You're right God is not the author of confusion. You think God ordained thousands of different denominations each teaching different doctrine straight from the Bible? You think learning more about God confuses people? And how can you have the words of truth revealed by the Holy Spirit of truth if you dont have the Holy Spirit teaching you? By your own admission you havent recieved the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands from the Apostles. So how can you know what He teaches if you havent recieved Him?

Revelation from God doesnt confuse the mind. It enlightens and expands the mind. You can learn to recognize the whispers of the Spirit by recognizing when pure intelligence flows into your mind.

But if you want the Holy Ghost you have to recieve it as all others have by the laying on of hands by someone authorized to give it.

Everything in the Kingdom of God has an order the is to be followed.

 

[Ralph]

Excellent post, Ralph. Succinct, to the point, using direct biblical references.

The Word Of God is a Two Edged Sword. It reveals man's intentions to the core of his/her innermost being. It forces transparency of the soul, or deflection, in the form of denial, anger, anxiety, fleeing-away.
********

Some two edged sword huh?

Get a life 8-ball. Read the scriptures for once and weep.

Show "US"....as in YOU and I, sitting here in the 21st century, that YOU and I can do greater works? Strange, since the context clearly establishes the fact that Jesus was TEACHING only HIS disciples. Take note.....We begin in Chapter 13.....the passover meal, taken in context Jesus is sitting to sup with only his disciples"......and supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him." John 13:2 In context further along we find Jesus directly addressing only Peter, while Peter is asking Him about the washing of the feet, with the Christ telling him that NOT all you....the disciples... are clean (of Spirit was the reference...Vs. 11)....Moving further along we still find Jesus addressing and teaching only his close disciples. Jesus comes straight out and informs them....."....one of YOU shall betray Me." (Vs.21). Still in context we find....THE DISCIPLES LOOKED at one another (Vs. 22).

Thus, so far we find the Christ directly speaking and teaching ONLY His close disciples. Then we find Judas....going out into the night to betray Him (Vs. 30). Next we find Jesus informing them that He will be leaving them shortly....(knowing His death was rapidly approaching) -- Vs. 36 Also informing THEM they could not follow. Next Peter said...not so, I would give my live for yours...then comes the famous line about the Peter denying the Christ 3 times before the Cock Crows (Vss. 37-38). We proceed into Chapter 14.....taken in context.....Jesus is still addressing only His close disciples.

Still IN CONTEXT....the Christ is addressing non-other than His close disciples, "Verily, verily I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also: and greater works than these shall he do; BECAUSE I GO TO MY FATHER. -- John 14:12


Are you attempting to claim that Jesus promised YOU and I to be granted POWER from Heaven as He did the original Apostles? Jesus directly PROMISED these men that after His death He would send the comforter, "....even the Spirit of Truth; WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE......" -- John 14:17 I do not know about you....but I would declare that both YOU and I are apart of the WORLD...no? And as hard as I try to recollect.....I cannot remember the arisen Christ making this promise to me, "When they (the apostles) were come together, they asked of Him (Jesus), saying, Lord wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom of Israel? And He (Jesus) said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power. BUT YE SHALL RECEIVE POWER........after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you......and ye shall be witness unto ME both in Jerusalem , and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." -- Acts 1:6-8 And The promise was fulfilled......Acts 2:1-4


Are you declaring that YOU were PERSONALLY privy to that meeting between the Arisen Christ and His apostles....when He directly informed them THEY WOULD RECEIVE POWER? I would venture to declare that YOU are much in the same boat as was Simon the Sorcerer....When He witnessed that through the LAYING ON OF THE HANDS of an APOSTLE whom JESUS had commissioned with SUCH power through the Holy Spirit of God...they could make the Holy Ghost fall upon those whom they simply laid hands on, passing on the gift of the Spirit..who had not fallen on any of them as yet. Simon, being jealous and envious of that power...he wanted it for PERSONAL GAIN, and this is what the Apostle informed him...much as HE would now inform you, "But Peter said unto him....Thy money perish with thee......BECAUSE THOU HAST THOUGHT THE GIFT OF GOD MAY BE PURCHASED WITH MONEY........Thous, hast neither LOT NOR PART IN THIS MATTER....." -- Acts 8:9-22.

Indeed....if you are propagating the same LIE that Simon the Sorcerer DID...you are DEFLECTING from the truth that is actually recorded. No? One should Study, and rightly divide the word of truth ( 2 Tim. 2:15). Clearly...it is the SUM/Total of God's word that establishes TRUTH and everlasting laws, not cherry picked HALF/TRUTHS which can be used as whole lies. -- Ps 119:160


When YOU BEGIN with an easily proven FALSE PRECEPT.......you end with an exposed lie.

 

[Ralph]

Just a couple more questions to ponder while you consult whatever source you must in an attempt to reconcile the faith of Mormonism with the truth revealed in the Holy Scriptures. I don't know you from Adam....no pun intended. But when and if you do attempt to propagate your faith as TRUTH....the very first mission that you will begin to trek is simple....as YOU MUST...if you wish to continue to propagate Mormonism as truth...is to begin with an all out attack on the VALIDITY of the Holy Scriptures....to present the current format as containing ERROR and being Corrupted over the years by dogma....and tradition. This is always mandatory...because of the obvious conflict of Doctrine that is found in the Canon of the 27 books of the New Testament with the Book of Mormon. But the strange thing? While attempting to point out the corruption thereof.....you will NOT be able to empirically debunk one passage therein with any true OBJECTIVE empirical evidence offered by physical science of history actual...yet you must continue to declare the scriptures as SUBJECTIVE TRUTH instead of the OBJECTIVE truth they are proven to be. Why? Because if you can make YOURSELF accept such a position then.....Mormonism is a far easier pill to swallow, as it is very easily debunked as having any empirical background in relation to science or history.

Which, of course, is why we boldly declare that the Bible is true. That the Testimonies of the Apostles are true. That Jesus Christ, the Son of God, atoned and died for the sins of the world and rose the third day. That is why we boldly teach the doctrines found in the scriptures such as the pre mortal life, the doctrine of diefication. That's why we teach as the Apostles taught of revelation. That's why we preach and share the keys of the Kingdom as taught in the Bible. That is why we teach the Nature of the fall and Atonement. This is why we study the Bible in depth. Because according to you we have to debunk it to have valid faith.

But what you fail to realize is our faith does not contradict the Bible. Quite the opposite. our faith may contradict your private interpretations of scripture. But that is not our fault.

A few examples of contradiction. Mormonism "claims" to be represented by modern prophets, that have received NEW REVELATION from the God of Creation in a mere continuance of knowledge and divine guidance in relation to RIGHTEOUS Christian Doctrine that was first established in the New Testament of Christ.

We have received new revelation. And we hope to recieve more revelation because the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a God of revelation and Has revealed His secrets to the Prophets in every age of man. Why should we presume God has changed when He made no statements to that effect?





So because the Holy Spirit reveals all truth, we are to presume that all truth is found in the scriptures? We are to presume because you misquote Jude 1:3 that God will never speak again from the Heavens despite explicit promises in the Book of Revelation and other areas of scripture that He will once again make will known in the last days?

Do you honestly think everything God has ever done or said is contained in the Bible when the Bible itself says that there is no book big enough to contain all the words and works of Christ? And when the Apostles clearly say there are things they cant speak of? Paul saw visions he couldnt share. The Apostles were taught 40 days after the resurrection of Christ and we know nothing of the great truths He shared with them then. Paul spoke of teaching the People the milk of the Gospel in His Epistles. Why are you satisfied with only milk when the Lord will give us meat if we ask for it?



The Apostle Peter was speaking to a crowd who has been given everything. In fact, you could have everything if you didnt put limitations on God. But you think everything means whats just in the Bible and nothing else. That just makes no sense when the scripture teach of God revealing all things to us through His Holy Spirit. So we should deny the Holy Spirit when He tries to teach us more than what we know? it makes no sense.

If you have faith in Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and recieve the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. And the Holy Ghost will teach you all the things that you should do.

And all scripture is inspired of God and profitable to establish doctrine and use for correction and reproof. Which is exactly why I think its absurd to limit the scriptures to those in the Bible when the Bible itself gives no such limitation and the Spirit says otherwise. Anything spoken or written under the influence of the Holy Spirit is Holy scripture if those who recieve it receive it with that same Spirit.




I dont know that anyone's ever quantified the miracles Joseph did. I know he raised one man from the dead. He healed countless with members of the 12 in Nauvoo. He healed Mrs. Johnson in Kirtland, which lead to the conversion of hundreds in that area. He cast the devil out of Newel K Whitney. What more do you want? Seriously?

Many of the Twelve have done so since. Ive seen miracles. Ive been healed by the Power of God. Ive seen hearts do 180 degrees in a manner of seconds because the Holy Spirit touched the live of someone.



The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a God of miracles. Miracles will never cease so long as there is one person on earth with the faith necessary to perform them. You seem to think God has finished revealing His will and performing miracles. Yet, you also proclaim that you believe the Bible. Which speaks of the miracles God will perform in the last days. He will gather the Children of Israel together into one body. He will set up an Ensign to the nations. He will establish His House in the Top of the Mountains. He will send two prophets to preach in Jerusalem and save it from invading armies.

Yet we are to beleive that miracles have ceased? We are supposed to disbelieve the whisperings of the Spirit in our lives in order to diefy the instructions given to our forefathers when all they have ever asked us to do is believe the Lord and listen to His voice? Should I disbelieve my eyes because you have declared an end to miracles? Should I pretend I wasnt healed by the power of God because you say its not possible?



Any who was authorized to act in Christ's name can perform miracles. The Seventy Christ called were told to perform miracles in His name. James commanded the Elders of the Church to heal the sick when called to do so.

Also note that ONLY the Apostles could pass on those miraculous gifts....by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-19). No one else was recorded as having this divine ability of the Spirit...to pass on those gifts. Paul clearly and quite unambiguously tells us....the need for the Miraculous would cease (1 Cor. 13:8-13). This could not be the end of the age....as Faith, Hope and Charity would remain. James tells us quite clearly and unambiguously the NEW TESTAMENT....is that which is PERFECT (James 1:25)...as it is the Perfect Law of Liberty.

Then who was Stephen? He wasnt an Apostle but was given authority. If none but the Apostles have the power to give the Holy Ghost, then but your own admission you dont have the Gift of the Holy Ghost because there has been no Apostle give it to you by the laying on of hands. Why did they give the Gift of the Holy Ghost if there was no need to?

God is not the author of CONFUSION.....why then does Mr. Smith attempt to confuse us and tell us that man needs MORE truth....More Perfection....More Doctrine.....after God has revealed to us that we have EVERYTHING we need pertaining to Life and Godliness...in the words of truth already revealed by the Holy Spirit of Truth?

You're right God is not the author of confusion. You think God ordained thousands of different denominations each teaching different doctrine straight from the Bible? You think learning more about God confuses people? And how can you have the words of truth revealed by the Holy Spirit of truth if you dont have the Holy Spirit teaching you? By your own admission you havent recieved the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands from the Apostles. So how can you know what He teaches if you havent recieved Him?

Revelation from God doesnt confuse the mind. It enlightens and expands the mind. You can learn to recognize the whispers of the Spirit by recognizing when pure intelligence flows into your mind.

But if you want the Holy Ghost you have to recieve it as all others have by the laying on of hands by someone authorized to give it.

Everything in the Kingdom of God has an order the is to be followed.

Does it really matter WHAT I THINK? My words do not establish Christian Doctrine or Truth, but God's words do, and they are found only in one place, the Holy Scriptures. (John 17:17, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).......You have presented many passages taken out of content, not directly proving or disproving anything. Demonstrate in the word of God, just where THERE IS MORE TRUTH to come once ALL TRUTH has been established.....while proving Mormonism and its false message does not rescind the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" (If something is Perfect....why add more?) to that which was established by the saints of the 1st century? -- Jude 3. Thus, Making the word of God a lie....and invalidating His promise not to have his word corrupted once established. God did promise to have His word of truth last an eternity WITHOUT BEING CORRUPTED ( 1 Peter 1:23,25, Matthew 24:35, Ps. 12:6-7), yet here you are attempting to inform us that God is not capable of keeping his promise.

This is much like the false circular reasoning and lies of attempting to inform everyone that man can and will become God. Even though this nonsense is throughly debunked by the simple truth found in the Holy Scriptures. Even if you attempt to make one passage of Gods word into a lie....you are not working with the Holy Spirit of Truth, "Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me and understand that I am He; BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME." Contrary to what Joseph Smith recorded in the Book of Mormon...."God is not a man..." -- Numbers 23:19, nor was He ever a man, as God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

If Mormonism were a House....it is such constructed in lacking any Biblical Truth...that one could throw a cat through it. The most obvious of which is the lack of the signs of a true messenger of God and its conformation. Signs and Wonders. No where in history is there any record of the Book of Mormon being validated as was the New Testament of Grace...with accompanying signs and wonders. No where is there a PROVEN example of anyone being raised from the dead, or divinely healed....and stranger still is the supposed fact of MODERN day apostles....just why should anyone have to go to school to learn a NEW LANGUAGE to spread the gospel...it appears that all it would take would be a simple laying on of the hands of a MODERN APOSTLE and...bingo, people could speak in tongues they were never taught before. Just like the true messengers of God in the 1st century (Acts 2:4-6)

 

[Avatar4321]

Does it really matter WHAT I THINK? My words do not establish Christian Doctrine or Truth, but God's words do, and they are found only in one place, the Holy Scriptures. (John 17:17, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).......You have presented many passages taken out of content, not directly proving or disproving anything. Demonstrate in the word of God, just where THERE IS MORE TRUTH to come once ALL TRUTH has been established.....while proving Mormonism and its false message does not rescind the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" (If something is Perfect....why add more?) to that which was established by the saints of the 1st century? -- Jude 3. Thus, Making the word of God a lie....and invalidating His promise not to have his word corrupted once established. God did promise to have His word of truth last an eternity WITHOUT BEING CORRUPTED ( 1 Peter 1:23,25, Matthew 24:35, Ps. 12:6-7), yet here you are attempting to inform us that God is not capable of keeping his promise.

You have yet to prove the faulty assumption that all truth is found in the Bible when the Bible clearly states that there are many things not revealed to the saints in general. Simply repeating the same verses after its been demonstrated that you are incorrectly citing them not convincing argument.

God has been clear that He will do a mighty work in the last days. He has prophecied through His servants many of the miracles He will perform. He has promised to send an angel carrying the everlasting Gospel to the world. Either he has, or he will. Your argumenet that He wont and He has said everything He will ever say just doesnt fly with any serious consideration of the prophecies. How can the two prophets protect Jerusalem before Christ's appearance doing mighty miracles if miracles have ceased? How can men prophecy if God will tell us no more? Your position makes absolutely no sense.

This is much like the false circular reasoning and lies of attempting to inform everyone that man can and will become God. Even though this nonsense is throughly debunked by the simple truth found in the Holy Scriptures. Even if you attempt to make one passage of Gods word into a lie....you are not working with the Holy Spirit of Truth, "Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me and understand that I am He; BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME." Contrary to what Joseph Smith recorded in the Book of Mormon...."God is not a man..." -- Numbers 23:19, nor was He ever a man, as God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

Is it not written ye are gods? If he called those who recieved the word of God, gods and the scriptures cannot be broken, how can you say that those who have recieved the Gospel and be sanctified that the spirit cannot be gods?

If Christ Himself stated that those who recieve the word are gods, who are you to say otherwise? You think you understand the scriptures better than the Savior of the World? Do you think Paul was lying when He promised that we would become joint heirs with Christ and recieve all the Father has? Do you think John lied when He promised us dominions? Do you think Peter lied when He stated that we are made partakers of the Divine nature through Christ?

The New Testament is a glorious testimony that indeed God became a man that men can become gods. For when we see Him, we will know Him, because we will be like Him.

If Mormonism were a House....it is such constructed in lacking any Biblical Truth...that one could throw a cat through it.

That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

The most obvious of which is the lack of the signs of a true messenger of God and its conformation. Signs and Wonders. No where in history is there any record of the Book of Mormon being validated as was the New Testament of Grace...with accompanying signs and wonders.

The written witness of Angelic ministry isnt enough for you? The casting out of devils isnt sign enough for you? The fulfillment of prophecy isnt sign enough for you? The raising of the dead isnt enough for you?

No where is there a PROVEN example of anyone being raised from the dead, or divinely healed....

Of course not, I mean i just pulled those examples and my own personal experiences out of thin air. The sick in Nauvoo were never healed despite the countless eyewitnesses journal entries. Im sure Elijah Fordham. or Joseph Noble were revived by accident right at the time Joseph commanded them in the name of Christ to be healed.

Im sure the blind woman Parley P Pratt restored sight to just happened to regain her sight when He commanded it return by the power of Christ?

Or perhaps the miracles that Elder Matthew Cowley did were just coincidences? Or that Alma Smith regrowing a hip was just chance?

and stranger still is the supposed fact of MODERN day apostles....just why should anyone have to go to school to learn a NEW LANGUAGE to spread the gospel...it appears that all it would take would be a simple laying on of the hands of a MODERN APOSTLE and...bingo, people could speak in tongues they were never taught before. Just like the true messengers of God in the 1st century (Acts 2:4-6)

That just shows your ignorance of the gift of tongues and of what happened at Pentecost. It also demonstrates ignorance of what happens nowadays. You have a form of godliness but deny the power of such. I can tell you that you will find countless miracles in the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, the greatest miracle is found in the witness of the Holy Ghost who will let all who ask God know the truth of it. The only sure way to stay close to the Lord is to seek Him in prayer and accept the promptings of the Spirit.

But if you want to continue to pretend as though there are no signs given, you shall see no signs. You should not tempt God to satisfy your lusts. It's unwise. Because the signs you recieve when you do that are the ones you wish you never would see.

 

[Ralph]

First, please forgive me for chopping up the post quite a bit. its difficult to follow otherwise. Unfortunately, I cant guarentee my posts will help make it easier. But I can hope.

Sure....Where to start? Lets begin with the BOOK OF MORMON. Mormons claim that it is a book directly revealed by God to Joseph Smith. Smith was propagated as being a prophet of God and was said to directly translate the Book of Mormon from "golden plates" delivered to him by an angel from heaven. The very first thing that pops into my Spirit are words delivered by the Holy Spirit of Truth to the Apostle Paul, "But even through, we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be ANATHEMA." -- Gal. 1:8.

And the first thing that pops into my mind is the promise of John in Revelation 14:6-7 that the Lord will send an angel proclaiming the everlasting Gospel in the last days and preparing the world for the judgments that come. May I presume that if you dont believe Moroni did fulfill this prophecy that you are currently looking foward to the Lord's fulfillment of this prophecy? You are awaiting angelic messengers carrying the Gospel? If so I would ask how do you propose to recognize them?

It seems to me the only way to recognize the Lord's messengers is through the Holy Spirit. Yet, you and your friends do nothing but claim that we have to rely on our own interpretations of the scriptures rather than the revelations of God. It makes absolutely no sense to rely on what God has said in the past and ignore what God says now. That was what the Pharisees did and Christ did not bless them for it.

Finally, it seems that you are unfamiliar with the Gospel that was revealed in the Book of Mormon. Which is that Jesus Christ the Son of God suffered and Atoned for the sins of the world, dying on the cross, and rose on the third day. If you believe in some Gospel other than this, than I would suggest that you might want to rethink whether or not you are believing the correct Gospel. I dont know your heart so you have to answer these questions yourself. But God knows us all and will judge according to the Truth and Justice which is in Him.

The next thing that pops up is the passage by the same Holy Spirit of Truth that admonishes us to TEST ALL THINGS.....( 1 Thess. 5:21).

Which, of course, is why we encourage and ask all men to read the Book of Mormon for themselves and to pray to the Father in the name of Christ whether the Book is true in humility and with sincerity of heart. We ask all people to do this prior to being baptized. That way the Spirit can reveal to them the truth.

And I can tell you from personal experience that the Spirit will answer that prayer. And that God is no respecter of persons. He will answer your sincere and humble prayers just as much as He would answer mine or anyone elses who prays to know the truth.

How do you propose to test the things of the Spirit if not by the Holy Spirit?



Interesting question. Can anything touched by human hands be error free? Are your expectations reasonable? Should we disbelieve the Bible when there are factual and grammatical errors?



Considering the angel wasnt the one providing a translation, im not sure that the question on whether an angel has a spell check is really relevant.



And yet the supposed factual errors are rather lacking arent they? for example you cited:



Which of course is blatantly untrue. The Nephites didnt even exist in 550BC, nor did they use a compass. If you read the Book of Mormon, even so much as the first book of it, you would be very much aware of this.



The fact that you are actually using the adieu argument makes it very difficult to take you serious. Especially considering Adieu is also an english word and anyone familiar with translating would realize it would make perfect sense to use an english word familiar to english speakers in translating a text. No one in their right mind would presume that the original text had a French word it.

For example, the Bible is translated from Hebrew and Greek. It often uses the word God. There is no disputing that God is not a Hebrew or Greek word. Are you honestly suggesting that using an English word in an English translation from another language means that the original must have used the English word as well? its insane.

I dont think this is what you are actually proposing though. Because I dont think you've honestly thought about this. I dont think youve done any actual study in the claims of the Book of Mormon. I think you just took someone elses shoddy scholasticism as fact because its convenient to your world view.



Again, your incorrect. Alma predicted that Christ would be born in the land of Jerursalem. I say Im from Philadelphia very often. I dont actually live in Philadelphia I live nearby. Considering there is historic precedent, including in the Bible, of refering Bethlehem as being in the land of Jerusalem, I would conclude that you haven't bothered to research the issue.

So unless you are prepared to conclude that 2 Kings 14:20 makes the Bible wrong, I dont see how you can honestly support this claim.



Again, you seem to be under some impression that a text that is translated into English is somehow wrong for using English words. Your logic makes no sense. Any translated text is going to use the words familiar to people in the language being translated to.

You also seem to indicate that you are unfamiliar with the fact that Jesus Christ is exactly what the Savior has been called for millinium. That just doesnt make sense. Sure. its not the name He was given by His mother. But it is the name He has been known by throughout the world. Many people are called by their titles. In fact, many famous titles become part of their name. Erik the Red for instance wasnt named that by his Mother. But that's what He was called. I doubt Queen Elizabeth of England was named Queen Elizabeth. but that is what the world knows her as.

Your remarkable "proofs" that the Book of Mormon is false dont seem to stand up to serious scrutiny. They never really have. When I was first studying to know whether the Book of Mormon was true or not, it was exactly arguments like these that made me lean towards believing it. I mean if after nearly 180 years this is the best you guys can come up with against it, there has to be something to the Book.




Why does it surprise you that those who would be Christ's would be called after His name prior to His resurrection? Christ was prepared from before the foundations of the world. All the prophets from Adam to the Meridian of time prophecied of the coming of Christ. You think they didnt have faith in the Savior of the world? Do you think they didnt look forward to His coming with faith?

I would clearly excuse Luke's ignorance of those followers of Christ on the other side of the world. Seriously, if this is your serious factual problems, you dont really have much.



Id love to, unfortunately, I dont have the ability to enlighten anyone. But the Holy Spirit does. And He will teach you the truth of all things if you let him. And if you want to prove the Book of Mormon, read it for yourself. You can get one for free. It wont cost you a cent to read the Book and pray to know whether it's true. Or do you doubt the Spirit can enlighten?






True verse, but you are assuming we are the false ones and that you are the true one. Did you ever consider that the adversasry has decieved you? Or are you somehow superior to all others?

Im supposed to believe that by believing the Witness of the Holy Ghost, I am decieved by the advesary based solely on the fact that you say so and that you interpret scriptures differently? I hope you dont find it wrong of me to believe God and what He tells me over what you say. Nor do I hope you think its wrong of me to reject poorly crafted and uninformed arguments that have been responded to millions of times.

Perhaps this can be compared to the ACLU...the American Communist Lawyer Union....who was founded by the Communist Party, and was quoted as being "The Transmission that Drives the Communist Party in America".....but once exposed to the history of their recorded deeds and mission statement, as documented in Congressional Record.......They had a change of heart...how do we know? They told us so...no?

Doesnt seem to be at all relevant to the conversation. So Im going to have to say: Como what?

Many crimes against American Society and Orthodox Christianity were committed by the cult that called themselves Mormons. There is no need to go into a detailed history...but such record can be easily demonstrated. Personally I have nothing against anyone's personal belief....I simply DEMAND the truth, and will accept nothing less.

Convenient. Doesnt have to be demonstrated because you say so. Joseph's only "crime" was stating He saw Jesus Christ and being naive enough to expect those who profess belief in Christ to actually believe Him.

If you demand truth, you really need to raise your standards alittle. If you demand truth, read the Book of Mormon for yourself. If you demand truth, pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you. Because God will reveal His work with power to those who ask and seek it from Him. But if youd rather put your Eternal destiny in your own understanding, you can do that. If you think it wise to reject the Book of Mormon for whatever reason, so be it, but as for me and my house, we will follow the Holy Spirit.

1) Concerning the ANGEL ARGUMENT....You subjectively OPINE the ANGEL mentioned by John in REV. 14:6-7 is "Moroni".....but you do so by declaring the LAST days of mankind as being at some distant point of time in the future...LIKE 1830 You SUBJECTIVELY propagate a message that is delivered in symbols as declared in the very first chapter of REV., ".....and HE sent and "signified" (in the original Greek language.....symbolic in nature) it by an angel unto His servant JOHN -- Rev. 1:1.....and present YOUR OPINION as if it where LITERAL...and propagate a false message that the last days of mankind was yet to come...when clearly the SCRIPTURES declare the last days of mankind began in the 1st century A.D., ".......and it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS......" -- Acts 2:17 Peter very clearly said, "This is what was spoken by the prophet JOEL" -- Acts 2:16....informing everyone they were witnessing...in the 1st century...the last days of mankind, as the spirit of God was poured out. (Acts 2:1-4) Also....you do not take note of the LITERAL words of John, these symbolic revelations that were being presented to him, "....which MUST "SHORTLY" come to pass....." Rev. 1:1 Do you expect anyone to believe that your LITERAL PRIVATE...subjective interpretation of things that must shortly come to pass in a self professed book of symbolism.....happened 1900 years after John made this literal statement.......to the 7 churches of Asia Minor...not to Joseph Smith, "......John to the 7 churches in Asia...." -- Rev. 1:4

2.) Again....you offer nothing but SUBJECTIVE opinion and present it as truth. You present YOUR FALSE claim of having HOLY SPIRIT inspiration in this modern DAY...as being equal to that which was delivered by the same Spirit in the 1st century. "All Scripture is given by INSPIRATION of GOD....." -- 2 Tim. 3:16. Yet it is strange that the BOOK of Mormon....which is said to be inspired by the same God that inspired both the Old and New Testament....clearly contradicts the inspired word of the 1st century. What? Did God change His mind, and decide to contradict what He has formerly revealed?

3.) You SUBJECTIVELY ask us to pray....to test the BOOK of MORMON? Why? When I have already presented OBJECTIVE, Demonstrable, EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that the Book of MORMON holds many MISTAKES that are common to MAN...but not to GOD, IN AN ORIGINAL REVELATION. Are we not ADMONISHED to worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH? -- John 4:24. Just how is that truth....when I can look at something in demonstrable, objective, empirical evidential findings and declare that which is obviously false as if it were not?

4.) Declaring, the Angel as not the one giving the translation is somewhat self defeating...no? That begs to ask the question....if the angel did not provide the supposed revealed truth....does that not PROVE that Joseph Smith attempted to translate something....claiming to be a prophet of God, yet making mistake after mistake as do all men? This speaks volumes in relation to his self professed position as being a true prophet of God........and YES, its very relevant, AS GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. If the Holy Spirit of God has the power to allow men to speak in languages they have never been instructed in....just what prohibited God from allowing Mr. Smith to translate that revelation CORRECTLY the first time....God does not need Mulligans....nor does a true Prophet of God.

5.) Again....you claim in total SUBJECTIVITY of YOUR OPINION that someone is interpreting the Holy Scriptures.......INTERPRETATION? that is the job of he prophet..no? All we need do is COMPREHEND what is revealed as the SCRIPTURES interpret themselves...when they are allowed, without injecting PERSONAL opinionated dogma or tradition there in. Please inform me.....just how is one to interpret this passage of scripture, "Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatever He shall hear, that shall He speak, and shew it unto you." -- John 16:13. You don't interpret it....you simply read and comprehend it....in the contextual integrity in which it was recorded. And very clearly that context informs us that Jesus was speaking to His disciples....not to YOU OR I. Thus, it is YOU that is found guilty of injecting YOUR private interpretation into a very unambiguous passage of scripture....which is strictly FORBIDDEN. As no prophecy is of PRIVATE INTERPRETATION -- 2 Peter 1:19-21

6.) Your statement about the Christ arising on the 3rd day is all but moot.....as nothing that I made retort of concerned the known scriptural fact of Jesus arising on the 3rd day...but clearly the scriptures inform us that when He ascended into the clouds, it was not to go preach the gospel to anyone else on earth....He was going to sit directly on the throne of David...on the right hand side of Father God...IN HEAVEN (Acts 1:11, 2:26-36). And Jesus could not have traveled the earth before ascending to Heaven and becoming a Spirit....because up until that time Jesus was still in the flesh, and this flesh did not see corruption, "Behold my hands and My feet, that it is I myself; handle Me, and see; for a Spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE." -- Luke 24:39 This of course...after His death...burial....and resurrection, proving that He was still flesh and bones until such time as He ascended into heaven.

 

[Ralph]

Does it really matter WHAT I THINK? My words do not establish Christian Doctrine or Truth, but God's words do, and they are found only in one place, the Holy Scriptures. (John 17:17, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).......You have presented many passages taken out of content, not directly proving or disproving anything. Demonstrate in the word of God, just where THERE IS MORE TRUTH to come once ALL TRUTH has been established.....while proving Mormonism and its false message does not rescind the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" (If something is Perfect....why add more?) to that which was established by the saints of the 1st century? -- Jude 3. Thus, Making the word of God a lie....and invalidating His promise not to have his word corrupted once established. God did promise to have His word of truth last an eternity WITHOUT BEING CORRUPTED ( 1 Peter 1:23,25, Matthew 24:35, Ps. 12:6-7), yet here you are attempting to inform us that God is not capable of keeping his promise.

You have yet to prove the faulty assumption that all truth is found in the Bible when the Bible clearly states that there are many things not revealed to the saints in general. Simply repeating the same verses after its been demonstrated that you are incorrectly citing them not convincing argument.

God has been clear that He will do a mighty work in the last days. He has prophecied through His servants many of the miracles He will perform. He has promised to send an angel carrying the everlasting Gospel to the world. Either he has, or he will. Your argumenet that He wont and He has said everything He will ever say just doesnt fly with any serious consideration of the prophecies. How can the two prophets protect Jerusalem before Christ's appearance doing mighty miracles if miracles have ceased? How can men prophecy if God will tell us no more? Your position makes absolutely no sense.

This is much like the false circular reasoning and lies of attempting to inform everyone that man can and will become God. Even though this nonsense is throughly debunked by the simple truth found in the Holy Scriptures. Even if you attempt to make one passage of Gods word into a lie....you are not working with the Holy Spirit of Truth, "Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me and understand that I am He; BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME." Contrary to what Joseph Smith recorded in the Book of Mormon...."God is not a man..." -- Numbers 23:19, nor was He ever a man, as God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

Is it not written ye are gods? If he called those who recieved the word of God, gods and the scriptures cannot be broken, how can you say that those who have recieved the Gospel and be sanctified that the spirit cannot be gods?

If Christ Himself stated that those who recieve the word are gods, who are you to say otherwise? You think you understand the scriptures better than the Savior of the World? Do you think Paul was lying when He promised that we would become joint heirs with Christ and recieve all the Father has? Do you think John lied when He promised us dominions? Do you think Peter lied when He stated that we are made partakers of the Divine nature through Christ?

The New Testament is a glorious testimony that indeed God became a man that men can become gods. For when we see Him, we will know Him, because we will be like Him.




That sentence makes absolutely no sense.



The written witness of Angelic ministry isnt enough for you? The casting out of devils isnt sign enough for you? The fulfillment of prophecy isnt sign enough for you? The raising of the dead isnt enough for you?

No where is there a PROVEN example of anyone being raised from the dead, or divinely healed....

Of course not, I mean i just pulled those examples and my own personal experiences out of thin air. The sick in Nauvoo were never healed despite the countless eyewitnesses journal entries. Im sure Elijah Fordham. or Joseph Noble were revived by accident right at the time Joseph commanded them in the name of Christ to be healed.

Im sure the blind woman Parley P Pratt restored sight to just happened to regain her sight when He commanded it return by the power of Christ?

Or perhaps the miracles that Elder Matthew Cowley did were just coincidences? Or that Alma Smith regrowing a hip was just chance?

and stranger still is the supposed fact of MODERN day apostles....just why should anyone have to go to school to learn a NEW LANGUAGE to spread the gospel...it appears that all it would take would be a simple laying on of the hands of a MODERN APOSTLE and...bingo, people could speak in tongues they were never taught before. Just like the true messengers of God in the 1st century (Acts 2:4-6)

That just shows your ignorance of the gift of tongues and of what happened at Pentecost. It also demonstrates ignorance of what happens nowadays. You have a form of godliness but deny the power of such. I can tell you that you will find countless miracles in the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, the greatest miracle is found in the witness of the Holy Ghost who will let all who ask God know the truth of it. The only sure way to stay close to the Lord is to seek Him in prayer and accept the promptings of the Spirit.

But if you want to continue to pretend as though there are no signs given, you shall see no signs. You should not tempt God to satisfy your lusts. It's unwise. Because the signs you recieve when you do that are the ones you wish you never would see.

That's some real LOGICAL reasoning Pal. First, we find that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God...not some, but ALL, and such is profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Re-proof....to make the man of God...PERFECT. (2 Tim 3:16-17) Thus by your REASONING and LOGIC.......THE WORDS of CHRIST Contradict other passages of SCRIPTURES...but ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by the same source....GOD, thus God is contradicting HIMSELF? Of course we are speaking of the Passages where God declares the truth...there will be NO OTHER GODS as mankind is nothing but servants to the righteousness of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD OF CREATION. -- Isaiah 43:10. With other passages of Scripture clearly and unambiguously declaring that man was created to be a servant of God, (Eccl. 12:13-14) With God once again being very clear that HE alone is God, "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO GOD beside Me......" -- Isaiah 45:5, 46:9. With (Eph. 4:6) declaring, "....one God and Father of ALL..." Thus...you attempt to CHERRY PICK a single passage presented by the Christ and expect this ONE MISREPRESENTED passage to make null and void...ALL the other very clear and unambiguous passages? The scriptures are very clear...when man stands before God in heaven...he will not be the equal of God...but will be there as WORSHIPERS of the One and Only God, -- Rev. 4:10

What you have done is take the Reference that Christ was using....in relation to men becoming JUDGES of other MEN....as the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament that represented JUDGES...were also called gods...with a small "g" because of the authority their decisions held over man. Jesus is merely demonstrating the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees for abusing their position as being the judge of others while they committed the same breaches of law and failed to keep the standards by which they judged others.

 

[Ceasaro]

What's sadder, ralph having studied mormonism so much that he can ask his questions, or avatar pretending to be an elder and speak for the mormon church.