The Truth about Mormons

[KittenKoder]

What's sadder, ralph having studied mormonism so much that he can ask his questions, or avatar pretending to be an elder and speak for the mormon church.

I recommend you learn a bit more yourself. I could engage Avatar (and have a few times) in Q&A regarding "Mormonism" as well, I was forced into the religion, which is probably the primary reason I avoid it now. It's core system of values is pure and decent, the zealots like "TruthSpeaker" give it a bad name and have perverted it, that is the flaw with all organized religion though, when only a few have too much power they will become corrupt, no matter from where they believe the power comes. Atheists are just as prone to this flaw, look at our higher education professors and government sanctioned scientists.

 

[Avatar4321]

[

That's some real LOGICAL reasoning Pal. First, we find that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God...not some, but ALL, and such is profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Re-proof....to make the man of God...PERFECT. (2 Tim 3:16-17) Thus by your REASONING and LOGIC.......THE WORDS of CHRIST Contradict other passages of SCRIPTURES...but ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by the same source....GOD, thus God is contradicting HIMSELF?

I never made any claim that the words of Christ contradict other passages of scriptures. Im saying the words of Christ contradict your faulty interpretations of other passages. So logically you cannot be correct in your interpretation.

As I said, all scripture is inspired and profitable. So it's foolish to ignore new scripture when God reveals it. It's foolish to claim that no one can be inspired of God and then claim that you somehow have a living faith. Your positions are not internally consistant with what we learn from the Scriptures and from the Holy Spirit.

Of course we are speaking of the Passages where God declares the truth...there will be NO OTHER GODS as mankind is nothing but servants to the righteousness of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD OF CREATION. -- Isaiah 43:10. With other passages of Scripture clearly and unambiguously declaring that man was created to be a servant of God, (Eccl. 12:13-14) With God once again being very clear that HE alone is God, "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO GOD beside Me......" -- Isaiah 45:5, 46:9. With (Eph. 4:6) declaring, "....one God and Father of ALL..." Thus...you attempt to CHERRY PICK a single passage presented by the Christ and expect this ONE MISREPRESENTED passage to make null and void...ALL the other very clear and unambiguous passages? The scriptures are very clear...when man stands before God in heaven...he will not be the equal of God...but will be there as WORSHIPERS of the One and Only God, -- Rev. 4:10

The scriptures are very clear. Though there be in the heavens and on the earth many gods and lords, to us there is but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

The scriptures are clear that those who recieve the Word are gods. They are clear that we will stand before God and we will be like Him.

We will become one with the Father, as Christ is one with the Father. Just as Christ promised. That is the whole point of Christ's sacrifice.

What you have done is take the Reference that Christ was using....in relation to men becoming JUDGES of other MEN....as the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament that represented JUDGES...were also called gods...with a small "g" because of the authority their decisions held over man. Jesus is merely demonstrating the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees for abusing their position as being the judge of others while they committed the same breaches of law and failed to keep the standards by which they judged others.

So what Christ is saying is: Ye are called judges, so therefore I don't Blasphemy by claiming to be the Son of God?

Yeah, that makes Christ's arguments very valid.

And you are wrong, the Pharisees and Scribes never recieved the words. They could never be gods.

So Peter was lying about partaking of the Divine nature? Paul was lying when He promised us that we would be joint heirs and inherit all the Father has? If we recieve all the knowledge and power God has through being His servant, you think we are just judges?

You think that because the Lord is the only God of Israel, that somehow negates all the other scriptures which speak of the doctrine of diefication? This is hardly a Mormon only doctrine. Read Mere Christianity sometime. You will find one of the greatest Christian theologians of the 20th century speaking of the doctrine. Read the Church Fathers, you will find the doctrine all throughout their teachings.

Because Protestant Christianity rejects this doctrine, you think that somehow its any less true? Why? Because you know better than those who were taught directly from the Apostles? Because your interpretation of the Bible ignores all the clear teachings to the contrary?

Who am I to deny what the scriptures say? Who am I to deny the power of the Atonement? And why should I accept your interpretation of the scriptures that ignore context, history, and all other verses of scripture?

You have admitted you have no gifts of the Spirit. You've admitted you have no recieved the Holy Ghost. Why should anyone accept your interpretation of scriptures as valid when you admit yourself that you dont have the Spirit to reveal it to you? You have a form of godliness but deny the power of such. And there is power that comes with the Gospel. Yet you profess to believe and deny anyone who teaches the true power of the Atonement.

With the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can be made to be without sin. With the Atonement of Jesus Christ we can recieve all the truth God has. We can gain the knowledge and power God has. He isnt lying when He says we will recieve all He has. Through the Atonement of Christ we will become as He is. Call it whatever you want. Whether you agree with Christ and say we can become gods by recieving word, or if you call us something else, this is exactly what we will be if we use the Atonement of Christ. The scriptures are clear about that. Why should we deny it? What would you call us? We will be perfect beings with all knowledge and power and whose wills will be One with the Father.

Man truly has not seen a glimpse of what the Lord plans to make of us. You can't concieve it. I know I am barely seeing a fraction. But I want to know more. Which is why I have no desire to tell God He cant show me more or tell me more. Which is why I am not going to pretend God has ceased to be God and show His power to men after Ive seen it.

And I dont think it's arrogant to say such things because I believe all men can if they just will let God work in their life. The promises are extended to all who will exercise faith and covenant with Christ.

Tell me, what exactly do you think God has gone to all this trouble for us for? Why do you think He sent His Son to die for us? Why do you think He loves us so much?

 

[Eightball]

Does it really matter WHAT I THINK? My words do not establish Christian Doctrine or Truth, but God's words do, and they are found only in one place, the Holy Scriptures. (John 17:17, 2 Tim. 3:16-17).......You have presented many passages taken out of content, not directly proving or disproving anything. Demonstrate in the word of God, just where THERE IS MORE TRUTH to come once ALL TRUTH has been established.....while proving Mormonism and its false message does not rescind the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" (If something is Perfect....why add more?) to that which was established by the saints of the 1st century? -- Jude 3. Thus, Making the word of God a lie....and invalidating His promise not to have his word corrupted once established. God did promise to have His word of truth last an eternity WITHOUT BEING CORRUPTED ( 1 Peter 1:23,25, Matthew 24:35, Ps. 12:6-7), yet here you are attempting to inform us that God is not capable of keeping his promise.

You have yet to prove the faulty assumption that all truth is found in the Bible when the Bible clearly states that there are many things not revealed to the saints in general. Simply repeating the same verses after its been demonstrated that you are incorrectly citing them not convincing argument.

God has been clear that He will do a mighty work in the last days. He has prophecied through His servants many of the miracles He will perform. He has promised to send an angel carrying the everlasting Gospel to the world. Either he has, or he will. Your argumenet that He wont and He has said everything He will ever say just doesnt fly with any serious consideration of the prophecies. How can the two prophets protect Jerusalem before Christ's appearance doing mighty miracles if miracles have ceased? How can men prophecy if God will tell us no more? Your position makes absolutely no sense.



Is it not written ye are gods? If he called those who recieved the word of God, gods and the scriptures cannot be broken, how can you say that those who have recieved the Gospel and be sanctified that the spirit cannot be gods?

If Christ Himself stated that those who recieve the word are gods, who are you to say otherwise? You think you understand the scriptures better than the Savior of the World? Do you think Paul was lying when He promised that we would become joint heirs with Christ and recieve all the Father has? Do you think John lied when He promised us dominions? Do you think Peter lied when He stated that we are made partakers of the Divine nature through Christ?

The New Testament is a glorious testimony that indeed God became a man that men can become gods. For when we see Him, we will know Him, because we will be like Him.




That sentence makes absolutely no sense.



The written witness of Angelic ministry isnt enough for you? The casting out of devils isnt sign enough for you? The fulfillment of prophecy isnt sign enough for you? The raising of the dead isnt enough for you?




Of course not, I mean i just pulled those examples and my own personal experiences out of thin air. The sick in Nauvoo were never healed despite the countless eyewitnesses journal entries. Im sure Elijah Fordham. or Joseph Noble were revived by accident right at the time Joseph commanded them in the name of Christ to be healed.

Im sure the blind woman Parley P Pratt restored sight to just happened to regain her sight when He commanded it return by the power of Christ?

Or perhaps the miracles that Elder Matthew Cowley did were just coincidences? Or that Alma Smith regrowing a hip was just chance?

and stranger still is the supposed fact of MODERN day apostles....just why should anyone have to go to school to learn a NEW LANGUAGE to spread the gospel...it appears that all it would take would be a simple laying on of the hands of a MODERN APOSTLE and...bingo, people could speak in tongues they were never taught before. Just like the true messengers of God in the 1st century (Acts 2:4-6)

That just shows your ignorance of the gift of tongues and of what happened at Pentecost. It also demonstrates ignorance of what happens nowadays. You have a form of godliness but deny the power of such. I can tell you that you will find countless miracles in the Church of Jesus Christ. In fact, the greatest miracle is found in the witness of the Holy Ghost who will let all who ask God know the truth of it. The only sure way to stay close to the Lord is to seek Him in prayer and accept the promptings of the Spirit.

But if you want to continue to pretend as though there are no signs given, you shall see no signs. You should not tempt God to satisfy your lusts. It's unwise. Because the signs you recieve when you do that are the ones you wish you never would see.

That's some real LOGICAL reasoning Pal. First, we find that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God...not some, but ALL, and such is profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Re-proof....to make the man of God...PERFECT. (2 Tim 3:16-17) Thus by your REASONING and LOGIC.......THE WORDS of CHRIST Contradict other passages of SCRIPTURES...but ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by the same source....GOD, thus God is contradicting HIMSELF? Of course we are speaking of the Passages where God declares the truth...there will be NO OTHER GODS as mankind is nothing but servants to the righteousness of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD OF CREATION. -- Isaiah 43:10. With other passages of Scripture clearly and unambiguously declaring that man was created to be a servant of God, (Eccl. 12:13-14) With God once again being very clear that HE alone is God, "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO GOD beside Me......" -- Isaiah 45:5, 46:9. With (Eph. 4:6) declaring, "....one God and Father of ALL..." Thus...you attempt to CHERRY PICK a single passage presented by the Christ and expect this ONE MISREPRESENTED passage to make null and void...ALL the other very clear and unambiguous passages? The scriptures are very clear...when man stands before God in heaven...he will not be the equal of God...but will be there as WORSHIPERS of the One and Only God, -- Rev. 4:10

What you have done is take the Reference that Christ was using....in relation to men becoming JUDGES of other MEN....as the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament that represented JUDGES...were also called gods...with a small "g" because of the authority their decisions held over man. Jesus is merely demonstrating the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees for abusing their position as being the judge of others while they committed the same breaches of law and failed to keep the standards by which they judged others.

Great Post Ralph: They/Mormons have plagarized what was once the Levitical priesthood with what started with Aaron, Moses' brother and sons, and created this heirarchy within their church based on "works", rather than "faith" through "grace".

Hebrews of the N.T. alone pounds away at the Jews, that there is indeed a Priest, but not of human/created origin, and it is Jesus Christ. The time of formal, ritualistic priesthood has been over since Christ's death, and ressurrection. When the veil in the great temple was ripped in two, to reveal the Holy of Holies to all Jews, and all gentiles, it was clear that God said all may enter through His Son, the only Priest, capable of actually attoning for our sins not for one year at a time as the Levites, but for eternity.

The Aaronic Priesthood of the Mormons is "hog wash". It accomplishes nothing, nada, ........zilch! If anything, it creates a heirarchy within the church dividing the "haves" from the "have nots". Some years ago, it went even further and excluded those of African/Negroid race.

In their P.C. political expediance, their President/Prophet had a "word from their god" that Blacks could now be included in their priesthood. How convenient, how secular pressure from the media seem to coincide with a "word from their god"?

Kitten: I realize that you had some bad experiences with the LDS church, and you say that the "Truthspeaker/Avatars" are the reason, as they are so radical.

Actually, Kitten, Truthspeaker and Avatar reflect the true "inner core" of LDS doctrine. To the novice who doesn't go into the temple rites, priesthood, the LDS church appears very benign, as it is for monogamous marriage, American patriotism, clean living, apple pie, "leave to beaver" family living, the American flag.

All of these things are good habits of life, but don't "earn" us a place in God's favor, as they are usually "works" in order to please the LDS god.

God surely wants us to be good neighbors, be helpful to others, and servants, but true biblical faith in God, is based on a inner-most transformation that God performs in man, on a one-on-one basis. None of us gain heavenly residence after death based on how we lived our lives alone. How we live our lives is suppose to be a result of our transformed lives from Adamic lost sinners, to New Adamic(Christ the New Adam) humans deemed righteous and Holy before God, pardoned of our sinful natures, and given new natures alive to God and dead to the world.

The Mormon church has for years been wooing in folks who believe that being a Christian involves living a good spotless life, including good deeds to others. It just isn't as the bible says! God says that we can't "earn" heaven and an abiding relationship with Him, through goodie-two-shoes works.

Why do you think that of all major religions in our country that Mormons have the highest per-capita rate of alcoholism?

From a biblical perspective, it's very plain to discern from scripture where good deeds, and clean living fit into God's paradigm of humanity. Biblical Christians live out a life based on gratitude, because of the unmerited favor/grace of God. Also, the life change in a true born-again Christian is the result of the H.S. coming to reside in the formerly lost/sinners soul(mind, will, emotions).

In some ways you can metaphorically draw a picture of the human soul, with three important properties, a wil/chooser, feelings/emotions, and mind/thought processor. But there is one very important piece of furniture in the center of these three human qualities; a throne, or the place intended to seat the most important influence in a person's life. This throne, was designed to seat Christ, so that the human will, emotions, and mind, would operate or finalize all that was to happen through the one holding the final decision. You might want to say that the throne of a man's soul was intended to seat the Spirit of Christ, or the Holy Spirit, both being the same.

This is why Christ told Nicodemus that "yee must be born again or from above"; meaning that new life comes from a heavenly source not from "you" Nicodemus. Sadly, Nicodemus didn't get it and thought that somehow he must be born physically from his mother's womb all over again. Without the H.S. to enlighten Nicodemus, he thought humanistically along the same realm that Mormons do good deeds/works in order to please God.

Mormons work hard to "Be". True born again/saved Christians do good things because their new identity is already established, and the good deeds are a natural out-pouring of their new nature placed within them at the time of salvation.

You can work your darn butt off all your life trying to please God, yet not be saved. Even Abraham was considered righteous in God's eyes not based on deeds, but that he/Abraham believed. As we see in Abrahams later life, he did many awful things, yet God said he/abram was His for eternity.

Most folks believe that if God really loves humanity, He won't allow any of them perish eternally, from His presence. That's humanistic, unbiblical approach that is the easy or wide road mentioned in Revelations. God's road is narrow, as it involves man accepting his sins, his limitations, his fallen Adamic nature, and accepting in his heart that He/God is truly Lord of all, and that Christ is the only true Priest that is capable of accepting all our sin; past, present, future.

The true Christian must internally bow his/her knees in contrite heart, and accepty transparency of their soul before their Maker. With that, God enters into that life, not by good deeds, but by that person's faith/belief that Christ is the only "life boat" in this drowning sea of human life.

 

[Avatar4321]

What's sadder, ralph having studied mormonism so much that he can ask his questions, or avatar pretending to be an elder and speak for the mormon church.

I dont have to speak for the Church. I can speak for myself. I dont have to pretend to be anything.

However, what's truly sad is you think that ralph has done any actual studying of Mormonism. Studying requires more than regurgitation of questions that have been answered decades ago. Studying requires actually looking for answers instead of establishing predrawn conclusions. It requires reflection and attempts to understand opposing positions.

I started really studying the Gospel over 10 years ago. I looked at everything I could get my hands on pro or con. I thought every argument for and against out. And you know what? The more i saw the critisms, the more I believed because the distortions were so easy to find. The arguments were poorly done and often answered long in the past with the answers ignored.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be a Restoration of the New Testament Church. If Joseph Smith just made up wild doctrine, there should be sign of it in early Christianity. Yet some of the most controversial doctrines that somehow prove Mormonism false are all found in the early Church. The so-called "unchristian doctrines" have far more support in ancient Christianity than modern doctrines of protestant theology.

I have nothing against protestant Christianity. I think it was a necessary development which helped bring what scriptures we have in the Bible to the people. It helped provide fertile ground for religious freedom. But no man has power to reform God's Church, no matter how well intentioned. We can not reform what was lost. Only God can restore what was the lost. The gifts, the power, the authority, the keys of the Kingdom.

No man, however well intentioned can reform these back into existance. Only God could call men and give them power from on High. Even many of the reformers acknowledged their limitations and looked forward to the day when the Lord would once again send Apostles to preach with power.

I dont think it was a coincidence that the second the people started to become literate the reformation began. The scriptures made it clear there was something lost. And I also dont think that it's a coincidence that there was a Restoration the first generation after there was finally a nation that guarenteed religious freedom.

Ive gotten off my point. Studying requires reflextion. Ive seen no evidence that this was done.

 

[Avatar4321]

I recommend you learn a bit more yourself. I could engage Avatar (and have a few times) in Q&A regarding "Mormonism" as well, I was forced into the religion, which is probably the primary reason I avoid it now. It's core system of values is pure and decent, the zealots like "TruthSpeaker" give it a bad name and have perverted it, that is the flaw with all organized religion though, when only a few have too much power they will become corrupt, no matter from where they believe the power comes. Atheists are just as prone to this flaw, look at our higher education professors and government sanctioned scientists.

Sadly, though I think this is mainly because many of the Saints fail to realize that few don't have the power. If what we were taught was actually followed, it would be clear that all who exercise faith can have great power.

And its also because people exercise power unrighteously all the time. Its a hard lesson to learn. Which is why many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Avatar4321]

Great Post Ralph: They/Mormons have plagarized what was once the Levitical priesthood with what started with Aaron, Moses' brother and sons, and created this heirarchy within their church based on "works", rather than "faith" through "grace".

You still dont get it? Works mean nothing. Pretending as though that's what Mormonism teaches demonstrates that you don't actually understand it. Its not about what we do, but what we become through the atonement.

Hebrews of the N.T. alone pounds away at the Jews, that there is indeed a Priest, but not of human/created origin, and it is Jesus Christ. The time of formal, ritualistic priesthood has been over since Christ's death, and ressurrection. When the veil in the great temple was ripped in two, to reveal the Holy of Holies to all Jews, and all gentiles, it was clear that God said all may enter through His Son, the only Priest, capable of actually attoning for our sins not for one year at a time as the Levites, but for eternity.

"Pounds away at the jews"? I dont think any scriptures pound away at anything. All scriptures were written to teach and edify and to bring men and women closer to Christ. They werent written to put people down, but to lift people up.

However, your point is completely irrelevant, no one has ever claimed that anyone other than Christ can Atone for our sins. Even the rituals of the Law of Moses were symbolically pointing to Christ, not actually atoning.

The Aaronic Priesthood of the Mormons is "hog wash". It accomplishes nothing, nada, ........zilch! If anything, it creates a heirarchy within the church dividing the "haves" from the "have nots". Some years ago, it went even further and excluded those of African/Negroid race.

Divides the haves and the have nots? Your proposition makes little to no sense. The Aaronic Priesthood accomplishes quite a bit in the Church. It takes care of the temporal well being of the Church. It is through the ministration of the Aaronic Priesthood that the poor and needy are provided with the sustenance they need. Through the Aaronic Priesthood comes baptism for the remission of sins.

In their P.C. political expediance, their President/Prophet had a "word from their god" that Blacks could now be included in their priesthood. How convenient, how secular pressure from the media seem to coincide with a "word from their god"?

Secular pressures? Please... I assume it was secular pressures that persuaded Peter to extend the word of God to the Gentiles?

Kitten: I realize that you had some bad experiences with the LDS church, and you say that the "Truthspeaker/Avatars" are the reason, as they are so radical.

I dont believe she said that at all. But she can speak for herself.

Actually, Kitten, Truthspeaker and Avatar reflect the true "inner core" of LDS doctrine. To the novice who doesn't go into the temple rites, priesthood, the LDS church appears very benign, as it is for monogamous marriage, American patriotism, clean living, apple pie, "leave to beaver" family living, the American flag.

I wonder how all those British Saints feel about American Patriotism. Or the French Saints.. Or the Chinese Saints.

There is no inner core of doctrine. If there was, you wouldnt know it.

All of these things are good habits of life, but don't "earn" us a place in God's favor, as they are usually "works" in order to please the LDS god.

Again, you fail to understand the place works are nor do you honestly recognize our reliance on Christ to achieve what we do.

God surely wants us to be good neighbors, be helpful to others, and servants, but true biblical faith in God, is based on a inner-most transformation that God performs in man, on a one-on-one basis. None of us gain heavenly residence after death based on how we lived our lives alone. How we live our lives is suppose to be a result of our transformed lives from Adamic lost sinners, to New Adamic(Christ the New Adam) humans deemed righteous and Holy before God, pardoned of our sinful natures, and given new natures alive to God and dead to the world.

And yet you whine about people doing exactly that because you dont like their theology.

The Mormon church has for years been wooing in folks who believe that being a Christian involves living a good spotless life, including good deeds to others. It just isn't as the bible says! God says that we can't "earn" heaven and an abiding relationship with Him, through goodie-two-shoes works.

Once again I implore you to actually read the Book of Mormon so you fail to speak so ignorantly.

Why do you think that of all major religions in our country that Mormons have the highest per-capita rate of alcoholism?

A man once said there are three types of lies: Lies, Damned lies, and statistics.

The saints have their faults, alcohol isnt one of them.

From a biblical perspective, it's very plain to discern from scripture where good deeds, and clean living fit into God's paradigm of humanity. Biblical Christians live out a life based on gratitude, because of the unmerited favor/grace of God. Also, the life change in a true born-again Christian is the result of the H.S. coming to reside in the formerly lost/sinners soul(mind, will, emotions).

Yet, you reject the Book of Mormon and Mormonism for teaching the same exact thing. Funny.

In some ways you can metaphorically draw a picture of the human soul, with three important properties, a wil/chooser, feelings/emotions, and mind/thought processor. But there is one very important piece of furniture in the center of these three human qualities; a throne, or the place intended to seat the most important influence in a person's life. This throne, was designed to seat Christ, so that the human will, emotions, and mind, would operate or finalize all that was to happen through the one holding the final decision. You might want to say that the throne of a man's soul was intended to seat the Spirit of Christ, or the Holy Spirit, both being the same.

I can sum up what you are saying: We are Temples to the Holy Spirit.

Which, of course, is nothing any mormon would disagree with.

This is why Christ told Nicodemus that "yee must be born again or from above"; meaning that new life comes from a heavenly source not from "you" Nicodemus. Sadly, Nicodemus didn't get it and thought that somehow he must be born physically from his mother's womb all over again. Without the H.S. to enlighten Nicodemus, he thought humanistically along the same realm that Mormons do good deeds/works in order to please God.

34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34-35)

Now i understand your athema to good works. You seem to think they are unpleasing to God. Yet, Peter says he who works righteousness is accepted of God.

You seem to have this idea that doing God is somehow rejecting the Atonement of Christ? That God somehow hates when we do good. This makes no sense Biblically or rationally.

God is pleased when we do good. He isnt pleased when we dont. Does that mean our good works save us? Of course not, we are saved by Christ. Yet, you dont like the idea that God actually expects us to do anything to show our faith and love to Him. It just doesnt make sense.

Mormons work hard to "Be". True born again/saved Christians do good things because their new identity is already established, and the good deeds are a natural out-pouring of their new nature placed within them at the time of salvation.

Of course we try hard to "be". The Lord has asked us for our best. We love Him. So we try do our best. We show our Him our Faith by acting, not just professing. I understand you find this to be blasphemy, but honestly, that's not my problem. I have to listen to what the Lord whispers to me. You do the same. He will judge us according to our actions, our thoughts, and desires of our hearts.

You can work your darn butt off all your life trying to please God, yet not be saved. Even Abraham was considered righteous in God's eyes not based on deeds, but that he/Abraham believed. As we see in Abrahams later life, he did many awful things, yet God said he/abram was His for eternity.

We dont work to be saved. Ive told you this countless times, yet you still refuse to listen.

Ive read much of Abraham, where did he do many awful things?

Most folks believe that if God really loves humanity, He won't allow any of them perish eternally, from His presence. That's humanistic, unbiblical approach that is the easy or wide road mentioned in Revelations. God's road is narrow, as it involves man accepting his sins, his limitations, his fallen Adamic nature, and accepting in his heart that He/God is truly Lord of all, and that Christ is the only true Priest that is capable of accepting all our sin; past, present, future.

This seems rather pointless since we agree with you. God loves us. He gives us free will. And not all of us will recieve Eternal Life.

The true Christian must internally bow his/her knees in contrite heart, and accepty transparency of their soul before their Maker. With that, God enters into that life, not by good deeds, but by that person's faith/belief that Christ is the only "life boat" in this drowning sea of human life.

No one disagrees with this. Why do you keep repeating it as though you are making some startling and earth shattering point?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

 

[Ralph]

[

That's some real LOGICAL reasoning Pal. First, we find that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God...not some, but ALL, and such is profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Re-proof....to make the man of God...PERFECT. (2 Tim 3:16-17) Thus by your REASONING and LOGIC.......THE WORDS of CHRIST Contradict other passages of SCRIPTURES...but ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by the same source....GOD, thus God is contradicting HIMSELF?

I never made any claim that the words of Christ contradict other passages of scriptures. Im saying the words of Christ contradict your faulty interpretations of other passages. So logically you cannot be correct in your interpretation.

As I said, all scripture is inspired and profitable. So it's foolish to ignore new scripture when God reveals it. It's foolish to claim that no one can be inspired of God and then claim that you somehow have a living faith. Your positions are not internally consistant with what we learn from the Scriptures and from the Holy Spirit.

Of course we are speaking of the Passages where God declares the truth...there will be NO OTHER GODS as mankind is nothing but servants to the righteousness of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD OF CREATION. -- Isaiah 43:10. With other passages of Scripture clearly and unambiguously declaring that man was created to be a servant of God, (Eccl. 12:13-14) With God once again being very clear that HE alone is God, "I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is NO GOD beside Me......" -- Isaiah 45:5, 46:9. With (Eph. 4:6) declaring, "....one God and Father of ALL..." Thus...you attempt to CHERRY PICK a single passage presented by the Christ and expect this ONE MISREPRESENTED passage to make null and void...ALL the other very clear and unambiguous passages? The scriptures are very clear...when man stands before God in heaven...he will not be the equal of God...but will be there as WORSHIPERS of the One and Only God, -- Rev. 4:10

The scriptures are very clear. Though there be in the heavens and on the earth many gods and lords, to us there is but one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

The scriptures are clear that those who recieve the Word are gods. They are clear that we will stand before God and we will be like Him.

We will become one with the Father, as Christ is one with the Father. Just as Christ promised. That is the whole point of Christ's sacrifice.

What you have done is take the Reference that Christ was using....in relation to men becoming JUDGES of other MEN....as the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament that represented JUDGES...were also called gods...with a small "g" because of the authority their decisions held over man. Jesus is merely demonstrating the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees for abusing their position as being the judge of others while they committed the same breaches of law and failed to keep the standards by which they judged others.

So what Christ is saying is: Ye are called judges, so therefore I don't Blasphemy by claiming to be the Son of God?

Yeah, that makes Christ's arguments very valid.

And you are wrong, the Pharisees and Scribes never recieved the words. They could never be gods.

So Peter was lying about partaking of the Divine nature? Paul was lying when He promised us that we would be joint heirs and inherit all the Father has? If we recieve all the knowledge and power God has through being His servant, you think we are just judges?

You think that because the Lord is the only God of Israel, that somehow negates all the other scriptures which speak of the doctrine of diefication? This is hardly a Mormon only doctrine. Read Mere Christianity sometime. You will find one of the greatest Christian theologians of the 20th century speaking of the doctrine. Read the Church Fathers, you will find the doctrine all throughout their teachings.

Because Protestant Christianity rejects this doctrine, you think that somehow its any less true? Why? Because you know better than those who were taught directly from the Apostles? Because your interpretation of the Bible ignores all the clear teachings to the contrary?

Who am I to deny what the scriptures say? Who am I to deny the power of the Atonement? And why should I accept your interpretation of the scriptures that ignore context, history, and all other verses of scripture?

You have admitted you have no gifts of the Spirit. You've admitted you have no recieved the Holy Ghost. Why should anyone accept your interpretation of scriptures as valid when you admit yourself that you dont have the Spirit to reveal it to you? You have a form of godliness but deny the power of such. And there is power that comes with the Gospel. Yet you profess to believe and deny anyone who teaches the true power of the Atonement.

With the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can be made to be without sin. With the Atonement of Jesus Christ we can recieve all the truth God has. We can gain the knowledge and power God has. He isnt lying when He says we will recieve all He has. Through the Atonement of Christ we will become as He is. Call it whatever you want. Whether you agree with Christ and say we can become gods by recieving word, or if you call us something else, this is exactly what we will be if we use the Atonement of Christ. The scriptures are clear about that. Why should we deny it? What would you call us? We will be perfect beings with all knowledge and power and whose wills will be One with the Father.

Man truly has not seen a glimpse of what the Lord plans to make of us. You can't concieve it. I know I am barely seeing a fraction. But I want to know more. Which is why I have no desire to tell God He cant show me more or tell me more. Which is why I am not going to pretend God has ceased to be God and show His power to men after Ive seen it.

And I dont think it's arrogant to say such things because I believe all men can if they just will let God work in their life. The promises are extended to all who will exercise faith and covenant with Christ.

Tell me, what exactly do you think God has gone to all this trouble for us for? Why do you think He sent His Son to die for us? Why do you think He loves us so much?

I can see that LYING, does not seem to concern the brethren....no? An implied lie is the same as an applied lie. Just as there are sins of omission as well as co-mission. The words of God debunk the nonsensical SUBJECTIVE opinion that you suggested the CHRIST was making in claiming that men have the power and ability to become GODS. Clearly when the cult of Mormonism is confronted with the TRUTH and LOGIC of the actual content of the SCRIPTURES all their proponents seem capable of doing is deflecting.


Not one BIBLICAL TRUTH that was presented was even attempted to be reconciled to the false ideology of Mormonism.......as not ONE OBJECTIVE answer was given that came from the passages of the Holy Scriptures, were the truth of God lies (John 17:17), a truth that WE or anyone that professes to be a true servant of God are admonished to be sanctified in. All you characters have been able to do is SUBJECTIVELY OPINE about what YOU BELIEVE the SCRIPTURES to be declaring.......but when read and comprehend in the CONTEXT of OBJECTIVE HONESTY, the scriptures cut the cult of Mormonism to the core.

I just fail to see how anyone could have faith in the SUBJECTIVE mind of man, as that is all the Mormon faith consists of. I especially enjoyed the way YOU VALIDATED YOUR OPINION in scriptural conformation by presenting Book, Chapter, and Verse. I was of the understanding that we were going to have a debate on the ACTUAL CONTENT of the HOLY SCRIPTURES...not some 7th grade submission of SUBJECTIVITY to emotionalism.

Whatever YOU BELIEVE is moot to the authority of GOD, and what He has revealed in order that we might follow His righteous precepts (Deut 29:29)....even the demons believe, AND TREMBLE. -- 2 James 2:19. We are to continue in the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY"....not attempt to add unto such...without the OBJECTIVE PROF of conformation of GOD. ".....he who looks in the Perfect Law of Liberty (the New Testament Covenant) and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." -- James 1:25

 

[Ralph]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Very nice example of ad hominem emotionalism based upon personal bigotry. That sure is the way to establish an example of worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Can you spell D E F L E C T I O N............due to the inability to present any OBJECTIVE scriptural conformation of your SUBJECTIVE FAITH? You folks....have simply overwhelmed me, with empirical evidential presentations. As Apostles, Angels, Messengers.....to your god ( 2 Cor. 4:4).

 

[Ralph]

The False Ideology presented in deceit attempts to present the Christ as claiming all men have the capacity to become Gods. Of course the passage...which is referenced in SUBJECTIVE OPINION and presented as PROOF would be the reference that Jesus used in the passages of John 10:33-36.

First...we must keep this passage in the CONTEXT in which it was presented. Jesus was speaking to a crowd that was angered by the truth of His message. They were upset because Jesus had made the Claim to be the Son of God. They realized He was claiming to be DEITY....with His words holding the authority of Law. Jesus simply rebuked and reproved them by making reference to (Ps. 82) of the Old Book where PEOPLE ARE CALLED "gods". Where Father God had allowed their fathers to be JUDGES over the lives of others....and now they were falsely judging HIM..in hypocrisy.

This is not at all confusing. Is Jesus actually declaring that ALL PEOPLE are gods? Of course not....if you are to reason such as this....you must reason in contradictory fashion to the MANY PASSAGES of scriptures, which were all inspired by the same God (2 Tim. 3:16) which quite clearly and unambiguously declare the direct revealed words of God which declare the fact of there being only ONE GOD, with none other to EVER come. (Isaiah 43:10, 45:5, 46:9, Eph. 4:6, Numbers 23:19, Deut. 4:35-39)....and the fact that man was created as servants to God (Eccl. 12:3-4), And after the judgment when in Heaven will remain servants to God, not the equal but worshipers (Rev.4:10)

Even if one attempts to argue that Jesus was a man and this PROVES that men can become Gods...they do so by beginning with a false precept.....that Jesus was CREATED as a man, which is not supported by the Scriptures. Jesus was never CREATED.....He is presented in scripture as an eternal being that has always existed, He was ALWAYS GOD...even before assuming the form of man He was in heaven and the equal of God as He was with God and was God (John 1:1-5, 1 Tim. 3:16). With the inspired Apostle informing us, "Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God....BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON THE FORM OF A SERVANT......." -- Phil. 2:6-7). Thus, God can take on the form of a man....but man who was never God...cannot become God, because MAN will ALWAYS be in subjection to GOD ( 1 Cor. 11:1) The scriptures further declare that Jesus was not CREATED, because He always was....but inversely.....HE CREATED THE WORLDS (Col. 1:15-18). Its a simple scriptural declaration..... God consists of 3 divine beings(Father God, The Word/Jesus/Son, and the Holy Spirit) existing in the Divine entity known as the GODHEAD ( 1 John 5:7, Acts 5:4-5, Romans 1:7, Hebrews 1:8)

The Mormons........as we can see.......in direct contradiction to all the OBJECTIVE and viewable evidence offered in the Holy Scriptures in Actual Record...still SUBJECTIVELY CLAIM....as demonstrated they cannot offer any scriptural support for the false ideology, that mankind has the power to become GODs, so they DISTORT the true word and record by CHERRY PICKING this one misapplied passage (John 10:33-36)....and present it as if Jesus is declaring that ALL MEN are Gods or can become Gods.

Its a very simple thing to go DIRECTLY to the passage that was referenced by the Christ in John 10 to reprove the angry crowd (Ps. 82) and establish....IN CONTEXT just what was being referenced.

In two different verses of Ps. 82....1 and 9, the Hebrew word, in the original language "elohim" is used to refer to humans. Depending upon what translation is used this word can mean...god or ruler in verse 1. It is consistently translated "gods" with a small "g" and in the plural instead of the singular. In the majority of the passages this word is clearly referenced to mean GOD..the Almighty.....a few times it is used in describing Idols and then in few cases as in Ps. 82...it is clearly made in reference to people....who hold authority as ruler over others.

Example; Ex. 22:9. The only translation that uses "Elohim" as GOD is the American Standard translation....."all" others represent the word as JUDGES...rulers holding authority over others.

The reason the word Elohim is used? Because God appointed the judges of men...by taking the first born from each family and dedicating them to the JUDGING tribe of LEVITES.....and these JUDGES SPEAK in authority FOR GOD ALMIGHTY, "Then he set judges in the land throughout all the fortified cities of Judah, city by city, and said to the judges, 'Take heed to what you are doing, for you do not judge for MAN BUT FOR THE LORD....WHO IS WITH YOU IN THE JUDGMENT." -- 2 Chronicles 19:5-6........The leaders, the judges, deliver God's judgments to the people -- Deut. 1:15-17.

All words have meanings.....depending upon the CONTEXT of the subject they are addressing. The Hebrew word "EL" means...mighty, The word ELOHIM is simply the PLURAL form of the word MIGHTY. It can be most difficult sometimes in referencing the words of the Old Book which was originally drafted in the Hebrew Language....with less letters in their alphabet...often the same word carried several different meanings........and as ALWAYS, one must address the CONTEXT when making a determination as to the use of any word...especially when there is NO VERBATIM translation available from the original HEBREW into any modern language.

But clearly.....anyone can see, if you misrepresent the reference of JESUS to make pretense that He was even suggesting that MEN are actually EQUAL to the ALMIGHTY......you must CONTRADICT many other very CLEAR passages of SCRIPTURE in order to mold this one passage into your ideology....in a VERY SUBJECTIVE MANNER.

As EVERYONE can see based upon the PRIMA FACIE evidence of their own retorts.......where they cherry pick only selected passages.....and offer no BOOK, CHAPTER, or VERSE in any other negation of their opinion in retort........THE ENTIRE 'MO' of this CULT is based on nothing but emotional SUBJECTIVITY, and PRIDE in hoping to DEFLECT what they Obviously cannot prove....as we also see, the condescending AD HOMINEM personal attacks that come forth in making pretension of their supposed divine guidance while attempting to declare everyone that disagrees with them....as STUPID. But, a good belly laughed is always enjoyed while viewing the pomposity of the prideful. As always....I enjoy a good SHOW.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Very nice example of ad hominem emotionalism based upon personal bigotry. That sure is the way to establish an example of worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Can you spell D E F L E C T I O N............due to the inability to present any OBJECTIVE scriptural conformation of your SUBJECTIVE FAITH? You folks....have simply overwhelmed me, with empirical evidential presentations. As Apostles, Angels, Messengers.....to your god ( 2 Cor. 4:4).

I took a good amount of time to respond to everything you brought up. I exposed that you not only misquoted scriptures far out of context but sometimes didn't even quote the right scripture. I took all of your points and highlighted them red. then I posted the answer to all of them. Since then, you haven't addressed a single one of my answers. That is why you are overmatched. You and 8 ball just love repeating yourselves.

You don't understand the point of this thread. I am clarifying misconceptions about what we believe. I'm not here to prove anyone wrong. I just want people to get the straight dope on what we believe. If you disagree, I won't try to sway you. But if you attack my church saying we believe things that we really don't, then I need to answer those attacks.

I get that you don't agree with my religion. More power to you. But don't try to misrepresent my religion. I am the authority on my religion. Not you.

Go believe what you want. I have never tried to tear down anyone else's religion. But you and people like 8-ball have nothing better to do with your time other than try to misrepresent my church.

Can't we just agree to disagree? I'm not interested in debate.

 

[Avatar4321]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Overmatched? It's not a competition. They arent my enemies. Im not trying to out do them. They arent your enemies. Your zeal is good, but zeal without charity can be more damaging than good. Joseph said:

"If I esteem mankind to be in error shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst."

This isnt a competition. We are supposed to be lifting people up not putting them down.

 

[Eightball]

Ralph: Another concise, and extremely accurate post! Your ability to reveal/show Holy Bible scripture that directly refutes Mormon/LDS doctrine, and the claims of the OP, and other LDS members posting here is breath-taking.

For anyone to even suggest that you and I are the same person posting under different monikers is simply a desperate attempt at deflection.

Even if we were the same person covertly posting under two names, they've yet to contest the evidence of scripture and secular history that demands a verdict. They say they have, but they go back to the BOM or use "inductive" methods with the bible, lacking proper theological technique to guard against error.

It's still the same. If you want, you can "make" the bible say what "you want" it to say to assuage your conscience, but to "let" the bible speak in "full context" is to "chance" that your paradigm of God, and existence itself is wrong, and is in need of correction.

Joseph Smith revealed that either he was extremely crafty, or extremely ignorant of what God was revealing through the Holy Scriptures. Anyway you look at it, he/Smith created a monolith of a movement, that has not doubt grieved God to no end.

Mormons "mean well", as I've shared about some dear Christian friends of mine who didn't keep close to the bible, and were basically immature in their faith, and joined the LDS church, not because of doctrine, but because of the pro-family, atmosphere. No doubt myriads who didn't grow up in Mormon families and joined the church did so, because of the "family friendly" external presentation of the LDS/Mormon church.

All my wife and I could do was pray for our dear friends and their children, that God would lead them out of this "cult", as it was impossible to reason with them at the time that they were members of it.

God indeed answered prayers! A few years later, the husband of the couple and family came to visit us, and shared about their journey in Mormonism, and how hard it was for them to face the "Truth" that as Christians they had made a horrible mistake. They officially left the LDS/Mormon church, but did fondly remember a lot of wonderful friendships they had with Mormons, and hoped that they could mainting those friendships. Sadly, the church hunkered down, and basically encouraged their old Mormons friends to avoid, and drift away from contact.

Our Christian friends realized that when they joined the Mormon church, it was a result of not knowing the "bible" as Paul had taught over and over again in the N.T. epistles. They were "taken in" by what "appeared" to be Christian fruit, or the family, closeness of the LDS/Mormon church congregation, but didn't know that under that veneer, was a most convoluted anti-Christian, humanistic based doctrine, that fed the flesh, and not the Spirit.

The wife had always had a hard time with Jesus saying that there is no, "Marriage" between husband and wife in heaven. It saddened her, as she couldn't picture her and her husband in heaven not being married still. It is indeed a difficult thing to ponder as a Christian, but our earthly bonds with our loved ones will not compare one bit to the heavenly/eternal bonds that we will share with our "saved" spouse, or parents relatives/friends in heaven.

Anyway, the LDS/Mormon anti-biblical doctrine of continued husband and wife marriages in heaven was one of those humanistic/earthly offerings of that cult, and our friends found comfort in that.

It was only after continuing to study the bible while being Mormon members that they gradually were convicted of their error, and realized that they must exit.

Nowadays, this couple has found a bible church-home, and stays very much in the Word of God.

They harbor no ill feelings towards the Mormons, but they do tell others of the snare that awaits those that enter into membership in Mormonism.

Surprisingly, those who have come out of Mormonism have very similar testimonies in regards to how the Holy bible or scripture study while being a Mormon, gradually convinced them through the counsel of the Holy Spirit that they needed to leave. The scripture revealed to them that below the thick family oriented veneer of Mormonism, was an unbiblical paradigm.

One last sad finish to our Christian friend's saga of coming out of the clutches of Mormonism: Their two sons are still in the Mormon church. In fact the oldest son and his very devout Mormon wife have basically shunned our friends, their parents. The kids recently had a baby, and the son's Mormon wife is doing all she can to make contact by these Christian grandparents as little as possible.

That is one of the tell-tail finger prints of how a cult operates, and keeps it's members from straying.

 

[Ralph]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Overmatched? It's not a competition. They arent my enemies. Im not trying to out do them. They arent your enemies. Your zeal is good, but zeal without charity can be more damaging than good. Joseph said:

"If I esteem mankind to be in error shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst."

This isnt a competition. We are supposed to be lifting people up not putting them down.

More "Prima Facie" evidence of deflection by use of AD Hominem Pride? As clearly evidenced....YOU or no one in this man made cult can oppose the TRUTH offered in the Holy Scriptures. Its a simple task....just present Book, Chapter and Verse in DEFENSE of what you propagate. EVERY TIME that you retort by mere SUBJECTIVE prideful attempts of personal insult you merely drive another nail in your own coffin.....and expose another truth offered in the Holy Scriptures, "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms into an angel of light. Therefore IT IS NO GREAT THING if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." -- 2 Cor. 11:14-15

ONE SUCH WORK recorded in history actual. Vengeance. "....vengeance is mine, I will repay, sayeth the LORD" -- Romans 12:19, as directly referenced by Deut: 32:35.....it does not belong to nor does the Mormon Cult have the Authority for 'Blood Vengeance".

Mountain Meadows massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention.....a history of Polygamy, and Open Revolt against the United States of America...and of course....YOUR CULT has had a change of Heart..no? Why? Not by free will, but because of Forced Service. Proving that YOUR cult lives by the Iron Rule of Life...not the Golden Rule....you conformed YOUR stance simply because of the FEAR of Restitution. If what you were propagating as truth were the truth of God, would it not be your place to..."Obey God rather than MEN"? (Acts 5:29). For Indeed....we as righteous Christians are admonished to obey the laws of man......as long they are righteous in the sight of God, as their duty as being appointed by God requires said Law to be established to "Punish the Wicked and Reward the Righteous." -- Romans 13:1-7. When said Government fails to obey the righteous laws of God......We are admonished to obey the TRANSCENDING AUTHORITY of GOD....who indeed was approached on appeal by the very founders of this nation In our Declaration of Independence.

It is our place to LIFT people up instead of letting them down? How...by allowing their eternal soul to burn in hell? What? Should we Do evil (lies and deceit) so that GOOD may come from it? Hardly. We must stay grounded in the TRUTH of God's Word...for that is the ONLY PLACE where the truth of God exists -- John 17:17 We are commanded to worship in SPIRIT and "TRUTH"....not the deceit of "tickling the ears" of the hearers. -- John 4:24.

"For when they speak great swelling words OF EMPTINESS, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. WHILE THEY PROMISE THEM LIBERTY, THEY THEMSELVES ARE SLAVES OF CORRUPTION, for whom by a person is overcome, by him he is brought into BONDAGE." -- 2 Peter 2:18-19.

 

[Ralph]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Very nice example of ad hominem emotionalism based upon personal bigotry. That sure is the way to establish an example of worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Can you spell D E F L E C T I O N............due to the inability to present any OBJECTIVE scriptural conformation of your SUBJECTIVE FAITH? You folks....have simply overwhelmed me, with empirical evidential presentations. As Apostles, Angels, Messengers.....to your god ( 2 Cor. 4:4).

I took a good amount of time to respond to everything you brought up. I exposed that you not only misquoted scriptures far out of context but sometimes didn't even quote the right scripture. I took all of your points and highlighted them red. then I posted the answer to all of them. Since then, you haven't addressed a single one of my answers. That is why you are overmatched. You and 8 ball just love repeating yourselves.

You don't understand the point of this thread. I am clarifying misconceptions about what we believe. I'm not here to prove anyone wrong. I just want people to get the straight dope on what we believe. If you disagree, I won't try to sway you. But if you attack my church saying we believe things that we really don't, then I need to answer those attacks.

I get that you don't agree with my religion. More power to you. But don't try to misrepresent my religion. I am the authority on my religion. Not you.

Go believe what you want. I have never tried to tear down anyone else's religion. But you and people like 8-ball have nothing better to do with your time other than try to misrepresent my church.

Can't we just agree to disagree? I'm not interested in debate.

Your TIME and RESPONSE is moot....unless it is grounded in the truth of God's revealed word. You are wasting your time as well as mine in even attempting to address the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE presented by Book, Chapter, and Verse by DEFLECTING with your "feel good" Subjective Rhetoric. If I wanted to simply "feel good" or be entertained there are far better escapes from reality than addressing your ad hominem diatribe.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Very nice example of ad hominem emotionalism based upon personal bigotry. That sure is the way to establish an example of worshiping in Spirit and Truth. Can you spell D E F L E C T I O N............due to the inability to present any OBJECTIVE scriptural conformation of your SUBJECTIVE FAITH? You folks....have simply overwhelmed me, with empirical evidential presentations. As Apostles, Angels, Messengers.....to your god ( 2 Cor. 4:4).

I took a good amount of time to respond to everything you brought up. I exposed that you not only misquoted scriptures far out of context but sometimes didn't even quote the right scripture. I took all of your points and highlighted them red. then I posted the answer to all of them. Since then, you haven't addressed a single one of my answers. That is why you are overmatched. You and 8 ball just love repeating yourselves.

You don't understand the point of this thread. I am clarifying misconceptions about what we believe. I'm not here to prove anyone wrong. I just want people to get the straight dope on what we believe. If you disagree, I won't try to sway you. But if you attack my church saying we believe things that we really don't, then I need to answer those attacks.

I get that you don't agree with my religion. More power to you. But don't try to misrepresent my religion. I am the authority on my religion. Not you.

Go believe what you want. I have never tried to tear down anyone else's religion. But you and people like 8-ball have nothing better to do with your time other than try to misrepresent my church.

Can't we just agree to disagree? I'm not interested in debate.

Your TIME and RESPONSE is moot....unless it is grounded in the truth of God's revealed word. You are wasting your time as well as mine in even attempting to address the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE presented by Book, Chapter, and Verse by DEFLECTING with your "feel good" Subjective Rhetoric. If I wanted to simply "feel good" or be entertained there are far better escapes from reality than addressing your ad hominem diatribe.

Where are your responses to the statements made? Talk about me deflecting.... How come you ignored my responses to your posts. It's like you have no ears. You must not be reading my posts. I would like you to read them. You know the ones where I put your statements in red and mine below them. Everything you just said and brought up since then has already been dealt with on this thread. Stop repeating yourself. Instead, quote my words and rebut them if you have to. But I don't think you have the capacity to do it. You probably didn't even read the last sentence I just wrote. Probly just skipped right over it.

 

[Ralph]

I took a good amount of time to respond to everything you brought up. I exposed that you not only misquoted scriptures far out of context but sometimes didn't even quote the right scripture. I took all of your points and highlighted them red. then I posted the answer to all of them. Since then, you haven't addressed a single one of my answers. That is why you are overmatched. You and 8 ball just love repeating yourselves.

You don't understand the point of this thread. I am clarifying misconceptions about what we believe. I'm not here to prove anyone wrong. I just want people to get the straight dope on what we believe. If you disagree, I won't try to sway you. But if you attack my church saying we believe things that we really don't, then I need to answer those attacks.

I get that you don't agree with my religion. More power to you. But don't try to misrepresent my religion. I am the authority on my religion. Not you.

Go believe what you want. I have never tried to tear down anyone else's religion. But you and people like 8-ball have nothing better to do with your time other than try to misrepresent my church.

Can't we just agree to disagree? I'm not interested in debate.

Your TIME and RESPONSE is moot....unless it is grounded in the truth of God's revealed word. You are wasting your time as well as mine in even attempting to address the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE presented by Book, Chapter, and Verse by DEFLECTING with your "feel good" Subjective Rhetoric. If I wanted to simply "feel good" or be entertained there are far better escapes from reality than addressing your ad hominem diatribe.

Where are your responses to the statements made? Talk about me deflecting.... How come you ignored my responses to your posts. It's like you have no ears. You must not be reading my posts. I would like you to read them. You know the ones where I put your statements in red and mine below them. Everything you just said and brought up since then has already been dealt with on this thread. Stop repeating yourself. Instead, quote my words and rebut them if you have to. But I don't think you have the capacity to do it. You probably didn't even read the last sentence I just wrote. Probly just skipped right over it.

You CONFUSE....non response with deflecting.

"Your" responses are not worthy of retort simply because they are based upon nothing but your subjective opinion void of any response whatsoever that would negate the objective evidence provided by book, chapter and verse clearly debunking your supposed faith as the false ideology that it is. As I said, if I wanted entertained or falsely informed about the LOVE that our creator has for us, I would tune into any number of like minded grifters that populate the Sunday morning air ways that cherry pick a single passage of scripture and go about ENLIGHTENING us of their private interpretation of how this single passage subjectively effects their daily lives, falsely telling us "God loves YOU...but, SEND YOUR MONEY TO OUR ADDRESS."

Until such time as you actually want to DEBATE the ACTUAL content of the Holy Scriptures as compared to the subjective ad hominem rhetoric that you continue to propagate......I find nothing worth responding to. If I wanted to argue with a fool that continues to circumnavigate in ever expanding circles of deflection I could prompt any number of web sites that are visited by secular politicians that speak from either side of their face.

Simply inform me when you have any real response to the information provided. Until such time....I will not engage in the pretension of having any kind of intelligent dialogue with someone that has yet to present the first reference to any objective and demonstrable evidence that supports his position.

"Like the legs of the lame that hang limp is a proverb in the mouth of fools. Like one who binds a stone in a sling is he who gives honor to a fool. Like a thorn that goes into the hand of a drunkard is a proverb in the mouth of a fool." -- Proverbs 26:7-9.

In circular arguments...such as you are attempting to bait someone into engaging....a person shows that certain "IDEAS" lead to a conclusion, but only in the subjective opinion gestated between their ears. They have already accepted the false premise as a fact...and now attempt to persuade others of its truth...without offering any demonstrable evidence. To prove his/her point HE only assumes the conclusion to be true then uses this assumption to prove something else.......a faith constructed on SAND as its foundation, and waste of time in engaging.

If this circular reasoning does not work.....next we are exposed to an EMOTIONAL APPEAL, attempting to reach a persons heart instead of his intellect. The very reason we are asked to PRAY about a subject that has already been proven false by Demonstrable, Empirical, Objective TEXT of the Holy Scriptures of God.

True Christianity is not based upon emotionalism. Emotions are a BENEFIT of our faith....NOT the source to our faith, as our faith comes from ONE SOURCE, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the WORD OF GOD." -- Romans 10:17. Why attempt to place the plow in front of the mule? Simple....it far easier to deceive the emotional that are void of any cognition to logic in their thought process.

False doctrine is easily presented in a very emotional mannerism.....who's very purpose is intended to MAKE someone FEEL GOOD....or as your cohort retorted.......LIFT someone UP...by any means possible. When such lifting is preformed IT IS but temporary and fleeting because it is not grounded in the truth of God's word...when trouble comes, this GOOD feeling is quickly replaced by the rejection of God entirely. You hear it all the time......If there were truly a God in Heaven...why did HE take my child, spouse, loved one...etc.

The Holy Spirit of Truth warned us of such Doctrine, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have ITCHING EARS, they will heap up for themselves TEACHERS; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables (or as I like to call it....unprovable subjectivity of the human mind)" -- 2 Tim 3:3-4 Or as SpongeBob said, "I M I G I N A T I O N".

I do not PLAY nor PRETEND to be a CHRISTIAN........I build my faith on the Objective and TESTABLE faith that is gestated in the Word of God. And I have no problem whatsoever when I am queried as to the faith that rests in my heart -- 1 Peter 3:15 I simply go to the source, and demonstrate where MY FAITH is grounded....and its most certainly not based upon the quicksand of emotionalism....but Demonstrable TRUTH.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Overmatched? It's not a competition. They arent my enemies. Im not trying to out do them. They arent your enemies. Your zeal is good, but zeal without charity can be more damaging than good. Joseph said:

"If I esteem mankind to be in error shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst."

This isnt a competition. We are supposed to be lifting people up not putting them down.

Look Avatar, you and I are on the same page. But these guys are clearly nothing more than left field hecklers. I'm not even trying to prove them wrong in their own beliefs. All I do is fight off the incessant attacks of erroneous slanders against my church.

When I say they are overmatched it's not in a sense of me versus them. It's in their assault on our religion's doctrine and history. Here is the microcosm of a discussion between the likes of an 8-Ball and myself or even you:

8-Ball: You Mormons don't believe in the real Jesus. You believe Adam is God. You are racist against Blacks. You believe in blood atonement.Joseph was not a martyr. Joseph was a felon. Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You believe God(who would effectively be Adam) had sex with Mary and produced Jesus.

Truthspeaker: The above statements are indisputably, unchangeably, maliciously, despicable falsehoods.

Where upon you or I will go into great detail and show direct quotes from scripture or church History etc, how those statements are false.

Whereupon 8 ball will mindlessly repeat the same thing again.

Whereupon 8-Ball will try to debate points of doctrine to try and prove us wrong. Here's how the next bit of conversation will go.

8-Ball/Ralph: Your works based religion, leave it to Beaver, the american flag, and apple pie will not save you but send you to hell.

Truthspeaker/Avatar: We don't believe in works alone. By the way we don't preach that any tv show, citizenship, or dessert item on the menu will save you. by the way. It's fine if you want to believe whatever religion you want. Just let us have ours. We let you have yours.


Cut copy and paste this dialogue over and over again. So from now on, for the likes of 8-Ball and Ralphy. I ask you again. Which questions of yours have I deflected?

1 at a time please. We are not getting anywhere with exchanging wordy answers.

 

[Ralph]

Anywhoo. I see Ralph was completely overmatched and is another 8-Ball. Perhaps they are both the same guy trying to appear more often in the thread. How come the same questions keep coming up even though all the answers have been given. Only one person could be so unreceptive to answers: The 8-Ball.

Overmatched? It's not a competition. They arent my enemies. Im not trying to out do them. They arent your enemies. Your zeal is good, but zeal without charity can be more damaging than good. Joseph said:

"If I esteem mankind to be in error shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. Do you believe in Jesus Christ and the Gospel of salvation which he revealed? So do I. Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship in their midst."

This isnt a competition. We are supposed to be lifting people up not putting them down.

Look Avatar, you and I are on the same page. But these guys are clearly nothing more than left field hecklers. I'm not even trying to prove them wrong in their own beliefs. All I do is fight off the incessant attacks of erroneous slanders against my church.

When I say they are overmatched it's not in a sense of me versus them. It's in their assault on our religion's doctrine and history. Here is the microcosm of a discussion between the likes of an 8-Ball and myself or even you:

8-Ball: You Mormons don't believe in the real Jesus. You believe Adam is God. You are racist against Blacks. You believe in blood atonement.Joseph was not a martyr. Joseph was a felon. Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You believe God(who would effectively be Adam) had sex with Mary and produced Jesus.

Truthspeaker: The above statements are indisputably, unchangeably, maliciously, despicable falsehoods.

Where upon you or I will go into great detail and show direct quotes from scripture or church History etc, how those statements are false.

Whereupon 8 ball will mindlessly repeat the same thing again.

Whereupon 8-Ball will try to debate points of doctrine to try and prove us wrong. Here's how the next bit of conversation will go.

8-Ball/Ralph: Your works based religion, leave it to Beaver, the american flag, and apple pie will not save you but send you to hell.

Truthspeaker/Avatar: We don't believe in works alone. By the way we don't preach that any tv show, citizenship, or dessert item on the menu will save you. by the way. It's fine if you want to believe whatever religion you want. Just let us have ours. We let you have yours.


Cut copy and paste this dialogue over and over again. So from now on, for the likes of 8-Ball and Ralphy. I ask you again. Which questions of yours have I deflected?

1 at a time please. We are not getting anywhere with exchanging wordy answers.

My O my......judging from all the use of the CARTOONS of expression, you still are presenting nothing but ad hominem Deflection. My work is done.........You nor your cohorts have answered any questions....presented any answers.....nor sustained your faith as gestating in the word of God. It becomes most difficult to talk in circles when the truth CORNERS YOU....no? Later....fake dude. Your frustration level is showing like granny's slip.

If you could.....you would.....you can't so you ain't. ABLE TO RESPOND to THE SIMPLE TRUTH.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Overmatched? It's not a competition. They arent my enemies. Im not trying to out do them. They arent your enemies. Your zeal is good, but zeal without charity can be more damaging than good. Joseph said:



This isnt a competition. We are supposed to be lifting people up not putting them down.

Look Avatar, you and I are on the same page. But these guys are clearly nothing more than left field hecklers. I'm not even trying to prove them wrong in their own beliefs. All I do is fight off the incessant attacks of erroneous slanders against my church.

When I say they are overmatched it's not in a sense of me versus them. It's in their assault on our religion's doctrine and history. Here is the microcosm of a discussion between the likes of an 8-Ball and myself or even you:

8-Ball: You Mormons don't believe in the real Jesus. You believe Adam is God. You are racist against Blacks. You believe in blood atonement.Joseph was not a martyr. Joseph was a felon. Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You believe God(who would effectively be Adam) had sex with Mary and produced Jesus.

Truthspeaker: The above statements are indisputably, unchangeably, maliciously, despicable falsehoods.

Where upon you or I will go into great detail and show direct quotes from scripture or church History etc, how those statements are false.

Whereupon 8 ball will mindlessly repeat the same thing again.

Whereupon 8-Ball will try to debate points of doctrine to try and prove us wrong. Here's how the next bit of conversation will go.

8-Ball/Ralph: Your works based religion, leave it to Beaver, the american flag, and apple pie will not save you but send you to hell.

Truthspeaker/Avatar: We don't believe in works alone. By the way we don't preach that any tv show, citizenship, or dessert item on the menu will save you. by the way. It's fine if you want to believe whatever religion you want. Just let us have ours. We let you have yours.


Cut copy and paste this dialogue over and over again. So from now on, for the likes of 8-Ball and Ralphy. I ask you again. Which questions of yours have I deflected?

1 at a time please. We are not getting anywhere with exchanging wordy answers.

My O my......judging from all the use of the CARTOONS of expression, you still are presenting nothing but ad hominem Deflection. My work is done.........You nor your cohorts have answered any questions....presented any answers.....nor sustained your faith as gestating in the word of God. It becomes most difficult to talk in circles when the truth CORNERS YOU....no? Later....fake dude. Your frustration level is showing like granny's slip.

If you could.....you would.....you can't so you ain't. ABLE TO RESPOND to THE SIMPLE TRUTH.

Like I said, what questions didn't I answer?