The Truth about Mormons

[Ralph]

Look Avatar, you and I are on the same page. But these guys are clearly nothing more than left field hecklers. I'm not even trying to prove them wrong in their own beliefs. All I do is fight off the incessant attacks of erroneous slanders against my church.

When I say they are overmatched it's not in a sense of me versus them. It's in their assault on our religion's doctrine and history. Here is the microcosm of a discussion between the likes of an 8-Ball and myself or even you:

8-Ball: You Mormons don't believe in the real Jesus. You believe Adam is God. You are racist against Blacks. You believe in blood atonement.Joseph was not a martyr. Joseph was a felon. Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You believe God(who would effectively be Adam) had sex with Mary and produced Jesus.

Truthspeaker: The above statements are indisputably, unchangeably, maliciously, despicable falsehoods.

Where upon you or I will go into great detail and show direct quotes from scripture or church History etc, how those statements are false.

Whereupon 8 ball will mindlessly repeat the same thing again.

Whereupon 8-Ball will try to debate points of doctrine to try and prove us wrong. Here's how the next bit of conversation will go.

8-Ball/Ralph: Your works based religion, leave it to Beaver, the american flag, and apple pie will not save you but send you to hell.

Truthspeaker/Avatar: We don't believe in works alone. By the way we don't preach that any tv show, citizenship, or dessert item on the menu will save you. by the way. It's fine if you want to believe whatever religion you want. Just let us have ours. We let you have yours.


Cut copy and paste this dialogue over and over again. So from now on, for the likes of 8-Ball and Ralphy. I ask you again. Which questions of yours have I deflected?

1 at a time please. We are not getting anywhere with exchanging wordy answers.

My O my......judging from all the use of the CARTOONS of expression, you still are presenting nothing but ad hominem Deflection. My work is done.........You nor your cohorts have answered any questions....presented any answers.....nor sustained your faith as gestating in the word of God. It becomes most difficult to talk in circles when the truth CORNERS YOU....no? Later....fake dude. Your frustration level is showing like granny's slip.

If you could.....you would.....you can't so you ain't. ABLE TO RESPOND to THE SIMPLE TRUTH.

Like I said, what questions didn't I answer?

Ahh....none? You have subjectively opined your brains out....answering any questions that stand up to the truth....0. You might as well troll another thread...as I have witnessed there are no debates to be had on this one...in any OBJECTIVE fashion. Thus....I shall waste my time no longer casting pearls. I am always open to enlightenment or edification. As the scriptures declare, "Come.....let us reason together." When the reason is presented along a one way street its time to CHANGE DIRECTIONS...NO?

 

[Truthspeaker]

My O my......judging from all the use of the CARTOONS of expression, you still are presenting nothing but ad hominem Deflection. My work is done.........You nor your cohorts have answered any questions....presented any answers.....nor sustained your faith as gestating in the word of God. It becomes most difficult to talk in circles when the truth CORNERS YOU....no? Later....fake dude. Your frustration level is showing like granny's slip.

If you could.....you would.....you can't so you ain't. ABLE TO RESPOND to THE SIMPLE TRUTH.

Like I said, what questions didn't I answer?

Ahh....none? You have subjectively opined your brains out....answering any questions that stand up to the truth....0. You might as well troll another thread...as I have witnessed there are no debates to be had on this one...in any OBJECTIVE fashion. Thus....I shall waste my time no longer casting pearls. I am always open to enlightenment or edification. As the scriptures declare, "Come.....let us reason together." When the reason is presented along a one way street its time to CHANGE DIRECTIONS...NO?

Ok, so then let us reason together one question at a time. Where would you like to start? Where do you think I err most prominently?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Also for those who label my responses subjective or ad hominem even after I cite chapter, verse, date and fact, it is incumbent upon that person to demostrate my subjectiveness or ad hominemality.

Simply stating adolescently that I am such without substance of your own is irresponsible.

 

[Buster Beez]

Mormons are damned for their idol worshipping of the invisible plates. Hell awaits you.

 

[Ralph]

Also for those who label my responses subjective or ad hominem even after I cite chapter, verse, date and fact, it is incumbent upon that person to demostrate my subjectiveness or ad hominemality.

Simply stating adolescently that I am such without substance of your own is irresponsible.

You are YET to offer ONE passage of scripture that declares...IN OBJECTIVE CONTEXT, (void of YOUR subjective private interpretation).....that PROVES or supports any of YOUR SUBJECTIVE opinions. Anyone can cherry pick passages and take them away from their contextual message of declaration........YOUR "MO" is to PICK A SINGLE passage and write a 450 word narrative attempting to manipulate your false premise of opinion into empirical truth....and build upon that false "beginning", declaring your assumption as truth worthy to build faith. When it is pointed out that several other passages of scripture directly contradict your false premise.........you offer the CHRISTS words as paramount to other words of scripture when its very obvious that ALL scripture, regardless of who presents them come from the same source...........GOD. As they are all inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth who was commissioned by the Christ to lead them into ALL TRUTH (2 Tim. 3:16, John 16:13), and one must consider the "SUM" (total) of God's words to establish a law...or truth that is everlasting -- Ps. 119:160

An OBJECTIVE CONTEXT would be a clear undeniable construction of words found in the Holy Scriptures. A SUBJECTIVE context would be someone OPINING about what that passage represents with nothing RECORDED in that clear message to support that ASSUMPTION. For instance, your cohort......made TWO, very easily proven FALSE....SUBJECTIVE (private interpretation) declarations concerning his attempted defense of having an angel reveal more TRUTH after ALL TRUTH had been delivered ONCE in the first century (Jude 3). First he subjectively opined in a false assumption of premise that the LAST days of mankind were not inclusive to the 1st century...but must be directed at a point of time in the future.....implying that date to be 1900 years latter. But this false premise is easily debunked by SCRIPTURE. Acts 2:17 makes it quite clear....the last days or the last age of mankind began on the day of Pentecost in the 1st century. Another false premise based upon SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION would be declaring as TRUTH the assumption that any angel mentioned in the book of Rev. is making reference to the angel that delivered the supposed NEW REVELATION to JOE SMITH in the 1830s........when the OBJECTIVE CONTEXT clearly defines the Book of REV to be addressed to the 7 churches of Asia in the late 1st century or early 2nd century (Rev. 1:4).....not to JOE SMITH 1900 years later, as these symbolic revelations (Rev. 1:1) where to SHORTLY come to pass. Thus, NONE OF THE OBJECTIVE (clearly demonstrable) passages support YOUR FALSE doctrine..........UNLESS, "YOU" offer and INJECT the SUBJECTIVITY of YOUR PRIVATE interpretation to them. When such a method of interpretation is directly forbidden by Scripture ( 2 Peter 1:19-21). This simply means that no prophecy of scripture that is revealed by God can mean one thing to one person and something different to another. All Scripture, thus.........should be rightly divided, by studying in a method that would have no one passage of scriptures presented by the same Holy Spirit of Truth....contradict or negate another passage of scripture. (2 Tim 3:15). If such is happening........the word of TRUTH is not rightly divided, because TRUTH does not contradict ITSELF.


Example....ONCE again, SHOW ME the passages that support your false doctrine that MEN will become GODS...and provide the context of the subject matter these passages where addressing, before you plucked them from the comfort thereof. You and your cohort have presented numerous WORDS OF OPINION...but no scriptural conformation of what you subjectively opine about. You pick a passage and declare this is what it means.....When the scriptural way to define a Biblical concept is to find all the passages of scriptures that contain that particular subject matter and CONSIDER THE SUM/TOTAL before attempting to establish one passage as a blanket truth. The very method used by the Christ when He defeated Satan during His days in the wilderness.......When Satan attempted to use a single verse to support His false premise the Christ declared, "....it is ALSO WRITTEN..."

Have you even attempted to study the scriptures in a "hermenetuic" fashion......considering ALL the words of context (every iota, every tittle as the Christ declares, Matthew 5:7).....before attempting to mold it around your indoctrinated reasoning?

 

[Wize Owl]

Mormons are like the little retarded kid of the christian family. You just hope that they're happy in their retarded world and can shit on their own.

 

[Eightball]

Mormons are like the little retarded kid of the christian family. You just hope that they're happy in their retarded world and can shit on their own.

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

 

[Ralph]

Mormons are like the little retarded kid of the christian family. You just hope that they're happy in their retarded world and can shit on their own.

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

The scriptures are very clear in their admonishment.....do not GO BEYOND what is written.

Respect for the 'Silence' of God's will is COMMANDED....as demonstrated with the warning at the end of Revelations (Rev. 22:18-21). Don't go beyond what is written -- 1 Cor. 4:6 The secret things.....NOT revealed, belong TO GOD...not man, to SUBJECTIVELY and falsely define the will of God, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, but what is revealed belongs TO US, and OUR CHILDREN for ever...the faithful, so that we might do the works of the LAW -- Deut. 29:29.

Just what is beyond the written and revealed word? It is ALL THINGS not said or declared by God. We are commanded to stay within the bounds of God's teachings -- 2 John 9. If it is not written in the Holy Scriptures.....just how are we to know with any OBJECTIVE proof that what is being presented as God's revelation are indeed God's revelations? Such revelation is always confirmed by signs and wonders that are worthy of a true prophet of God. (John 20:31-32, Hebrews 2:1-4, Mark 16:20).....these signs and wonders where not only witnessed by believers but by enemies of the Gospel, they did not require the FAITH of someone to confirm the word that was spoken, nor did you ever hear an Apostle of Christ declare....come back tomorrow, I sense a non- believer in the room...the Entire book of Acts is filled with the miraculous signs preformed by the Apostles and those they blessed by the laying on of hands. And no where is there any doubt that what was witnessed by either a believer or non-believer that a miracle had taken place....as the signs were accepted by both believer and non-believer alike. Not like the FAKE miracles that are presented as proof. Does anyone really doubt that if anyone had been raised from the dead after being buried, or any MIRACLE would take place.....this NEWS would not be confirmed world wide, in this day and age of instant communication?

The reason we are commanded not to go beyond what is written? Because NO ONE knows the mind of God....except the Spirit of God, if indeed it is the Spirit of God giving new revelation, such will always be confirmed by God and there will be NO DOUBT...nor any possibility of contradiction to previous revealed truths by the same spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-11, states very clearly that Only God knows what is in the mind of God.

No one can PRESUME to know what God has not revealed. In our.....the Christians speech we are commanded to speak as if they were the words of God (The Oracles or prophesies of God), -- 1 Peter 4:11, and today...the only way to confirm that we are speaking the words of God, would be to go to the source. Thus the constant reference to Book, Chapter, and Verse to prove where these references came from..........NOT MY WILL....NOT MY OPINION.....but the revealed word of God.

If the book of Mormon is true........then does not the Holy Spirit of God contradict His own divine revelations of the past? If we need more revelation, 1900 years after these statements were made? "All scripture is inspired of God.......and makes the Man of God PERFECT/Complete (in the original Greek, the same Greek word used in..."when that which is PERFECT/complete comes" in 1 Cor. 13) and THROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Or, "....has given us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness...." -- 2 Peter 1:3

If we are capable of being made COMPLETE or PERFECT ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) by the New Testament and the Old Testament, and already (in the 1st century) have everything provided that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS...........tell us just one more time, WHY the BOOK of MORMON was revealed almost 2000 years after mankind had obtained these things through the knowledge of the revealed word. And do so in OBJECTIVE, DEMONSTRABLE, CONTEXTUALLY CORRECT......passages of BOOK, Chapter, and Verse, from God's revealed word, which was in its entirety INSPIRED (the breath of God in the original Greek) by GOD.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

 

[Eightball]

Mormons are like the little retarded kid of the christian family. You just hope that they're happy in their retarded world and can shit on their own.

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

The scriptures are very clear in their admonishment.....do not GO BEYOND what is written.

Respect for the 'Silence' of God's will is COMMANDED....as demonstrated with the warning at the end of Revelations (Rev. 22:18-21). Don't go beyond what is written -- 1 Cor. 4:6 The secret things.....NOT revealed, belong TO GOD...not man, to SUBJECTIVELY and falsely define the will of God, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, but what is revealed belongs TO US, and OUR CHILDREN for ever...the faithful, so that we might do the works of the LAW -- Deut. 29:29.

Just what is beyond the written and revealed word? It is ALL THINGS not said or declared by God. We are commanded to stay within the bounds of God's teachings -- 2 John 9. If it is not written in the Holy Scriptures.....just how are we to know with any OBJECTIVE proof that what is being presented as God's revelation are indeed God's revelations? Such revelation is always confirmed by signs and wonders that are worthy of a true prophet of God. (John 20:31-32, Hebrews 2:1-4, Mark 16:20).....these signs and wonders where not only witnessed by believers but by enemies of the Gospel, they did not require the FAITH of someone to confirm the word that was spoken, nor did you ever hear an Apostle of Christ declare....come back tomorrow, I sense a non- believer in the room...the Entire book of Acts is filled with the miraculous signs preformed by the Apostles and those they blessed by the laying on of hands. And no where is there any doubt that what was witnessed by either a believer or non-believer that a miracle had taken place....as the signs were accepted by both believer and non-believer alike. Not like the FAKE miracles that are presented as proof. Does anyone really doubt that if anyone had been raised from the dead after being buried, or any MIRACLE would take place.....this NEWS would not be confirmed world wide, in this day and age of instant communication?

The reason we are commanded not to go beyond what is written? Because NO ONE knows the mind of God....except the Spirit of God, if indeed it is the Spirit of God giving new revelation, such will always be confirmed by God and there will be NO DOUBT...nor any possibility of contradiction to previous revealed truths by the same spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-11, states very clearly that Only God knows what is in the mind of God.

No one can PRESUME to know what God has not revealed. In our.....the Christians speech we are commanded to speak as if they were the words of God (The Oracles or prophesies of God), -- 1 Peter 4:11, and today...the only way to confirm that we are speaking the words of God, would be to go to the source. Thus the constant reference to Book, Chapter, and Verse to prove where these references came from..........NOT MY WILL....NOT MY OPINION.....but the revealed word of God.

If the book of Mormon is true........then does not the Holy Spirit of God contradict His own divine revelations of the past? If we need more revelation, 1900 years after these statements were made? "All scripture is inspired of God.......and makes the Man of God PERFECT/Complete (in the original Greek, the same Greek word used in..."when that which is PERFECT/complete comes" in 1 Cor. 13) and THROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Or, "....has given us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness...." -- 2 Peter 1:3

If we are capable of being made COMPLETE or PERFECT ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) by the New Testament and the Old Testament, and already (in the 1st century) have everything provided that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS...........tell us just one more time, WHY the BOOK of MORMON was revealed almost 2000 years after mankind had obtained these things through the knowledge of the revealed word. And do so in OBJECTIVE, DEMONSTRABLE, CONTEXTUALLY CORRECT......passages of BOOK, Chapter, and Verse, from God's revealed word, which was in its entirety INSPIRED (the breath of God in the original Greek) by GOD.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

Ralph, this post makes such plain, common sense.

I am also waiting for our resident Mormon experts to answer your very concise, well-researched post.

The Mormons, though they say that the Holy Bible is corrupted by man over time, still use it's scripture to confront Christians, and prove their doctrine to non-Christians.

As you mentioned, they use the bible in a "piece meal" way, pulling verses out of context, and when truly confronted with their convoluted beliefs, fall back on the "subjective" rather than the "objective" to defend their beliefs.

I've quoted to these two outspoken Mormons on this thread Romans 10:17, so many times, yet I've yet to get a response or defense based on that quoted verse from Paul's letter to the early Christian church in Rome.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word(scripture/bible) of God."

I get all kinds of deflective responses, such as: "I just know I'm right, cause the holy spirit has confirmed to me that LDS/Mormonism is the truth, or the true church.".

As you/Ralph have mentioned, faith is based on evidences, and the Holy Spirit is intended to confirm through the "Word".

The Mormons push the emotional or subjective as the sole means of confirming that their church is is true. As you and I know, that is very unstable ground, and is likened to building one's faith upon a foundation of "sand". Emotions/feelings are a wonderful God-endowed attribute of humanity, that was/is intended to enhance our lives, but not to be the "COMPASS" of decision-making.

To say, "I just know I'm right." is to totally cut-off or ignore one's God-given mind, and will, in the mix.

Satan goes about the earth like a roaring lion, devouring those of humanity that let their guards down. Mormonism's premise for existence is built upon the idea that what ever comes to one's dreams, or visions, or gut feeling/thoughts' must be "of God".

Add to that mix that Satan will inject a nice little dream that often includes a potential Mormon's relative or deceased loved one confirming that "Mormonism is the Truth!", and you have the ingredients for potential deception of the nth degree.

The most unscriptural move by these door to door missionarys is when they encourage folks to "pray, and ask God if Mormonism is the truth?". No where in the bible are Christians suppose to ask God if witchcraft, sorcery, occult, polygamy, Aaronic Priesthoods, etc are the truth. The Christian has been given the bible, that has been omnipotently protected by the Omnipotent God who authored it through inspiring men/women.

That's another bugaboo, that Mormons on this thread will not face with objectivity. How can they say that the bible is corrupted by man, yet agree that God is omnipotent? To say that God is omnipotent is to "agree" that God can easily protect His inspired Word since it's inception. Yet, when the LDS/Mormon says that Moroni & J.S. jr. and company restored the corrupted message of God to mankind, they are overtly saying that God is weak, and anemic, and can't keep track of His creation nor His messages to mankind. What will it be, LDS/Mormons? Why restore what your omnipotent God kept complete care of?

Also, they/TruthSkpr Pooh's my mentioned of Mormon Blood Attonement, yet this teaching I believe started by Brigham Young flies in the face of Jesus' work on the cross. Either Jesus took all sins and paid for all sins, or again we have a very absentminded god, authored by the LDS/Mormon church.

Man, indeed will pay the price of for sin as what goes around, comes around in life, in most cases. Even when we apologize, often our transgressions cause a domino affect and hurt others in ways that can't be mended. Never the less, God forgives us through the total attonement of Christ work on the cross.

I've yet to receive any solid answers based on God's Word by these two Mormon spokesmen on this thread. I've been told that I am a manufacturer of slander and lies, yet that's all they say. They don't tell me or the board how or why they are lies. The fall back on Mormon historian based facts to defend their premises, yet Mormon historians have a natural and obvious bias to enhance their system of belief.

I've brought up inductive and deductive reasoning, and I know these two Mormons are intelligent people, but they breeze over this most important subject that is instrumental in true, bonafide investigational processes.

I've been called a Mormon hater, and many other things.

Truthspeaker? I've often wondered and have asked you why you picked that moniker for an online name. IMO, it exudes pride, and a total lake of humility, and is the antithesis of what Jesus and the Apostles revealed as the true "abider" in Christ.

I could never perceive or picture any true Christian who was abiding in God, who would want to brandy-about that name/title for their belief system. God levels the playing field, and humbles man to the point of hopeful repentance, which is a condition of humility and transparency of the soul. The true Christian counts his words carefully, and he/she realizes that tongue can set a "forest aflame"
metaphorically speaking.

It is one thing to be proud to be a "Christ one", and to be totally "honored" that God reached down from heaven and even considered us. It's another thing to tell through one's moniker that "we have arrived at the truth", and are here take the role of Moromon/bible answerman.

 

[Ralph]

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

The scriptures are very clear in their admonishment.....do not GO BEYOND what is written.

Respect for the 'Silence' of God's will is COMMANDED....as demonstrated with the warning at the end of Revelations (Rev. 22:18-21). Don't go beyond what is written -- 1 Cor. 4:6 The secret things.....NOT revealed, belong TO GOD...not man, to SUBJECTIVELY and falsely define the will of God, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, but what is revealed belongs TO US, and OUR CHILDREN for ever...the faithful, so that we might do the works of the LAW -- Deut. 29:29.

Just what is beyond the written and revealed word? It is ALL THINGS not said or declared by God. We are commanded to stay within the bounds of God's teachings -- 2 John 9. If it is not written in the Holy Scriptures.....just how are we to know with any OBJECTIVE proof that what is being presented as God's revelation are indeed God's revelations? Such revelation is always confirmed by signs and wonders that are worthy of a true prophet of God. (John 20:31-32, Hebrews 2:1-4, Mark 16:20).....these signs and wonders where not only witnessed by believers but by enemies of the Gospel, they did not require the FAITH of someone to confirm the word that was spoken, nor did you ever hear an Apostle of Christ declare....come back tomorrow, I sense a non- believer in the room...the Entire book of Acts is filled with the miraculous signs preformed by the Apostles and those they blessed by the laying on of hands. And no where is there any doubt that what was witnessed by either a believer or non-believer that a miracle had taken place....as the signs were accepted by both believer and non-believer alike. Not like the FAKE miracles that are presented as proof. Does anyone really doubt that if anyone had been raised from the dead after being buried, or any MIRACLE would take place.....this NEWS would not be confirmed world wide, in this day and age of instant communication?

The reason we are commanded not to go beyond what is written? Because NO ONE knows the mind of God....except the Spirit of God, if indeed it is the Spirit of God giving new revelation, such will always be confirmed by God and there will be NO DOUBT...nor any possibility of contradiction to previous revealed truths by the same spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-11, states very clearly that Only God knows what is in the mind of God.

No one can PRESUME to know what God has not revealed. In our.....the Christians speech we are commanded to speak as if they were the words of God (The Oracles or prophesies of God), -- 1 Peter 4:11, and today...the only way to confirm that we are speaking the words of God, would be to go to the source. Thus the constant reference to Book, Chapter, and Verse to prove where these references came from..........NOT MY WILL....NOT MY OPINION.....but the revealed word of God.

If the book of Mormon is true........then does not the Holy Spirit of God contradict His own divine revelations of the past? If we need more revelation, 1900 years after these statements were made? "All scripture is inspired of God.......and makes the Man of God PERFECT/Complete (in the original Greek, the same Greek word used in..."when that which is PERFECT/complete comes" in 1 Cor. 13) and THROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Or, "....has given us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness...." -- 2 Peter 1:3

If we are capable of being made COMPLETE or PERFECT ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) by the New Testament and the Old Testament, and already (in the 1st century) have everything provided that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS...........tell us just one more time, WHY the BOOK of MORMON was revealed almost 2000 years after mankind had obtained these things through the knowledge of the revealed word. And do so in OBJECTIVE, DEMONSTRABLE, CONTEXTUALLY CORRECT......passages of BOOK, Chapter, and Verse, from God's revealed word, which was in its entirety INSPIRED (the breath of God in the original Greek) by GOD.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

Ralph, this post makes such plain, common sense.

I am also waiting for our resident Mormon experts to answer your very concise, well-researched post.

The Mormons, though they say that the Holy Bible is corrupted by man over time, still use it's scripture to confront Christians, and prove their doctrine to non-Christians.

As you mentioned, they use the bible in a "piece meal" way, pulling verses out of context, and when truly confronted with their convoluted beliefs, fall back on the "subjective" rather than the "objective" to defend their beliefs.

I've quoted to these two outspoken Mormons on this thread Romans 10:17, so many times, yet I've yet to get a response or defense based on that quoted verse from Paul's letter to the early Christian church in Rome.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word(scripture/bible) of God."

I get all kinds of deflective responses, such as: "I just know I'm right, cause the holy spirit has confirmed to me that LDS/Mormonism is the truth, or the true church.".

As you/Ralph have mentioned, faith is based on evidences, and the Holy Spirit is intended to confirm through the "Word".

The Mormons push the emotional or subjective as the sole means of confirming that their church is is true. As you and I know, that is very unstable ground, and is likened to building one's faith upon a foundation of "sand". Emotions/feelings are a wonderful God-endowed attribute of humanity, that was/is intended to enhance our lives, but not to be the "COMPASS" of decision-making.

To say, "I just know I'm right." is to totally cut-off or ignore one's God-given mind, and will, in the mix.

Satan goes about the earth like a roaring lion, devouring those of humanity that let their guards down. Mormonism's premise for existence is built upon the idea that what ever comes to one's dreams, or visions, or gut feeling/thoughts' must be "of God".

Add to that mix that Satan will inject a nice little dream that often includes a potential Mormon's relative or deceased loved one confirming that "Mormonism is the Truth!", and you have the ingredients for potential deception of the nth degree.

The most unscriptural move by these door to door missionarys is when they encourage folks to "pray, and ask God if Mormonism is the truth?". No where in the bible are Christians suppose to ask God if witchcraft, sorcery, occult, polygamy, Aaronic Priesthoods, etc are the truth. The Christian has been given the bible, that has been omnipotently protected by the Omnipotent God who authored it through inspiring men/women.

That's another bugaboo, that Mormons on this thread will not face with objectivity. How can they say that the bible is corrupted by man, yet agree that God is omnipotent? To say that God is omnipotent is to "agree" that God can easily protect His inspired Word since it's inception. Yet, when the LDS/Mormon says that Moroni & J.S. jr. and company restored the corrupted message of God to mankind, they are overtly saying that God is weak, and anemic, and can't keep track of His creation nor His messages to mankind. What will it be, LDS/Mormons? Why restore what your omnipotent God kept complete care of?

Also, they/TruthSkpr Pooh's my mentioned of Mormon Blood Attonement, yet this teaching I believe started by Brigham Young flies in the face of Jesus' work on the cross. Either Jesus took all sins and paid for all sins, or again we have a very absentminded god, authored by the LDS/Mormon church.

Man, indeed will pay the price of for sin as what goes around, comes around in life, in most cases. Even when we apologize, often our transgressions cause a domino affect and hurt others in ways that can't be mended. Never the less, God forgives us through the total attonement of Christ work on the cross.

I've yet to receive any solid answers based on God's Word by these two Mormon spokesmen on this thread. I've been told that I am a manufacturer of slander and lies, yet that's all they say. They don't tell me or the board how or why they are lies. The fall back on Mormon historian based facts to defend their premises, yet Mormon historians have a natural and obvious bias to enhance their system of belief.

I've brought up inductive and deductive reasoning, and I know these two Mormons are intelligent people, but they breeze over this most important subject that is instrumental in true, bonafide investigational processes.

I've been called a Mormon hater, and many other things.

Truthspeaker? I've often wondered and have asked you why you picked that moniker for an online name. IMO, it exudes pride, and a total lake of humility, and is the antithesis of what Jesus and the Apostles revealed as the true "abider" in Christ.

I could never perceive or picture any true Christian who was abiding in God, who would want to brandy-about that name/title for their belief system. God levels the playing field, and humbles man to the point of hopeful repentance, which is a condition of humility and transparency of the soul. The true Christian counts his words carefully, and he/she realizes that tongue can set a "forest aflame"
metaphorically speaking.

It is one thing to be proud to be a "Christ one", and to be totally "honored" that God reached down from heaven and even considered us. It's another thing to tell through one's moniker that "we have arrived at the truth", and are here take the role of Moromon/bible answerman.

Indeed....if God LIED to us when He declared and VOWED that His word would never see corruption and would be used until the end of time ( 1 Peter 1:23-25, Matthew 24:35, Ps. 119:160, Ps. 12:6-7). Just how do they justify their beliefs based upon nothing but Subjective Emotionalism.......how do they know they are not being lied to? If the Holy Scriptures are defined by them as being CORRUPT.....while they cannot find contradiction of pure Physical Science or History Actual within its pages....Just how is the Book of Mormon declared incorruptible by them......when there are many Falsehoods and Errors proven to exist therein? Indeed, one must demonstrate extreme faith to BELIEVE a proven lie. It must indeed take a lot of praying, when your eyes demonstrate one thing....but you have been indoctrinated to ignore the obvious and believe YOUR HEART. But, did not the Apostle Paul believe that he was doing the will of God when he hunted down the believers of Jesus and persecuted them....even leading to the death of some? Thus...one can not always trust his/her heart.

Paul was present at the death of Stephen, and he simply stood there encouraging the mob in the murder of this righteous man. -- Acts 7:57:8:1. Yet, He felt in his heart that he was doing the will of God....his actions were based upon what he felt...not what was correct. Paul was one of the leaders in the persecution of the early church, where he was responsible for many going to prison and even the death of some -- Acts 8:3. Yet....just as we are called out from among the world by the WORD, when we begin to believe the things we read (because they are sustained by factual history..etc, .....Paul was called out from the world by the Word/Jesus...who sought out Paul, and Paul was given salvation because HE FOUND THE TRUTH...and that truth was not what HE FELT it was -- 1 Tim. 1:12-15

I realize that none of the mistakes made by Paul will be considered by those that propagate the Mormon faith, as they have already decided to throw away the truth presented in the New Testament in favor of a man made ideology.....because it feels right....and because it CONTRADICTS their position....so obviously, we are expected to accept them at their word....Clearly they are greater than the Apostles ever where. But, I do hope they understand that I simply cannot share in their delusion, as I still base my faith upon the cognition to logic and reason instead of emotions that are often misleading. I do have emotions in a demonstration of my faith...hope, joy, and fulfillment.......but I do not have faith because of these emotions, these emotions are a product of my faith, NOT THE foundation thereof. As I accept the command, "One must worship in Spirit......AND "TRUTH", to enter the kingdom of God." -- John 4:24. I simply cannot convince MY SELF to believe a lie....as indeed, the only one that can keep you from entering that kingdom....IS YOU, as that kingdom rests in the heart of each individual Christian -- Luke 17:20-21.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mormons are damned for their idol worshipping of the invisible plates. Hell awaits you.

We don't worship any object. but if you think we are going to hell, that's your opinion. I won't argue with you about it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Also for those who label my responses subjective or ad hominem even after I cite chapter, verse, date and fact, it is incumbent upon that person to demostrate my subjectiveness or ad hominemality.

Simply stating adolescently that I am such without substance of your own is irresponsible.

You are YET to offer ONE passage of scripture that declares...IN OBJECTIVE CONTEXT, (void of YOUR subjective private interpretation).....that PROVES or supports any of YOUR SUBJECTIVE opinions. Anyone can cherry pick passages and take them away from their contextual message of declaration........YOUR "MO" is to PICK A SINGLE passage and write a 450 word narrative attempting to manipulate your false premise of opinion into empirical truth....and build upon that false "beginning", declaring your assumption as truth worthy to build faith. When it is pointed out that several other passages of scripture directly contradict your false premise.........you offer the CHRISTS words as paramount to other words of scripture when its very obvious that ALL scripture, regardless of who presents them come from the same source...........GOD. As they are all inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth who was commissioned by the Christ to lead them into ALL TRUTH (2 Tim. 3:16, John 16:13), and one must consider the "SUM" (total) of God's words to establish a law...or truth that is everlasting -- Ps. 119:160

An OBJECTIVE CONTEXT would be a clear undeniable construction of words found in the Holy Scriptures. A SUBJECTIVE context would be someone OPINING about what that passage represents with nothing RECORDED in that clear message to support that ASSUMPTION. For instance, your cohort......made TWO, very easily proven FALSE....SUBJECTIVE (private interpretation) declarations concerning his attempted defense of having an angel reveal more TRUTH after ALL TRUTH had been delivered ONCE in the first century (Jude 3). First he subjectively opined in a false assumption of premise that the LAST days of mankind were not inclusive to the 1st century...but must be directed at a point of time in the future.....implying that date to be 1900 years latter. But this false premise is easily debunked by SCRIPTURE. Acts 2:17 makes it quite clear....the last days or the last age of mankind began on the day of Pentecost in the 1st century. Another false premise based upon SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION would be declaring as TRUTH the assumption that any angel mentioned in the book of Rev. is making reference to the angel that delivered the supposed NEW REVELATION to JOE SMITH in the 1830s........when the OBJECTIVE CONTEXT clearly defines the Book of REV to be addressed to the 7 churches of Asia in the late 1st century or early 2nd century (Rev. 1:4).....not to JOE SMITH 1900 years later, as these symbolic revelations (Rev. 1:1) where to SHORTLY come to pass. Thus, NONE OF THE OBJECTIVE (clearly demonstrable) passages support YOUR FALSE doctrine..........UNLESS, "YOU" offer and INJECT the SUBJECTIVITY of YOUR PRIVATE interpretation to them. When such a method of interpretation is directly forbidden by Scripture ( 2 Peter 1:19-21). This simply means that no prophecy of scripture that is revealed by God can mean one thing to one person and something different to another. All Scripture, thus.........should be rightly divided, by studying in a method that would have no one passage of scriptures presented by the same Holy Spirit of Truth....contradict or negate another passage of scripture. (2 Tim 3:15). If such is happening........the word of TRUTH is not rightly divided, because TRUTH does not contradict ITSELF.


Example....ONCE again, SHOW ME the passages that support your false doctrine that MEN will become GODS...and provide the context of the subject matter these passages where addressing, before you plucked them from the comfort thereof. You and your cohort have presented numerous WORDS OF OPINION...but no scriptural conformation of what you subjectively opine about. You pick a passage and declare this is what it means.....When the scriptural way to define a Biblical concept is to find all the passages of scriptures that contain that particular subject matter and CONSIDER THE SUM/TOTAL before attempting to establish one passage as a blanket truth. The very method used by the Christ when He defeated Satan during His days in the wilderness.......When Satan attempted to use a single verse to support His false premise the Christ declared, "....it is ALSO WRITTEN..."

Have you even attempted to study the scriptures in a "hermenetuic" fashion......considering ALL the words of context (every iota, every tittle as the Christ declares, Matthew 5:7).....before attempting to mold it around your indoctrinated reasoning?

You really don't want me to quote scriptures because just like you accuse me of, you have your own interpretation which I disagree with. You can wrest the scriptures to mean whatever you like. But like I have said from the beginning. I am not here to debate my religion as being better than yours. I just want people to know what it is that we actually believe.

First of all, we accept many more books than the Bible as scripture. So when you say "All scripture is inspired of God." I agree with you. But you are not considering there is more scripture.

With one Bible there are thousands of christian churches each with their own interpretations that contradict each other.

I'm not going to perpetuate an argument that puts my view of the Bible over yours. It is pointless because I read the Book of Mormon also. I believe in modern revelation.

We can argue till doomsday over Biblical interpretations. You might ask where my authority comes from in a sneering sort of way. I would challenge your authority. But this gets us nowhere.

Contention is of the devil. If you would really like to reason with me and learn more about my church then you will gain something from our discussions.

If all you want to do is try and debunk my religion, you are wasting your time. I have proven my religion to myself and that's all that matters.

I have not tried to debunk your religion because I would rather focus my attention on my own beliefs that make me happy. I don't care if you think you won an argument against me. Go on with your own beliefs. More power to you. I just don't understand people who waste their time trying to tear down the beliefs of a people who are firm in their faith in Christ.

So what do you want from me?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mormons are like the little retarded kid of the christian family. You just hope that they're happy in their retarded world and can shit on their own.

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

Wow 8-Ball. I'm impressed. Are you trying to actually be respectful to us now? If so. Much Kudos.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Mormons are like the little retarded kid of the christian family. You just hope that they're happy in their retarded world and can shit on their own.

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

The scriptures are very clear in their admonishment.....do not GO BEYOND what is written.

Respect for the 'Silence' of God's will is COMMANDED....as demonstrated with the warning at the end of Revelations (Rev. 22:18-21). Don't go beyond what is written -- 1 Cor. 4:6 The secret things.....NOT revealed, belong TO GOD...not man, to SUBJECTIVELY and falsely define the will of God, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, but what is revealed belongs TO US, and OUR CHILDREN for ever...the faithful, so that we might do the works of the LAW -- Deut. 29:29.

Just what is beyond the written and revealed word? It is ALL THINGS not said or declared by God. We are commanded to stay within the bounds of God's teachings -- 2 John 9. If it is not written in the Holy Scriptures.....just how are we to know with any OBJECTIVE proof that what is being presented as God's revelation are indeed God's revelations? Such revelation is always confirmed by signs and wonders that are worthy of a true prophet of God. (John 20:31-32, Hebrews 2:1-4, Mark 16:20).....these signs and wonders where not only witnessed by believers but by enemies of the Gospel, they did not require the FAITH of someone to confirm the word that was spoken, nor did you ever hear an Apostle of Christ declare....come back tomorrow, I sense a non- believer in the room...the Entire book of Acts is filled with the miraculous signs preformed by the Apostles and those they blessed by the laying on of hands. And no where is there any doubt that what was witnessed by either a believer or non-believer that a miracle had taken place....as the signs were accepted by both believer and non-believer alike. Not like the FAKE miracles that are presented as proof. Does anyone really doubt that if anyone had been raised from the dead after being buried, or any MIRACLE would take place.....this NEWS would not be confirmed world wide, in this day and age of instant communication?

The reason we are commanded not to go beyond what is written? Because NO ONE knows the mind of God....except the Spirit of God, if indeed it is the Spirit of God giving new revelation, such will always be confirmed by God and there will be NO DOUBT...nor any possibility of contradiction to previous revealed truths by the same spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-11, states very clearly that Only God knows what is in the mind of God.

No one can PRESUME to know what God has not revealed. In our.....the Christians speech we are commanded to speak as if they were the words of God (The Oracles or prophesies of God), -- 1 Peter 4:11, and today...the only way to confirm that we are speaking the words of God, would be to go to the source. Thus the constant reference to Book, Chapter, and Verse to prove where these references came from..........NOT MY WILL....NOT MY OPINION.....but the revealed word of God.

If the book of Mormon is true........then does not the Holy Spirit of God contradict His own divine revelations of the past? If we need more revelation, 1900 years after these statements were made? "All scripture is inspired of God.......and makes the Man of God PERFECT/Complete (in the original Greek, the same Greek word used in..."when that which is PERFECT/complete comes" in 1 Cor. 13) and THROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Or, "....has given us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness...." -- 2 Peter 1:3

If we are capable of being made COMPLETE or PERFECT ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) by the New Testament and the Old Testament, and already (in the 1st century) have everything provided that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS...........tell us just one more time, WHY the BOOK of MORMON was revealed almost 2000 years after mankind had obtained these things through the knowledge of the revealed word. And do so in OBJECTIVE, DEMONSTRABLE, CONTEXTUALLY CORRECT......passages of BOOK, Chapter, and Verse, from God's revealed word, which was in its entirety INSPIRED (the breath of God in the original Greek) by GOD.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

It seems like all you are trying to do is prove the Book of Mormon wrong. I understand you don't believe in it because of your view of the Bible. We don't have the same view. We believe the Bible does not condemn other scripture like the Book of Mormon. I think every halfway serious student of the Bible realizes that it was not chronologically written in order. Intelligent scholars know that the last chronologically written book is the book of John. Interestingly enough the last verse reads thus: John chapter 21 verse 25

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

That would be very interesting if the Bible were put in chronological order. Leaving the reader anxious for more of the actions of Jesus. If there were more of the doings of Jesus life available, wouldn't you want to know about them? We have found some more of those doings.

Disagree all you like but this is our view of the scriptures. You can view them however you want but this is how we understand them. Please don't take this as an attack. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Hey, I'm not Mormon, and don't agree one bit with their anti-biblical doctrine, but your post adds nothing to this thread.

It reeks of disrespect towards the LDS/Mormons, and that's not what this discussion is about.

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

The scriptures are very clear in their admonishment.....do not GO BEYOND what is written.

Respect for the 'Silence' of God's will is COMMANDED....as demonstrated with the warning at the end of Revelations (Rev. 22:18-21). Don't go beyond what is written -- 1 Cor. 4:6 The secret things.....NOT revealed, belong TO GOD...not man, to SUBJECTIVELY and falsely define the will of God, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, but what is revealed belongs TO US, and OUR CHILDREN for ever...the faithful, so that we might do the works of the LAW -- Deut. 29:29.

Just what is beyond the written and revealed word? It is ALL THINGS not said or declared by God. We are commanded to stay within the bounds of God's teachings -- 2 John 9. If it is not written in the Holy Scriptures.....just how are we to know with any OBJECTIVE proof that what is being presented as God's revelation are indeed God's revelations? Such revelation is always confirmed by signs and wonders that are worthy of a true prophet of God. (John 20:31-32, Hebrews 2:1-4, Mark 16:20).....these signs and wonders where not only witnessed by believers but by enemies of the Gospel, they did not require the FAITH of someone to confirm the word that was spoken, nor did you ever hear an Apostle of Christ declare....come back tomorrow, I sense a non- believer in the room...the Entire book of Acts is filled with the miraculous signs preformed by the Apostles and those they blessed by the laying on of hands. And no where is there any doubt that what was witnessed by either a believer or non-believer that a miracle had taken place....as the signs were accepted by both believer and non-believer alike. Not like the FAKE miracles that are presented as proof. Does anyone really doubt that if anyone had been raised from the dead after being buried, or any MIRACLE would take place.....this NEWS would not be confirmed world wide, in this day and age of instant communication?

The reason we are commanded not to go beyond what is written? Because NO ONE knows the mind of God....except the Spirit of God, if indeed it is the Spirit of God giving new revelation, such will always be confirmed by God and there will be NO DOUBT...nor any possibility of contradiction to previous revealed truths by the same spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-11, states very clearly that Only God knows what is in the mind of God.

No one can PRESUME to know what God has not revealed. In our.....the Christians speech we are commanded to speak as if they were the words of God (The Oracles or prophesies of God), -- 1 Peter 4:11, and today...the only way to confirm that we are speaking the words of God, would be to go to the source. Thus the constant reference to Book, Chapter, and Verse to prove where these references came from..........NOT MY WILL....NOT MY OPINION.....but the revealed word of God.

If the book of Mormon is true........then does not the Holy Spirit of God contradict His own divine revelations of the past? If we need more revelation, 1900 years after these statements were made? "All scripture is inspired of God.......and makes the Man of God PERFECT/Complete (in the original Greek, the same Greek word used in..."when that which is PERFECT/complete comes" in 1 Cor. 13) and THROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Or, "....has given us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness...." -- 2 Peter 1:3

If we are capable of being made COMPLETE or PERFECT ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) by the New Testament and the Old Testament, and already (in the 1st century) have everything provided that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS...........tell us just one more time, WHY the BOOK of MORMON was revealed almost 2000 years after mankind had obtained these things through the knowledge of the revealed word. And do so in OBJECTIVE, DEMONSTRABLE, CONTEXTUALLY CORRECT......passages of BOOK, Chapter, and Verse, from God's revealed word, which was in its entirety INSPIRED (the breath of God in the original Greek) by GOD.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

Ralph, this post makes such plain, common sense.

I am also waiting for our resident Mormon experts to answer your very concise, well-researched post.

The Mormons, though they say that the Holy Bible is corrupted by man over time, still use it's scripture to confront Christians, and prove their doctrine to non-Christians.

As you mentioned, they use the bible in a "piece meal" way, pulling verses out of context, and when truly confronted with their convoluted beliefs, fall back on the "subjective" rather than the "objective" to defend their beliefs.

I've quoted to these two outspoken Mormons on this thread Romans 10:17, so many times, yet I've yet to get a response or defense based on that quoted verse from Paul's letter to the early Christian church in Rome.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word(scripture/bible) of God."

I get all kinds of deflective responses, such as: "I just know I'm right, cause the holy spirit has confirmed to me that LDS/Mormonism is the truth, or the true church.".

As you/Ralph have mentioned, faith is based on evidences, and the Holy Spirit is intended to confirm through the "Word".

The Mormons push the emotional or subjective as the sole means of confirming that their church is is true. As you and I know, that is very unstable ground, and is likened to building one's faith upon a foundation of "sand". Emotions/feelings are a wonderful God-endowed attribute of humanity, that was/is intended to enhance our lives, but not to be the "COMPASS" of decision-making.

To say, "I just know I'm right." is to totally cut-off or ignore one's God-given mind, and will, in the mix.

Satan goes about the earth like a roaring lion, devouring those of humanity that let their guards down. Mormonism's premise for existence is built upon the idea that what ever comes to one's dreams, or visions, or gut feeling/thoughts' must be "of God".

Add to that mix that Satan will inject a nice little dream that often includes a potential Mormon's relative or deceased loved one confirming that "Mormonism is the Truth!", and you have the ingredients for potential deception of the nth degree.

The most unscriptural move by these door to door missionarys is when they encourage folks to "pray, and ask God if Mormonism is the truth?". No where in the bible are Christians suppose to ask God if witchcraft, sorcery, occult, polygamy, Aaronic Priesthoods, etc are the truth. The Christian has been given the bible, that has been omnipotently protected by the Omnipotent God who authored it through inspiring men/women.

That's another bugaboo, that Mormons on this thread will not face with objectivity. How can they say that the bible is corrupted by man, yet agree that God is omnipotent? To say that God is omnipotent is to "agree" that God can easily protect His inspired Word since it's inception. Yet, when the LDS/Mormon says that Moroni & J.S. jr. and company restored the corrupted message of God to mankind, they are overtly saying that God is weak, and anemic, and can't keep track of His creation nor His messages to mankind. What will it be, LDS/Mormons? Why restore what your omnipotent God kept complete care of?

Also, they/TruthSkpr Pooh's my mentioned of Mormon Blood Attonement, yet this teaching I believe started by Brigham Young flies in the face of Jesus' work on the cross. Either Jesus took all sins and paid for all sins, or again we have a very absentminded god, authored by the LDS/Mormon church.

Man, indeed will pay the price of for sin as what goes around, comes around in life, in most cases. Even when we apologize, often our transgressions cause a domino affect and hurt others in ways that can't be mended. Never the less, God forgives us through the total attonement of Christ work on the cross.

I've yet to receive any solid answers based on God's Word by these two Mormon spokesmen on this thread. I've been told that I am a manufacturer of slander and lies, yet that's all they say. They don't tell me or the board how or why they are lies. The fall back on Mormon historian based facts to defend their premises, yet Mormon historians have a natural and obvious bias to enhance their system of belief.

I've brought up inductive and deductive reasoning, and I know these two Mormons are intelligent people, but they breeze over this most important subject that is instrumental in true, bonafide investigational processes.

I've been called a Mormon hater, and many other things.

Truthspeaker? I've often wondered and have asked you why you picked that moniker for an online name. IMO, it exudes pride, and a total lake of humility, and is the antithesis of what Jesus and the Apostles revealed as the true "abider" in Christ.

I could never perceive or picture any true Christian who was abiding in God, who would want to brandy-about that name/title for their belief system. God levels the playing field, and humbles man to the point of hopeful repentance, which is a condition of humility and transparency of the soul. The true Christian counts his words carefully, and he/she realizes that tongue can set a "forest aflame"
metaphorically speaking.

It is one thing to be proud to be a "Christ one", and to be totally "honored" that God reached down from heaven and even considered us. It's another thing to tell through one's moniker that "we have arrived at the truth", and are here take the role of Moromon/bible answerman.

You can think what you want about me but the reason I call myself truthspeaker is because I never tell lies. The other reason is this. There is false information about my church and true information about my church. I will authoritatively tell the truth about what Mormons really believe. And yes I am an elder, so I do know my religion better than you do. I'm sure you know about the history and doctrine of YOUR church better than I do.

You have spoken many falsehoods about our church, saying we believe in things we don't believe in. I have corrected you multiple times citing chapter, verse, historical statements, etc that clarify our actual beliefs. My frustration with you is that you ignore me when I tell you about false statements you are accusing me and all other Mormon's of. I repeat myself endlessly but you just don't listen. so every time I am forced to repeat myself now, I will simply copy and paste from my Word application the responses to your repeated questions. That way I don't have to take the time to write it over and over again.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Common Misconceptions About Mormons:

1. Mormons believe in having lots of wives.
This misconception exists because there were instances of polygamy involving many of our early church leaders. It was a commandment of God at the time for two reasons: First to populate the church. Second to provide protection and providence for women whose husbands were murdered by mobocrats in Ohio, Missouri and Illinois in the early frontiers of the 1830’s and 40s. Just the way Abraham and other biblical figures were justly sanctioned in doing so. The time came to cease polygamy when the United States declared it illegal. Since then God has revealed that we are to obey the laws of the land and that polygamy is to cease for the time being. Members of our church do not practice polygamy. Individuals have decided to leave the church and engage in illegal activities under their own interpretations calling themselves Mormons. These individuals are not sanctioned by our church. Polygamy is grounds for excommunication in the church today.

2. Mormons believe only they are going to heaven.

This misconception exists because people do not understand our doctrine. We believe the pure in heart are the ones who will inherit God’s kingdom. All the rest will work itself out. Church affiliation has little to do with one’s salvation. It is entirely left in the hands of Jesus Christ and his Father.

3. Mormons hate Black people.
This misconception arises out of lack of understanding of our doctrine. I served my mission in South Africa, and so naturally would get this question often. In the book the Pearl of Great price, part of which is a translation from some ancient Egyptian scrolls which came into the hands of Joseph Smith, there is a book called the book of Moses and the book of Abraham. In the book of Abraham, there was described the punishment of Cain for his crimes. He was cut off from the Lord and was cast into a land separate from the other children of Adam. It was then because of Cain’s transgression, the LAND in which he lived was cursed with much heat, which we now know to be the land of Africa. We do believe that original Africans were descended from Cain but don't get twisted into a bundle just yet. Cain and his children then had a "mark" placed upon them to distinguish them from other children of Adam. This mark was described by Brigham Young as the dark skin and flat nose. Still not time to get riled up yet.
The curse was not to be confused with the mark. It is nowhere described that the descendants of Cain were cursed, only marked. In fact this marking was a huge blessing for a couple of reasons. The LAND being cursed with much heat was and still is a very inhospitable place because of the sun exposure. How on earth would they be expected to survive such conditions without God preparing them for their environment. As we all know, dark skin is a built in sunburn defense. And yes I know black people can sunburn too, but certainly not to a fried crisp like if I were to stand out there for 15 minutes. The flat nose was also a blessing. We all know that hunting in Africa is difficult and requires lots of running and stamina if you are going to track and hunt prey in the African wilderness. Hence as we all can see, most of the best and naturally gifted long distance runners and sprinters are Africans, the nose shape playing a huge role in the amount of oxygen they are able to breathe in and out of their nostrils to keep up such a pace. Can white people be trained to run long distance? Of course, but they have to work a little harder to develop the same level of stamina because of the shape of the nose. Starting to make sense?
It gets better. The reason a lot of Mormons and non-Mormons alike confused the skin color of Cain's descendants with a curse is because of an UNRELATED and temporary physical curse placed on the Lamanites to distinguish them from the Nephites and cause that they should not be enticing unto the Nephites during much of the Book of Mormon years. The curse, we read in 3rd Nephi was eventually taken away and had nothing to do with having a flat nose. It is easy to see how this can be misunderstood through lack of study.
Nowhere is it written in our official doctrine that blacks were cursed with dark skin as a result of poor performance in the pre existence. That unfortunately has been misunderstood by too many members and non-Mormons.

Oh I almost forgot to address the priesthood issue. My bad. Yes Cain’s descendants were cursed as to the obtaining the authority of the Priesthood which would allow them to officiate in Church ordinances. This was done in part as a punishment to Cain, not his children, and in part to help fulfill the prophecy that the first should be last and the last should be first. Meaning the first people to receive the priesthood and gospel(Jews) would be the last ones to fully accept it, and the last ones to receive the priesthood and gospel(seed of Cain) would be the first to accept and embrace it. That is why 1978 was so important. Joseph Smith foretold back in 1830 that blacks would eventually hold the priesthood before the coming of Christ. It wasn't because they were spiritually unworthy as it was to fulfill the word of the Lord. This is amazing that the huge numbers of blacks in Africa were pleading and praying daily to the leaders of our church to let them receive the missionaries in the 70's, because they knew the gospel was true and understood the prophecies. African membership now is the fastest growing portion of converts among all races. This is a story about a glorious triumph, not a lame argument about racism. They are reaping the glory of this with great happiness in Africa right now and it's only going to get bigger.
Also you might want to bear in mind the wisdom of God in his timing. We all know how racist the country was for a long time up until the civil rights movement. In the early days of the church in the 1830's, part of the hatred for Mormons was that they were branded ****** lovers because they preached against slavery and invited blacks into their congregations. You didn't hear about it very often though because many anti-Mormons conceal this information. With general hostility towards blacks already an undercurrent of society at the time, it would have only brought more vicious attacks against us like church burnings and murders to have ordained black priests and bishops back then.
But if the Lord had given the revelation back then, Joseph Smith wouldn't have hesitated to ordain them. He grieved about the issue and actually pleaded with the Lord to restore them to the priesthood but was told they must wait for the due time of the Lord.

Not everyone gets everything at the same time. This is why many people live their whole lives without ever even hearing the name of Jesus Christ. Is it that the Lord just discriminating against his sons and daughters. NOOO! He knows when the time is right and knows that there is far more to it than just this earthly life. If not so, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and all other non-Christians, including babies who die before learning the gospel, must be condemned to hell. But good thing that is not the case, God is a little more loving and just than that......Whew!
__________________

4. Mormons worship Joseph Smith.
This misconception arises for reasons which I am not sure. Joseph Smith taught us to worship God and Jesus Christ. Joseph is considered a prophet to us. Not a God.

5. Mormons drink blood.
This is a pernicious lie.

6. Mormons believe in personal blood atonement.
This myth arises from some of the words of Brigham Young who once spoke about personal blood atonement in the hypothetical. Some have taken his words out of context and labeled him as having taught this as doctrine for individuals. Brigham young consistently taught that Christ atoned for the sins of man and no one else.

7. Mormons don’t believe the Bible.
Yes we do. However, the Bible has some errors in translation due to careless transcribers and designing and corrupt priests. This problem has led to many different interpretations of the Bible and therefore many different churches. The Book of Mormon and modern prophets have helped us to understand the Bible’s original meaning.

8. Mormons believe works alone will save them.
No we don’t. We believe mankind will be saved by the grace of God, after we put forth our best effort. Our best effort alone is not enough.

9. Mormons don’t believe in Jesus Christ.
The name of our Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. All mankind will be redeemed from physical death by Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. The Saviour of all mankind. I don’t know how better to put it.

10. Mormons believe Adam is God.
This is a falsehood. Adam will one day join God among the council of Gods, but will not take the place of God himself.

11. Brigham Young ordered The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
This is a vicious lie. Brigham Young wept like a child when he heard of the renegade Mormons who perpetrated this act. These were individuals who acted alone and without sanction from the church. They were excommunicated and pursued by the law.

12. Mormons hate Gay People.
This is not true. The reason people think this is because we were encouraged to vote Yes on Prop 8 in California. We do not condone sinful activities and therefore cannot in good conscience support any sinful act. Everyone is welcome in our church. We all have temptations to overcome. Some have temptations with homosexual attractions. Through Jesus Christ, all temptation can be conquered.

 

[Avatar4321]

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

Is this really the best you have? This is the most damning declaration you have against Mormonism? Then I feel very confident that the Spirit is leading me correctly. Because this verse cannot be interpretted to end new revelation from heaven. And This is for the following reasons:

1) The verse is refering to the Book of Revelation. Not the Bible. The Bible was not compiled till centuries later. There was no "Bible" at this time. John was not writing the final book in the Bible. He was writing a book independent of any others which was later compiled into a collection of books of scripture and later placed at the end since it refers to the end of days.

2) If we are to believe your own interpretation of this verse, the Apostle John has condemned himself since he wrote His Gospel and Epistles afterwards. He also condemned Jude.

3) If your interpretation is valid, it must be equally applied to exact same warning provided in Deuteronomy 4:2. That would mean that every single solitary person who wrote in the Bible after Moses is condemned to hell. Including the Lord Jesus Christ who shared New Revelation and commandments in the Meridian of time. It would also apply to the verse in proverbs with a similiar result.

4) The most compelling reason your interpretation of this verse to condemn The Church of Jesus Christ is ironically, one of the parts of the verse you emphasized by capitalizing it. The scripture puts a prohibition to man to add or remove anything. It says absolutely nothing about God ceasing to reveal His will to His Servants. It does not prevent God from adding or deleting anything.

God can say whatever the heck He pleases. He can command and revoke commands at His will. And you cant limit it simply because you misinterpret clear passages. So the question remains, how do we know what God says? And the answer is clear: The Holy Spirit. We go to God to ask of Him and He reveals it to us.

Are you honestly going to claim that revelation and prophecy have ceased?

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

So because you dont see the angel named specifically in the passage, you refuse to investigate it this was the actual angel prophecied to come? The Lord said He would send an angel carrying the Everlasting Gospel to the world. If it's not Moroni, it must be some other angel. Yet you reject the minstering of angels. You tell us God cant reveal anything to us anymore. So why is God telling us He is going to reveal His Gospel to us in the last days???

The scriptures are very clear in their admonishment.....do not GO BEYOND what is written.

How on earth do you get this? The scriptures are clearly stating the opposite. The scriptures teach us that we should ask so we can recieve. We should seek so we can find. We should knock so it can be given to us. The Lord promised those who ask in faith wisdom. He has told us we can recieve all truth through the power of the Holy Ghost. We are told that the few scriptures we have are nothing but the milk before the meat. That we cant even begin to contain all the teachings and acts of Christ.

The scriptures are teaching us to go to God and learn from Him.

Respect for the 'Silence' of God's will is COMMANDED....as demonstrated with the warning at the end of Revelations (Rev. 22:18-21). Don't go beyond what is written -- 1 Cor. 4:6 The secret things.....NOT revealed, belong TO GOD...not man, to SUBJECTIVELY and falsely define the will of God, WITHOUT AUTHORITY, but what is revealed belongs TO US, and OUR CHILDREN for ever...the faithful, so that we might do the works of the LAW -- Deut. 29:29.

But God is not silent. That is the whole point of the New Testament. God speaks to man. The fact that God is not speaking to you tells me something is very very very very very wrong in your relationship with God. The fact is you cant have a relationship with someone you don't know. You have to talk with Him and learn from Him if you can be saved. because you cant be saved without revelation.

And no matter how many scriptures you take out of context, you arent going to be able to silence God.

Just what is beyond the written and revealed word? It is ALL THINGS not said or declared by God. We are commanded to stay within the bounds of God's teachings -- 2 John 9. If it is not written in the Holy Scriptures.....just how are we to know with any OBJECTIVE proof that what is being presented as God's revelation are indeed God's revelations?

The same way the saints knew what Gods teachings were when teh Apostles taught them: The Holy Spirit told them.

Of course, this requires you trust God more than yourself.

Such revelation is always confirmed by signs and wonders that are worthy of a true prophet of God. (John 20:31-32, Hebrews 2:1-4, Mark 16:20).....these signs and wonders where not only witnessed by believers but by enemies of the Gospel, they did not require the FAITH of someone to confirm the word that was spoken, nor did you ever hear an Apostle of Christ declare....come back tomorrow, I sense a non- believer in the room...the Entire book of Acts is filled with the miraculous signs preformed by the Apostles and those they blessed by the laying on of hands. And no where is there any doubt that what was witnessed by either a believer or non-believer that a miracle had taken place....as the signs were accepted by both believer and non-believer alike. Not like the FAKE miracles that are presented as proof. Does anyone really doubt that if anyone had been raised from the dead after being buried, or any MIRACLE would take place.....this NEWS would not be confirmed world wide, in this day and age of instant communication?

Fake miracles? The only difference between the miracles of the Bible and the miracles nowadays is you believe in one and say the other is impossible. It reminds me alot of Christ's warnings to the Pharisees:

27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Matthew: 23:27-39)

Christ is there ready to teach you. He calls you still. He will teach you by the power of His Holy Ghost. He will reveal to you things that have never before been revealed if you just come to Him and cease denying the gifts of God.

The reason we are commanded not to go beyond what is written? Because NO ONE knows the mind of God....except the Spirit of God, if indeed it is the Spirit of God giving new revelation, such will always be confirmed by God and there will be NO DOUBT...nor any possibility of contradiction to previous revealed truths by the same spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-11, states very clearly that Only God knows what is in the mind of God.

There is no doubt when the Spirit speaks. You would know that if you had heard the voice of the Spirit. When the whispers of the Spirit come no doubt remains. Which is exactly why I can tell you that I know the Bible is true. Which is why I can tell you I know the Book of Mormon is true. Which is why I can tell you that I know Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And why I can tell you that I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. Because when the Spirit spoke to me, all doubt was taken away.

No one can PRESUME to know what God has not revealed.

No one is. We are telling you quite the opposite. We are telling you exactly what God has revealed to us and inviting you to God to the Lord to learn for yourself.

In our.....the Christians speech we are commanded to speak as if they were the words of God (The Oracles or prophesies of God), -- 1 Peter 4:11, and today...the only way to confirm that we are speaking the words of God, would be to go to the source. Thus the constant reference to Book, Chapter, and Verse to prove where these references came from..........NOT MY WILL....NOT MY OPINION.....but the revealed word of God.

The source isnt the Bible. The Bible is just a record of what the source said. The Source is God Himself. We go to the source which is the Lord Almighty and you say we are condemned because we dont try to intepret the revelations of the past according to our own knowledge and understanding. It makes absolutely no sense.

If the book of Mormon is true........then does not the Holy Spirit of God contradict His own divine revelations of the past? If we need more revelation, 1900 years after these statements were made? "All scripture is inspired of God.......and makes the Man of God PERFECT/Complete (in the original Greek, the same Greek word used in..."when that which is PERFECT/complete comes" in 1 Cor. 13) and THROUGHLY EQUIPPED for EVERY GOOD WORK." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Or, "....has given us ALL THINGS that pertain unto life and godliness...." -- 2 Peter 1:3

The Holy Spirit hasnt contradicted anything. You keep quoting Timothy as if it somehow proves your point. The Book of Mormon is scripture. The verse you quote in Timothy Encompasses all scripture. It encompasses all scripture we have now and all that will be revealed in the future.

And we are given all things that pertain unto life and godliness when we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost. But when you deny that gift. When you deny the power of the Revelator. When you deny the gifts He gives because of your lack of faith, you are not included in the "us" because you are in a state of rebellion against God. Have you repented and been baptized? Have you recieved the Laying on of hands, Then you dont have all things that pertain unto life and godliness.

The Bible is pointing you somewhere. All scripture is. But its useless unless you actually go to God and let Him take you where it's pointing.

If we are capable of being made COMPLETE or PERFECT ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) by the New Testament and the Old Testament, and already (in the 1st century) have everything provided that pertains to LIFE and GODLINESS...........tell us just one more time, WHY the BOOK of MORMON was revealed almost 2000 years after mankind had obtained these things through the knowledge of the revealed word. And do so in OBJECTIVE, DEMONSTRABLE, CONTEXTUALLY CORRECT......passages of BOOK, Chapter, and Verse, from God's revealed word, which was in its entirety INSPIRED (the breath of God in the original Greek) by GOD.

Because arent made perfect by the Old and New Testament. We are made perfect through Jesus Christ. and God has given us more records to learn about the Savior, about our Fallen condition, about the Atonement. And quite frankly, if God wants to reveal some new truth about Jesus Christ, I am going to listen to Him. Because Christ is the Word of God. And while you have the right to do what you want, I am not going to tell God what He can and cant do.

The Book of Mormon was revealed to prove to both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Savior of the world. The Book of Mormon was revealed to provide a second witness along with the Bible that Jesus lives for our stiffnecked and unbelieving generation. The Book of Mormon was revealed to show the children of men that God remembers His covenants and make His arm bear in the last days to redeem His people from the horrors that are to come.

That is why the Book of Mormon was revealed. That is why there were 12 witnesses called to testify of its power. That is why Elijah came to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers. Its why 12 Apostles were called and given the keys of the Kingdom. It's why men have power to do Gods work in the present as they had in the past.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

If you think the Holy Spirit is subjective opinion, then you really don't know the Spirit. We don't know a fraction of what God has revealed to man.

What Mormonism would have you believe is that you dont have to rely on the witness of anyone else. You can go to God and learn from yourself. What Mormonism would have you believe is that the Lord still gives gifts to His Children. What Mormonism would have you believe is that Jesus Christ lives and loves us. And there is so much more to learn about Him that we need to go to God and learn from Him personally.

I challenge you to read the Book of Mormon for yourself. Dont look to what others have said about it. Not even me. I can promise you if you read it and ask the Lord with real intent and faith, If you ask in humility and with a sincere desire to serve the Lord no matter what the answer, that you will be told by the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. That it's testimony of Christ is true. That He does live. And He does work in the world today. He is not silent. nor will He ever be. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
And when the Spirit speaks to you directly, you will have no doubts. You will have undisputed proof that this is God's work.

I feel impressed to end my post here with the words of Nephi:

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi 33:10-12)

 

[Eightball]

Truthspeaker's Moniker = "I never lie."

1. You've out-done every disciple in the bible.

Oh, by the way, "Hello there, "God"".

Also, if we ever meet in person "Truthspeaker", I hope I'm wearing a asbestos suit to protect me from that big old bolt of lightening from heaven headed downward towards my new acquaintence. "There will be no other god's before Me."

Notice: Other gods has a lower case "g" signifying not diety as the only One God, but of a lesser manmade diety.

 

[Ralph]

The most damning declaration in the Holy Bible in consideration of the supposed NEW revelation from heaven...i.e., the Book of Mormon are the very last passages of Scripture in the Book of Revelations. "For I testify unto EVERY MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If ANY MAN shall ADD unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book............" -- Rev. 22:18-21.

Is this really the best you have? This is the most damning declaration you have against Mormonism? Then I feel very confident that the Spirit is leading me correctly. Because this verse cannot be interpretted to end new revelation from heaven. And This is for the following reasons:

1) The verse is refering to the Book of Revelation. Not the Bible. The Bible was not compiled till centuries later. There was no "Bible" at this time. John was not writing the final book in the Bible. He was writing a book independent of any others which was later compiled into a collection of books of scripture and later placed at the end since it refers to the end of days.

2) If we are to believe your own interpretation of this verse, the Apostle John has condemned himself since he wrote His Gospel and Epistles afterwards. He also condemned Jude.

3) If your interpretation is valid, it must be equally applied to exact same warning provided in Deuteronomy 4:2. That would mean that every single solitary person who wrote in the Bible after Moses is condemned to hell. Including the Lord Jesus Christ who shared New Revelation and commandments in the Meridian of time. It would also apply to the verse in proverbs with a similiar result.

4) The most compelling reason your interpretation of this verse to condemn The Church of Jesus Christ is ironically, one of the parts of the verse you emphasized by capitalizing it. The scripture puts a prohibition to man to add or remove anything. It says absolutely nothing about God ceasing to reveal His will to His Servants. It does not prevent God from adding or deleting anything.

God can say whatever the heck He pleases. He can command and revoke commands at His will. And you cant limit it simply because you misinterpret clear passages. So the question remains, how do we know what God says? And the answer is clear: The Holy Spirit. We go to God to ask of Him and He reveals it to us.

Are you honestly going to claim that revelation and prophecy have ceased?

For instance the Retort offered by the Mormon Doctrine. Post #1593. Directly quoting Rev. 14:6-7......then openly declaring a presumption by ADDING onto WORDS not revealed or written in this book of prophecy...as if they have Authority to ADD UNTO these things. As hard I have looked, I can find no mention of an Angel named "Moroni" being referenced might less OBJECTIVELY declared in the entirety of this book. Yet, the accusation is propagated that "others" are deflecting by not accepting this EXTRA....SUBJECTIVE opinion as truth.

So because you dont see the angel named specifically in the passage, you refuse to investigate it this was the actual angel prophecied to come? The Lord said He would send an angel carrying the Everlasting Gospel to the world. If it's not Moroni, it must be some other angel. Yet you reject the minstering of angels. You tell us God cant reveal anything to us anymore. So why is God telling us He is going to reveal His Gospel to us in the last days???



How on earth do you get this? The scriptures are clearly stating the opposite. The scriptures teach us that we should ask so we can recieve. We should seek so we can find. We should knock so it can be given to us. The Lord promised those who ask in faith wisdom. He has told us we can recieve all truth through the power of the Holy Ghost. We are told that the few scriptures we have are nothing but the milk before the meat. That we cant even begin to contain all the teachings and acts of Christ.

The scriptures are teaching us to go to God and learn from Him.




But God is not silent. That is the whole point of the New Testament. God speaks to man. The fact that God is not speaking to you tells me something is very very very very very wrong in your relationship with God. The fact is you cant have a relationship with someone you don't know. You have to talk with Him and learn from Him if you can be saved. because you cant be saved without revelation.

And no matter how many scriptures you take out of context, you arent going to be able to silence God.




The same way the saints knew what Gods teachings were when teh Apostles taught them: The Holy Spirit told them.

Of course, this requires you trust God more than yourself.




Fake miracles? The only difference between the miracles of the Bible and the miracles nowadays is you believe in one and say the other is impossible. It reminds me alot of Christ's warnings to the Pharisees:



Christ is there ready to teach you. He calls you still. He will teach you by the power of His Holy Ghost. He will reveal to you things that have never before been revealed if you just come to Him and cease denying the gifts of God.



There is no doubt when the Spirit speaks. You would know that if you had heard the voice of the Spirit. When the whispers of the Spirit come no doubt remains. Which is exactly why I can tell you that I know the Bible is true. Which is why I can tell you I know the Book of Mormon is true. Which is why I can tell you that I know Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And why I can tell you that I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. Because when the Spirit spoke to me, all doubt was taken away.




No one is. We are telling you quite the opposite. We are telling you exactly what God has revealed to us and inviting you to God to the Lord to learn for yourself.



The source isnt the Bible. The Bible is just a record of what the source said. The Source is God Himself. We go to the source which is the Lord Almighty and you say we are condemned because we dont try to intepret the revelations of the past according to our own knowledge and understanding. It makes absolutely no sense.



The Holy Spirit hasnt contradicted anything. You keep quoting Timothy as if it somehow proves your point. The Book of Mormon is scripture. The verse you quote in Timothy Encompasses all scripture. It encompasses all scripture we have now and all that will be revealed in the future.

And we are given all things that pertain unto life and godliness when we recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost. But when you deny that gift. When you deny the power of the Revelator. When you deny the gifts He gives because of your lack of faith, you are not included in the "us" because you are in a state of rebellion against God. Have you repented and been baptized? Have you recieved the Laying on of hands, Then you dont have all things that pertain unto life and godliness.

The Bible is pointing you somewhere. All scripture is. But its useless unless you actually go to God and let Him take you where it's pointing.



Because arent made perfect by the Old and New Testament. We are made perfect through Jesus Christ. and God has given us more records to learn about the Savior, about our Fallen condition, about the Atonement. And quite frankly, if God wants to reveal some new truth about Jesus Christ, I am going to listen to Him. Because Christ is the Word of God. And while you have the right to do what you want, I am not going to tell God what He can and cant do.

The Book of Mormon was revealed to prove to both Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, the Savior of the world. The Book of Mormon was revealed to provide a second witness along with the Bible that Jesus lives for our stiffnecked and unbelieving generation. The Book of Mormon was revealed to show the children of men that God remembers His covenants and make His arm bear in the last days to redeem His people from the horrors that are to come.

That is why the Book of Mormon was revealed. That is why there were 12 witnesses called to testify of its power. That is why Elijah came to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers. Its why 12 Apostles were called and given the keys of the Kingdom. It's why men have power to do Gods work in the present as they had in the past.

Mormonism would have us believe the scriptures do not make mention of not going past what is written....again by presenting their SUBJECTIVE OPINION only. Yet, when we reference this subject matter....we find that God has addressed this subject IN DETAIL....as presented. When we consider the SUM/Total thereof.......we have firmly established the TRUTH, as revealed by God.

If you think the Holy Spirit is subjective opinion, then you really don't know the Spirit. We don't know a fraction of what God has revealed to man.

What Mormonism would have you believe is that you dont have to rely on the witness of anyone else. You can go to God and learn from yourself. What Mormonism would have you believe is that the Lord still gives gifts to His Children. What Mormonism would have you believe is that Jesus Christ lives and loves us. And there is so much more to learn about Him that we need to go to God and learn from Him personally.

I challenge you to read the Book of Mormon for yourself. Dont look to what others have said about it. Not even me. I can promise you if you read it and ask the Lord with real intent and faith, If you ask in humility and with a sincere desire to serve the Lord no matter what the answer, that you will be told by the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. That it's testimony of Christ is true. That He does live. And He does work in the world today. He is not silent. nor will He ever be. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
And when the Spirit speaks to you directly, you will have no doubts. You will have undisputed proof that this is God's work.

I feel impressed to end my post here with the words of Nephi:

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. (2 Nephi 33:10-12)

So many words....so much falsehood needing only one passage of truth to debunk, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of OUR COMMON SALVATION, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH..................."THAT WAS (such a little word that holds so much truth and power)............ONCE..............DELIVERED unto the saints." -- Jude 3

Now we hear from a false prophet that denies the truth of such a simple statement. THE FAITH OF CHRISTIANITY was delivered only one time and that FAITH which was ONCE delivered (clearly before the drafting of the passage which was inspired by the Holy Spirit of Truth) should be EARNESTLY CONTENDED or sought after with that FAITH which has been demonstrated by other scripture to be PERFECT/COMPLETE ( 2 Tim. 3-16-17, 1 Cor. 13:10, James 1:25) as recorded in the original Greek.

Clearly this FALSE PROPHET is calling the source that inspired theses passages "The Holy Spirit of Truth" a liar....as he is now informing us that the faith that was ONCE DELIVERED by the SAINTS in the first Century (Jude 3), was not COMPLETE/PERFECT..........1. ) Is not a PERFECT/COMPLETE source of DOCTRINE to have the MAN OF GOD THROUGHLY furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS, that we need MORE than perfect or complete knowledge, WE NEED THE BOOK OF MORMON ( 2 Tim 3:16-17) as HE...the Holy Spirit of Truth....has informed us that

2.) When that which is PERFECT/Complete comes......that which is in part......divine revelation, that was not inspired of EVERYONE....shall cease ( 1 Cor. 13:10). And a list of that which is in part is listed, the gifts of supernatural (Prophecy, Tongues, and Supernatural knowledge)....all shall cease, when the PERFECT/COMPLETE has arrived. But clearly This is in complete contradiction of the false doctrine of Mormonism....they still claim all these SUPERNATURAL GIFTS......but if they were supernatural.....would the product of that Supernatural Prophecy...THE BOOK of MORMON...be filled with errors and lies of both Science and History, and contradictions of the revealed word of truth from the Holy Spirit of Truth?

3.) James, under the same divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit of Truth informs us that we now have the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" in the form of the New Testament of Grace (James 1:25)....with the exact same original Greek word used to indicate that which is PERFECT or COMPLETE....OR made whole is referenced in both authors words (James 1:25, 1 Cor. 13:10)....but clearly

4.) Some wish to call the Holy Spirit of Truth a liar while denying the Command of the Christ Himself to worship in SPIRIT and in "TRUTH" (John 4:24).......and lie to themselves and the world and continue to attempt and PLAY LIKE they are INFANT CHRISTIANS of the kingdom of God still needing the TIT MILK of DIVINE GUIDANCE from the Holy Spirit of TRUTH....and PRETEND to have NEW REVELATIONS from God

But the Inspired Apostle informed us there would come a time when we, the Christian, would be ready for hard truth and MEAT in our diet of divine knowledge because we would be on our own with a COMPLETE REVELATION of GOD in consideration of this KINGDOM...and we were to, STOP acting like Children, "When I was a Child (comparing the infant kingdom/church in its new birth), I understood as a child (needed divine guidance in doctrine, feed to them like a mother allowing a child to nurse on her breast), I thought as a Child, (had not wisdom, because it had not yet been established): but, when I became a Man (the church was given the PERFECT/COMPLETE revelation of God concerning church/kingdom doctrine, no longer requiring to be nursed by our divine parent)..........I PUT AWAY CHILDISH THINGS." -- 1 Cor. 13:11)

No some wish to remain as that child while refusing to mature and take responsibility for his/her own action in this life.......and falsely expect the continued TIT NURSING from our HEAVENLY parent. Just like children...they do not worship in TRUTH, but PRETEND to have some divine gift of the Spirit...which we were directly informed would cease......once that which was PERFECT/COMPLETE came........THE PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY......no, they even pretend to receive more revelation form HEAVEN in pretense that can easily be debunked by the revealed word of God.......Physical Science........and History Actual.

As I said......there comes a time when we must GROW UP, and stop acting like children while pretending to be something that clearly we are not. And use the REMAINING GIFTS of the SPIRIT that help and guide us through this path that we call life........" Faith, Hope, and Charity/love.........with LOVE the greatest of these gifts." -- 1 Cor. 13:13

We shall stand back and simply allow the CHILDREN TO PLAY....at the expense of their souls and the souls of their loved ones. We have attempted to feed them the strong meat of TRUTH, but they cannot digest it.......I fear they shall starve to death......IN SPIRIT as long as refuse to accept the TRUTH that was ONCE DELIVERED to the Saints of the 1st century.


YOURS......as ALWAYS.....in LOVE and HOPE, Ralph

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthspeaker's Moniker = "I never lie."

1. You've out-done every disciple in the bible.

Oh, by the way, "Hello there, "God"".

Also, if we ever meet in person "Truthspeaker", I hope I'm wearing a asbestos suit to protect me from that big old bolt of lightening from heaven headed downward towards my new acquaintence. "There will be no other god's before Me."

Notice: Other gods has a lower case "g" signifying not diety as the only One God, but of a lesser manmade diety.

I applaud you for your first short post ever. C'mon now, I have other imperfections. I just don't lie. That by no means makes me a god. I would have to achieve perfection to do that. Which I am far from. If God wanted me dead, he wouldn't around for you and I to be in the same room.