The Truth about Mormons

[Ceasaro]

1. Ok, so no plates, just like the tablets with the 10 commandments, they don't exist either. I guess Jo figured that no tablets didn't stop people from believing them, so he copied the bible.
Plus, your story doesn't even make any sense because even if he got rid of them, nobody would have believed him and would have probably tortured him to find out where they were.

2. So a) you don't know how many there are in your religion, and b) you're religion is copying the bible again.

3. Again, that barely makes any sense. There's been a super minority of people that have had something extraordinary apparently happen to them. Jo with the plates, moses with the tablets, jesus, mohammed and a few other founders of other religions. So a) god gave different plans to different people to start different religions. b) god really only revealed himself properly to a handful of guys (more like con men). And c) Your religion is just like all the others, you all think you're right and everyone else is wrong. Religion splits everyone up into groups that go at each other constantly. No eternal truth there.

4. That's so lame. He doesn't want everyone to know about him/her? LOL, ya sure. Then why did he send plates and tablets and visions to people so they could spread his/her word? Again, a serious lack of logic.

As for Jo banging minors, he did, end of story. In fact, mormons STILL do it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

1. Ok, so no plates, just like the tablets with the 10 commandments, they don't exist either. I guess Jo figured that no tablets didn't stop people from believing them, so he copied the bible.
Plus, your story doesn't even make any sense because even if he got rid of them, nobody would have believed him and would have probably tortured him to find out where they were.

2. So a) you don't know how many there are in your religion, and b) you're religion is copying the bible again.

3. Again, that barely makes any sense. There's been a super minority of people that have had something extraordinary apparently happen to them. Jo with the plates, moses with the tablets, jesus, mohammed and a few other founders of other religions. So a) god gave different plans to different people to start different religions. b) god really only revealed himself properly to a handful of guys (more like con men). And c) Your religion is just like all the others, you all think you're right and everyone else is wrong. Religion splits everyone up into groups that go at each other constantly. No eternal truth there.

4. That's so lame. He doesn't want everyone to know about him/her? LOL, ya sure. Then why did he send plates and tablets and visions to people so they could spread his/her word? Again, a serious lack of logic.

As for Jo banging minors, he did, end of story. In fact, mormons STILL do it.

I can see there's no convincing you since you seem to have your mind made up. Hey it's a free country and I can totally understand where you are coming from in your opinions. On the surface I would tend to agree with you on a lot of things, if I didn't know better about my church's history.

To state that "Jo" copied the bible is absurd. You obviously have zero understanding about the book of Mormon and have not read a word of it. If you did you would realize it's claim is entirely different from the Bible. It quotes the bible a few times but as for copying it,...like I said, it's absurd.

How many Gods are there in my religion? I do know. There are Three. God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. It's a presidency that is united in organization and purpose. This presidency rules over all others. That's all that matters.

Also I think it's quite funny that you mention people would have tortured Joseph to find the plates if they thought he had them. It's so funny because that very thing happened. He was tarred and feathered after his house was ransacked trying to find the plates. That classifies as torture in my book. His infant also perished in the raid as a result of the cold exposure. He was beaten and his tooth was chipped when one of the mobbers tried to forced a vial of poison down his throat. he kept his teeth closed and the vial chipped his front tooth.
There are at least two such recorded accounts of these raids in search of the plates.

Also, yes we do believe we have the truth. The difference between us and all the others who claim to have the truth? We don't condemn them to hell because we know God is the judge of individuals and not churches. All others claim theirs to be the only way while others go to hell. that is the worst claim I have ever heard. We do not make such a claim because it's God's call and we don't know. In fact we preach that many of our faith will miss out on eternal reward while many more not of our faith will achieve eternal reward.

Did I miss something? Where did I ever say that God didn't want all of us to know about Him? I told you that everyone will get a fair shot whether in this life or the next. This will happen before judgment day.

Ok since YOU are now the self appointed authority on what goes on behind closed doors in Mormon life please answer me these questions? Since you know so much, please tell me what was the legal marriage age back in the 1800's. Also answer me this? Who specifically among us "mormons" is "banging minors" today and which minors? Excommunicated mormons and backwoods self proclaimed mormons who are not on our written church membership records do not count. they are on their own and not sanctioned by the official church but are condemned for practicing illegal activies.

You might also answer what is the legal marriage age in the state of Mississippi?

 

[Ceasaro]

It's not that I have my mind made up, it's that I've always been interested in the why and how someone who appears to have all their marbles chooses to believe a certain religion and their outlandish stories. If I ever find a religion that makes sense, I might consider myself of that religion, but I have not found anything plausible so far in any religion.

Ok, so back to the plates. Your story is getting more convoluted by the chapter: God is the president of all gods. And there's only three. But in the mormon stories, isn't it something like earth is ruled by an alien who was made a god? (I read that in some earlier posts in this thread I believe). So isn't that number 4? And didn't you say that Jo might become a god too?
And Jo was tar and feathered? That's torture? To tell you the truth, it sounds more like he was tarred and feathered by being a charlatan, that's why they did that in those days. Torture is roasting him over and open pit tied to a wagon wheel. Or something like that. Plus he chipped his tooth on a bottle of poison? Man, that's so dumb, I'm surprised you even believe that one. So if he got poison on his lips, he would have died anyways. And a couple of boots to the crotch would have gotten his mouth open.

I know you believe you have the truth, all religions do. Just think for a second, why would god only reveal himself to some scraggly cowboy in the middle of nowhere? Does that even make any sense?

Then if god DOES want everyone to know him, why doesn't he just reveal himself to everyone? Or go on CNN? Why the fuck is he hiding? He think he's Osama bin Laden? Or is ObL god?

Civilized societies have evolved to not marry minors. That Jo married minors only goes to show how much less civilized or un-civilized they were back then.
There are still polygamous mormon communities in at least the US and Canada. To say that they aren't real mormons is pure sophistry. Just like kalam who claims that suicide bombers for jihad aren't real muslims. It's kalam who's not a real muslim.

Mississippi? Probably about 8 years old, but it has to be a family member.

 

[amrchaos]

Before we start comparing testimonies of one instance with testimonies for another, the question of the witnesses reputation must come to the bearing.

For instance, the testimonies of Jesus disciples have an air of disingenuity only in the case that they were followers of Christ. Adoration is the greatest form of delusion, mind you. But in the case of Lincoln, you can find testimonies from people tha did not think highly of Lincoln himself, yet wrote about his assasination.

Also, the question about why god does not present himself to everyone in the world, and just a few individuals is a very poignant question that was brushed away to casually.

Is our all powerful, all knowing "God" yet to figure out that a great miracle every generation is necessary to keep people from questioning his existance? Or is it that "God" only favors a few individuals and only confide in them because the rest of us are not as important or understanding of "Gods" nature. Or maybe the information is not as important as the messanger want us to believe, "God" is just testing the individual, and knowledge of "the truth" is not really important--remember, "god" did create us in ignorance. So why would it be important for you to know something he did not care about informing you during your making?

Or maybe it is this simple--there is no god. The disciples, John Smith and all the prophets of the world, both past and present, are just delusionals that hear, sense, and confess things that occured only in their minds eye.

 

[Truthspeaker]

It's not that I have my mind made up, it's that I've always been interested in the why and how someone who appears to have all their marbles chooses to believe a certain religion and their outlandish stories. If I ever find a religion that makes sense, I might consider myself of that religion, but I have not found anything plausible so far in any religion.

Ok, so back to the plates. Your story is getting more convoluted by the chapter: God is the president of all gods. And there's only three. But in the mormon stories, isn't it something like earth is ruled by an alien who was made a god? (I read that in some earlier posts in this thread I believe). So isn't that number 4? And didn't you say that Jo might become a god too?
And Jo was tar and feathered? That's torture? To tell you the truth, it sounds more like he was tarred and feathered by being a charlatan, that's why they did that in those days. Torture is roasting him over and open pit tied to a wagon wheel. Or something like that. Plus he chipped his tooth on a bottle of poison? Man, that's so dumb, I'm surprised you even believe that one. So if he got poison on his lips, he would have died anyways. And a couple of boots to the crotch would have gotten his mouth open.

I know you believe you have the truth, all religions do. Just think for a second, why would god only reveal himself to some scraggly cowboy in the middle of nowhere? Does that even make any sense?

Then if god DOES want everyone to know him, why doesn't he just reveal himself to everyone? Or go on CNN? Why the fuck is he hiding? He think he's Osama bin Laden? Or is ObL god?

Civilized societies have evolved to not marry minors. That Jo married minors only goes to show how much less civilized or un-civilized they were back then.
There are still polygamous mormon communities in at least the US and Canada. To say that they aren't real mormons is pure sophistry. Just like kalam who claims that suicide bombers for jihad aren't real muslims. It's kalam who's not a real muslim.

Mississippi? Probably about 8 years old, but it has to be a family member.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment that you think I still have all my marbles. True a lot of our claims are outlandish. That doesn't make them false. To tell someone back in the 1800's there would be people walking on the moon would have been considered insane. Not so insane when it was true.

You can thank the infamous 8-ball, purveyor of anti-mormon stories, for the alien-God comment. That is stated in a way as to make God himself seem like a little green alien with a big head and giant black eyes. Since God was from another part of the universe, I guess technically you could call him an "alien" but he's not a green monster from the old 50's sci fi movies. He looks just like us since we are created in his image.
Your idea of torture is what is convoluted. Do you know what it means to be tarred and feathered? It's having someone spread boiling tar all over your body with a broom. After it scalds your skin, it sticks to it like a road. It then needs to be carefully peeled off which large chunks of skin along with it. This process took hours without pain pills. It is not only extremely painful but also humiliating and disfiguring. Just because the poison touched his lips and teeth doesn't mean he ingested it. His lips were burned but he didn't die. Fortunately Joseph was the undisputed toughest man in the county. Perhaps he exerted all his strength trying to protect his crotch. Maybe the mobbers didn't think to kick him there. Whatever. You would fight pretty hard to keep arsenic out of your mouth too.

By the way one of the reasons for which he was arrested and tried in court in Missouri was the charge of "being a charlatan." He was acquitted after the judge and jury found "no evidence" of his being such a rascal. If these things don't qualify as torture I don't know what does.

By the way, in our religion, the aspiration we have is to go back and live with God our father. Our father wants us to have all he has. He wants to teach us all he knows. When at some future time we attain to the same knowledge and perfection as God under his instruction, we will be considered gods as well. The concept isn't so sacreligious as people make it out to be. What good father doesn't want his children to grow up to be as good or better than him?

Like I said before, since this life is a test, and we are eventually going to see God again anyway, why would God give all the answers to the test right before we take the test. Your teachers in school want you to pass the test too but they aren't going to give you the answers while you are taking the test. That's the principle. They will give you the book and say, go study this. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are such books. If you genuinely want to know why a guy like me who seemingly has all his marbles would believe in such outlandish stories, then you would have to travel the road I traveled. Read those books, meditate on them and pray to God to see if he will answer your questions. That's the only way you will ever know. I don't have the power to convince you.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Before we start comparing testimonies of one instance with testimonies for another, the question of the witnesses reputation must come to the bearing.

For instance, the testimonies of Jesus disciples have an air of disingenuity only in the case that they were followers of Christ. Adoration is the greatest form of delusion, mind you. But in the case of Lincoln, you can find testimonies from people tha did not think highly of Lincoln himself, yet wrote about his assasination.

Also, the question about why god does not present himself to everyone in the world, and just a few individuals is a very poignant question that was brushed away to casually.

Is our all powerful, all knowing "God" yet to figure out that a great miracle every generation is necessary to keep people from questioning his existance? Or is it that "God" only favors a few individuals and only confide in them because the rest of us are not as important or understanding of "Gods" nature. Or maybe the information is not as important as the messanger want us to believe, "God" is just testing the individual, and knowledge of "the truth" is not really important--remember, "god" did create us in ignorance. So why would it be important for you to know something he did not care about informing you during your making?

Or maybe it is this simple--there is no god. The disciples, John Smith and all the prophets of the world, both past and present, are just delusionals that hear, sense, and confess things that occured only in their minds eye.

Interesting you mention witnesses and their point of view. Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer all had a major falling out with Joseph Smith for personal reasons. All three left the church and therefore were not in the state of adoration you speak of. Yet they all made it very clear that their viewing and handling of the plates was true reality. the same situation is true for 6 of the 8 other witnesses who viewed and hefted the plates.

The local non mormon paper testified that Joseph Smith was "murdered in cold blood." This came as a fulfillment of a prophecy that Joseph made saying "I go like a lamb to the slaughter and it shall yet be said of me 'He was murdered in cold blood'." It wasn't just the adoring mormons who saw the body of work he put forth.

By the way, if you had read much of this very long thread, you would have seen that I have not brushed away any questions in the slightest. You assume to know the mind of a God that you don't even believe in, saying that god hasn't figured out how to keep people from questioning him. How do you know that God IS trying to keep people from questioning him. In fact, he is trying to do the opposite. He has caused it to be written, Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. God condemns dogmas. A dogma is a teaching that is not to be questioned. Dogmas are instituted by man. God wants people to ask as many questions as we can come up with. That is the big secret most organized religion has been trying to keep from you.

If there is no God, there there is nothing to hope for. We are just going to die at some random moment with truly no purpose in life. I'd much rather stand from a position of hope.

 

[Eightball]

Before we start comparing testimonies of one instance with testimonies for another, the question of the witnesses reputation must come to the bearing.

For instance, the testimonies of Jesus disciples have an air of disingenuity only in the case that they were followers of Christ. Adoration is the greatest form of delusion, mind you. But in the case of Lincoln, you can find testimonies from people tha did not think highly of Lincoln himself, yet wrote about his assasination.

Also, the question about why god does not present himself to everyone in the world, and just a few individuals is a very poignant question that was brushed away to casually.

Is our all powerful, all knowing "God" yet to figure out that a great miracle every generation is necessary to keep people from questioning his existance? Or is it that "God" only favors a few individuals and only confide in them because the rest of us are not as important or understanding of "Gods" nature. Or maybe the information is not as important as the messanger want us to believe, "God" is just testing the individual, and knowledge of "the truth" is not really important--remember, "god" did create us in ignorance. So why would it be important for you to know something he did not care about informing you during your making?

Or maybe it is this simple--there is no god. The disciples, John Smith and all the prophets of the world, both past and present, are just delusionals that hear, sense, and confess things that occured only in their minds eye.

Interesting you mention witnesses and their point of view. Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer all had a major falling out with Joseph Smith for personal reasons. All three left the church and therefore were not in the state of adoration you speak of. Yet they all made it very clear that their viewing and handling of the plates was true reality. the same situation is true for 6 of the 8 other witnesses who viewed and hefted the plates.

The local non mormon paper testified that Joseph Smith was "murdered in cold blood." This came as a fulfillment of a prophecy that Joseph made saying "I go like a lamb to the slaughter and it shall yet be said of me 'He was murdered in cold blood'." It wasn't just the adoring mormons who saw the body of work he put forth.

By the way, if you had read much of this very long thread, you would have seen that I have not brushed away any questions in the slightest. You assume to know the mind of a God that you don't even believe in, saying that god hasn't figured out how to keep people from questioning him. How do you know that God IS trying to keep people from questioning him. In fact, he is trying to do the opposite. He has caused it to be written, Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. God condemns dogmas. A dogma is a teaching that is not to be questioned. Dogmas are instituted by man. God wants people to ask as many questions as we can come up with. That is the big secret most organized religion has been trying to keep from you.

If there is no God, there there is nothing to hope for. We are just going to die at some random moment with truly no purpose in life. I'd much rather stand from a position of hope.

The Mormon "Lamb To The Slaughter" shot at least two folks while being a martyr. Hardly the definition of a martyr.

Rewriting history is all the LDS church does. It has to constantly put out "fires" that are valid questions, and concerns about the ever leaking-out of sordid and strange doctrines.

Difficult Questions for Mormons to Answer

If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision).

If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubic foot. The plates were 7" x 8" by about 6". See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, p. 262, 34th ed.)

If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)

Why do Mormons emphasize part of the Word of Wisdom and ignore the part forbidding the eating of meat except in winter, cold or famine? (Doc. & Cov. 89:12,13).

Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (Doc. & Cov. 124:56-60).

If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).

How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon's while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (1 Kings 5:13-18 and 2 Nephi 5:15-17).

Why was Joseph Smith still preaching against polygamy in October 1843 after he got his revelation in July 1843 commanding the practice of polygamy? (Doc. & Cov. 132; and History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 46, or Teachings of the Prophet, p. 324).

God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?

 

[Eightball]

It's not that I have my mind made up, it's that I've always been interested in the why and how someone who appears to have all their marbles chooses to believe a certain religion and their outlandish stories. If I ever find a religion that makes sense, I might consider myself of that religion, but I have not found anything plausible so far in any religion.

Ok, so back to the plates. Your story is getting more convoluted by the chapter: God is the president of all gods. And there's only three. But in the mormon stories, isn't it something like earth is ruled by an alien who was made a god? (I read that in some earlier posts in this thread I believe). So isn't that number 4? And didn't you say that Jo might become a god too?
And Jo was tar and feathered? That's torture? To tell you the truth, it sounds more like he was tarred and feathered by being a charlatan, that's why they did that in those days. Torture is roasting him over and open pit tied to a wagon wheel. Or something like that. Plus he chipped his tooth on a bottle of poison? Man, that's so dumb, I'm surprised you even believe that one. So if he got poison on his lips, he would have died anyways. And a couple of boots to the crotch would have gotten his mouth open.

I know you believe you have the truth, all religions do. Just think for a second, why would god only reveal himself to some scraggly cowboy in the middle of nowhere? Does that even make any sense?

Then if god DOES want everyone to know him, why doesn't he just reveal himself to everyone? Or go on CNN? Why the fuck is he hiding? He think he's Osama bin Laden? Or is ObL god?

Civilized societies have evolved to not marry minors. That Jo married minors only goes to show how much less civilized or un-civilized they were back then.
There are still polygamous mormon communities in at least the US and Canada. To say that they aren't real mormons is pure sophistry. Just like kalam who claims that suicide bombers for jihad aren't real muslims. It's kalam who's not a real muslim.

Mississippi? Probably about 8 years old, but it has to be a family member.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment that you think I still have all my marbles. True a lot of our claims are outlandish. That doesn't make them false. To tell someone back in the 1800's there would be people walking on the moon would have been considered insane. Not so insane when it was true.

You can thank the infamous 8-ball, purveyor of anti-mormon stories, for the alien-God comment. That is stated in a way as to make God himself seem like a little green alien with a big head and giant black eyes. Since God was from another part of the universe, I guess technically you could call him an "alien" but he's not a green monster from the old 50's sci fi movies. He looks just like us since we are created in his image.
Your idea of torture is what is convoluted. Do you know what it means to be tarred and feathered? It's having someone spread boiling tar all over your body with a broom. After it scalds your skin, it sticks to it like a road. It then needs to be carefully peeled off which large chunks of skin along with it. This process took hours without pain pills. It is not only extremely painful but also humiliating and disfiguring. Just because the poison touched his lips and teeth doesn't mean he ingested it. His lips were burned but he didn't die. Fortunately Joseph was the undisputed toughest man in the county. Perhaps he exerted all his strength trying to protect his crotch. Maybe the mobbers didn't think to kick him there. Whatever. You would fight pretty hard to keep arsenic out of your mouth too.

By the way one of the reasons for which he was arrested and tried in court in Missouri was the charge of "being a charlatan." He was acquitted after the judge and jury found "no evidence" of his being such a rascal. If these things don't qualify as torture I don't know what does.

By the way, in our religion, the aspiration we have is to go back and live with God our father. Our father wants us to have all he has. He wants to teach us all he knows. When at some future time we attain to the same knowledge and perfection as God under his instruction, we will be considered gods as well. The concept isn't so sacreligious as people make it out to be. What good father doesn't want his children to grow up to be as good or better than him?

Like I said before, since this life is a test, and we are eventually going to see God again anyway, why would God give all the answers to the test right before we take the test. Your teachers in school want you to pass the test too but they aren't going to give you the answers while you are taking the test. That's the principle. They will give you the book and say, go study this. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are such books. If you genuinely want to know why a guy like me who seemingly has all his marbles would believe in such outlandish stories, then you would have to travel the road I traveled. Read those books, meditate on them and pray to God to see if he will answer your questions. That's the only way you will ever know. I don't have the power to convince you.

Totally and conviently mis-quoted me about aliens.

Only said that your Planet Kolob isn't much different from the Hubbard/Scientology doctrine/religion of human life being a perpetual continuation from planet to planet.

Actually, the alien concept isn't at all that inaccurate.

 

[Ceasaro]

Nostradamus predicted walking on the moon way before the 1800s. So it wasn't even a novel concept at that time.
So we're created in god's image. So he's androgynous looking?
So if your god is from another part of the universe, then who made the universe?
So if they were trying to poison Jo and he wouldn't open his mouth or they couldn't get him to (LOL), why didn't they just shoot him if they wanted to kill him? Then they would have never been able to find the plates. Again, makes no sense.
If our Father wants us to have everything that he has, as you say, why didn't he make us in his real image?
Life is a test? Most kids in my daughter's class can't even pass english. God is going to have to accept a lot of retards.
So we all can become gods? So there must be millions/billions of gods then. Make up your mind. Although if I could get my own planet to rule over, how cool would that be?
If you don't have to power to convert me, then why do you all go door to door? For fun?
Man, you don't sound like you have a good grasp on your religion.

 

[N4mddissent]

The N.T. is filled with eye witnesses to Jesus' ressurrection.

Paul even stated in one of his epistles that several hundred people were still living who witnessed the ressurrected Jesus when he wrote that epistle.

I didn't see Abe Lincoln get shot and die 149 years ago, but eye witnesses who are now dead and gone left their testimonies of the fact that still exist in written accounts.

So we have folks who lived nearly 2,000 years ago that testified to seeing and witnessing both the crucifixion and the ressurrection. Is their testimony any less valid?

In a word, yes- their testimony is less valid. For one thing, we have multiple corroborating accounts of the assasination of Lincoln. We have multiple accounts from various sources that Lincoln did live. We also have Lincoln's bloodstained pillow and photographs of his body. We have newspapers recording the event. And we know exactly where Lincoln is buried, so we can dig up his body if we have any further doubts.

Furthermore, someone being shot is not an equal claim to resurrection of the dead. If you tell me you have a cat, I will likely believe you, eightball, since you seem like an honest guy. If you tell me you have a blue alien with a penchant for anal probes in your basement, I would demand much more evidence before conceding my conviction.

In the case of Jesus, we have less evidence for a much more extraordinary claim. So the two situations are not equivalent. As a better example, I don't believe Adam Weishaupt killed Washington and took his place as president- not enough evidence- though both men existed- and an extraordinary claim. Though it doesn't hold a candle to "resurrection" as extraordinary.

And you know Paul claiming that hundreds of people witnessed it only counts as one source, not hundreds. Funny thing is, I don't recall Paul saying he actually witnessed it.

You know, once Grand Funk Railroad was performing a concert. After a guitar solo most of the audience was cheering wildly, but band members heard a distince "boo" emanating near the front row. As the audience quieted, the heckler's booing was audible and guitarist Mark Farner stepped up to the mike and said, "I don't know who didn't like my playing, but if you think you can do better, you're welcome to come try". To his shock, someone got up and climbed the steps onto the stage. To his dismay, the heckler was a smiling Eric Clapton. I heard this story from someone who knew somebody at that concert. Thousands witnessed this happen. A lot of people know the story and if you ask around, you'll eventually find someone else who knows about it or who is within a few degrees of someone who went to this concert.

All of this could be used to argue the validity of this event. Except, it didn't happen.

Gotta keep standards high for evidence.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's not that I have my mind made up, it's that I've always been interested in the why and how someone who appears to have all their marbles chooses to believe a certain religion and their outlandish stories. If I ever find a religion that makes sense, I might consider myself of that religion, but I have not found anything plausible so far in any religion.

Perhaps because the so called outlandish stories are a bunch of bs told by people trying to convince people to be blindly prejudiced against a faith. You want to learn the faith, you need to learn it from a believers perspective if you ever want to understand why they believe it.

I can promise you if you read the Book of Mormon and asked the Lord if it was true, He would reveal it to you. And you wouldnt think it outlandish at all. In fact, you would find alot of the questions of life answered in it's pages.

Ok, so back to the plates. Your story is getting more convoluted by the chapter: God is the president of all gods. And there's only three. But in the mormon stories, isn't it something like earth is ruled by an alien who was made a god? (I read that in some earlier posts in this thread I believe). So isn't that number 4? And didn't you say that Jo might become a god too?

And you wonder why we dont ever take you seriously?

And Jo was tar and feathered? That's torture? To tell you the truth, it sounds more like he was tarred and feathered by being a charlatan, that's why they did that in those days. Torture is roasting him over and open pit tied to a wagon wheel. Or something like that. Plus he chipped his tooth on a bottle of poison? Man, that's so dumb, I'm surprised you even believe that one. So if he got poison on his lips, he would have died anyways. And a couple of boots to the crotch would have gotten his mouth open.

The mob did chip his tooth trying to force poison in his mouth. Its an undisputable fact. His speech was affected by it. Sydney Rigdon was beaten with him so badly that he had brain damage that effected him later in his life.

I know you believe you have the truth, all religions do. Just think for a second, why would god only reveal himself to some scraggly cowboy in the middle of nowhere? Does that even make any sense?

Who says God only reveals Himself to anyone? The whole message Joseph had is that God will reveal Himself to those who have faith. We can recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost and know God intimately.

Then if god DOES want everyone to know him, why doesn't he just reveal himself to everyone? Or go on CNN? Why the fuck is he hiding? He think he's Osama bin Laden? Or is ObL god?

To give people the opportunity to repent.

Civilized societies have evolved to not marry minors. That Jo married minors only goes to show how much less civilized or un-civilized they were back then.

The fact that Joseph was sealed to multiple women does not mean that he was married in this life to any of them. The sealing power isnt something so lightly understood.

There are still polygamous mormon communities in at least the US and Canada. To say that they aren't real mormons is pure sophistry. Just like kalam who claims that suicide bombers for jihad aren't real muslims. It's kalam who's not a real muslim.

No there arent. The Mormon Church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Its clearly defined who is mormon and who is not. Those who are baptized into the Church are mormon. Those who arent arent. Those who are excommunicated are not. To pretend that they are somehow Mormon is ridiculous. Those who currently practice polygamy have either never been baptized or been excommunicated.

Now if all it took was a profession of belief to be mormon, you might have a point. But when you have to take measured action to become a member, its impossible to claim someone who hasnt taken that action is mormon. And its completely dishonest to claim that those people are in anyway associated with us.

The fact that you dont see the difference between taking affirmative action and merely making an affirmation of belief makes me question whether you have actually studied the matter.

 

[Ceasaro]

"Perhaps because the so called outlandish stories are a bunch of bs told by people trying to convince people to be blindly prejudiced against a faith." Huh? Just pick up the bible or the mormon book and open it to any page.

"I can promise you if you read the Book of Mormon and asked the Lord if it was true"
I just asked the lord if the book of mormons is true and he said "no". Having to read a book to find god is ...um... sorry to say... retarded.

The chipped tooth story still doesn't make any sense. If they were trying to poison him to kill him, why didn't they just shoot the fucker. But I can understand why he got beat up a lot, we had guys in school like that too. And being tarred and feathered like truthguy said would have killed him if it was so burning hot that flesh was melted and peeled off. Shit, you'd probably die from that today even with all our medical prowess.

"Who says God only reveals Himself to anyone?" Huh?

" The whole message Joseph had is that God will reveal Himself to those who have faith. We can recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost and know God intimately." So you don't need to be a mormon specifically? Just have faith? Or is it faith in Jo?

"Quote:
Then if god DOES want everyone to know him, why doesn't he just reveal himself to everyone? Or go on CNN? Why the fuck is he hiding? He think he's Osama bin Laden? Or is ObL god?
To give people the opportunity to repent. "
How can we repent if we can't tell if he's there or not? Again, lack of reasoning.

"The fact that Joseph was sealed to multiple women does not mean that he was married in this life to any of them. The sealing power isnt something so lightly understood." Of course! Why didn't I see that!! (lol, makes no sense)

So you get excommunicated for polygamous marriages these days? Then Jo would have been tossed from his own club. I doubt that Jo would go along with that, he would say that it's you who's not the real mormon and tossed you out on your ass.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Cesaro:

It's pointless for anyone to try and convince you. You really do have your mind made up. You don't even believe in God so repentance is the last thing from your mind. In order to consider repenting or Joseph Smith or any scriptures or Jesus for that matter, you have to first desire to believe. You are not going to invest the time and energy in seeking out a visually unseen God unless you are first willing to calm down, lose the rage and sarcasm, and WANT to know if there is a God.

It's funny you said God answered your prayer and told you the Book of Mormon is false yet you still claim there is no God. How could a non existant God answer your prayer? To steal one of your lines "It makes no sense."

 

[Truthspeaker]

For Good ol Stubborn 8-Ball, a supposed believer in God who sides more with an atheist than a Mormon: May I remind you I have already answered all of these very easy to deal with questions. But for the sake of newcomers I will do it again:
If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision).

I already explained, the curse placed upon the Lamanites and his descendants was taken away before the Book of Mormon was even completed. There is no Lamanite curse today. 3rd Nephi states this.

If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)
Oh those purposeless and miserable malcontents the Tanner's who have nothing better to do than promote their religion of Anti-Mormonism. They don't do anything except try and tear down their old faith. Serious sour grapes. What kind of life is that? Why don't they just go enjoy their lives and just say it wasn't for them. Why the persistant attacks? Weird. Anywhoo... It's been clearly shown that the only changes made were to enable grammatical and punctuational perfection. When an ancient language with Egyptian and Hebrew roots is being literally translated there are bound to be some head scratching moments since we don't know much about ancient idioms and customs. There were zero doctrinal changes and that is what is important. The education and english skills of Joseph and his translators were nothing compared to today's High School students. I don't see a problem.

How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubic foot. The plates were 7" x 8" by about 6". See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, p. 262, 34th ed.)

Again, another one of the easier to deal with questions. Either of these 2 answers will do:
1. If you believe the Bible and believe God has the power to give Samson the strength to kill a lion with his bare hands, it's not much to ask of God to give Joseph the strength to lift 250 pounds with ease. I'm sure the weight of the water removed from the part in the Red Sea weighed a little more than than. No biggie.
2. For those who don't believe in miracles there is a more practical answer. First, Joseph was the undisputed strongest man in the state. Second, the plates were never officially declared to be made of pure gold. A curious statement from Joseph is that the angel Moroni never said they were gold but simply there was a book deposited with engravings on them. When Joseph saw them and hefted them along with the other witnesses, they were quoted as saying the plates "had the appearance of gold." Recently discovered in Meso America is the gold like metal called Tumbaga, from which plates have been shown to be made in ancient times. They weigh half as much and considering the plates were not a solid block but were pages with engravings which further reduce the weight of the book we are looking at something more like 60 to 80 pounds compacted into a small Bible sized object. Certainly the strongest guy in the state with a little help from God could do the things he said he did with them. Isn't it just fun to hear about all the new stuff archaeology finds?


If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)
Interesting question. First it's not my job to play God and say who is going to be a god and who isn't. That's because final judgment hasn't occured yet. It doesn't matter what happens to Moroni though. Totally irrelevant, he has to answer for his own sins just like all of us. Second, in his day the church wasn't called "Mormon". Mormon was his dad's name and the church they belonged to which was established by Jesus in person was called "The Church of Christ."

Why do Mormons emphasize part of the Word of Wisdom and ignore the part forbidding the eating of meat except in winter, cold or famine? (Doc. & Cov. 89:12,13).

Actually we emphasize it all. It's just that even Mormons aren't perfect. They should be adhering to the health code much better than they currently are as a whole. We are all supposed to follow the whole Word, not just by abstaining from things but we are also commanded to eat healthy and wholesome foods and excercise. Read the Word of Wisdom some time. You will realize the food pyramid was revealed first by God to Joseph Smith and not by the FDA.

Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (Doc. & Cov. 124:56-60).
Nowhere in the revelation does it state that the house would stand forever. It will be rebuilt in the same place and resume it's purpose in the millenium. Easy.

If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50).

For the hundredth time. Mary was a virgin. God was the father, but not through intercourse. Nowhere is it written as so. Only misinterpreted. Please don't ask this one again.

How did Nephi with a few men on a new continent build a temple like Solomon's while Solomon needed 163,300 workmen and seven years to build his temple? (1 Kings 5:13-18 and 2 Nephi 5:15-17).
Two reasons. Solomon's temple was made of much heavier materials and required far more precious metals etc. and Nephi stated that such things were not to be found in the land but he clearly discribed that his temple was just following guidelines along the blueprint for Solomons temple. He didn't try to copy exactly the temple but just the basic layout.
We don't know how long it took Nephi to build his temple but I doubt it took as long. But I bet it wasn't built overnight. It doesn't really matter anyway.

Reason two: 27 people under the direction of God can do some pretty amazing things

Why was Joseph Smith still preaching against polygamy in October 1843 after he got his revelation in July 1843 commanding the practice of polygamy? (Doc. & Cov. 132; and History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 46, or Teachings of the Prophet, p. 324).

A just question which deserves a just answer. If you read the revelation in 132 you will understand that there are strict guidelines to follow and that it is not for any one person to say I just want to have more wives. It needs to be commanded specifically by God through his order and for a purpose. Many people were just taking extra wives without authorization from God. God picks the time and generation for the purpose of populating his church among other reasons. Not man. Joseph didn't initially want to practice polygamy but he was commanded due to circumstances that have already been explained. But I'm sure you'll ask me to explain them again.

God rejected the fig leaf aprons which Adam and Eve made (Gen. 3:21). Why do Mormons memorialize the fall by using fig leaf aprons in the secret temple ceremonies?

The aprons talked about in the Bible were just haphazard towels the two grabbed to cover their bashfulness when God appeared to them. Once they had discovered their nakedness God would rather see them in better clothes. If you want to really know about the explanation of the apron in the temple ceremony you will have to become a mormon and go through the temple and meditate on the ceremony to get a better comprehension of such things. You won't get the true understanding through anti-mormon websites.

 

[HUGGY]

The N.T. is filled with eye witnesses to Jesus' ressurrection.

Paul even stated in one of his epistles that several hundred people were still living who witnessed the ressurrected Jesus when he wrote that epistle.

I didn't see Abe Lincoln get shot and die 149 years ago, but eye witnesses who are now dead and gone left their testimonies of the fact that still exist in written accounts.

So we have folks who lived nearly 2,000 years ago that testified to seeing and witnessing both the crucifixion and the ressurrection. Is their testimony any less valid?

Now, who are the witnesses to J.S. Jr.'s ecounter with an angel, and the Golden plates that no longer exist? If Mormonism is the truth, why did God allow the Golden plates to be lost, and basically the whole testimony of this latter day visitation from an angel.

Also, you might note that Demons are angels, and they project themselves in deceiving ways. How do you know that Moroni the angel wasn't one of Satan's cohorts sent to deceive man and lead him away from the biblical Christianity?

We have more witnesses for the Book of Mormon and the plates than we do in the Bible for the resurrection. To somehow claim we can accept those eye witnesses and must dismiss the Book of Mormon witnesses is absurd.

Olivery Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer all saw the plates. They saw the angel and heard the voice of God declaring the Book of Mormon true. They went to their graves affirming that.

8 other witnesses wrote their witness of the plates. They handled them with their hands.

Their witness is in the beginning of the Book of Mormon. There are other witnesses of the plates that werent published with the Book. I know a man who saw the plates for himself.

Oliver was with Joseph when the Aaronic and Melchesidek Priesthood was restored.

Sidney Rigdon was with Joseph along with 27 other people when they recieve the Vision of the Degrees of Glory.

Oliver was once again with Joseph when Christ appeared at the Kirtland Temple along with Elijah, Elias, and Moses with the keys of the Kingdom.

Wilford Wooddruff and others of the brethren were with Joseph when they went about healing the sick and afflicted in Nauvoo with the power of God. Hundreds were healed. One man was even brought back from the dead.

The entire School of the Prophets were visited by the Father and Jesus Christ during one of their meetings.

In fact, the only major event of the Restoration that wasnt witnessed by multiple people was Joseph's first vision. Joseph even went to his death with his brother and both of their murdered bodies have sealed their witness for the Book of Mormon and the Restoration in their blood.

So you are honestly going to pretend there are no eye witnesses to anything Joseph did? Seriously?? I mean much of whats so amazing about Joseph Smith is he was continually bringing other people into the revelations he was recieving. He wasnt just saying "Hey believe me when I claim to talk to God." He was saying "Here is what God has told me and why dont you come and find out from God yourself?"

Yet there are always people who seem to think going to the source of all information is somehow wrong and ungodly. It makes no sense that people preach of a relationship with God and then refuse to believe He says anything to people outside of the Bible. What kind of relationship can you possibily have with someone who you claim ignores you?

8 other witnesses wrote their witness of the plates. They handled them with their hands.

We got plates at the restaurant...they get witnessed and touched by a couple o mexicans every day..we keep em in a special place called the dishwashing room.

Maybe they are magic plates.

Ya think god wants us to use these magic plates to serve up pizza and pasta?

Jesus is about comfort and we serve comfort food! Is there a connection?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Nostradamus predicted walking on the moon way before the 1800s. So it wasn't even a novel concept at that time.

Just because Nostradamus predicted it doesn't mean he wasn't thought to be crazy. He had no proof or evidence to make his prediction make any sense at all. By the way it was a novel concept because most people on earth in his day had never heard of him.
So we're created in god's image. So he's androgynous looking?
No God is a male with all the same body parts as a man. Just better ones.

So if your god is from another part of the universe, then who made the universe? It would be more accurate to say God lives in another part of the universe he created. Not from the universe.

So if they were trying to poison Jo and he wouldn't open his mouth or they couldn't get him to (LOL), why didn't they just shoot him if they wanted to kill him? Then they would have never been able to find the plates. Again, makes no sense.

Easy. They had been frustrated so many times with near catches of the plates that they now believed the plates would never be found. They knew he would find a place they would never get to. They beat him out of frustration. Why didn't they just shoot him? Easy, they wanted to see him suffer more than to see him die. They wanted to see his eyes bug out in a painful poisonous death. After they couldn't get the poison down his throat, they decided it was better to tar and feather him and he would be more humiliated that way than by just a plain old boring shooting. After a while, they realized they couldn't get him to give up his faith through humiliation. Eventually they did just shoot him.

If our Father wants us to have everything that he has, as you say, why didn't he make us in his real image? That's coming later. After the test of life we will get a resurrection to a perfect body like he has. One that is eternally strong and youthful with no imperfections.

Life is a test? Most kids in my daughter's class can't even pass english. God is going to have to accept a lot of retards.

Yep.

So we all can become gods? So there must be millions/billions of gods then. Make up your mind. Although if I could get my own planet to rule over, how cool would that be? Pretty cool indeed. Sure there's going to be lots of Gods. But they will all be co equal and eternal with God their father who wants it to be that way. Everyone united in purpose. Doesn't sound so bad to me.

If you don't have to power to convert me, then why do you all go door to door? For fun?
Man, you don't sound like you have a good grasp on your religion.

I went door to door in South Africa because I wanted to answer questions and lead them to God who will do the convincing. People decide for themselves after they have all the information. In short. We do it because when you have a good thing. You want others to share it with you. It's more fun when you have others to share it with.

 

[Truthspeaker]

The N.T. is filled with eye witnesses to Jesus' ressurrection.

Paul even stated in one of his epistles that several hundred people were still living who witnessed the ressurrected Jesus when he wrote that epistle.

I didn't see Abe Lincoln get shot and die 149 years ago, but eye witnesses who are now dead and gone left their testimonies of the fact that still exist in written accounts.

So we have folks who lived nearly 2,000 years ago that testified to seeing and witnessing both the crucifixion and the ressurrection. Is their testimony any less valid?

Now, who are the witnesses to J.S. Jr.'s ecounter with an angel, and the Golden plates that no longer exist? If Mormonism is the truth, why did God allow the Golden plates to be lost, and basically the whole testimony of this latter day visitation from an angel.

Also, you might note that Demons are angels, and they project themselves in deceiving ways. How do you know that Moroni the angel wasn't one of Satan's cohorts sent to deceive man and lead him away from the biblical Christianity?

We have more witnesses for the Book of Mormon and the plates than we do in the Bible for the resurrection. To somehow claim we can accept those eye witnesses and must dismiss the Book of Mormon witnesses is absurd.

Olivery Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer all saw the plates. They saw the angel and heard the voice of God declaring the Book of Mormon true. They went to their graves affirming that.

8 other witnesses wrote their witness of the plates. They handled them with their hands.

Their witness is in the beginning of the Book of Mormon. There are other witnesses of the plates that werent published with the Book. I know a man who saw the plates for himself.

Oliver was with Joseph when the Aaronic and Melchesidek Priesthood was restored.

Sidney Rigdon was with Joseph along with 27 other people when they recieve the Vision of the Degrees of Glory.

Oliver was once again with Joseph when Christ appeared at the Kirtland Temple along with Elijah, Elias, and Moses with the keys of the Kingdom.

Wilford Wooddruff and others of the brethren were with Joseph when they went about healing the sick and afflicted in Nauvoo with the power of God. Hundreds were healed. One man was even brought back from the dead.

The entire School of the Prophets were visited by the Father and Jesus Christ during one of their meetings.

In fact, the only major event of the Restoration that wasnt witnessed by multiple people was Joseph's first vision. Joseph even went to his death with his brother and both of their murdered bodies have sealed their witness for the Book of Mormon and the Restoration in their blood.

So you are honestly going to pretend there are no eye witnesses to anything Joseph did? Seriously?? I mean much of whats so amazing about Joseph Smith is he was continually bringing other people into the revelations he was recieving. He wasnt just saying "Hey believe me when I claim to talk to God." He was saying "Here is what God has told me and why dont you come and find out from God yourself?"

Yet there are always people who seem to think going to the source of all information is somehow wrong and ungodly. It makes no sense that people preach of a relationship with God and then refuse to believe He says anything to people outside of the Bible. What kind of relationship can you possibily have with someone who you claim ignores you?

8 other witnesses wrote their witness of the plates. They handled them with their hands.

We got plates at the restaurant...they get witnessed and touched by a couple o mexicans every day..we keep em in a special place called the dishwashing room.

Maybe they are magic plates.

Ya think god wants us to use these magic plates to serve up pizza and pasta?

Jesus is about comfort and we serve comfort food! Is there a connection?

Funny Huggy

 

[Ceasaro]

Trurhguy, after reading your recent answers, I would say: have fun in your fantasy world I guess. As long as your not hurting/converting anyone, I guess it's all good. My interest lies more in trying to figure out how you can believe such crazy shit. I guess it comes down to: someone musta snipped a hole in your marble bag, I don't know what else to say. Your stories are cool, but it's like believing that Alice in Wonderland is real too. It can be fun to let your mind go for the time of a movie, but I don't know, it's like you never came back to reality.
I get preachy people coming to my door regularly, they all look like they're in some sort of trance, like an alien being is controlling their minds (although that's probably not far from doctrine, lol).
Last time 2 young people came to my door I told them: I can prove to you that god doesn't exist. So the guy stopped talking. I said: if god really did exist, do you really think that he'd need you to go door to door? The girl he was with burst out laughing before quickly controlling herself. And I went back in the house.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Trurhguy, after reading your recent answers, I would say: have fun in your fantasy world I guess. As long as your not hurting/converting anyone, I guess it's all good. My interest lies more in trying to figure out how you can believe such crazy shit. I guess it comes down to: someone musta snipped a hole in your marble bag, I don't know what else to say. Your stories are cool, but it's like believing that Alice in Wonderland is real too. It can be fun to let your mind go for the time of a movie, but I don't know, it's like you never came back to reality.
I get preachy people coming to my door regularly, they all look like they're in some sort of trance, like an alien being is controlling their minds (although that's probably not far from doctrine, lol).
Last time 2 young people came to my door I told them: I can prove to you that god doesn't exist. So the guy stopped talking. I said: if god really did exist, do you really think that he'd need you to go door to door? The girl he was with burst out laughing before quickly controlling herself. And I went back in the house.

Well Cesaro if I hadn't been privy to some amazing personal experiences I would think much as you do. I certainly don't think you are crazy for your opinion but I see where you are coming from. We all have to draw our own conclusions. If you really want to know why I believe the "Crazy S!$@" I do, then you will have to read the Book of Mormon all the way through. It explains it better than I do.
But I must say I came to this conclusion of mine over a period of 15 years of hard study and prayer. It's more immediate for some people but for me it took more time to really solidify my faith.

 

[OregonJayBird]

In Mormonism, it is a matter of absolutes: if one believes and practices and devotes themsleves to all that is their God and The Book of Mormon they are to be the chosen ones, Godly seated in the afterlife.

If, however, they do not believe in praising the lifestyle and God laid forth in The Book or Mormon, they are considered on the side of the devil. Explain, then, how a (theoretical) family in Africa worshipping a rock, yet believing in the blissful afterlife of all who believe otherwise, could be seen as people to be pitied for their lack of Mormon belief?

Isn't indoctrinating in children that one religion is the correct and only religion really only teaching intollerance, or worse yet, hate? Truthspeaker, we both know intollerance has never gotten the human race anywhere. Why, then, do Mormons insist on barging into regions of the globe that have their own colorful ceremony and try to shame them out of those beliefs by either utilizing the "things won't be so bad if you convert to my religion" tactic, or by giving charity with one hand while asking acceptance of the Mormon God in return? Why squash the diversity which makes the whole world go around? Can't the church give without asking conversion or without plopping down temples in those places they bring aid to?

I make a mean potato salad, Truthppeaker, but I don't go telling everyone mine's better than theirs when they seem so proud of theirs. What good do you do the world to try and crush the peaceful going about of others? And don't come back with "But I AM tollerant." No, no you are not. You specifically went on a mission to convert others. They didn't stick you out there and just hope that Mormonism would come up in conversation over those two years... no, you got in people's face about it... because you believe you are right and they are wrong. Period. THAT is intollerance. Getting in people's face is not only intollerance, but smug intollerance.

As if you are being so helpful as to save them when really you just can't stand the thought of coming back with no conversions. You want the GRAND SLAM, baby. You want to be the guy who comes back with 500 conversions - "They'll write about me, ya know!" - not the guy who couldn't even sell a single candy bar for the school band trip. We all know you'd have had just as good of a time (or better) surfing and springing beautiful women for two years. But to come back home and say you surfed and worked as a lifeguard for two years isn't going to bring any Mormon Atta-Boys, is it.

Finally, what are you so affraid of in this life that you would spend it frantically preparing for the afterlife?

"Whether it's God or The Bomb... it's just the same: it's only 'Fear' under another name."

Why couldn't you be happy enough just living, dying, then being food and nutrients for another lifeform to take shape? Not comforting enough to you? That's sad. That's really sad. You look like a bright kid, too. I hope then, for your sake, your Mormonism thing is right, 'cause boy oh boy are you going to be one SUPER bummed little soldier if the lights go out and that's all she wrote.

Plant me with the seed of a tree, and all that is me will live a thousand years more.

Good luck with your whole afterlife thing. Keep spreading the word and anticipating (belief is a manmade concept) the unknown. Sounds like religion is a really time-consuming hobby, filled with guilt and silly rules beyond those of "common sense" teachings of all mankind. If it keeps you from killing people or stealing or cheating or lying, more power to ya bud. But you don't need religion to be a grand person, or to feel happy and fulfilled... Or... perhaps your free will has already died, and you truly do need Mormonism now.
Eek, what shackles.