The Truth about Mormons

[geauxtohell]

All organized religions believe silly stuff and have their fair share of skeletons in their closet, so I don't take exception with any of them.

I will say that Mormons, as a group, are some of the nicest and most polite people I have ever met.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well that's nice to hear.

 

[geauxtohell]

Well that's nice to hear.

Dammit!

Must you people be so nice?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well that's nice to hear.

Dammit!

Must you people be so nice?

The second greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Only nice people can do that.

 

[N4mddissent]

I used to believe. I prayed. I asked for wisdom. I have read the bible many times. In fact, I planned on being a minister. I participated in bible studies, went to church retreats during the summer, evangelized in the community, and even delivered a few sermons during evening services.

I no longer believe. It wasn't sudden or asked for. I had never even met a self-declared unbeliever when I lost my faith. There was no literature or propoganda. Just simply thinking critically and searching for the truth- initially the true "faith" or better understanding of god's will - I carefully studied and gradually chipped away the inconsistencies that were questionable or appeared contrived by man. Eventually there was nothing left and I surprised myself with the realization that I honestly no longer believed.

A quest for the truth present in the word of god led me to the conclusion that god is only a word. Just like language is a way of ordering and labeling the world to communicate, the concept of god is a way of ordering and labeling the unknown. There is no evidence of its actual existence as a "being".
My search was done in good faith and led to no faith. How does that fit into the ideology you presented, Avatar? I was humble, willing, and had abundant faith. I have to keep my (lack of) beliefs close to my vest due to potential social repurcussions in the small town where I live, but at the same time, I feel more content and at peace than I ever did relying on faith.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I used to believe. I prayed. I asked for wisdom. I have read the bible many times. In fact, I planned on being a minister. I participated in bible studies, went to church retreats during the summer, evangelized in the community, and even delivered a few sermons during evening services.

I no longer believe. It wasn't sudden or asked for. I had never even met a self-declared unbeliever when I lost my faith. There was no literature or propoganda. Just simply thinking critically and searching for the truth- initially the true "faith" or better understanding of god's will - I carefully studied and gradually chipped away the inconsistencies that were questionable or appeared contrived by man. Eventually there was nothing left and I surprised myself with the realization that I honestly no longer believed.

A quest for the truth present in the word of god led me to the conclusion that god is only a word. Just like language is a way of ordering and labeling the world to communicate, the concept of god is a way of ordering and labeling the unknown. There is no evidence of its actual existence as a "being".
My search was done in good faith and led to no faith. How does that fit into the ideology you presented, Avatar? I was humble, willing, and had abundant faith. I have to keep my (lack of) beliefs close to my vest due to potential social repurcussions in the small town where I live, but at the same time, I feel more content and at peace than I ever did relying on faith.

I know you directed your statement toward Avatar so I'm sorry if you didn't want my opinion. But I thought it might be helpful to tell you I was having the same questions you had in the past. I drew a different conclusion. I am sure we both had different experiences because we were raised in to different social circles in different parts of the world. Might I suggest you give the Book of Mormon a try. I would really respect your opinion on it. I'm very curious as to what you would think about it. But there is only one way to read it; cover to cover in order without stopping in the middle and never giving the rest of it a chance.
You can't spot read. It won't make sense. Like entering into the middle of a movie like The Game(Michael Douglas).
Also part of the caveat is that you must(and I know you will) read it very carefully and ask questions about things you don't understand right away. I would love to hear what you have to say.

 

[N4mddissent]

I used to believe. I prayed. I asked for wisdom. I have read the bible many times. In fact, I planned on being a minister. I participated in bible studies, went to church retreats during the summer, evangelized in the community, and even delivered a few sermons during evening services.

I no longer believe. It wasn't sudden or asked for. I had never even met a self-declared unbeliever when I lost my faith. There was no literature or propoganda. Just simply thinking critically and searching for the truth- initially the true "faith" or better understanding of god's will - I carefully studied and gradually chipped away the inconsistencies that were questionable or appeared contrived by man. Eventually there was nothing left and I surprised myself with the realization that I honestly no longer believed.

A quest for the truth present in the word of god led me to the conclusion that god is only a word. Just like language is a way of ordering and labeling the world to communicate, the concept of god is a way of ordering and labeling the unknown. There is no evidence of its actual existence as a "being".
My search was done in good faith and led to no faith. How does that fit into the ideology you presented, Avatar? I was humble, willing, and had abundant faith. I have to keep my (lack of) beliefs close to my vest due to potential social repurcussions in the small town where I live, but at the same time, I feel more content and at peace than I ever did relying on faith.

I know you directed your statement toward Avatar so I'm sorry if you didn't want my opinion. But I thought it might be helpful to tell you I was having the same questions you had in the past. I drew a different conclusion. I am sure we both had different experiences because we were raised in to different social circles in different parts of the world. Might I suggest you give the Book of Mormon a try. I would really respect your opinion on it. I'm very curious as to what you would think about it. But there is only one way to read it; cover to cover in order without stopping in the middle and never giving the rest of it a chance.
You can't spot read. It won't make sense. Like entering into the middle of a movie like The Game(Michael Douglas).
Also part of the caveat is that you must(and I know you will) read it very carefully and ask questions about things you don't understand right away. I would love to hear what you have to say.

Yeah, I have a lot of books packed away at a former residence. I thought I had brought a copy of the BoM with me, but I must have left it. I will have to wait until I can swing by and find my copy.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I used to believe. I prayed. I asked for wisdom. I have read the bible many times. In fact, I planned on being a minister. I participated in bible studies, went to church retreats during the summer, evangelized in the community, and even delivered a few sermons during evening services.

I no longer believe. It wasn't sudden or asked for. I had never even met a self-declared unbeliever when I lost my faith. There was no literature or propoganda. Just simply thinking critically and searching for the truth- initially the true "faith" or better understanding of god's will - I carefully studied and gradually chipped away the inconsistencies that were questionable or appeared contrived by man. Eventually there was nothing left and I surprised myself with the realization that I honestly no longer believed.

A quest for the truth present in the word of god led me to the conclusion that god is only a word. Just like language is a way of ordering and labeling the world to communicate, the concept of god is a way of ordering and labeling the unknown. There is no evidence of its actual existence as a "being".
My search was done in good faith and led to no faith. How does that fit into the ideology you presented, Avatar? I was humble, willing, and had abundant faith. I have to keep my (lack of) beliefs close to my vest due to potential social repurcussions in the small town where I live, but at the same time, I feel more content and at peace than I ever did relying on faith.

I know you directed your statement toward Avatar so I'm sorry if you didn't want my opinion. But I thought it might be helpful to tell you I was having the same questions you had in the past. I drew a different conclusion. I am sure we both had different experiences because we were raised in to different social circles in different parts of the world. Might I suggest you give the Book of Mormon a try. I would really respect your opinion on it. I'm very curious as to what you would think about it. But there is only one way to read it; cover to cover in order without stopping in the middle and never giving the rest of it a chance.
You can't spot read. It won't make sense. Like entering into the middle of a movie like The Game(Michael Douglas).
Also part of the caveat is that you must(and I know you will) read it very carefully and ask questions about things you don't understand right away. I would love to hear what you have to say.

Yeah, I have a lot of books packed away at a former residence. I thought I had brought a copy of the BoM with me, but I must have left it. I will have to wait until I can swing by and find my copy.

I can have one sent to you for free, no questions asked.

 

[Eightball]

The N.T. is filled with eye witnesses to Jesus' ressurrection.

Paul even stated in one of his epistles that several hundred people were still living who witnessed the ressurrected Jesus when he wrote that epistle.

I didn't see Abe Lincoln get shot and die 149 years ago, but eye witnesses who are now dead and gone left their testimonies of the fact that still exist in written accounts.

So we have folks who lived nearly 2,000 years ago that testified to seeing and witnessing both the crucifixion and the ressurrection. Is their testimony any less valid?

Now, who are the witnesses to J.S. Jr.'s ecounter with an angel, and the Golden plates that no longer exist? If Mormonism is the truth, why did God allow the Golden plates to be lost, and basically the whole testimony of this latter day visitation from an angel.

Also, you might note that Demons are angels, and they project themselves in deceiving ways. How do you know that Moroni the angel wasn't one of Satan's cohorts sent to deceive man and lead him away from the biblical Christianity?

 

[Eightball]

The N.T. is filled with eye witnesses to Jesus' ressurrection.

Paul even stated in one of his epistles that several hundred people were still living who witnessed the ressurrected Jesus when he wrote that epistle.

I didn't see Abe Lincoln get shot and die 149 years ago, but eye witnesses who are now dead and gone left their testimonies of the fact that still exist in written accounts.

So we have folks who lived nearly 2,000 years ago that testified to seeing and witnessing both the crucifixion and the ressurrection. Is their testimony any less valid?

Now, who are the witnesses to J.S. Jr.'s ecounter with an angel, and the Golden plates that no longer exist? If Mormonism is the truth, why did God allow the Golden plates to be lost, and basically the whole testimony of this latter day visitation from an angel. Oh, yeah, Moroni has them. As for witnesses "3" folks the rest claim visitations via visions. Boy, that real evidenciary stuff there.

Also, you might note that Demons are angels, and they project themselves in deceiving ways. How do you know that Moroni the angel wasn't one of Satan's cohorts sent to deceive man and lead him away from the biblical Christianity?

Some day the bubble will pop, and this whole paradigm that you've built your life upon will tumble down.

This Mormon tag-team comprised of Truth Speaker and Avatar are so badly duped into this LDS cult, that foundationally is a laughing hoot, but in reality is a very sad and tragic thing.

TruthSpeaker, no doubt your an elder. You haven't mentioned it yet, but your threads reak of the typical elitist atitude that Mormon elders and bishops carry. You play the role of the oppressed religious victim, yet you are what the Jesus referred to as "ravenous wolves in sheeps clothing". You prey on those with nominal biblical understanding or those that have been disenchanted by their experiences in the mainstream biblical churches, and woo them with sweet, encouragement.

You know your BOM is filled with plagarisms from the bible, with title or name changes to the books within, and then sprinkled with J.S. Jr's ambitious mind. The BOM reveals some very crafty deception, but also reveals that the author was very uneducated in geography, ancient history, and understanding of the development of ancient cultures.

Someday, hopefully, God will intervene in your life in a way that will cause you to ponder the merits of your belief system. Hopefully you will actually face the facts, and not lean on your skewed definition of faith. Faith is no validated by visions, or dreams. Visions and dreams and words from God to your psyche can be valid, but Satan also has access to your soul and is the Prince of this World. He can work up some very vivid visions and dreams that seem like sweet honey. He/Satan even can give you a dream of a dead relative you so admired and in that dream that relative will tell you, "Mormonis is the truth". It happens all the time.

If during one of those visions, you were to say to that messenger, "Is Jesus Christ the one and only Son of God, and God in the Flesh, and there are no other Gods before Him.", you will have a very big surprise. That vision will turn ugly, and you'll think you got hit with a hammer. You will then know that you have tested the spirits, and the spirits have revealed who they really are.

Are you brave enough to test the spirits, next time you have a burning bosom type encounter.

I've prayed in my dreams when encounter that which seemed evil, and boy oh boy, did that dream ever change in a hurry.

Satan is alive and well, prowling about the earth with his principalities, or army of fallen twisted angels/demons, going about whispering lies, into visions, dreams, and other phenomena.

The Mormon church is one of his most glorious pieces of art and design, as it centers on the fleshly side of man and his needs, and disregards the gospel of forgiveness through grace.

The cross is never to be seen on the steeple of a Mormon church. It holds little importance, yet the Gospel of Jesus Christ starts at the cross for all who seek salvation. There is no other road to eternal life. It is a narrow road and man seeks the easy road. Mormonism is that wide road authored by the Prince of this World.

Ever wonder why a Moroni stands atop the roof of the Mormon church and not the symbol of the cross where Jesus gave it all for humanity?

 

[Avatar4321]

All organized religions believe silly stuff and have their fair share of skeletons in their closet, so I don't take exception with any of them.

I will say that Mormons, as a group, are some of the nicest and most polite people I have ever met.

Not sure i agree. I think silly is a rather relative term. What's silly to one person may make perfect sense to another.

Oh and we dont have any skeletons in our closet. Any so called skeleton has been out for decades.

 

[Avatar4321]

Dammit!

Must you people be so nice?

Friendship is one of the three grand principles of mormonism. That's why.

 

[Avatar4321]

The N.T. is filled with eye witnesses to Jesus' ressurrection.

Paul even stated in one of his epistles that several hundred people were still living who witnessed the ressurrected Jesus when he wrote that epistle.

I didn't see Abe Lincoln get shot and die 149 years ago, but eye witnesses who are now dead and gone left their testimonies of the fact that still exist in written accounts.

So we have folks who lived nearly 2,000 years ago that testified to seeing and witnessing both the crucifixion and the ressurrection. Is their testimony any less valid?

Now, who are the witnesses to J.S. Jr.'s ecounter with an angel, and the Golden plates that no longer exist? If Mormonism is the truth, why did God allow the Golden plates to be lost, and basically the whole testimony of this latter day visitation from an angel.

Also, you might note that Demons are angels, and they project themselves in deceiving ways. How do you know that Moroni the angel wasn't one of Satan's cohorts sent to deceive man and lead him away from the biblical Christianity?

We have more witnesses for the Book of Mormon and the plates than we do in the Bible for the resurrection. To somehow claim we can accept those eye witnesses and must dismiss the Book of Mormon witnesses is absurd.

Olivery Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer all saw the plates. They saw the angel and heard the voice of God declaring the Book of Mormon true. They went to their graves affirming that.

8 other witnesses wrote their witness of the plates. They handled them with their hands.

Their witness is in the beginning of the Book of Mormon. There are other witnesses of the plates that werent published with the Book. I know a man who saw the plates for himself.

Oliver was with Joseph when the Aaronic and Melchesidek Priesthood was restored.

Sidney Rigdon was with Joseph along with 27 other people when they recieve the Vision of the Degrees of Glory.

Oliver was once again with Joseph when Christ appeared at the Kirtland Temple along with Elijah, Elias, and Moses with the keys of the Kingdom.

Wilford Wooddruff and others of the brethren were with Joseph when they went about healing the sick and afflicted in Nauvoo with the power of God. Hundreds were healed. One man was even brought back from the dead.

The entire School of the Prophets were visited by the Father and Jesus Christ during one of their meetings.

In fact, the only major event of the Restoration that wasnt witnessed by multiple people was Joseph's first vision. Joseph even went to his death with his brother and both of their murdered bodies have sealed their witness for the Book of Mormon and the Restoration in their blood.

So you are honestly going to pretend there are no eye witnesses to anything Joseph did? Seriously?? I mean much of whats so amazing about Joseph Smith is he was continually bringing other people into the revelations he was recieving. He wasnt just saying "Hey believe me when I claim to talk to God." He was saying "Here is what God has told me and why dont you come and find out from God yourself?"

Yet there are always people who seem to think going to the source of all information is somehow wrong and ungodly. It makes no sense that people preach of a relationship with God and then refuse to believe He says anything to people outside of the Bible. What kind of relationship can you possibily have with someone who you claim ignores you?

 

[Ceasaro]

So Jo lost the plates? lol.
And is Jo now a god?
And if god really did reveal himself.... to mormons, why didn't god show himself in the same way to everyone, including non-mormons?
Why is it that god only reveals himself to one person, or even just a few. Why not show everyone in the world that he's real and all this fighting would stop?
And why are the only "witnesses" from Jo's inner circle? Again, why would god only reveal himself to that pedophilic and polygamist nutjob?

And Truthspeaker, so you admit that Jo was a pedophile? Nice.

 

[Arawyn]

So Jo lost the plates? lol.
And is Jo now a god?
And if god really did reveal himself.... to mormons, why didn't god show himself in the same way to everyone, including non-mormons?
Why is it that god only reveals himself to one person, or even just a few. Why not show everyone in the world that he's real and all this fighting would stop?
And why are the only "witnesses" from Jo's inner circle? Again, why would god only reveal himself to that pedophilic and polygamist nutjob?

And Truthspeaker, so you admit that Jo was a pedophile? Nice.

How old were your ancestors during those times when they got married? Hmmm?

 

[Avatar4321]

So Jo lost the plates? lol.

No. He didn't lose the plates

And is Jo now a god?

I have no reason to believe he is yet. Final judgment has not occured. And Joseph to the best of my knowledge, has not been resurrected yet.

And if god really did reveal himself.... to mormons, why didn't god show himself in the same way to everyone, including non-mormons?

Because many non-mormons refuse to use the methods mormons use to ask God in the name of Christ. Those that do become mormon and lose credibility in your eyes.

The Lord will reveal the Book of Mormon to a non-mormon the same way He will to a mormon. He will reveal His Son the same way to a non-mormon as He does to a Mormon. If you are confident He wont, why not take the test and find out? We can get you a Book of Mormon for free.

Why is it that god only reveals himself to one person, or even just a few. Why not show everyone in the world that he's real and all this fighting would stop?

Because you dont understand human nature if you believe that. There are people who will deny that the world is round or that the earth circles the Sun. You think God appearing to the world isnt going to change who they are? The time will come when the Lord does appear before the world. That time is not yet but soon. In the mean time, we have the mission to prepare the world and make it ready for a time when Christ will once again walk it. The Lord understands the timing and has His reasons. And His reasons are to provide an opportunity for those who dont believe to repent and come to Him.

And why are the only "witnesses" from Jo's inner circle? Again, why would god only reveal himself to that pedophilic and polygamist nutjob?

Why did Christ appear only to His disciples? The fact still remains there are witnesses and convincing ones considering they still held to their testimonies despite falling out with Joseph and losing all benefits of the faith for a time

And Truthspeaker, so you admit that Jo was a pedophile? Nice.

I highly doubt he would considering there is zero evidence that he was a pedophile. Tell me, do you have any evidence that Joseph had any sexual relations with anyone other than his wife Emma?

 

[Ceasaro]

WoW!

So where are the plates?
Ok Jo's no god, but how many gods are there anyways?
So I have to read and agree with your mormon book to see and know god? That's doesn't even make any sense. So your tiny minority of mormons are the only ones who have this god thing right?
"There are people who will deny that the world is round or that the earth circles the Sun." LOL, I didn't know that. Outside of insane asylums, of course.

" His reasons are to provide an opportunity for those who dont believe to repent and come to Him."

Why doesn't he just do an interview on CNN and get it over with? Again, that makes no sense.

"Why did Christ appear only to His disciples?" I never said he did. Christians suffer from the same lack of reasoning.

Truthguy said Jo slept with minors.

Arawyn: we're talking about holy people, try and keep up please.

 

[Arawyn]

WoW!

So where are the plates?
Ok Jo's no god, but how many gods are there anyways?
So I have to read and agree with your mormon book to see and know god? That's doesn't even make any sense. So your tiny minority of mormons are the only ones who have this god thing right?
"There are people who will deny that the world is round or that the earth circles the Sun." LOL, I didn't know that. Outside of insane asylums, of course.

" His reasons are to provide an opportunity for those who dont believe to repent and come to Him."

Why doesn't he just do an interview on CNN and get it over with? Again, that makes no sense.

"Why did Christ appear only to His disciples?" I never said he did. Christians suffer from the same lack of reasoning.

Truthguy said Jo slept with minors.

Arawyn: we're talking about holy people, try and keep up please.

Oh, so there's a different set of standards? Well, Joseph and Mary were married when Mary hit puberty.

 

[Truthspeaker]

WoW!

So where are the plates?
Ok Jo's no god, but how many gods are there anyways?
So I have to read and agree with your mormon book to see and know god? That's doesn't even make any sense. So your tiny minority of mormons are the only ones who have this god thing right?
"There are people who will deny that the world is round or that the earth circles the Sun." LOL, I didn't know that. Outside of insane asylums, of course.

" His reasons are to provide an opportunity for those who dont believe to repent and come to Him."

Why doesn't he just do an interview on CNN and get it over with? Again, that makes no sense.

"Why did Christ appear only to His disciples?" I never said he did. Christians suffer from the same lack of reasoning.

Truthguy said Jo slept with minors.

Arawyn: we're talking about holy people, try and keep up please.

Cesaro, It seems you are 40% interested in learning why we think the way we do and 60% interested in being sarcastic. You aren't going to get anywhere with the sarcasm. You ask the sarcastic questions as if there is no answer. But they really are quite easily dealt with if you care to know truthfully. So to answer your questions:
1. The plates were ordered to be given back to the angel Moroni for safekeeping as Joseph went to such extreme measures to hide them from mobs and thieves that it was taking up too much of his time from the ministry. Once the purpose of the plates was fulfilled(translation), there was no more need for the burden of protecting them from thieves who wholeheartedly believed he had them on account of the testimonies of trusted men in the community,however mormon. he was losing sleep and constantly had his life threatened while he had the plates. The lord told him the purpose was fulfilled so he could attend to more pressing duties in building the church. It was also foretold the plates would also be brought forth to the naysayers before it's all said and done. Everyone will eventually see and touch for themselves.

2. Jesus said in the Bible there are Gods many and Lord's many. If there is more than one than there is no difference between 2 and 1000.

3. It's always been a minority who know the mysteries of God. That's why they're called mysteries. In order to know God you need to have your own personal private soul searching and prayers with God. He will reveal to you the way you will best understand. It could come in the form of a book, it could come in the form of another person. It could be a vision. Joseph never read the book of mormon in order to get a vision. He didn't even expect a vision. He just wanted to know what church to join as a 14 year old boy. He had no idea how God was going to answer his prayer but he believed he would get an answer. You need to do the same thing. We all do. the answers come in different ways. And if we are the only ones who really understand the most about God's plan then it doesn't even matter, because we don't think we are better than others. We don't think we are the only ones to receive the ultimate reward from God. That's not our place to judge. Part of God's plan is the beautiful truth that each individual will stand to be judged of Jesus for the deeds done in the body and the cleanliness of their heart. The church you belong to will largely be irrelevant. The book of Mormon states "For charity is the pure love of Christ, and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him."
Who can say anything negative about that piece of eternal truth. It is statements like this that make our religion refreshing to us. That make us not worry as much about some of the injustices in the world.

4. Why doesn't he do an interview on CNN? Because that would defeat the whole purpose of us learning the principle of faith. The reason we had our memory of the pre-Earth life wiped away was because there would have been no test. God wants to test our ability to accept truth as we go through life and learn piece by piece. He wants to test a lot of other things too. Like our ability to endure pain and suffering without blaming God for everything that goes wrong. Like finding out how selfish we will ultimately be. How will we treat the poor? How will we react when we truly comprehend the truth? Will we make ourselves available to serve others? Will we hoard all our riches to ourselves? Will we do our best, no matter what the circumstances? If Jesus appeared and told us everything to do, he would take away our choices, and wouldn't discover who we truly are. Plus if Jesus appeared on CNN the message would only reach the liberals

 

[Truthspeaker]

WoW!

So where are the plates?
Ok Jo's no god, but how many gods are there anyways?
So I have to read and agree with your mormon book to see and know god? That's doesn't even make any sense. So your tiny minority of mormons are the only ones who have this god thing right?
"There are people who will deny that the world is round or that the earth circles the Sun." LOL, I didn't know that. Outside of insane asylums, of course.

" His reasons are to provide an opportunity for those who dont believe to repent and come to Him."

Why doesn't he just do an interview on CNN and get it over with? Again, that makes no sense.

"Why did Christ appear only to His disciples?" I never said he did. Christians suffer from the same lack of reasoning.

Truthguy said Jo slept with minors.

Arawyn: we're talking about holy people, try and keep up please.

Also, when you say "Jo" slept with minors. that is entirely incorrect. Today a minor is someone under the age of 18 by law. That law didn't exist until the united states created it in the 1930's. The law isn't accepted in all of the countries in the world even today, how much less than back in Joseph Smith's time. Also, these "minors" you talk about were his legally and lawfully married wives. Consent not only given by the women themselves but by their fathers and mothers who approved of their daughters choices. Women in those times were grown up by the time they were 14. They were trained in those days and parts for motherhood from birth. They knew they were eligible shortly after puberty and were far more mature than most 18 year olds today. Again I need to repeat, they made their own choices to marry Joseph. You must understand history and why things are different today. If you grew up in those times you would think nothing of it.