The Truth about Mormons

[-Cp]

And Just what is it that you would like to know about "magic underwear"?

Why do mormon's wear it?

 

[-Cp]

How valuable would it be to get a chance to talk to Joseph Smith today and any of the Biblical authors for just 5 minutes?

This is where mormons fail - Joe was NOT a "biblical author" - he was just a dude who obviously had too many "meds" one day...

 

[Avatar4321]

This is where mormons fail - Joe was NOT a "biblical author" - he was just a dude who obviously had too many "meds" one day...

If drugs is all it takes to do what Joseph did, Id like to know what drugs he was taking and where I can get some.

 

[Truthspeaker]

And Just what is it that you would like to know about "magic underwear"?

Why do mormon's wear it?

We wear the sacred garment as a private reminder to keep the commandments of God.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How valuable would it be to get a chance to talk to Joseph Smith today and any of the Biblical authors for just 5 minutes?

This is where mormons fail - Joe was NOT a "biblical author" - he was just a dude who obviously had too many "meds" one day...

Intelligent, thought provoking statement. Where is the substance? Or substances Joseph was taking?

Why can't I find a normal person who wants to engage in a respectful dialogue about our faith.

 

[Avatar4321]

Intelligent, thought provoking statement. Where is the substance? Or substances Joseph was taking?

Why can't I find a normal person who wants to engage in a respectful dialogue about our faith.

Since when is anyone normal? Or respectful?

However, im not sure you give them the chance. Dont mean to be mean or anything. I think you just want to contend with people too much. I don't think im much better. Its difficult not to get defensive and mean when talking about stuff thats personal to us when its under attack. I think if we try harder to be respectful, we will get more respect from people. And if we don't at least we tried.

 

[-Cp]

And Just what is it that you would like to know about "magic underwear"?

Why do mormon's wear it?

We wear the sacred garment as a private reminder to keep the commandments of God.

But that's just IT there is NOTHING "Sacred" about those garments... they're just a piece of cloth..

 

[-Cp]

How valuable would it be to get a chance to talk to Joseph Smith today and any of the Biblical authors for just 5 minutes?

This is where mormons fail - Joe was NOT a "biblical author" - he was just a dude who obviously had too many "meds" one day...

Intelligent, thought provoking statement. Where is the substance? Or substances Joseph was taking?

Why can't I find a normal person who wants to engage in a respectful dialogue about our faith.

Just sayin... how the hell else does someone dream up some story about finding some golden plates and crap?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Why do mormon's wear it?

We wear the sacred garment as a private reminder to keep the commandments of God.

But that's just IT there is NOTHING "Sacred" about those garments... they're just a piece of cloth..

Sacred to me. Not sacred to you.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Intelligent, thought provoking statement. Where is the substance? Or substances Joseph was taking?

Why can't I find a normal person who wants to engage in a respectful dialogue about our faith.

Since when is anyone normal? Or respectful?

However, im not sure you give them the chance. Dont mean to be mean or anything. I think you just want to contend with people too much. I don't think im much better. Its difficult not to get defensive and mean when talking about stuff thats personal to us when its under attack. I think if we try harder to be respectful, we will get more respect from people. And if we don't at least we tried.

I know I may sometimes be a little rough around the edges. Nobody's perfect but I generally try to be respectful to those who deserve it. In times like these I think of what Jesus or Joseph Smith were like in discussions. The sharp rebukes they would give could often times be considered rude or retaliatory. Certainly many of their comments in the Bible or newspaper quotes in the early 1800's enflamed their enemies. So I know that I can't really avoid getting some people hot under the collar. When Jesus would say, you are either with me or against me and that his word was like a sword to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow, I'm sure some people thought he was very arrogant when he said that. Or when he said he was the great I AM.
Joseph Smith said many times that he would "whip sectarianism." It's no wonder a lot of people who were sectarians got enflamed at him. It's a frustrated anger that causes people to misjudge his intentions.
You and I are doomed to suffer these reactions all our lives as long as we uphold the beliefs of our religion.
Because really, from an outside perspective, what we claim is outrageous and arrogant. It's the most ridiculous thing to believe in and sometimes I step back and laugh because It really is the most far fetched thing ever to believe in! But the reason I believe in it still is because I know that truth can be more amazing than fiction and when I really took the time to investigate the wild claims of the church, They all stack up. And I mean REALLY REALLY REALLY took the time. It takes time to build a relationship of trust with anyone. How much more time does it take to develop a relationship with God, whom you have never seen(most likely). Once I developed that relationship, I got the confirmation through the Holy Ghost in my heart.


but yes I may be a little abbrasive.

 

[-Cp]

We wear the sacred garment as a private reminder to keep the commandments of God.

But that's just IT there is NOTHING "Sacred" about those garments... they're just a piece of cloth..

Sacred to me. Not sacred to you.

Being "sacred" to you does not make them "sacred"...

 

[-Cp]

Once I developed that relationship, I got the confirmation through the Holy Ghost in my heart.

Uh-huh, sure ya did.....

So did these people:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6KGZ4UQjgc[/ame]

It's always scary to me when people use emotion to validate truth...

 

[Truthspeaker]

Once I developed that relationship, I got the confirmation through the Holy Ghost in my heart.

Uh-huh, sure ya did.....

So did these people:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6KGZ4UQjgc]YouTube - God Is Hilarious![/ame]

It's always scary to me when people use emotion to validate truth...

I am not going to watch the video if those people are not mormons. Because I don't base my decisions on emotion alone. It goes much deeper than that. It's a combination of all the elements: Intellectual, spiritual, and emotional. If it doesn't add up in all ways, then I would stop paying tithing and stop practicing the rigorous beliefs of my church.

 

[Avatar4321]

But that's just IT there is NOTHING "Sacred" about those garments... they're just a piece of cloth..

Anything can be sacred if the people who believe it such make it sacred. Even bread and wine.

 

[Avatar4321]

Just sayin... how the hell else does someone dream up some story about finding some golden plates and crap?

Same thing can be said about people rising from the dead. Maybe he didn't dream it up. The witnesses seemed convinced that their were plates even after they had their falling outs with Joseph.

People usually dont voluntarily go to their death for something they make up. The behavior of the witnesses dont make much sense unless they saw what they claimed to have seen either.

Ive seen people claim he made it all up. But having studied it, there are so many things that just dont make sense if he did make it up. Im certain Joseph believed what He was saying. But if he was a lunatic what about everyone else?

The Three witnesses of the Book of Mormon are an interesting collection of people. None of their behavior makes any sense if they knew it was all some fraud. Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer all claimed to see the plates and heard the angel declare the Book of Mormon true. All three of them had a falling out with Joseph and were excommunicated from the Church. Yet all three of them held to their testimony.

I've read letters between David and Oliver which occured after Joseph's death. Even though they had their falling out with Joseph they still held to their testimony that they Saw the plates and the Angel. Oliver gave up a promising political career and eventually went west to rejoin the Church knowing that if he did he would not have the same authority he previously had in the Church. Martin likewise went west to rejoin the Church. David, while never rejoining the Church, made it a point to go to a reporter prior to his death and reaffirm that he saw the plates and the angel.

There were other witnesses, some of whom had similiar experiences. But these are the main three. Their behavior doesn't make any sense if it was all dreamt up. If it was some sort of conspiracy between the 4 of them, it doesnt make sense that 3 of the 4 would continue reaffirming the story after they lost all reason to keep up the scam and every reason to end it.

Nor does it explain the behavior of the other witnesses. Or explain the witnesses of miracle healings. Accurate prophecies. And many other things.

There is just too much to dismiss it as all dreamt up.

 

[Eightball]

Once I developed that relationship, I got the confirmation through the Holy Ghost in my heart.

Uh-huh, sure ya did.....

So did these people:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6KGZ4UQjgc]YouTube - God Is Hilarious![/ame]

It's always scary to me when people use emotion to validate truth...

Dead on Dude! Faith is not defined a result of emotions/dreams/internal fuzzies, confirming something as an objective reality.

The Holy Spirit does not work that way. Just check out what Jesus says is the work of the H.S. in the bible. It counsels, and confirms God's Word, and also Glorifies God through the life of the true believer who is indwelt with the H.S..

The Holy Spirit does not confirm 1830 gospels by scam artist/false prophets, nor any of the crazy doctrines that J.S. and successive false LDS prophets proclaimed.

Faith is not a feeling, nor an emotion. God has blessed every human being with emotions or feelings to enhance and make our experiences of life/reality special, but emotions, dreams, visions are not the way we are supposed to base our faith in God.

The Pentacostal, and Charismatic Christian movements often get side-tracked with the "experiential", and as a result many true believers become side-tracked, and misled into false beliefs, and other religions.

Satan is an old hand at working in the experiential/dreams, visions, fuzzy feelings, realm in order to guide Christians and potential Christians off-track.

Sadly, when the experiences mysteriously disappear, the person is left "wanting", not unlike an addict. They become emotions junkies, and without the good feelings, they are unable to exercise true faith that stands strong against feelings that go against the truth. Depression insues, and they drop away from their religion.
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Romans
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Faith does not come by visions, dreams, warm feelings. The Holy Spirit confirms scripture, within the true believer's soul. The Bereans were a perfect example of believers/Christians testing a message to make sure they weren't being duped/misled. Just look up what Paul said of the Bereans for testing his message to them. He was not angered, but encouraged, that they went to scripture to make sure his message was not misleading them from true faith in God.

It absolutely baffles me and millions of other Christians how an omnipotent God, can become a "weak" woosey-god as the LDS church has made Him, by claiming that scripture is corrupted by man over the years, and their religion has been corrected this by New York scam artist Joseph Smith Jr.'s wonderful tale of several hundred pound golden plates with, an unknown reformed Heiroglyphics language scratched on them as the bases of a belief system of faith. Even Moses received tablets from God in the known language of the people of Israel or of that time. Why Egyptian, and why a language to this day that has not been recognized as existent? Wouldn't God want to make His message plain and simple for all mankind. Why the weird, unsubstantiated heiroglyphics?

Their/LDS religion has all the paw prints of a very intelligent being's invention, namely Satan's paw prints or finger prints. It has destroyed Jesus' divinity, lowering Him to the status of mere man, of created origin, has thrown in a convoluted Hubbard/Scientology style planetary-extratrestrial origin to man, and packaged it in "apple pie and the American flag" to the novices or unknowing, and hooked millions into this smiley faced cult.

Scratch the surface of Pleasantville USA Mormonism, and you find the most God-blasphemous teachings and an elitists heirarchy of elders, teachers, priesthoods, and male domination with recent anti-African rascism. Paste on their pro-Prop 8 support to make them appear to be "mainstream" America, and "Wa La!", you have a very well laid-out scheme of evangelization.

The LDS church is definitely the "wide road" as described in the bible in Revelations. It is covered in a veneer of patriotism, "Leave to Beaverism", yet is insidious in it's teachings in respect to the Holy Bible, and Jesus' teachings found withing the bible.
***********
Are Mormons bad people? Absolutely not! God loves them with an eternal passion, and wants them to come to salvation just like the rest of the unsaved world.

Sadly, cults have such a pull and hold on their followers that very few will ever arise and emerge out of it's hold, and come to faith in Christ of the Holy Bible. They will not, out of fear, being potentially excluded from friendships, job discrimination, loss of family ties, etc.. The number of ex-Mormons who have lost jobs, or possible promotions in companies that are filled with high numbers of their church members in managerial positions is beyond count. H.P. in Vacouver/Camas, Washington is filled with Mormon employees, and if you aren't a church member, don't try to get anywhere in that branch of the company in Camas. We have friends who worked there, and actually joined the LDS church inorder to be accepted on even terms and have a shot at promotion and a job-future. They left the church, as they didn't realize the insidious teachings below the surface. They were mislead Born Again Christians, and they ended up leaving H.P. for other pastures of employment. These ex-Mormons are treated with such maligned disregard, and distaste. They are shunned in communities, where the Mormon population is large. They often lose familial contacts because they choose biblical Christian faith over J.S. Jr's Satanic lies. It's downright pitiful.

The saddest part of course and the greatest "hold" is that "burning bosom" type experience that "confirmed" to them that Mormonism was the truth. They believe a subjective experiential moment as the truth, and the bible says, "don't!". People see the virgin Mary in cloud formation, or a shadow or stain on a building. The Mormon wants to believe that their gospel is the truth, and Satan obliges, as he has done for centuries in order to lead man away from the "I AM"..
*********

 

[Avatar4321]

Dead on Dude! Faith is not defined a result of emotions/dreams/internal fuzzies, confirming something as an objective reality.

The Holy Spirit does not work that way. Just check out what Jesus says is the work of the H.S. in the bible. It counsels, and confirms God's Word, and also Glorifies God through the life of the true believer who is indwelt with the H.S..

Here is how the scriptures say the Spirit works

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (Luke 24:30-32)

37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37-38)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23)

The fact that you say otherwise tells me the following: You've never experienced this.

When you experience the power and glory of the Holy Ghost, you cannot claim they are fuzzy feelings. When you feel the power of God you are compelled to be humble. No honest person can feel the Spirit and deny His influence upon them. Even if the Spirit whispers to do something that we dont want to do. When we follow the Spirit, it will be correct.

How do you know the Bible is the Word of God unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to you? And how do you deny how it feels if you've experienced it?

You believe the Bible to be true. And that is good. But you haven't had the Spirit tell you it's true. Because when the Spirit speaks there is no doubt left. And until you recognize the Spirit, you will never learn the Mysteries of God. No matter how much you read the Bible. Youll keep trying to understand it with your own abilities.

I can tell you that I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true because the Holy Spirit told me. I felt the power, the love, the glory, and I heard the voice of the Lord speak to me. And who am I to deny God?

I dont expect you to take my word for it. In fact, I dont want you to. I just want you to read the Book of Mormon for yourself and pray with real intent to know whether it's true. Because I know the Holy Ghost will tell you the truth of all things. "If any of you lack wisdom, let Him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not. But ask in faith, nothing waivering." (James 1:5-6).

You can do the same with the Bible. God isnt silent. He is more than happy to reveal Himself to those who seek Him in faith. The more I learn the more I realize how little faith men really have. Including myself.

Do you really think the Bible is all that Christ wants us to have? Or do you think He wants us to have living faith? Do you think He wants to rely on the revelations of those who came before us? Or do you think He wants to give revelations to us? Im inclined to believe the latter.

 

[Eightball]

Dead on Dude! Faith is not defined a result of emotions/dreams/internal fuzzies, confirming something as an objective reality.

The Holy Spirit does not work that way. Just check out what Jesus says is the work of the H.S. in the bible. It counsels, and confirms God's Word, and also Glorifies God through the life of the true believer who is indwelt with the H.S..

Here is how the scriptures say the Spirit works

30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (Luke 24:30-32)

37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37-38)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal 5:22-23)

The fact that you say otherwise tells me the following: You've never experienced this.

When you experience the power and glory of the Holy Ghost, you cannot claim they are fuzzy feelings. When you feel the power of God you are compelled to be humble. No honest person can feel the Spirit and deny His influence upon them. Even if the Spirit whispers to do something that we dont want to do. When we follow the Spirit, it will be correct.

How do you know the Bible is the Word of God unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to you? And how do you deny how it feels if you've experienced it?

You believe the Bible to be true. And that is good. But you haven't had the Spirit tell you it's true. Because when the Spirit speaks there is no doubt left. And until you recognize the Spirit, you will never learn the Mysteries of God. No matter how much you read the Bible. Youll keep trying to understand it with your own abilities.

I can tell you that I know the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true because the Holy Spirit told me. I felt the power, the love, the glory, and I heard the voice of the Lord speak to me. And who am I to deny God?

I dont expect you to take my word for it. In fact, I dont want you to. I just want you to read the Book of Mormon for yourself and pray with real intent to know whether it's true. Because I know the Holy Ghost will tell you the truth of all things. "If any of you lack wisdom, let Him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally and upbraideth not. But ask in faith, nothing waivering." (James 1:5-6).

You can do the same with the Bible. God isnt silent. He is more than happy to reveal Himself to those who seek Him in faith. The more I learn the more I realize how little faith men really have. Including myself.

Do you really think the Bible is all that Christ wants us to have? Or do you think He wants us to have living faith? Do you think He wants to rely on the revelations of those who came before us? Or do you think He wants to give revelations to us? Im inclined to believe the latter.

Your whole expose' is "feel, feel, feel". You use bible scripture to support your premise, yet your church's doctrinal premise stand on the belief that the bible is not the final word, as it is corrupted by man.

There is induction methods and deduction methods when reading/studying scripture. One is not suppose to "make" the bible say what they want it to say, but to let scripture speak to them, though it may not be what they want to hear/read. The bible speaks myriads against Mormon doctrine.

Your limited bible knowledge using joy, peace, love, etc.. as a resulting human response to God's indwelling Spirit, is not the ultimate "compass" to determine His presence. The bible says over and over that scripture is the final deciding factor over all other alleged evidences. So, what will it be........Take a bit of bible here and there that backs up your paradigm, and ignore that which doesn't. It's either the Word of God or it is isn't.

Your presumptuous statement that I haven't enjoyed those fruits of the Spirit are totally unfounded, but just a defensive counter to my last post.

In the bible there are types of love, "Agape, phileo, and eros", Jesus, and His disciples said that "Agape" is the most important, as it encompasses the "servanthood" that Christ brought to mankind that truly summarizes God's nature towards us and what we should express to others.

Phileo is the type of love that "delights" in someone or something.
Eros is sexual attraction or love expressed sexually.

These all make up in totality, what love is according to the bible/Christ, but "Agape"; Christ and disciples said is the one to focus on. It's not feeling oriented, but is an objective decision that can indeed be motivated by both mind and emotions, but in the end is exercised by our will, or "chooser".

It is expressed when we hug and kiss someone, even though we are angry at them or have been hurt by them. In other words it goes deeper than feelings.

Feelings based decision making is most-dangerous as it can lead to big mistakes and a lot of burnt bridges needing mending.

Just as the LDS doctrine stresses for all to pray for a "message" from God, confirming Mormonism as the truth, so the radical Charismatic/Pentacostal Christian can fall into the same trap. It creates a addiction to feelings based decision making in an every increasing rate.

The joy and peace that you experience is not the Holy Spirits authorship. That's just feel-goodism, based on your present state of non-life-stress conditions.

The real test of faith, and belief isn't measured in the feel-good times, but in the trenches of life's valleys i.e... death of a loved one, terminal illnesses, loss of job, divorce, prolonged sickness, out-of-the-blue tragediess, disappointments, elimination of life goals/hopes...etc...

Christ and His disciples said that life wouldn't be a cake-walk, but would be hard, but He did say that if anyone took-up His "yoke" it would be much better/easier than going it alone with one's own "yoke".

Benny Hinn, is a perfect example of a preacher that stresses feelings-based faith.

Sadly, I've met many folks from the very Charismatic/feelings oriented faith movement, and their ability to understand that faith is objective in it's goal and exercise is very foreign to them.

In fact as Christians, they are very immature, as they are so programmed to expect a "miracle" to rescue them out of lifes hardships that they never grow in endurance, which leads to greater character and wisdom.

They go to church, raise their hands, speak in alleged tongues, have visions, have messages or words of communication from God during worship/prayer, then go home Sunday afternoon after church, knock off a couple six packs of beer, give the finger in road rage to some rude driver, and basically live in a way through the week that would scarcely seem Christ-like.

I've seen it! I've visited these churches for weeks at a time. There are distinct differences to the personalities of the various body's of Christ(Church's). Just as Revelations laid into the various churches one by one and prophesied either for or against them because of their behavior, it is no different today.

Satan has been a deceiver from the beginning. God has been omnipotent and truthful from eternity past through eternity future, as there is no beginning or end to Him. He is pre-existent. Satan is not pre-existent, but is a created being of great power, beauty, and influence, and many theologians believe that he once was a beautiful being called a Seraphim, as mentioned in Isaiah in the Old Testament. Seraphims were angels who stood before the throne of God, and announced God's glory. They also had 3 sets of wings as they hovered about the throne.

Satan/Lucifer was cast from God's presence to the earth, and infact Jesus told His disciples He witnessed Satan's plummet to earth. Christ was tempted by Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, but being God in flesh, resisted Satans crafty ways to beckon Jesus' worship of Him.

They were not brothers as Mormon teaching says. The bible does not teach that in anyway. Satan is a created being, that with free-will rebelled with pride and wanted it all. Call it delusional, or whatever, that's what happened.

Satan may have been created before high technology, but he is no neophite at beguiling mankind into following anything but God. Some folks wonder why he does this if he's bound for destruction? Delusional beings don't live in complete reality do they? Self delusion causes one to hope a believe in that which is absurd and non-objective. Satan lives with one big old dose of delusion, or one big old grudge to take all of humanity with him to the pit as he can before his day is up and he is cast into the fiery furnace in chains.

Satan knows any and all things about the world. He does not have a bronze age mentality, but is keen to 21st mankind as well as B.C. man. Little does he know, but he is a "tool" in God's greater work of salvation, much like what happened in the book of Job. God allows, but does not author sin and mishap upon mankind.

Character, and wisdom is not forged on the mountain-tops of life, but in the valleys of closed doors. God so loves His creation that he allows many things to occur in our lives that seem so stressful and negative at first analysis. Yet that stressful time is actually a time of potential growth for us as Christian, and for the non-Christian, a time to become convinced that they are not the "pilots" of their lives from birth to death. Call it the old 2x4 across the cranium, but God knows us inside and out, as He created us and knew us before we formed in our mother's wombs.

The bible says that many false prophets will arise that will say, "Here is the Christ!", yet beware. There will be many false Christs concocted by men and women with deluded mines, and many who do it for totally selfish ambition(Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland).

Joseph Smith was once a Christian church member, but most likely was never "born again". He like many Voltarian inspired people didn't want to live within what they saw as biblical constraints. Rather than try to seek God's wisdom, they relied on their own wisdom as it avoided responsibility for sin.

So polygamy was green lighted, as well as blood attonement, all humanistic, Romans chapter one type degradations of the human soul. Taking of underage girls in marriage, or pedophelia/sexual predation of children, covered in religiosity resulted.

There are so many contradictions within the doctrinal statements and stances of past to present LDS prophets, yet the church chugs on, ignoring these blaring inconsistencies.

Avatar: If only you really knew or experienced the fruit or love of the Holy Spirit, and the resultant joy, and peace that even is experienced in the lowest points of life, you'd understand the feelings-based belief, is like shallow soil with a rock hard ground underneath.

Just as the seed and the sower parable by Jesus said that the truth fell upon a thin layer of soil started to take root, but the roots went down and hit the hard soil, and then withered and died, so it is with feelings based faith. It can't crack the hard undersoil that produces or sustains growth in the believer.

Also, the seeds that fell on rocky ground were picked away by the birds of the air. That the biblical truths that are blown-off right from the start by the individual. It hardens the soul, and makes it even more difficult for that person to come to the base of the cross, in totally tranparency, and contrition.

Balaam claimed to be a prophet of God, but gave into worldly temptations just like Joseph Smith Jr. and later LDS prophets. His end came by the sword as ordered by God.

 

[Truthspeaker]

8-Ball. You never cease to astound me with your lack of knowledge of what we believe. Joseph Smith did not marry underage girls. Polygamy was not "green lighted". It was commanded in the same way Abraham was commanded. I guess you just don't get that there was no condoning of sexual exploitation of children. The only exploitation I know of was the raping of our children and girls by missouri mobs filled with ignorance and hatred of our people.

I'm not sure of your ability to listen and comprehend the argument of another person. What "hidden insidious doctrines" are you talking about since I have already established consistently your misunderstanding of the blood atonement, polygamy and racism arguments?

As for the "feel good" religion we live. You need to understand the purpose of life. To have Joy. What are we ALL trying to do? be happy and find true joy in our lives. Christ taught this. If then, that is the purpose of life, then how does following your heart in doing what you know is right and will make you genuinely happy and fulfilled, come from the devil? In fact as you continue to ignore, those things are the fruits of the spirit of God. That's why we believe what we believe, because it brings us joy. You are not going to change our faith. We have proven it to ourselves. We're not even trying to prove it to you. I just don't understand why you are swimming against the current in trying to pull down the faith of a people who are solid and happy in their beliefs in Christ.

Why don't you go spend your time practicing your religion and building your own faith and lifestyle? It is one of 2 reasons:

1. You are on a whole hearted mission to save the lost mormon souls.(which if that is the case I can teach you a few people skills which will help endear yourself to the lost souls you are trying to convert. For one, have a calm demeanor that is non-insulting.)

2. You really don't have a faith and since your whole past religion has been torn down by truthful statements in this forum, you are only left to kick against the pricks, trying to save face in front of people who don't even care if you are embarrassed and are not trying to embarrass you. Trying to grasp at straws for reasons to make yourself look good and others look bad. This is not a battle for me. It is a battle for you. One in which you don't have to fight. All the bruises you have sustained are not from me or Avatar. They are from yourself trying to run through a plexiglass wall and beat me up.

which reason is it?

 

[Avatar4321]

Your whole expose' is "feel, feel, feel". You use bible scripture to support your premise, yet your church's doctrinal premise stand on the belief that the bible is not the final word, as it is corrupted by man.

I was unaware I had to accept the Bible as the final word in order to cite it as teaching correct principles. The notion is absurd to me. It's one of my scriptures, why the heck wouldnt I cite it when it specifically explains experiences with the Spirit?

The real question here is: If you believe the Bible is the "Final Word", why do you pretend the Spirit doesnt work by pricking our hearts, or through the feelings of joy, peace etc that the Bible specifically says?

Also, Im not concerned how I or anyone else feels. Im concerned with what the Spirit says. The scriptures say the fruits of the Spirit produce certain feelings. Who am I to deny that? especially when Ive had very clear experiences were the Spirit has spoken to me and Ive felt the power, glory, and love of God.

So no I dont accept the Bible as the final authority. I accept God as the final authority. You might not think its important to seek out and listen to the Holy Spirit, but I do. Because we must live off the Spirit if we are to be saved. We must recieve revelation and learn from God. This is what the scriptures you claim to believe say. So why are you upset when I actually try to live it?

There is induction methods and deduction methods when reading/studying scripture. One is not suppose to "make" the bible say what they want it to say, but to let scripture speak to them, though it may not be what they want to hear/read. The bible speaks myriads against Mormon doctrine.

I dont make the Bible say what I want to say. I seek out the Spirit and God's will. Something youd rather ignore. I dont know what you have against seeking the Holy Ghost. He will teach you things you never dreamed.

Your limited bible knowledge using joy, peace, love, etc.. as a resulting human response to God's indwelling Spirit, is not the ultimate "compass" to determine His presence. The bible says over and over that scripture is the final deciding factor over all other alleged evidences. So, what will it be........Take a bit of bible here and there that backs up your paradigm, and ignore that which doesn't. It's either the Word of God or it is isn't.

Are the fruits of the Spirit joy, peace, love? or not? It's not a difficult question. The bible teaches it clearly, So why dont you accepte it?

The Bible is clear that the Spirit will teach us the truth of all things. That we must repent and be baptized and recieve the Holy Ghost. That we must live off every word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God. You dont know what the Bible says unless you Go to God and have Him teach you.

Your presumptuous statement that I haven't enjoyed those fruits of the Spirit are totally unfounded, but just a defensive counter to my last post.

Im not presuming anything. You are explicitly stating that that's not how the Spirit works. Which tells me you don't know how the Spirit works because the Scriptures say the Spirit works that way and personal experience does.

In the bible there are types of love, "Agape, phileo, and eros", Jesus, and His disciples said that "Agape" is the most important, as it encompasses the "servanthood" that Christ brought to mankind that truly summarizes God's nature towards us and what we should express to others.

Phileo is the type of love that "delights" in someone or something.
Eros is sexual attraction or love expressed sexually.

Perfectly, fine but irrelevant to the conersation.

These all make up in totality, what love is according to the bible/Christ, but "Agape"; Christ and disciples said is the one to focus on. It's not feeling oriented, but is an objective decision that can indeed be motivated by both mind and emotions, but in the end is exercised by our will, or "chooser".

It is expressed when we hug and kiss someone, even though we are angry at them or have been hurt by them. In other words it goes deeper than feelings.

Again completely irrelevant to the conversation. We are talking about how to recognize the Holy Spirit. Not what type of love there is.

Feelings based decision making is most-dangerous as it can lead to big mistakes and a lot of burnt bridges needing mending.

Thats all good and true, but we arent talking about feelings based decisions. We are talking about listening and believing the Holy Spirit.

Just as the LDS doctrine stresses for all to pray for a "message" from God, confirming Mormonism as the truth, so the radical Charismatic/Pentacostal Christian can fall into the same trap. It creates a addiction to feelings based decision making in an every increasing rate.

So you think God is going to lie to you?

The joy and peace that you experience is not the Holy Spirits authorship. That's just feel-goodism, based on your present state of non-life-stress conditions.

That isnt what Paul said. Nor is it what the disciples experienced. You can pretend to have a clue what i've experienced but as of right now, my experiences are lined up with the scriptures.

You've provided no alternative in anything you've said. All you've done is say "Nah ah!"

The real test of faith, and belief isn't measured in the feel-good times, but in the trenches of life's valleys i.e... death of a loved one, terminal illnesses, loss of job, divorce, prolonged sickness, out-of-the-blue tragediess, disappointments, elimination of life goals/hopes...etc...

Again totally irrelevant to how you recognize and identify the Spirit.

Christ and His disciples said that life wouldn't be a cake-walk, but would be hard, but He did say that if anyone took-up His "yoke" it would be much better/easier than going it alone with one's own "yoke".

Again, completely irrelevant.

Benny Hinn, is a perfect example of a preacher that stresses feelings-based faith.

Sadly, I've met many folks from the very Charismatic/feelings oriented faith movement, and their ability to understand that faith is objective in it's goal and exercise is very foreign to them.

Again, your post is yelling that you have no clue what the Holy Spirit is like. You've never felt the fruits of the Spirit.

In fact as Christians, they are very immature, as they are so programmed to expect a "miracle" to rescue them out of lifes hardships that they never grow in endurance, which leads to greater character and wisdom.

This is again, completely irrelevant to asking God to recieve guidence. Why exactly do you pray if it's not to learn from the Holy Ghost? How do you except to learn wisdom if you ignore the Holy Spirit.

They go to church, raise their hands, speak in alleged tongues, have visions, have messages or words of communication from God during worship/prayer, then go home Sunday afternoon after church, knock off a couple six packs of beer, give the finger in road rage to some rude driver, and basically live in a way through the week that would scarcely seem Christ-like.

Whatever they do is completely irrelevant to the topic. They can have visions. They can hear God's voice.

I've seen it! I've visited these churches for weeks at a time. There are distinct differences to the personalities of the various body's of Christ(Church's). Just as Revelations laid into the various churches one by one and prophesied either for or against them because of their behavior, it is no different today.

That's all well and good but its irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Satan has been a deceiver from the beginning. God has been omnipotent and truthful from eternity past through eternity future, as there is no beginning or end to Him. He is pre-existent. Satan is not pre-existent, but is a created being of great power, beauty, and influence, and many theologians believe that he once was a beautiful being called a Seraphim, as mentioned in Isaiah in the Old Testament. Seraphims were angels who stood before the throne of God, and announced God's glory. They also had 3 sets of wings as they hovered about the throne.

The scriptures are pretty clear that satan fell from heaven before the earth was. How can he not be pre existant then?

What does it matter what theologians are saying? What matters is what God says. And how the heck are you giong to know what God says if you dont talk with Him and Ask Him? And most important: Listen?

Satan/Lucifer was cast from God's presence to the earth, and infact Jesus told His disciples He witnessed Satan's plummet to earth. Christ was tempted by Satan for 40 days in the wilderness, but being God in flesh, resisted Satans crafty ways to beckon Jesus' worship of Him.

Again completely irrelevant to recognizing and listening to the Spirit.

They were not brothers as Mormon teaching says. The bible does not teach that in anyway. Satan is a created being, that with free-will rebelled with pride and wanted it all. Call it delusional, or whatever, that's what happened

.

The extent of your knowledge of satan rests in theologians. You dont know anything about him. To make this claim is ridiculous.

Satan may have been created before high technology, but he is no neophite at beguiling mankind into following anything but God. Some folks wonder why he does this if he's bound for destruction? Delusional beings don't live in complete reality do they? Self delusion causes one to hope a believe in that which is absurd and non-objective. Satan lives with one big old dose of delusion, or one big old grudge to take all of humanity with him to the pit as he can before his day is up and he is cast into the fiery furnace in chains.

You shouldnt be so obsessed with the devil. You also shouldnt fear him more than you fear God. You shouldnt let your fear of Him keep you from learning from the Heavens.

Satan knows any and all things about the world. He does not have a bronze age mentality, but is keen to 21st mankind as well as B.C. man. Little does he know, but he is a "tool" in God's greater work of salvation, much like what happened in the book of Job. God allows, but does not author sin and mishap upon mankind.

Again my previous comment.

Character, and wisdom is not forged on the mountain-tops of life, but in the valleys of closed doors. God so loves His creation that he allows many things to occur in our lives that seem so stressful and negative at first analysis. Yet that stressful time is actually a time of potential growth for us as Christian, and for the non-Christian, a time to become convinced that they are not the "pilots" of their lives from birth to death. Call it the old 2x4 across the cranium, but God knows us inside and out, as He created us and knew us before we formed in our mother's wombs.

Completely irrelevant.

The bible says that many false prophets will arise that will say, "Here is the Christ!", yet beware. There will be many false Christs concocted by men and women with deluded mines, and many who do it for totally selfish ambition(Robert Tilton, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland).

True, but in mentioning false prophets it acknowledges true prophets.

Joseph Smith was once a Christian church member, but most likely was never "born again". He like many Voltarian inspired people didn't want to live within what they saw as biblical constraints. Rather than try to seek God's wisdom, they relied on their own wisdom as it avoided responsibility for sin.

Biblical constraints? Why should we live within constraints the Bible doesnt require? No where in the Bible does it say believe this book and nothing else. Quite the opposite. It teaches us to seek. to learn. to ask and recieve from the Father.

Let me sum up what you are claiming:

Asking God for truth is satanic and wrong.

Trying to figure out the scriptures on your own is seeking God's wisdom.

You realize you have that completely backwards dont you?

So polygamy was green lighted, as well as blood attonement, all humanistic, Romans chapter one type degradations of the human soul. Taking of underage girls in marriage, or pedophelia/sexual predation of children, covered in religiosity resulted.

You really dont have a clue what you're talking about, do you?

There are so many contradictions within the doctrinal statements and stances of past to present LDS prophets, yet the church chugs on, ignoring these blaring inconsistencies.

easy claim to make. Not so easy to back it up. Especially with someone who has done extensively more study.

Avatar: If only you really knew or experienced the fruit or love of the Holy Spirit, and the resultant joy, and peace that even is experienced in the lowest points of life, you'd understand the feelings-based belief, is like shallow soil with a rock hard ground underneath.

If you had experienced it you wouldnt confuse it with "feelings-based belief".

Just as the seed and the sower parable by Jesus said that the truth fell upon a thin layer of soil started to take root, but the roots went down and hit the hard soil, and then withered and died, so it is with feelings based faith. It can't crack the hard undersoil that produces or sustains growth in the believer.

Completely irrelevant

Also, the seeds that fell on rocky ground were picked away by the birds of the air. That the biblical truths that are blown-off right from the start by the individual. It hardens the soul, and makes it even more difficult for that person to come to the base of the cross, in totally tranparency, and contrition.

Balaam claimed to be a prophet of God, but gave into worldly temptations just like Joseph Smith Jr. and later LDS prophets. His end came by the sword as ordered by God

Assertions that have nothing to do with the topic.

Why does it scare you to ask God for the truth? Seriously, what are you afraid of? Do you think God lies to people? Or do you just have that little faith in God? I mean He has told us He will reveal all things to us. Do you think He cant? Do you think He wont? Do you think It's somehow offensive to ask God??? Seriously, why are you so against it?