The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Word

 

[Truthspeaker]

by the way. who knew this would turn into a hundred pages of dialogue.

 

[Arawyn]

by the way. who knew this would turn into a hundred pages of dialogue.

I've not been on this board for long, but I've been on enough them to know that it does that

We are just a fascinating group of folks

 

[Montrovant]

People usually dont voluntarily go to their death for something they make up. The behavior of the witnesses dont make much sense unless they saw what they claimed to have seen either.

I have seen this sentiment a number of times before, and it always makes me wonder. Does that mean that when people voluntarily go to their death for a faith other than your own, it validates that faith?

I'm not going to argue that such people believe in whatever it is they believe. I accept that people usually will not voluntarily go to their death for something they don't believe. However, the fact that someone is willing to do so only speaks to the strength of their belief, not it's validity.

Sorry to break into this discussion with such a small point!

 

[Avatar4321]

I have seen this sentiment a number of times before, and it always makes me wonder. Does that mean that when people voluntarily go to their death for a faith other than your own, it validates that faith?

I'm not going to argue that such people believe in whatever it is they believe. I accept that people usually will not voluntarily go to their death for something they don't believe. However, the fact that someone is willing to do so only speaks to the strength of their belief, not it's validity.

Sorry to break into this discussion with such a small point!

I never claimed they are valid because they voluntarily went to their deaths. Im saying people dont voluntarily go to their deaths for something they know is a scam. They actually believe it.

Now, just because someone believes it doesnt mean they are correct. But when they try to argue Joseph was a scam artist, it doesnt fit. He believed what he was preaching.

 

[Arawyn]

I have seen this sentiment a number of times before, and it always makes me wonder. Does that mean that when people voluntarily go to their death for a faith other than your own, it validates that faith?

I'm not going to argue that such people believe in whatever it is they believe. I accept that people usually will not voluntarily go to their death for something they don't believe. However, the fact that someone is willing to do so only speaks to the strength of their belief, not it's validity.

Sorry to break into this discussion with such a small point!

I never claimed they are valid because they voluntarily went to their deaths. Im saying people dont voluntarily go to their deaths for something they know is a scam. They actually believe it.

Now, just because someone believes it doesnt mean they are correct. But when they try to argue Joseph was a scam artist, it doesnt fit. He believed what he was preaching.

But I also think it must be discussed about voluntarily going to "your/their" death. Does it mean just willing to commit suicide/allow being murdered for what you believe.....or does it mean willing to face death for your beliefs?

I think Joseph willingly faced death......not voluntarily walked to be murdered.

I'm not articulate enough to explain the difference except maybe that it comes in mindset.

I don't see Joseph thinking (even after being shown what would/could happen) I'm going to kill myself/let myself be murdered to be a martyr for God.

I tend to see Joseph more walking out, after seeing what would/could happen, I will face what comes my way.

KWIM?

 

[Truthspeaker]

I have seen this sentiment a number of times before, and it always makes me wonder. Does that mean that when people voluntarily go to their death for a faith other than your own, it validates that faith?

I'm not going to argue that such people believe in whatever it is they believe. I accept that people usually will not voluntarily go to their death for something they don't believe. However, the fact that someone is willing to do so only speaks to the strength of their belief, not it's validity.

Sorry to break into this discussion with such a small point!

I never claimed they are valid because they voluntarily went to their deaths. Im saying people dont voluntarily go to their deaths for something they know is a scam. They actually believe it.

Now, just because someone believes it doesnt mean they are correct. But when they try to argue Joseph was a scam artist, it doesnt fit. He believed what he was preaching.

But I also think it must be discussed about voluntarily going to "your/their" death. Does it mean just willing to commit suicide/allow being murdered for what you believe.....or does it mean willing to face death for your beliefs?

I think Joseph willingly faced death......not voluntarily walked to be murdered.

I'm not articulate enough to explain the difference except maybe that it comes in mindset.

I don't see Joseph thinking (even after being shown what would/could happen) I'm going to kill myself/let myself be murdered to be a martyr for God.

I tend to see Joseph more walking out, after seeing what would/could happen, I will face what comes my way.

KWIM?

Joseph knew he would be slaughtered. He said so several times. Why did he do it? because he was standing for the principles of being a law abiding citizen. he was willing to die in order to show that he was not a criminal, he was willing to face every charge in court and have himself acquitted even in courts that WANTED to see him hang. There was so little evidence at all the many trials he was acquitted of that the judges and even the prejudiced juries had to throw their hands up and say, this man cannot be reached by the law.

Had he run from illegal arrests he could have been justified because he was innocent. But he chose to face them anyway because it was another opportunity to prove he was not guilty of the vicious rumors ascribed to him. Had he run it would have just given more fuel for anti-mormons to use by saying, "See! If he's so innocent, then why does he run? He must have something to hide, that old devil. We knew he was crooked!"

 

[Ceasaro]

Wasn't Joseph a pedophile and a polygamist?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Wasn't Joseph a pedophile and a polygamist?

no and yes in that order.

 

[Ceasaro]

Wasn't Joseph a pedophile and a polygamist?

no and yes in that order.

So all the females he married were 18+? Not too sure about that.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Wasn't Joseph a pedophile and a polygamist?

no and yes in that order.

So all the females he married were 18+? Not too sure about that.

18 is a random number that has been given as law only in recent times. Such laws did not exist back then. Young girls by age 14 were grown up women. they already were ready for marriage in case the parents thought they were ready. times were different so you can't hold people from different generations to today's standards in regards to the age of wives. None of them were forced and all were given by their parents. Just like in old testament times. It is hardly pedophilia when someone commits to a marriage and provides for the wife in every way she asks for. There was never any rape or anything of the sort. All charges ever brought against Joseph were dropped.

 

[Eightball]

I never claimed they are valid because they voluntarily went to their deaths. Im saying people dont voluntarily go to their deaths for something they know is a scam. They actually believe it.

Now, just because someone believes it doesnt mean they are correct. But when they try to argue Joseph was a scam artist, it doesnt fit. He believed what he was preaching.

But I also think it must be discussed about voluntarily going to "your/their" death. Does it mean just willing to commit suicide/allow being murdered for what you believe.....or does it mean willing to face death for your beliefs?

I think Joseph willingly faced death......not voluntarily walked to be murdered.

I'm not articulate enough to explain the difference except maybe that it comes in mindset.

I don't see Joseph thinking (even after being shown what would/could happen) I'm going to kill myself/let myself be murdered to be a martyr for God.

I tend to see Joseph more walking out, after seeing what would/could happen, I will face what comes my way.

KWIM?

Joseph knew he would be slaughtered. He said so several times. Why did he do it? because he was standing for the principles of being a law abiding citizen. he was willing to die in order to show that he was not a criminal, he was willing to face every charge in court and have himself acquitted even in courts that WANTED to see him hang. There was so little evidence at all the many trials he was acquitted of that the judges and even the prejudiced juries had to throw their hands up and say, this man cannot be reached by the law.

Had he run from illegal arrests he could have been justified because he was innocent. But he chose to face them anyway because it was another opportunity to prove he was not guilty of the vicious rumors ascribed to him. Had he run it would have just given more fuel for anti-mormons to use by saying, "See! If he's so innocent, then why does he run? He must have something to hide, that old devil. We knew he was crooked!"

You are so LDS brainwashed. You've really drank the Kool-aid.

Non-church eyewitness, newspaper reports say that J.S. Jr. did not die a martyr nor was he illegally charged or arrested.
Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He attempted to destroy a towns newspaper press because that paper printed negative stories about him and his group of followers. God forbid, the paper condemned J.S. Jr's polygamous practices as well as other abherent activities.

Smith attacked the very essentials of the 1st Ammendment rights granted to all Americans when he did this deed.
********
You "want" to believe that Mormonism is true, it isn't a matter of objective evidences that your belief is based upon.

You've been taught to believe that your a victim of the big old nasty corrupted biblical Christian world.

Your temple rituals, nearly up to present mocked protestant pastors in a foolish theatrical drama for initiates. You have copied Masonic, occultic handshakes and oaths nearly to the letter in the temple.

Joseph Smith Jr. created a mish mash of beliefs. To this day your "reformed heiroglyphics" allegedly on the golden plates cannot validated by linguists who are astute in Egyptian heiroglyphics.

But you still hang on with such a preponderance of evidence that reveals nothing but inconsistencies.

Your 1830 authored Book of Mormon that trumps the bible has undergone thousands of changes.

You wear undergarments with occultic symbols, aprons not unlike Masonic aprons, have made Jesus into a mere man who became a god, allied Lucifer with this LDS invented Jesus as blood brothers......and on and on.

Yet, you tell biblical Christians that we are off-beam cause the bible isn't trustworthy anymore, cause this J.S. Jr. of sordid, criminal past was selected by God to bring the "true gospel" to the world.

You claim your church as the "true" Christian church, yet it in no way parallels the early Christian church of the N.T. book of Acts. Oh, I forgot, Acts must be corrupted too. That our excuse or "out" for believing in this incredible mish mash of contradictions.

When I say contradictions, I don't say it lightly. Your church has sucked in so many folks who see only it's very thin outward veneer of apple pie, heterosexual marriage, and the American flag. What an incredibly ingenious design, and the bible(oops) says that the Prince of Darkness is one heck of a good designer.

Your church as well as every cult can be identified clearly by one very important method or observation. How does the LDS church deal with Jesus Christ? You have bought into a blasphemous belief that diminishes the Godhood of Christ. In flies in the face of 2,000 years of Christian teaching/history.

To teach or tell initiates or your own members that the bible is not dependable is to diminish the very strength and power of God to "protect" His Word to His creation.

Your church builds it's whole foundation upon the premise that God is weak, and non-involved with mankind, up until your J.S. jr. had his epiphany from God via an angel.

I've asked so many questions, but you've blew them off by saying they are answered, but you haven't.

You can't substantiated archeologically anything in N. or S. America that the Book of Mormon lays out in it's pages.

Every day new ruins and archeological finds in the Middle East, and Southern Europe are validating the bible. The BOM has not one validating piece of archeological evidence to validate it as historical account of history in the New World.

Yet, you still hang on.

You pooh pooh the absolute fact Christian faith is based on evidences that demand a verdict. Instead you elitely raise yourself above others by saying that "I've got the H.S." and it/he talkes to me and validated Mormonism as it gives me happies, and peace.

Happies and peace do not confirm anything. They are emotions. Emotions are a glorious gift of God to mankind, but they are not the "COMPASS" to depend on to determine Truth. Emotions enhance and magnify our passions and beliefs, but ultimately, belief goes beyond emotions.

Do you think those Christians that were in the colliseum about to be torn apart by animals or gladiators had warm fuzzies to help them stand strong? Sure they were strong, and it amazed the Romans who watched these people go to their terrible slow deaths, but their strength came from their faith that this immediate world and it's tribulations were but a temporary time in a future eternal life in Heaven. Thats the Holy Spirit at work in the believer. Faces with death, they approached bravely, knowing that God had a better place, and eternal future ahead for them. That's how the H.S. works. It gives counsel in the inner man, it encourages and assures the true Christian. It intercedes between the Christian and God when we are so distraught that we can't even pray. It knows the mind of God, because it is the Person of the Spirit of God working in perfect unison with Him.

The disciple Steven, even prayed for the men who were stoning him to death. So did Jesus.

There is no account of Joseph Smith Jr. going peacefully to his alleged martyrdom. He took out a gun and shot it out and was gunned down. Not what one would expect of a man of God who was at peace, and love with his enemies. There was no, "Father forgive them for they no not what they do." from the founder of your church.

Yes, he was a mere man, but he had not the qualities or life that one would know as a true prophet of God.

He was fascinated with treasure digging in New York along with his father. He scammed folks in New York, and ran up a nice little rap sheet there.

You don't want to believe this! You only want to believe what your church historians feed you! Your unwilling to step out and take a chance and challenge your churchs' doctrine against secular accounts.

Biblical Christians are challenged to challenge what is taught with our churches. This has been true all the way back to the early church of Acts. Even the famous Paul the Apostle was not trusted with his messages to the churches, as the followers of Christ, would diligently study scripture to make sure they weren't being misled.

Paul applauded them for this. What would J.S. jr. do if his followers challenged or questioned his teachings. We know......."Blood Attonement". Mormons who didn't fall into line were treated accordingly.

What of non-Mormons? Well the Mountain Meadows Massacre is all we have to refer to for that answer.

Who were the actual victims in the MMM? Hardly Mormons.
*********
You do not answer the questions.

God did not bless polygamy via Abraham, Solomon, David, etc... In every instance these men of God were transgressing God's monogamous command. In every instance, polygamy only brought strife, and sometimes bloodshed. Abraham going into his servant girl without waiting on God's promise for a child/Isaac was a direct violation. Solomon was given the greatest wisdom from God in the beginning, but he squandered away all that potential when he married again and again, and collected concubines from all over the known world. In Ecclesiates, Solomon is one broken man, who warns us to avoid the pull of the world, and the flesh and obey God. David commited murder to acquire another wife/Bathsheba, and in later years, the in-fighting between Davids offspring from his different wives nearly cost David his life.

So don't try to twist scripture into saying what you want it to say. Polygamy was never blessed by God. God allowed polygamy, but that's not "green lighting" it.

No, Mormons haven't suffered like true biblical Christians. They haven't been fed to lions, been rounded by Muslims outside of this continent, and summarily killed or held hostage.

Mormon persecution has happened due to Mormon's trying to push or take over communities in the 1800's that didn't want their doctrine forced upon them. People struck out against your early followers, as they saw them as a threat to their biblical beliefs. This is why biblical Christian America continued to give J.S. and is followers the bum rush out of town wherever they tried to encamp. They were not welcome. They attacked the foundations of biblical Christian belief that was the mainstay of this country.

 

[Truthspeaker]

You pooh pooh the absolute fact Christian faith is based on evidences that demand a verdict.

Wow! What a statement! So everything in the bible has scientific evidence to support it eh? I thought the Christian faith was based on believing that Christ is the savior even if you haven't seen miracles or hard indusputable facts. Where is the "evidence" that Christ resurrected? Eyewitnesses only.

Sure I love physical evidence as much as the next sign seeker. But I don't need archaeology(an ever changing institution) to tell me about Christs teachings(unchanging). Archaeology has no proof of Christ's resurrection but I still know it happened.

The richest thing I read from your monotonous and repetitive rant is that I haven't answered your questions! Rich as Bill Gates eating See's candies! Just what questions, pray tell, have I not answered?
in over 100 hundred pages of dialogue you haven't comprehended a single one of the myriad of answers I have printed for review to the world. I think you just read your own posts! Assuming I couldn't possibly answer your questions. Well since your so smart, why don't you answer me a few questions?
What church do you belong to specifically?
How old are you?
Are you married?
What state do you live in?
Do you have family from Missouri?
Did you graduate from college?
Oh and one last question: Can you please explain the mountainous evidence in support of the book of mormon in no short supply on the link below?(by the way, I have already done this before, but only you could make me repeat myself more than 10 times)
Book of Mormon Evidences - Are LDS Scriptures Supported by Science?

 

[Avatar4321]

What a surprise. jumping to yet another topic.

Do you think God answers prayers? Yes or no?

Are you honestly claiming the Bible is wrong when it states that the fruits of the Spirit are joy, love, peace etc and that the Spirit works on our feelings?

Are you still going to try to falsely claim that we are trusting feelings and not the Spirit.

So why do you seem to think God is going to lie or not answer honest prayers?

 

[Ceasaro]

Archaeology has no proof of Christ's resurrection but I still know it happened.
Ok, tell us how you know.

And dude, I went to your link and I have to say that the people who made that site are living in a state of suspended reality.

 

[Avatar4321]

Archaeology has no proof of Christ's resurrection but I still know it happened.
Ok, tell us how you know.

And dude, I went to your link and I have to say that the people who made that site are living in a state of suspended reality.

The Spirit told me. I dont know about him, but im sure the response is similiar.

If you want to learn the things of God, you have to ask God and listen to Him.

Problem is so few people exercise the faith necessary to get the answer even though everyone can. Those who might think for some reason they dont have. Take Eighters, for whatever reason he thinks that asking God for knowledge is wrong. Yet he professes to believe in the Bible which teaches us to ask and recieve, to seek and to find.

Yet somehow we are wrong to do just that?

I can promise you that God is there, and that He has the power to reveal Himself to us. I can also tell you that He is more than willing to do so, but He will do so on His conditions, not ours. And that condition is humility, faith, sincere desire to know and willingness to follow when we do.

Why are people so unwilling to experiment on the Word and find out for themselves?

 

[Ceasaro]

He's going to reveal himself on his conditions, and then we have to follow him? Didn't he make me? He forget to put something in? Why didn't he make me to follow him in the first place?
or are you just a natural born follower?

 

[Truthspeaker]

He's going to reveal himself on his conditions, and then we have to follow him? Didn't he make me? He forget to put something in? Why didn't he make me to follow him in the first place?
or are you just a natural born follower?

No one is born to follow him. that's one of the great secrets. This is an often random and dangerous environment we live in. An environment in which we make our OWN choices. God doesn't force his will on us because he loves us. He simply asks us to do our best with the knowledge we have. He invites us to to come to him and learn more of Him. Many people will be witheld from knowledge of Him but that's ok. We're all going to find out what's on the other side anyway. The point is to be a good person in your heart and actions. Jesus makes up the difference for ignorance.

 

[Shogun]

Hey dude.. congrats on making a pretty epic thread around here!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Hey dude.. congrats on making a pretty epic thread around here!

Mr. Missouri you have truly been appreciated. Thank you very much.