The U.S. Need Not be divided forever-The Case for Blood and Iron

[JGalt]

Are you a liar, or are you just stupid?

From 2008-2016, 2,499 U.S. soldiers were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq under President Obama.

2,500 Soldiers Have Died in Afghanistan and Iraq Under Obama

Note I said that my numbers were from 2012 until 2016 when they started pulling forces out. The numbers are true. So are your numbers. However, shouldn't we be comparing apples with apples - not only in time frames (four year blocks) but also what was happening on the ground? Anything else is just cheap political point scoring. If that's what you're after, have at it.

You didn't even mention Afghanistan.

Yeah, what are those numbers?

I already posted the total.

From 2008-2016, 2,499 U.S. soldiers were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq under President Obama.


—2,499 U.S. soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq so far under President Obama, according to the independent Iraq Coalition Casualty Count.

—Of those, 1,906 have been killed in and around Afghanistan, and 593 in Iraq.

—Under Obama, the United States has been at war for 2,687 days. That’s longer than under George W. Bush — or any other U.S. president, for that matter.

—Obama has conducted airstrikes on seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and Syria. (That’s three more countries than George W. Bush bombed.)

—U.S. combat forces are deployed on the ground in three countries: Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. That’s one more war than Obama inherited, and which his successor will likely have to contend with.

Obama Is Longest Wartime President In History

 

[Moonglow]

Seriously, can you name one thing in the whole world that the left and right agree on?

It's like the divide between righteousness and unrighteousness or between Jesus and Satan.

Satan has been working on getting the US to this point for a very long time.

Did you ever get his address so I could negotiate a contract?

He has yours. You will eventually realize you weren’t part of the negotiations but you will be all in for the disaster.

I already got a ticket for heaven, pre-paid it is..

There are some conditions.

Not with this one.

 

[ClaireH]

Wouldn't WHAT be worth it? What, precisely, are you suggesting? That we should go out and start a war with someone to distract ourselves from the deep, diametrically-opposed divisions in our country?

I understand your comment wasn't posted to me directly, but I'd like to respond. I'm not condoning war. Until mankind figures out that anything forced is temporary and wars don't resolve conflict, we're stuck here on a relatively low level of evolution.

This is the bigger picture: Constant party friction indicative of our current US situation, has been milked and watered for decades. During this continuous friction devolving into all kinds of murky waters, someone benefits, actually many "someones". This idea is nothing novel and has been discussed by many historians over decades about how this serves a purpose. You likely see where I'm going with this, but to be clear, without the friction (which won't go away, but my point is still valid here) those who benefit from constant one-upping and non-stop wagon circling would be forced to improve their game due to the attention alone.

Our government is truly a fine-tuned instrument, but needs adjustment when any of the three act above the law. The more we citizens learn the higher we'll hold accountable the powers that be: Executive, Legislative, Judicial Branches. The outcome could be a win for the country.

Sorry in advance for offering up a 2012 article, but it's the best one I could find (highlighting a lack of recent focus) about the 3 separate branches of government and proper way of functioning.

From the article: "The idea that the very laws that the government is charged with enforcing could restrain the government itself is uniquely Western and was accepted with near unanimity at the time of the creation of the American Republic."

All Three Branches of Government Are Acting Above the Law

What do we do about it?

reason.com

As you see, I'm not condoning war when I support a more united country.

 

[bodecea]

Isn't that what one of the things this President has accomplished? Not to mention peace in the ME, energy independence, the strongest military in the world, no more American soldiers dying, and the destruction of ISIS and al Qaeda?

No, no, no, no, no and no.....he is responsible for very little or none of it.
Peace in the ME? With UAE??? Are you serious.

ISIS and al Qaeda were well on their way to being dismantled before he came along. Well under way.
Strongest military in the world? Interesting point. However, has there been a time since WWII when the US hasn't been the strongest military in the world under any president? Christ, you have so many nukes you don't even need a regular military. Just threaten to unlock the codes and that tends to shut the like of N Korea up pretty quickly.

Dunno about energy independence.

From 2012 to 2016, 34 US service men and women died in Iraq (not sure of the cause)
From 2017-2020, 59 US service men and women died in Iraq (not sure of the cause)

Iraq war - American soldiers killed in Iraq 2020 | Statista

As of March 2021, 11 U.S.

www.statista.com

you have so many nukes you don't even need a regular military. Just threaten to unlock the codes and that tends to shut the like of N Korea up pretty quickly.
Which is exactly what Trump did.
But since Trump did it, it's not good.
If a D does it, it will be good..

 

[Dr Grump]

I already posted the total.

From 2008-2016, 2,499 U.S. soldiers were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq under President Obama.


—2,499 U.S. soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq so far under President Obama, according to the independent Iraq Coalition Casualty Count.

—Of those, 1,906 have been killed in and around Afghanistan, and 593 in Iraq.

—Under Obama, the United States has been at war for 2,687 days. That’s longer than under George W. Bush — or any other U.S. president, for that matter.

—Obama has conducted airstrikes on seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and Syria. (That’s three more countries than George W. Bush bombed.)

—U.S. combat forces are deployed on the ground in three countries: Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. That’s one more war than Obama inherited, and which his successor will likely have to contend with.

Obama Is Longest Wartime President In History

Meh. That's just politics. Without George Bush there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq. Wanna put up Bush's numbers in terms of deaths?
And for the past four years of Obama's presidency, he seriously downgraded the number of troops in both countries, thus the massive decline in deaths in those four years.

You see, this is why political discourse is so sour in the US. Total dishonesty - and yes, both parties do it. The link from your piece is from a self-affirming conservative site. They are more interested in the win (HEY! OBAMA HAS BEEN IN IRAQ LONGER THAN BUSH!!!). To which I say "So the fuck what? Give us the minutiae. Give use the bigger picture., not just a sound bite."

I equate it to something like this:
What I said: George Washington wanted to make sure all little boys and girls got a good education
How the right wing media would report it: George Washington is a pedo...

 

[JGalt]

I already posted the total.

From 2008-2016, 2,499 U.S. soldiers were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq under President Obama.


—2,499 U.S. soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq so far under President Obama, according to the independent Iraq Coalition Casualty Count.

—Of those, 1,906 have been killed in and around Afghanistan, and 593 in Iraq.

—Under Obama, the United States has been at war for 2,687 days. That’s longer than under George W. Bush — or any other U.S. president, for that matter.

—Obama has conducted airstrikes on seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and Syria. (That’s three more countries than George W. Bush bombed.)

—U.S. combat forces are deployed on the ground in three countries: Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. That’s one more war than Obama inherited, and which his successor will likely have to contend with.

Obama Is Longest Wartime President In History

Meh. That's just politics. Without George Bush there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq. Wanna put up Bush's numbers in terms of deaths?
And for the past four years of Obama's presidency, he seriously downgraded the number of troops in both countries, thus the massive decline in deaths in those four years.

You see, this is why political discourse is so sour in the US. Total dishonesty - and yes, both parties do it. The link from your piece is from a self-affirming conservative site. They are more interested in the win (HEY! OBAMA HAS BEEN IN IRAQ LONGER THAN BUSH!!!). To which I say "So the fuck what? Give us the minutiae. Give use the bigger picture., not just a sound bite."

I equate it to something like this:
What I said: George Washington wanted to make sure all little boys and girls got a good education
How the right wing media would report it: George Washington is a pedo...

That's where we differ: You say "Without George Bush there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq" and I say "Without al Qaeda, the Taliban, and radical Islam there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq."

You say "Without Donald Trump there would be no coronavirus" and I say "Without China there would be no cvoronavirus."

See the difference? I'm glad we had this little discussion. It's always a good thing to set you youngsters straight about how things work in this world.

 

[bottlecap]

The Afghanistan War made sense in the beginning. Our nation was attacked by religious freaks and their training base was in Afghanistan.

But, the mission turned south when the goal switched from getting Osama to turning Afghanistan into a democratic society. We should have pulled out long ago.

 

[Billiejeens]

Blood and Iron (speech) - Wikipedia

The term coined by Bismarck often used to refer to the militarism and nationalism that helped create modern Germany. There are few things better to unite a people and a nation than a (perceived) external threat or a crusade to eliminate that threat and consolidate the power of a nation.

Personally, I've very tired of hearing about how divided the United States is and some repeatedly suggesting the U.S. needs to break up.

Wouldn't it be worth it to unite our country and give us renewed national purpose for at least a couple of decades or more?
Wouldn't it be worth it to save our nation?

What do you suggest that purpose be?

 

[Dr Grump]

That's where we differ: You say "Without George Bush there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq" and I say "Without al Qaeda, the Taliban, and radical Islam there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq."

You say "Without Donald Trump there would be no coronavirus" and I say "Without China there would be no cvoronavirus."

See the difference? I'm glad we had this little discussion. It's always a good thing to set you youngsters straight about how things work in this world.

And Iraq had 'what?' to do with the Taliban and al Qaeda again?
Without the US propping up dictatorships like SA there might not be any al Qaeda

 

[LordBrownTrout]

Sink the bismarck. Johnny Horton

 

[Dayton3]

Sink the bismarck. Johnny Horton

Great song by the way.

 

[Pappadave1]

I already posted the total.

From 2008-2016, 2,499 U.S. soldiers were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq under President Obama.


—2,499 U.S. soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq so far under President Obama, according to the independent Iraq Coalition Casualty Count.

—Of those, 1,906 have been killed in and around Afghanistan, and 593 in Iraq.

—Under Obama, the United States has been at war for 2,687 days. That’s longer than under George W. Bush — or any other U.S. president, for that matter.

—Obama has conducted airstrikes on seven countries: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and Syria. (That’s three more countries than George W. Bush bombed.)

—U.S. combat forces are deployed on the ground in three countries: Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. That’s one more war than Obama inherited, and which his successor will likely have to contend with.

Obama Is Longest Wartime President In History

Meh. That's just politics. Without George Bush there would be no Afghanistan and Iraq. Wanna put up Bush's numbers in terms of deaths?
And for the past four years of Obama's presidency, he seriously downgraded the number of troops in both countries, thus the massive decline in deaths in those four years.

You see, this is why political discourse is so sour in the US. Total dishonesty - and yes, both parties do it. The link from your piece is from a self-affirming conservative site. They are more interested in the win (HEY! OBAMA HAS BEEN IN IRAQ LONGER THAN BUSH!!!). To which I say "So the fuck what? Give us the minutiae. Give use the bigger picture., not just a sound bite."

I equate it to something like this:
What I said: George Washington wanted to make sure all little boys and girls got a good education
How the right wing media would report it: George Washington is a pedo...

Actually untrue. George Washington is lauded by the "right wing" of American politics. He USED to be so by Democrats, too, but they've been taken over by their FAR LEFT to where Washington is despised for being a slave-owner (forgetting that he freed ALL of his slaves in his will, and likely single-handedly kept us from becoming just another tyrannical monarchy.).

 

[9thIDdoc]

Blood and Iron (speech) - Wikipedia

The term coined by Bismarck often used to refer to the militarism and nationalism that helped create modern Germany. There are few things better to unite a people and a nation than a (perceived) external threat or a crusade to eliminate that threat and consolidate the power of a nation.

Personally, I've very tired of hearing about how divided the United States is and some repeatedly suggesting the U.S. needs to break up.

Wouldn't it be worth it to unite our country and give us renewed national purpose for at least a couple of decades or more?
Wouldn't it be worth it to save our nation?

You mean a threat like the China Flu?

 

[Juicin]

Blood and Iron (speech) - Wikipedia

The term coined by Bismarck often used to refer to the militarism and nationalism that helped create modern Germany. There are few things better to unite a people and a nation than a (perceived) external threat or a crusade to eliminate that threat and consolidate the power of a nation.

Personally, I've very tired of hearing about how divided the United States is and some repeatedly suggesting the U.S. needs to break up.

Wouldn't it be worth it to unite our country and give us renewed national purpose for at least a couple of decades or more?
Wouldn't it be worth it to save our nation?

luckily we have a giant chinese empire on the rise to cause exactly that....

 

[Mac1958]

Where is America off track?
The last I looked, my region is doing rather well.

holy crap

 

[Cecilie1200]

Blood and Iron (speech) - Wikipedia

The term coined by Bismarck often used to refer to the militarism and nationalism that helped create modern Germany. There are few things better to unite a people and a nation than a (perceived) external threat or a crusade to eliminate that threat and consolidate the power of a nation.

Personally, I've very tired of hearing about how divided the United States is and some repeatedly suggesting the U.S. needs to break up.

Wouldn't it be worth it to unite our country and give us renewed national purpose for at least a couple of decades or more?
Wouldn't it be worth it to save our nation?

Wouldn't WHAT be worth it? What, precisely, are you suggesting? That we should go out and start a war with someone to distract ourselves from the deep, diametrically-opposed divisions in our country?

Most wars are started by nations due to their internal political situations.

Which in no way makes it a good idea.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Seriously, can you name one thing in the whole world that the left and right agree on?

It's like the divide between righteousness and unrighteousness or between Jesus and Satan.

Certainly both sides see it in exactly those terms. Which, to my mind, precludes any sort of compromise and unity.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wouldn't WHAT be worth it? What, precisely, are you suggesting? That we should go out and start a war with someone to distract ourselves from the deep, diametrically-opposed divisions in our country?

I understand your comment wasn't posted to me directly, but I'd like to respond. I'm not condoning war. Until mankind figures out that anything forced is temporary and wars don't resolve conflict, we're stuck here on a relatively low level of evolution.

This is the bigger picture: Constant party friction indicative of our current US situation, has been milked and watered for decades. During this continuous friction devolving into all kinds of murky waters, someone benefits, actually many "someones". This idea is nothing novel and has been discussed by many historians over decades about how this serves a purpose. You likely see where I'm going with this, but to be clear, without the friction (which won't go away, but my point is still valid here) those who benefit from constant one-upping and non-stop wagon circling would be forced to improve their game due to the attention alone.

Our government is truly a fine-tuned instrument, but needs adjustment when any of the three act above the law. The more we citizens learn the higher we'll hold accountable the powers that be: Executive, Legislative, Judicial Branches. The outcome could be a win for the country.

Sorry in advance for offering up a 2012 article, but it's the best one I could find (highlighting a lack of recent focus) about the 3 separate branches of government and proper way of functioning.

From the article: "The idea that the very laws that the government is charged with enforcing could restrain the government itself is uniquely Western and was accepted with near unanimity at the time of the creation of the American Republic."

All Three Branches of Government Are Acting Above the Law

What do we do about it?

reason.com

As you see, I'm not condoning war when I support a more united country.

It sounds really nice to talk vaguely about unity, but you're going to need to give me specifics on any issue on which the left and right have any common ground, or even potential common ground.

 

[Correll]

Some have the capacity to communicate, collaborate, innovate and get America back on track.

Those who lack that capacity are best left out of the conversation. They are the problem.

That's exactly what Trump did: Communicate, innovate, and got America back on track again.

Unfortunately, your side refused to participate in it.

holy shit

Yeah, that non-stop shit storm of name-calling, personal insults, comical hyperbole and transparent lies really should have been appreciated more.

You started it. He is our answer to you. And the next answer will be worse.

 

[Correll]

Some have the capacity to communicate, collaborate, innovate and get America back on track.

Those who lack that capacity are best left out of the conversation. They are the problem.

That's exactly what Trump did: Communicate, innovate, and got America back on track again.

Unfortunately, your side refused to participate in it.

holy shit

Yeah, that non-stop shit storm of name-calling, personal insults, comical hyperbole and transparent lies really should have been appreciated more.

So you go from what you thought was "bad", to something worse?

I see. Please feel free to explain to me how a Biden/Harris presidency is going to make your country any better, and any safer from existential threats.

Simply taking two steps back into an imaginary copy of the Obama administration is going to make your life better? If you remember, things weren't really all that peachy from 2008-2016. There were still protests and riots, there were almost daily beheadings on the media from radical Islamic factions, American soldiers were being killed every day in the ME, higher gasoline and energy prices, school shootings....I could go on.

They're not going to make the country better from the perspective of you obedient Trumpsters.

Tough shit.

We count too. YOur attempt to marginalize and oppress us will be resisted, forever.