The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[JBeukema]

there are plenty of Jewish scholars who would scoff at your contention that divine multiplicity, whatever it is you mean by that, goes back to Genesis.

Let us make man in our image...


lest he become like us, knowing good and evil...


See also 'The angel of the Lord' (as opposed to 'an angel...', which can be any of god's messenger's)


I've explained this all before. The immaculate birth was needed because if he was born of a man he'd have inherited the stain of sin and Man's fallen state, being imperfect and incapable of living a sinless life and paying the price he would come to pay upon the cross.


Simple stuff, man.

-The Reverend James Teunis Beukema

 

[Quantum Windbag]

NOT TRUE. there are several religions that claim to be Christian that do not view Christ as God, they view him as the Son of God, or as the messiah, but not God himself.....Unitarians, Mormons as 2 examples...

All cults and spinoffs.


And the bible warns of us false prophets and churches- Lucifer's deceptions. The broad and winding road to damnation.[/quote]

Yet the concept that Jesus is God was roundly denounced by the early church fathers. I would say that that indicates that the belief that Jesus is God the Father is the a cult spinoff of the early church that too over Christendom, just like Jefferson said it did.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Despoiling Of America

 

[Christopher]

Right, so rather than address the fact that they had slaves and the fact that the bible condones slavery and the fact that his nation was founded as a secular nation, you want to talk about how Obama can't pass legislation without congress

Now you are deflecting. I used Obama as an example. He knows he cannot implement a universal health care system because it takes time. He is smart. So were the founders.

Show me exactly where the Bible condones slavery. Chapter and verse, describe the context first.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

The New Language Translation is not the best. I prefer the King James Translation as it tends to stick closer to the actual meaning.

Now, can you explain the context of what a slave was back then? It was quite different than how we view it today.

Also, like I said I am skeptical of some of these things in the Bible, since I know man has changed some of it. If Christianity really teaches that slaves as we define them were OK, then the "do unto others" principle is not true. I don't believe that and I question anything that goes against what Christ taught.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Now you are deflecting. I used Obama as an example. He knows he cannot implement a universal health care system because it takes time. He is smart. So were the founders.

Show me exactly where the Bible condones slavery. Chapter and verse, describe the context first.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

The New Language Translation is not the best. I prefer the King James Translation as it tends to stick closer to the actual meaning.

Now, can you explain the context of what a slave was back then? It was quite different than how we view it today.

Also, like I said I am skeptical of some of these things in the Bible, since I know man has changed some of it. If Christianity really teaches that slaves as we define them were OK, then the "do unto others" principle is not true. I don't believe that and I question anything that goes against what Christ taught.

A slave is a slave. Either you buy the Bible scripture or you don't. Luckily, it's not my book. I don't blame you. I'd claim it was a poor translation too. Not fun to have to justify these passages.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Constitution is a godless document. Jesus, the Bible and God are absent in it. The Constitution is the document on which our country is founded.

If that were true we would celebrate 17 Sep 1787 as the birth of our nation, not 4 Jul 1776. That Articles of Confederation clearly called the new nation the United States of America, all the Constitution is is a redrafting of those articles to clear up problems that occurred as a result of them.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Constitution is a godless document. Jesus, the Bible and God are absent in it. The Constitution is the document on which our country is founded.

If that were true we would celebrate 17 Sep 1787 as the birth of our nation, not 4 Jul 1776. That Articles of Confederation clearly called the new nation the United States of America, all the Constitution is is a redrafting of those articles to clear up problems that occurred as a result of them.

We weren't a country until we passed law the law of the land. That began with the Constitution.

 

[Christopher]

Right, so rather than address the fact that they had slaves and the fact that the bible condones slavery and the fact that his nation was founded as a secular nation, you want to talk about how Obama can't pass legislation without congress

Now you are deflecting. I used Obama as an example. He knows he cannot implement a universal health care system because it takes time. He is smart. So were the founders.

Show me exactly where the Bible condones slavery. Chapter and verse, describe the context first.

Obama has to work within the confines of the law (you know Congress passing new laws and such).

The FF wrote the law.

Sorry, my littler slavery apologist, but you fail again.

And if you want to pretend the bible doesn't permit slavery, then nobdy's going to take you seriously. That's been discovered time and again.

here

I am not trying to apologize for slavery. What I am trying to do is understand those who knew that it should be abolished, their time, the circumstances, and the reasons they had for their actions. Everything in context. Wouldn't you agree that would be important?

I would prefer Washington had freed his slaves right away. Unlike you, I do not judge him/them as harshly until I have tried to walk in their shoes.

Anything that teaches against what Christ taught is not what I believe. If some use or did use the Bible to promote slavery I say that obviously goes against what Christ taught. Still there is no passage where the Bible openly condones the practice of slavery as we define it today.

 

[AllieBaba]

The Constitution is a godless document. Jesus, the Bible and God are absent in it. The Constitution is the document on which our country is founded.

If that were true we would celebrate 17 Sep 1787 as the birth of our nation, not 4 Jul 1776. That Articles of Confederation clearly called the new nation the United States of America, all the Constitution is is a redrafting of those articles to clear up problems that occurred as a result of them.

We weren't a country until we passed law the law of the land. That began with the Constitution.

However, we set forth our intentions in the DECLARATION.

We can do this all year, Sky. You're wrong.

 

[Sky Dancer]

If that were true we would celebrate 17 Sep 1787 as the birth of our nation, not 4 Jul 1776. That Articles of Confederation clearly called the new nation the United States of America, all the Constitution is is a redrafting of those articles to clear up problems that occurred as a result of them.

We weren't a country until we passed law the law of the land. That began with the Constitution.

However, we set forth our intentions in the DECLARATION.

We can do this all year, Sky. You're wrong.

We can debate. That's what we do here. We weren't technically a republic until we passed the Constitution. You can say it's the Declaration of Independence but that just declared war.

In 1783 with the signing of the Treaty of Paris which officially ended the American Revolution and Great Britain recognized the United States' independence.

The ratification of the Constitution was complete on March 4, 1789, when New Hampshire adopted it, officially the United States didn't become "united" until all states accepted the Constitution.

 

[Christopher]

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

The New Language Translation is not the best. I prefer the King James Translation as it tends to stick closer to the actual meaning.

Now, can you explain the context of what a slave was back then? It was quite different than how we view it today.

Also, like I said I am skeptical of some of these things in the Bible, since I know man has changed some of it. If Christianity really teaches that slaves as we define them were OK, then the "do unto others" principle is not true. I don't believe that and I question anything that goes against what Christ taught.

A slave is a slave. Either you buy the Bible scripture or you don't. Luckily, it's not my book. I don't blame you. I'd claim it was a poor translation too. Not fun to have to justify these passages.

Definitions do change over time and the Old Testament was a long time ago. For instance, the word awful used to mean "deserving of awe". Quite different.
Here:Etymology- How Words Change Over Time

It is obviously a poor translation. Also, like I said I question anything in the Bible that would contradict at least the basic teachings of Christ. Some things were added/changed by man.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The New Language Translation is not the best. I prefer the King James Translation as it tends to stick closer to the actual meaning.

Now, can you explain the context of what a slave was back then? It was quite different than how we view it today.

Also, like I said I am skeptical of some of these things in the Bible, since I know man has changed some of it. If Christianity really teaches that slaves as we define them were OK, then the "do unto others" principle is not true. I don't believe that and I question anything that goes against what Christ taught.

A slave is a slave. Either you buy the Bible scripture or you don't. Luckily, it's not my book. I don't blame you. I'd claim it was a poor translation too. Not fun to have to justify these passages.

Definitions do change over time and the Old Testament was a long time ago. For instance, the word awful used to mean "deserving of awe". Quite different.
Here:Etymology- How Words Change Over Time

It is obviously a poor translation. Also, like I said I question anything in the Bible that would contradict at least the basic teachings of Christ. Some things were added/changed by man.

Hey. It doesn't bother me. You asked for some bible passages that related to slavery and I researched them.

You don't have to own the whole bible. Just admit the Bible is written by men. Otherwise one has to conclude that God condoned slavery.

 

[AllieBaba]

We weren't a country until we passed law the law of the land. That began with the Constitution.

However, we set forth our intentions in the DECLARATION.

We can do this all year, Sky. You're wrong.

We can debate. That's what we do here. We weren't technically a republic until we passed the Constitution. You can say it's the Declaration of Independence but that just declared war.

In 1783 with the signing of the Treaty of Paris which officially ended the American Revolution and Great Britain recognized the United States' independence.

The ratification of the Constitution was complete on March 4, 1789, when New Hampshire adopted it, officially the United States didn't become "united" until all states accepted the Constitution.

We aren't talking about when they were "united". We're talking about the foundations upon which the country was built.

It was a Christian foundation. Based on Christian principles. The founders SAID IT WAS. You look like an idiot flying in the face of that. Your "opinion" means less than nothing here, because your opinion does not determine the fact of the matter.

And the fact of the matter is that the country was founded on Christian principles, per the founding fathers and our foundation document, the Declaration of Independence, which set out the principles by which we intended to build a country upon.

You're wrong. This isn't debate, you can't debate a fact. It's like saying "I think it's black" means that a white sheet MIGHT be black, just because you're blind.

 

[frazzledgear]

The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity
Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. ...
The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity - Cached - Similar

Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. .... Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural .... He led the men who turned America from an English colony into a self-governing nation. ...
Thomas Jefferson - John Adams - Benjamin Franklin - Thomas Painefreethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html - Cached - Similar

I really get tired of the constant attempt to re-write our history. Pretending our founders were men of "enlightment" whatever the hell you think that is supposed to mean and not men of religious faith is just one more pathetic attempt by the left to insist religion and religious faith played no real role in our founding. WRONG BUBBA There were more than 200 founders and there is a reason the left wants to pretend our nation was founded by just these two people and we can all ignore the other 198+, right?

Our government is a secular one and you atheists seem to think that is synonymous with "atheist" where the religious beliefs of the founders were totally irrelevant -which is bullshit. "Secular" ONLY means "not ruling in accordance with ecclesiastic law (church law)" -where violating church law was punished by the state. In other words "secular" only means "not a theocracy" -and it NEVER means "atheist that rejects the very existence of God" or a system that must pretend atheism is just as valuable to society as religious belief as the left insists we all pretend. The founders rejected YOUR phony definition of secular right off the bat and fully intended to create a secular government that did not govern in accordance with ecclesiastic law but was founded on Christian principles. A system that respected the religious beliefs of its citizens, would encourage its citizens to have religious beliefs -but without choosing a religion for them -as the best possible way to protect religion from the abuse and power of government.

And THIS is where you leftwing atheist nutjobs got it all wrong. Because YOU think religion is the evil thing here, you want to pretend our founders shared your opinions on that -which is a provably false assumption. Our founders believed it was government that was the potential danger and evil thing and sought to limit ITS power, including any ability for government to take over and control religions and then use the religious beliefs of people to expand government's power and control over the people. They hadn't been fighting against religion in the Revolutionary War. The founders were NOT atheists, and they were nearly uniformly DEVOUT CHRISTIANS of one denomination or another.

The founders initially wanted to write into the Constitution that this nation existed for the benefit of Christians and Christianity and they initially sought ways to avoid extending the same religious protections in the Constitution to any non-Christian religion.

The founders were OPEN about their intent to create a system of government that was BASED on Christian principles -but did not govern in accordance with ecclesiastical law because that would mean elevating one denomination over all the others because the ecclesiastic law differed from one denomination to the other. So the founders rejected governance in accordance with any ecclesiastical law because they understood we couldn't have freedom of religion if people were governed by the church laws of one particular religion over all others.

Our nation was founded on Christian PRINCIPLES -but if you haven't a clue what those are in the first place, that makes it a lot easier to try and deceive yourself that it wasn't. But among those principles, but not limited to just these - are the very basic Christian beliefs that rejects the notion man is nothing but a mere animal with no higher meaning to his existence than that, rejects the notion that man is the highest source of authority, the belief that God Himself is the source of our rights which means no man has the right to take those away and the utter rejection of forced conversion. The founders wanted a system of government that held such principles at the fore -and believed they created just that. BASED on Christian principles. Not atheist ones, not Muslim ones, not Buddhist ones, not Wiccan ones.

The problem for YOU and other leftist history revisionists is the FACT the founders left an immense wealth of their writings to explain exactly what they were thinking, why they chose the exact wording they did and what they drew upon for inspiration to create the system they did. So the notion that YOUR uninformed opinion somehow carries greater weight than the body of their work they left for future generations that explains exactly what they were thinking at the time - is truly laughable.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

Benjamin Franklin proposed that the federal seal for the United States be that of Moses raising his hand and parting the Red Sea.

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” Benjamin Franklin, Constitutional Convention of 1787 Do I need to explain what Sacred Writings Ben meant? So I guess he really was enlightened but probably not the way you wanted to pretend.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.” Thomas Jefferson

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?.." Thomas Jefferson, taken from his writings and these words, his own, have been engraved on the wall of his tomb.

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” James Madison, 1778

James Madison is the man who came up with the idea of dividing our government into three branches and at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 where his model ended up being adopted, Madison explained his source of inspiration for it: Isaiah 33:22 “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us.”

"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

"Christianity is part of the common law" James Wilson, co-signer of the Constitution and Supreme Court Justice appointed by Washington

"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" John Adams and John Hancock, April 18, 1775

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776

There are thousands and thousands of quotes from the words and writings of the founders about what role they believed Christianity had in our founding - but I think you get the idea.

 

[AllieBaba]

I would like Sky to tell us exactly what she thinks the founding fathers meant when they said they were building a country upon Christian principles.

Because obviously she thinks they were lying when they said that, and meant something completely different.

 

[AllieBaba]

And further, if the majority of our citizenry is Christian, how do we describe our citizenry? As non-Christian?

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If the Constitution is so secular....why don't the secular progressives teach it in the public schools...?
If they can teach homosexuality to 1st graders they should be able to teach them about the Constitution too...

Our country was extremely Christian in the beginning and pretty much so until the last 50 years or so...prayers were said in school along with the Pledge of Allegience....the 10 Commandments were hung on walls......people even brought their Bibles to school to actually read and study....and religion also flourished in the public square without any problem....and our country perked along just fine for years and years.....in the old days Americans were so damn religious old rikules would shit in his pants....

So what happened?

Libruls moved further left and their secular progressive ideas started to push out religion claiming that we are a "secular" nation...totally disregarding the intent of our founders which was to limit the federal govt to secular matters, not limit the people....calling it "godless" they used the Constitution against us by twisting the law bit by bit to expunge every religious expression in the schools and the public square....totally ignoring the fact that the Constitution actually says we have the right to free religious expression...they've caused our schools and the public square to become exclusive instead of inclusive...they have totally marginalized religion...they are anti-God and are rabid anti-Christian haters...even those Deist founding fathers would turn in their graves...

Secularism is as much a belief system or "religion" as is Christianity.....and these anti-Christian, anti-American Secularists are attempting to create their own form of "theocracy" in America by bastardizing our Constitution...

 

[Christopher]

A slave is a slave. Either you buy the Bible scripture or you don't. Luckily, it's not my book. I don't blame you. I'd claim it was a poor translation too. Not fun to have to justify these passages.

Definitions do change over time and the Old Testament was a long time ago. For instance, the word awful used to mean "deserving of awe". Quite different.
Here:Etymology- How Words Change Over Time

It is obviously a poor translation. Also, like I said I question anything in the Bible that would contradict at least the basic teachings of Christ. Some things were added/changed by man.

Hey. It doesn't bother me. You asked for some bible passages that related to slavery and I researched them.

You don't have to own the whole bible. Just admit the Bible is written by men. Otherwise one has to conclude that God condoned slavery.

Yes, thank you and I've seen the passages before.

I guess I would like for people to understand first of all that slavery in the OT is not the same as we define today. Anytime you read the word "slave" in the Bible there is a certain perception that I believe can be incorrect.

Second, I can think of only tow reasons for the inclusion of reference to slaves in the OT you gave:

1. The references were added by man.
2. Although God did not approve of slavery, He allowed them to practice it in the way they did for their day in the hopes that they would one day change their ways. I do believe God is constantly trying to shape us into a better people. For instance, when Christ came and fulfilled the law of Moses, he established a higher law and did away with things such as an "eye for an eye".

 

[ScreamingEagle]

I'm really sick and tired of Lefties today attacking Christians about slavery and women's rights (their two claims to fame)....it is so hypocritical...

If they were truly concerned about those two topics they would criticize the Democratic Party instead.....and certainly voice their criticism of various Islamic practices today...

 

[AllieBaba]

They support them.
As they supported slavery.

That's why they accuse us of it.