The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[bodecea]

Not scrolling through 54 pages.

The Founders based our government on Rome, the Roman Empire, the Roman Republic.

Instead of a Caesar we have a President, we have a Senate -- albeit a bicameral one and we have the people, we have breads and circuses to keep us entertained

Not Catholicism, not the Church -- Rome. Don't forget it

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."
— Frank Zappa

Partially.
However, the founding fathers also recognized that Rome's demise came about at the same time they started persecuting Christians.

So while they considered Roman political structure, they still maintained that liberty comes from God, and freedom of religion and freedom of speech in all things are God-given rights, and the federal government exists ONLY TO PROTECT THOSE RIGHTS.

Where did you learn your history? Seriously. Rome did not fall until it was a Christian empire and had been one for a while...476 is when Rome fell...Christians defeated by pagan Teutonic tribes.

BTW, the Rome that our Founders admired and emulated was the Roman Republic....that fell before Jesus was even born.

 

[bodecea]

No, I have a pretty good grasp of history.

Which you obviously don't. I wouldn't make fun of it, if I were you. It makes you appear pretty ridiculous.

Show me the history book that talks about the founders drafting the Constitution because the Roman's persecuted the Christians. LOL

Hahahaha

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, it's not really a hair trigger. But I get highly antsy when people start claiming that the US is a secular nation, and Christian verbage has no place in public or in our politics. I suspect the motives of anyone who will lie about the principles upon which our country is founded, because I KNOW that the reason they lie about them is because they want to remove those freedoms. By claiming they never existed, or were never SUPPOSED to exist, and furthermore, are the root of myriad and elusive "problems". That is the way freedom of religion AND freedom of speech is shut down.

Read your history.

"No, it's not really a hair trigger."

seems like it is
you are ALWAYS very angry

you yell
and swear
and insult people
and i've been told you smell funny....


"But I get highly antsy when people start claiming that the US is a secular nation,"

it IS a secular nation

everyone has a right to worship ANY religion or NO religion
christians have no special rights in America
our laws are based onlogic and reaosn (mostly) but NOT on christian beliefs


" and Christian verbage has no place in public or in our politics."

for the most part, it doesn't.

of course
you have the right to TRY and impose your religious lunacies
unconstitutional as those may be
but you do not have the right to IMPOSE your religious beliefs
or litigate them

thanks to the secular constitution


" I suspect the motives of anyone who will lie about the principles upon which our country is founded, because I KNOW that the reason they lie about them is because they want to remove those freedoms."

you're just a paranoid lunatic

nobody is trying to remove your religious freedoms

we just want you to keep them to yourself


" By claiming they never existed, or were never SUPPOSED to exist,"

they never existed
they were NEVER suppose to exist

and you can NOT make them exist

no matter how much you lie about it


" and furthermore, are the root of myriad and elusive "problems"."

some christian beliefs WERE the root of problems;

slavery
discrimination against blacks
denying women equal rights

all problems

all stemming from christian beliefs



" That is the way freedom of religion AND freedom of speech is shut down."

you will always have your freedom of religion and your freedom to say the most insane things!

I promise I will NEVER vote for any law that would EVER deny anyone their religious freedom.

I SWEAR to that.

I would NEVER vote for any politician that ever suggested anything like that

I SWEAR to that.

I don't believe in god or religion but I would defend the freedom of ANYONE to believe in ANY religion


I have no doubt you woud NOT DO THE SAME.

YOU would deny religious freedom and freedom of speech LONG before I ever would

in fact
the more you keep saying "America IS A CHRISTIAN NATION"

the more convinced I am that you would MAKE THAT A LAW.

And make another law denying all NON-christian religions the right to practice in America

That's because you're a fascist. You want to squelch the rights of others based upon what they might do in the future, based on your own skewed view.

I'm not interested in making anything regarding religion a law.

But I will fight to preserve the right to practice it publicly and without fear of oppression or restraint.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, I have a pretty good grasp of history.

Which you obviously don't. I wouldn't make fun of it, if I were you. It makes you appear pretty ridiculous.

Show me the history book that talks about the founders drafting the Constitution because the Roman's persecuted the Christians. LOL

Hahahaha

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

Well now it's painfully obvious that none of you have read anything written by the founding fathers.

Who criticized Rome, btw.

 

[pinqy]

Show me the history book that talks about the founders drafting the Constitution because the Roman's persecuted the Christians. LOL

Hahahaha

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

Well now it's painfully obvious that none of you have read anything written by the founding fathers.

Who criticized Rome, btw.

And Rome was CHRISTIAN for the time period they criticized.

 

[bodecea]

Show me the history book that talks about the founders drafting the Constitution because the Roman's persecuted the Christians. LOL

Hahahaha

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

Well now it's painfully obvious that none of you have read anything written by the founding fathers.

Who criticized Rome, btw.

Yeh, that's why they modeled ourselves after the Roman Republic...because they didn't like the Romans.

And I've read quite a bit by the Founding Fathers. You aren't even in the same zip code.

 

[bodecea]

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

Well now it's painfully obvious that none of you have read anything written by the founding fathers.

Who criticized Rome, btw.

And Rome was CHRISTIAN for the time period they criticized.

Yep...that was the later Empire. And lets not get into the Byzantine Empire (Christian) which was one of the most corrupt, decadent civilizations in recorded history.

 

[rikules]

Show me the history book that talks about the founders drafting the Constitution because the Roman's persecuted the Christians. LOL

Hahahaha

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

Well now it's painfully obvious that none of you have read anything written by the founding fathers.

Who criticized Rome, btw.

the main question in this thread is

"was America founded on christianity"

NOT "what were our founding fathers personal religious beliefs"

consequently
going by OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS

and not biographies, autobiographies and musings

we can conclude that they intended for America to have a FREEDOM of RELIGION
that transcended mere christianity...


it is obvious that America was founded on a LOT of things...

one of which was christianity


but it was also founded on NON-christian thoughts and ideas

jefferson
or washington
or madison
may have been "christians"
but they, too, read books
non-christian books....
books that helped them to become the freedom loving men that they were...

these men
our founding fathers
founded our nation PARTLY on christianity
and partly on the musings of the greeks, the french, and other philosophers who were NOT just regurgitating christianity...



you try to use the writings of SOME of our founding fathers to prove what you want to believe
what you DEMAND EVERYONE accept

you keep trying to FORCE PEOPLE to agree with you!

to the extent that you insult them and denigrate them (like an uncivilized lout) if they don't agree with you


but in doing so you purposely choose to ignore much of what our founding fathers wrote, said and believed, apparently because these do NOT further your agenda


besides saying; "I am a christian" I guarantee that in those books you claim to read you will find these same men asserting that their beliefs have been affected by writers and thinkers and philosophers who were NOT christians

yet
you choose to ignore all of that


to say that "America was ONLY founded on christianity"
or "MOSTLY founded on christianity"

is like saying "tom brady won the super bowl with out any help from anyone else"


you give FAR TOO MUCH credit to christianity and far too little to locke

 

[AllieBaba]

Why on earth wouldn't you go by the statements the founding fathers themselves provide?

Oh, because that's the only way you can make your weird revisionist history work. You have to eliminate the bulk of the evidence.

But there's still the Declaration. Which states what the United States is and will be, and what it will represent.

 

[AllieBaba]

Oh, wait..you guys are throwing that out too, claiming it's not REALLY a foundation document.

Crazy.

 

[AllieBaba]

The History Place - World War II in Europe Timeline: May 10, 1933 - Nazis Burn Books in Germany

Get rid of those pesky docs!

 

[AllieBaba]

"Along these lines, Yale political scientist, Juan Linz and others have noted that secularization had created a void which could be filled by a total ideology, making totalitarianism possible[33][34], and Roger Griffin has characterized fascism as a type of anti-religious political religion.[35] Such political religions vie with existing religions, and try, if possible, to replace or eradicate them.[36] Hitler and the Nazi regime attempted to found their own version of Christianity called Positive Christianity which made major changes in its interpretation of the Bible which said that Jesus Christ was the son of God, but was not a Jew, and claimed that Christ despised Jews, and that the Jews were the ones solely responsible for Christ's death."

Fascism - New World Encyclopedia

 

[Sky Dancer]

Whoever calls their opponent a Nazi first loses the debate.

 

[JBeukema]

I prefer the King James Translation as it tends to stick closer to the actual meaning.

Many scholars and theologians would contest that.

Now, can you explain the context of what a slave was back then? It was quite different than how we view it today.

They were captured and enslaved- like those brought here on the ships.

Also, like I said I am skeptical of some of these things in the Bible, since I know man has changed some of it. If Christianity really teaches that slaves as we define them were OK, then the "do unto others" principle is not true. I don't believe that and I question anything that goes against what Christ taught.

And Jesus never spoke out against slavery, but he dd say that it is good to obey the laws of the prophets when your are able- that'd include the laws above pertaining to slavery.

 

[JBeukema]

The New Language Translation is not the best. I prefer the King James Translation as it tends to stick closer to the actual meaning.

Now, can you explain the context of what a slave was back then? It was quite different than how we view it today.

Also, like I said I am skeptical of some of these things in the Bible, since I know man has changed some of it. If Christianity really teaches that slaves as we define them were OK, then the "do unto others" principle is not true. I don't believe that and I question anything that goes against what Christ taught.

A slave is a slave. Either you buy the Bible scripture or you don't. Luckily, it's not my book. I don't blame you. I'd claim it was a poor translation too. Not fun to have to justify these passages.

Definitions do change over time and the Old Testament was a long time ago. For instance, the word awful used to mean "deserving of awe". Quite different.
Here:Etymology- How Words Change Over Time

It is obviously a poor translation. Also, like I said I question anything in the Bible that would contradict at least the basic teachings of Christ. Some things were added/changed by man.

hey, if God gave a shit, he'd make sure people translated him properly- after all, it's his fucking fault we speak so many damned languages anyway, since he got jealous of out tower.

 

[JBeukema]

Secularism is as much a belief system or "religion" as is Christianity.....and these anti-Christian, anti-American Secularists are attempting to create their own form of "theocracy" in America by bastardizing our Constitution...

You remind me of

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOPoMgOBU1s]YouTube - Creationist Stupidity can be Limitless[/ame]

 

[JBeukema]

No, slavery is NOT slavery.

You really need to read the book.

 

[JBeukema]

No, I have a pretty good grasp of history.

Which you obviously don't. I wouldn't make fun of it, if I were you. It makes you appear pretty ridiculous.

You understanding of history is on par with your understanding of biology and the differences between a human and an orangutan.

 

[JBeukema]

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.

Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781"

Thomas Jefferson Quotes

Sheesh, I had a whole bunch of quotes from founding fathers and my stupid laptop hiccupped and there they all went, down the internet tube.

So I'll stick with this one for now.

Jefferson just never disappoints.

Especially when he advocates laws to keep religion out of the government in his home state.

 

[Intense]

There is no such history book...unless you find something in one of those far Right Wing revisionist history books.

Well now it's painfully obvious that none of you have read anything written by the founding fathers.

Who criticized Rome, btw.

the main question in this thread is

"was America founded on christianity"

NOT "what were our founding fathers personal religious beliefs"

consequently
going by OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS

and not biographies, autobiographies and musings

we can conclude that they intended for America to have a FREEDOM of RELIGION
that transcended mere christianity...


it is obvious that America was founded on a LOT of things...

one of which was christianity


but it was also founded on NON-christian thoughts and ideas

jefferson
or washington
or madison
may have been "christians"
but they, too, read books
non-christian books....
books that helped them to become the freedom loving men that they were...

these men
our founding fathers
founded our nation PARTLY on christianity
and partly on the musings of the greeks, the french, and other philosophers who were NOT just regurgitating christianity...



you try to use the writings of SOME of our founding fathers to prove what you want to believe
what you DEMAND EVERYONE accept

you keep trying to FORCE PEOPLE to agree with you!

to the extent that you insult them and denigrate them (like an uncivilized lout) if they don't agree with you


but in doing so you purposely choose to ignore much of what our founding fathers wrote, said and believed, apparently because these do NOT further your agenda


besides saying; "I am a christian" I guarantee that in those books you claim to read you will find these same men asserting that their beliefs have been affected by writers and thinkers and philosophers who were NOT christians

yet
you choose to ignore all of that


to say that "America was ONLY founded on christianity"
or "MOSTLY founded on christianity"

is like saying "tom brady won the super bowl with out any help from anyone else"


you give FAR TOO MUCH credit to christianity and far too little to locke

What you are missing is the Christian Principles that Madison and Jefferson applied in their reasoning, which included the Christian principle of both example and persuasion, rather than dictate, or force. Study Locke more. Locke was very critical of Christian Hypocrisy, failing to measure up, while imposing on others. Madison reflects on that in "Memorial and Remonstrance". Christianity has that built in Rectifier, when utilized, the competing Religions do not. Christianity contains the tools within itself to limit the impositions, any individual or group will use to control you. It is up to you to develop on that.