The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[AllieBaba]

It was against the law to follow non-prescribed gods.

They killed people who did.

That's the proof.

 

[bodecea]

I am glad the Founders were smart enough to write a set of laws to found and govern this country.
The folks we have here would not have wanted any today. All they want is a declaration.
The Decleration of Independence was quoted by Abraham Lincoln often and he was the first one to proclaim any religous significance. Strange how the very folks that now claim this is the moral standard of all of our laws fought that idea during the Civil War.
The declaration was after we had been at war for over a year with the British over tax disputes.
The last time I had a problem with my taxes I used the God angle also.

No, the folks here do NOT just want a declaration. It's the anti-God lunatics that want to pretend the declaration of independence is NOT a founding document, that we founded our country on Rome, and the untold numbers of discussions our founders had specifically about what a country should be built upon mean nothing.

In addition, you insist that our country is secular because it was built upon a Roman model...but Rome was a THEOCRACY.

It's just pure ignorance.

Um...the Roman Republic was not a Theocracy. I don't know what garbage you are reading telling you those lies but the Roman Republic is the framework that our founders built our Republic on...with some obvious changes. Why do you think some of the most common architectual themes in Washington D.C. are Roman like?

 

[bodecea]

It was against the law to follow non-prescribed gods.

They killed people who did.

That's the proof.

Actually, they did not...the Romans were well known for adapting, borrowing, allowing other gods...the Jews were not forced to give up Judaism, were they? The Persians were not forced to give up Mithrasism and Zoastraism were they? The Celts weren't forced to give up their religions were they? (Granted, the Druid were killed in Britain but it was a political move to wipe out the Celtic leadership)

 

[Sky Dancer]

The closest Rome ever came to becoming a theocracy was as a Christian one. Allie wants a Christian theocracy in the US.


Theodosius issued on 28 February 380 an important decree that the only true religion was Christianity and specifically the form of it that was practiced by Rome and Alexandria. At the time Pope Damasus and the Bishop of Alexandria were following the Nicene Creed. The effect of the pronouncement was to make the Nicene creed the only true and Catholic religion and to formally proscribe heresy.
Theodosius takes the Roman Empire toward Theocracy

 

[Gadawg73]

I am glad the Founders were smart enough to write a set of laws to found and govern this country.
The folks we have here would not have wanted any today. All they want is a declaration.
The Decleration of Independence was quoted by Abraham Lincoln often and he was the first one to proclaim any religous significance. Strange how the very folks that now claim this is the moral standard of all of our laws fought that idea during the Civil War.
The declaration was after we had been at war for over a year with the British over tax disputes.
The last time I had a problem with my taxes I used the God angle also.

No, the folks here do NOT just want a declaration. It's the anti-God lunatics that want to pretend the declaration of independence is NOT a founding document, that we founded our country on Rome, and the untold numbers of discussions our founders had specifically about what a country should be built upon mean nothing.

In addition, you insist that our country is secular because it was built upon a Roman model...but Rome was a THEOCRACY.

It's just pure ignorance.

I am not and have never been "anti God".
I am just as much a Christian as you or anyone else here. I have never questioned YOUR faith and Christian beliefs.
You have shown your true colors. You know you are wrong and stoop to claiming those that differ from you as "anti God". Your claims are not Christian at all.
Stop before the hole you are digging caves in on you.
Next time have the discipline and good manners to govern yourself accordingly.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Allie you have provided no proof that Rome was a theocracy, nor that the US was built on roman theocratic model.

 

[Neubarth]

Allie you have provided no proof that Rome was a theocracy, nor that the US was built on roman theocratic model.

Rome was tolerant of a multitude of gods. They even considered their Caesars to be gods along with the rest. All you had to do to placate the roman government is worship a majority of the gods and pretend to honor Caesar.

 

[Neubarth]

The closest Rome ever came to becoming a theocracy was as a Christian one. Allie wants a Christian theocracy in the US.


Theodosius issued on 28 February 380 an important decree that the only true religion was Christianity and specifically the form of it that was practiced by Rome and Alexandria. At the time Pope Damasus and the Bishop of Alexandria were following the Nicene Creed. The effect of the pronouncement was to make the Nicene creed the only true and Catholic religion and to formally proscribe heresy.
Theodosius takes the Roman Empire toward Theocracy

About this time Rome collapsed as a lasting effective government in the western half of the empire. Constantinople continued in the east.

 

[Neubarth]

400 AD Alaric and the Visigoths invade Italy, capturing much of the peninsula in the south
401 AD Vandals led by King Radagaisus invade Noricum and Raetia. Birth of emperor Theodosius II.
402 AD Vandal auxiliary general Flavius Stilicho defeats Alaric at Pollentia.
403 AD Stilicho defeats the army of Alaric in the battle of Verona, forcing Alaric to retire. Honorius moves the capital of the Western Empire to Ravenna.
405 AD Stilicho repels a barbarian invasion of Italy under Radagaisus. Martyrdom of the monk Telemachus, who is stoned to death trying to break up an arenar event, closes the colosseum and officially ends gladiatorial combat in Rome.
406 AD Vandals invades Gaul.
407 AD The last legion in Britain, Legio II Augusta, is withdrawn, and the province abandoned.
408 AD Murder of Stilicho by Honorius. Death of the eastern emperor Arcadius. Replaced by Theodosius II at age 7.
409 AD Vandals, Suevi and Alans invade Spain, forever removing it from Roman control. Alaric, after besieging Rome, decalres Attalus as emperor.
410 AD Alaric sacks Rome, the first external capture of Rome in 800 years, and deposes Attalus. Alaric dies shortly after. He is succeeded by Athaulf as the new king of the Visigoths.
412 - 413 AD Constantius III drives Alaric and the Visigoths from Italy into Gaul.
413 AD Revolt of Heraclius in Africa put down.
417 AD Visigoths settle in Aquitania, Gaul.
419 AD Birth of the Emperor Valentinian III.
420 AD Ostrogoths settle in Pannonia. Death of the Christian writer St. Jerome.
421 AD Death of Constantius III.
423 AD Death of Honorius, replaced by the biy Valentinian with Placidia as regent.
427 AD Boniface revolts in Africa.
429 AD Invited by Boniface, the Vandals in Spain, under Geiseric invade and conquer Mauretania, then Africa.
430 AD Death of the writer and Christian St. Augustine of Hippo.
430's AD Roman General Flavius Aetius campaigns against Visigoths, Burgundians and Franks in Gaul, re-establishing some Roman control.
434 AD Attila made King of the Huns.
435 AD King Theodoric I of the Visigoths besieges the Romans at Narbonne but is eventually defeated by Aetius.
436 AD Aetius defeats the Burgundians.
438 AD Theodosius publishes a code clarifying Roman law.
439 AD Geiseric of the Vandals takes Carthage.
440 AD Geiseric invades Sicily, but is bribed to leave.
441 AD Attila the Hun invades Thracia.
442 AD Britain falls to Saxon invaders, despite continuing pleas for help to Aetius.
443 AD Attila comes to terms with Theodosius and the eastern empire, focusing instead on the west.
447 AD Attila invades Moesia.
450 AD Justin I, future Byzantine emperor, is born in Illyria. Marcian succeeds Theodosius II and stops paying tribute to the Huns.
451 AD Attila invades Gaul devastating as he goes. The huns are eventually defeated by Aetius and Theodoric I the Visigoth, though Theodoric is killed and replaced by Theodoric II.
452 AD Undeterred by defeat, Attila invades Italy but decides to spare Rome and retires.
453 AD Death of Attila the Hun.
454 AD Revolts, internal power struggles and enemy attacks collapse the Hunnic empire. With the threat of the Huns gone, Valentinian has Aetius murdered for fear of his power. The Alemmani invade across the Danube.
455 AD Valentinian III murdered by supporters of Aetius. Maximus proclaimed emperor. At the request of Valentinian's widow Eudoxia, Geiseric of the Vandals invades and sacks Rome from Africa. He carries off Eudoxia and her daughters, leaving a power vacuum in the west. The Visigoths proclaim the former general of Aetius, Avitus as new emperor in the west.
456 AD 'Master of Soldiers' Ricimer launches a fleet against widescale naval attacks of the Vandals.
457 AD Majorian is proclaimed as emperor in the West and is recognized by the Eastern Emperor Leo, who had previously replaced Marcian.
460 AD Destruction of Majorian's fleet by the Vandals off Cartagena.
461 AD Death of Majorian. Libius Severus emperor.
463 AD The Goths are prevented from crossing the Loire River by the Roman general Aegidius.
465 AD Libius Severus dies. Ricimer rules as patrician under Leo in Constantinople.
466 AD Euric, King of the Visigoths, begins conquest of Spain.
467 AD Eastern Emperor Leo appoints the Roman general to emperor of the Western Empire.
468 AD Leo sends Basiliscus to crush Geiseric in Africa, but his army is destroyed.
472 AD Ricimer deposes Anthemius and installs Olybrius as western emperor, however both die shortly after of illnesses.
473 AD Glycerius set up as western Emperor.
474 AD Death of Leo, replaced by his infant grandson Leo II who also dies shortly thereafter. Zeno ascends as emperor in the east. Julius Nepos ascends as the latest puppet in the west with the support of the eastern empire.
475 AD Romulus Augustulus, son of Hunnic general Orestes installed as the 'last Roman Emperor'. Julius Nepos flees to Dalmatia.
476 AD Germanic general Odoacer, in command of the troops in Italy is proclaimed King. He desposes Romulus and offers to rule as King in the name of Zeno, the eastern emperor. Zeno prefers to keep Julius Nepos as Emperor, and Odoacer agrees, but Nepos never returns to Rome.
476 AD End of the Western Roman Empire. With Odoacer's appointment as King, the system of Roman government, first Republic than Imperial ceases to exist. After over a century of near constant invasions and usurpations, the Roman system finally collapses

 

[Sky Dancer]

Allie you have provided no proof that Rome was a theocracy, nor that the US was built on roman theocratic model.

Rome was tolerant of a multitude of gods. They even considered their Caesars to be gods along with the rest. All you had to do to placate the roman government is worship a majority of the gods and pretend to honor Caesar.

That doesn't make Rome a theocracy.

 

[bodecea]

Allie you have provided no proof that Rome was a theocracy, nor that the US was built on roman theocratic model.

Rome was tolerant of a multitude of gods. They even considered their Caesars to be gods along with the rest. All you had to do to placate the roman government is worship a majority of the gods and pretend to honor Caesar.

That doesn't make Rome a theocracy.

I don't think Neubarth was arguing they were...his post supports what we've been saying.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Secularity is the state of being free from religious or spiritual qualities. This means that religious belief should be kept in the privacy of an individual. The belief or non belief of a person is deliberately ignored by state administration. This does not mean any rejection or denial of religion.

Secularism has two distinct meanings:

1- It asserts the freedom of religion, and freedom from religion, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions.

2- It refers to a belief that human activities and decisions should be based on evidence and fact, and not superstitious beliefs, however devoutly held, and that policy should be free from religious domination.

Secular Nations

 

[Newby]

Allie you have provided no proof that Rome was a theocracy, nor that the US was built on roman theocratic model.

Rome was tolerant of a multitude of gods. They even considered their Caesars to be gods along with the rest. All you had to do to placate the roman government is worship a majority of the gods and pretend to honor Caesar.

That doesn't make Rome a theocracy.

For a period of time, I believe it was under Constantine or directly after him.

The Romans did demand that you also worshiped Caesar as a god as well, which went against christian beliefs. What I bolded above seems kind of funny to me coming from you, would you be willing to do that today?

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In its first three centuries, the Christian church endured periods of persecution at the hands of Roman authorities. Christians were persecuted by local authorities on an intermittent and ad-hoc basis. In addition, there were several periods of empire-wide persecution which was directed from the seat of government in Rome.

This experience, and the associated martyrs and apologists, would have significant historical and theological consequences for the developing faith.[1]

Among other things, persecution sparked the cult of the saints, facilitated the rapid growth and spread of Christianity, prompted defenses and explanations of Christianity (the "apologies") and, in its aftermath, raised fundamental questions about the nature of the church.

While Christianity became the state religion of the empire in 380, (see First seven Ecumenical Councils) persecution of Christians did not come to a complete halt, instead it switched to those deemed to be heretics.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Rome was tolerant of a multitude of gods. They even considered their Caesars to be gods along with the rest. All you had to do to placate the roman government is worship a majority of the gods and pretend to honor Caesar.

That doesn't make Rome a theocracy.

For a period of time, I believe it was under Constantine or directly after him.

The Romans did demand that you also worshiped Caesar as a god as well, which went against christian beliefs. What I bolded above seems kind of funny to me coming from you, would you be willing to do that today?

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In its first three centuries, the Christian church endured periods of persecution at the hands of Roman authorities. Christians were persecuted by local authorities on an intermittent and ad-hoc basis. In addition, there were several periods of empire-wide persecution which was directed from the seat of government in Rome.

This experience, and the associated martyrs and apologists, would have significant historical and theological consequences for the developing faith.[1]

Among other things, persecution sparked the cult of the saints, facilitated the rapid growth and spread of Christianity, prompted defenses and explanations of Christianity (the "apologies") and, in its aftermath, raised fundamental questions about the nature of the church.

While Christianity became the state religion of the empire in 380, (see First seven Ecumenical Councils) persecution of Christians did not come to a complete halt, instead it switched to those deemed to be heretics.

That was Neubarth'c comment not mine. What does the persecution of the Christians by the Romans have to do with the topic that America's Consitution and government are secular?

Theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler. Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion. Rome was not a theocracy and the US was never a theocracy either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy

 

[bodecea]

I would like Allie Baba to explain how the Roman Republic, which our Founders modeled our government after, persecuted Christians...when the Roman Republic fell before Jesus was even born.......

 

[Samson]

I would like Allie Baba to explain how the Roman Republic, which our Founders modeled our government after, persecuted Christians...when the Roman Republic fell before Jesus was even born.......

For goddsake Bod....I'll delete this post if you delete the original....

 

[Newby]

I would like Allie Baba to explain how the Roman Republic, which our Founders modeled our government after, persecuted Christians...when the Roman Republic fell before Jesus was even born.......

For goddsake Bod....I'll delete this post if you delete the original....

Yeah, that's a bit embarassing there, no doubt. Hopefully it was a joke.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Roman Republic was a very successful government. It lasted from 510 BC until 23 BC - almost 500 years.
A brief History of Rome

Allie claims the US was patterned after the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Bodecea has it right.

 

[Newby]

The Roman Republic was a very successful government. It lasted from 510 BC until 23 BC - almost 500 years.
A brief History of Rome

Allie claims the US was patterned after the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Bodecea has it right.

But from what I read the conversation was about the Roman Empire, I haven't read the whole thing, just the last several pages.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Roman Republic was a very successful government. It lasted from 510 BC until 23 BC - almost 500 years.
A brief History of Rome

Allie claims the US was patterned after the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. Bodecea has it right.

But from what I read the conversation was about the Roman Empire, I haven't read the whole thing, just the last several pages.

The point Allie was making was that the republic of the US was founded on the republic of rome and she claimed rome was a theocracy. I haven't read any history books attributing our form of government to the Roman empire.

Here's more food for thought:

The first thing to note about the Constitution of the United States is that it proposes three branches of government, separate but equal, each with their own enumerated powers. This is a strange setup considering that the Bible does not describe any human governance remotely resembling the system established by the Constitution. There are only two basic types of governance mentioned in the Bible at all, really: monarchies and the rule by Judges.

Additionally, in the Declaration of Independence, the Founding Fathers clearly state that governments “deriv[e] their just powers from the consent of the governed.” This is at odds with the Letter of Paul to the Romans, where Paul clearly states that “there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.” Indeed, according to Paul, all of the Founding Fathers who participated in the American Revolution were sinful, because “whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.”
http://www.hereticalideas.com/2008/12/is-american-government-based-on-christianity/