The Unenforceability of abortion bans

[Blues Man]

Liberty Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Liberty is the right to exercise the rights enumerated by the constitution or available or under natural law. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment declares that no State shall deprive

definitions.uslegal.com

Nobody said it would, Dumbass. Especially the definition of Viable.

• MEDICINE
  (of a fetus or unborn child) able to live after birth.
  "what if the fetus were viable

Your bullshit has been destroyed.

Nope

Because you assume birth is a full term birth.

All birth means is that a fetus is evacuated from the womb which can happen anytime during pregnancy.

A birth can be medically induced at any time, can be induced by a trauma etc.

so don;t ASSUME

 

[Blues Man]

why do you need me to define liberty?

Because you don't think liberty encompasses the making of personal medical decisions so what is your definition?

 

[Flash]

So the law is one that is designed to be applied unequally and that is the very definition of unconstitutional.

https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1263&context=law_lawreview&httpsredir=1&referer=

3. Convictions Under The “Born Alive” Rule
Many courts have upheld homicide convictions when the unb orn child
was injured and then born alive before its death. 42 In State v. Cotton,43 the
defendant accidentally shot his girlfriend, who was eight and a half
months pregnant, in the back of the head. 44 While the girlfriend died
shortly after the accident, the child was born alive and died the next day. 45
The Arizona Court of Appeals concluded that the child was a “person”
under Arizona’s homicide statute 46 and held “that Arizona’s homicide
statutes apply to the killing of a child who is born alive even if the death
results from injuries inflicted [by the defendant] before birth.” 47 Thus, the
defendant could be charged with the child’s murder. 48
In People v. Taylor, 49 the defendant punched his girlfriend, who was
seven months pregnant, once in the head and six times in the stomach. 50
The defendant yelled, “I don't want this baby. I don't want this bitch to
have my baby.” 51 Later the same day, the child was delivered by
Caesarean section, but the baby died one month later due to injuries
sustained while still in the womb. 52 The California Court of Appeals
concluded that if “(1) a defendant, acting with malice aforethought toward
the fetus in a woman's womb, assaults the woman; (2) in consequence, the
fetus must be delivered prematurely; and (3) the fetus is born alive but
later dies of causes to which the pr ematurity contributed substantially, the
defendant has murdered a human being.” 53 The court opined that the
timing of the defendant’s actions was i rrelevant and instead held that the
victim’s status as a human being at the time of death was determinative.5


In State v. Horne, 63 Horne attacked his wife who was nine months
pregnant with a knife. 64 A lower court convicted him of assault and battery
with intent to kill and voluntary manslaughter with respect to the unborn,
full-term, viable female child.65 The issue before the South Carolina
Supreme Court was whether an unborn child was a “person” within South
Carolina’s murder statute. 66 The court had previously determined that a
wrongful death action “could be maintained for a viable, unborn fetus”

 

[Nostra]

Liberty Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Liberty is the right to exercise the rights enumerated by the constitution or available or under natural law. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment declares that no State shall deprive

definitions.uslegal.com

Nope

Because you assume birth is a full term birth.

All birth means is that a fetus is evacuated from the womb which can happen anytime during pregnancy.

A birth can be medically induced at any time, can be induced by a trauma etc.

so don;t ASSUME

what you are describing is miscarriage, or abortion, not birth.


And another definition destroys your bullshit lies……

birth DEFINITIONS AND SYNONYMS ‌‌‌​

NOUN
US/bɜrθ/


the occasion of a baby being born

 

[Nostra]

Because you don't think liberty encompasses the making of personal medical decisions so what is your definition?

I never said that.

You are having a rough day. Baby Killer Cultists like you are having a lot of those lately.

 

[Blues Man]

https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1263&context=law_lawreview&httpsredir=1&referer=

3. Convictions Under The “Born Alive” Rule
Many courts have upheld homicide convictions when the unb orn child
was injured and then born alive before its death. 42 In State v. Cotton,43 the
defendant accidentally shot his girlfriend, who was eight and a half
months pregnant, in the back of the head. 44 While the girlfriend died
shortly after the accident, the child was born alive and died the next day. 45
The Arizona Court of Appeals concluded that the child was a “person”
under Arizona’s homicide statute 46 and held “that Arizona’s homicide
statutes apply to the killing of a child who is born alive even if the death
results from injuries inflicted [by the defendant] before birth.” 47 Thus, the
defendant could be charged with the child’s murder. 48
In People v. Taylor, 49 the defendant punched his girlfriend, who was
seven months pregnant, once in the head and six times in the stomach. 50
The defendant yelled, “I don't want this baby. I don't want this bitch to
have my baby.” 51 Later the same day, the child was delivered by
Caesarean section, but the baby died one month later due to injuries
sustained while still in the womb. 52 The California Court of Appeals
concluded that if “(1) a defendant, acting with malice aforethought toward
the fetus in a woman's womb, assaults the woman; (2) in consequence, the
fetus must be delivered prematurely; and (3) the fetus is born alive but
later dies of causes to which the pr ematurity contributed substantially, the
defendant has murdered a human being.” 53 The court opined that the
timing of the defendant’s actions was i rrelevant and instead held that the
victim’s status as a human being at the time of death was determinative.5


In State v. Horne, 63 Horne attacked his wife who was nine months
pregnant with a knife. 64 A lower court convicted him of assault and battery
with intent to kill and voluntary manslaughter with respect to the unborn,
full-term, viable female child.65 The issue before the South Carolina
Supreme Court was whether an unborn child was a “person” within South
Carolina’s murder statute. 66 The court had previously determined that a
wrongful death action “could be maintained for a viable, unborn fetus”

Not the same law.

And you'll notice that the fetus must be BORN ALIVE for this law to be in effect.

Causing a miscarriage is not subject to the BORN ALIVE law.

The Constitution uses the word person to describe a born person so the born alive law is perfectly in line with the Constitution.

The charging of a person with murder for causing a miscarriage is not.

 

[Blues Man]

what you are describing is miscarriage, or abortion, not birth.


And another definition destroys your bullshit lies……

birth DEFINITIONS AND SYNONYMS ‌‌‌​

NOUN
US/bɜrθ/


the occasion of a baby being born

The definition of birth

Definition of BIRTH

the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent; the act or process of bringing forth young from the womb; a state resulting from being born especially at a particular time or place… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

you'll notice it says nothing about WHEN that offspring is separated from the mother or whether that offspring is alive or not.

 

[OKTexas]

Over half of all abortions are done with abortion pills. With the new bans in Red States, that number will increase

Not much Red States can do stop these pills from being shipped into their states.
I also envision “abortion tourism” with low priced buses taking patients for “medical treatment” in other states

Funny how preventing unwanted pregnancies never enters commie conversations. Can't possibly have personal responsibility, RIGHT!

.

 

[Nostra]

The definition of birth

Definition of BIRTH

the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent; the act or process of bringing forth young from the womb; a state resulting from being born especially at a particular time or place… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

you'll notice it says nothing about WHEN that offspring is separated from the mother or whether that offspring is alive or not.

Yep. That one destroys your bullshit too.

Now go look up “miscarriage”, Dipshit.

 

[Flash]

Not the same law.

And you'll notice that the fetus must be BORN ALIVE for this law to be in effect.

Causing a miscarriage is not subject to the BORN ALIVE law.

The Constitution uses the word person to describe a born person so the born alive law is perfectly in line with the Constitution.

The charging of a person with murder for causing a miscarriage is not.

You didn't read the cases. These are state laws derived from the Federal law. In all cases the courts affirmed that an unborn fetus was to be treated the same as a born person. You said earlier that was not the case so you are confused about it.

Only idiot Moon Bats that are ignorant in Biology would claim that a fetus is not a human being. The Federal and many state laws certainly recognize that a fetus is a human being protected by the law. You were wrong when you claimed other wise. Just admit it and then we won't ridicule you for your stupidity.

 

[WelfareQueen]

The biggest problem I see with those on the anti-abortion side is that they never tell you how they are going to enforce a ban on abortion.

Lest, we forget, the main reason why the Court (including 5 Republicans) voted to end abortion laws in the US is because they were being routinely ignored by women and their health care providers. The court was merely recognizing the reality the prudes failed to admit.

If anyone doubts this, we only need to look at the birth rates for the 1970's.

Live Births and Birth Rates, by Year

The following table shows the number of live births and the birth rate in the United States between 1910 and...

www.infoplease.com

1970​	3,731,386​	18.4​
1971​	3,555,970​	17.2​
1972​	3,258,411​	15.6​
1973​	3,136,965​	14.9​
1974​	3,159,958​	14.9​
1975​	3,144,198​	14.8​
1976​	3,167,788​	14.8​

There was no sudden drop in the live birth rate because abortions were now available. In fact, it leveled off in 1973.

Why? Because abortion laws were being routinely ignored. Despite all the horror stories told by the abortion rights side about coat hangers and Lysol, most women were ending unwanted pregnancies in the comfort of their OB/GYN's office. Women were never arrested for having abortions, and providers were rarely prosecuted unless some kind of negligence that injured the women was involved

So you get the laws on the books you want in half the country, what happens? Abortions will simply move from abortion clinics back to OB/GYN offices.

if anything, an abortion ban will be harder to enforce in 2022 than in 1973, because more states WILL keep it legal now, because it will be much easier to cross state lines, and because the option of pharmaceutical abortions will be available.

Laws only really work when you have universal agreement there should be a law. If you don't, police won't investigate, prosecutors won't file charges, and juries won't convict.

The first prosecution for a woman for having an abortion will be a lightening rod of unpopularity. The only time I remember Trump ever backing down from saying something really stupid ws when he said that women should be punished for having abortions, and then immediately reversing himself.

Donald Trump retracts call for women who have abortions to be 'punished'

Republican frontrunner tells MSNBC there needs to be ‘some form of punishment’ for women, though he later disavowed controversial remarks

www.theguardian.com

Great. So remind me again why Dims have their panties in such a twist?

 

[Blues Man]

Yep. That one destroys your bullshit too.

Now go look up “miscarriage”, Dipshit.

No it doesn't.

The definition of birth does not imply full term or even live birth.

 

[Blues Man]

You didn't read the cases. These are state laws derived from the Federal law. In all cases the courts affirmed that an unborn fetus was to be treated the same as a born person. You said earlier that was not the case so you are confused about it.

Only idiot Moon Bats that are ignorant in Biology would claim that a fetus is not a human being. The Federal and many state laws certainly recognize that a fetus is a human being protected by the law. You were wrong when you claimed other wise. Just admit it and then we won't ridicule you for your stupidity.

I never claimed a fetus wasn't human. One thing it isn't is a born person and only born persons are granted constitutional rights

The unborn have no protected rights under the Constitution and never have.

We have yet to see the Supreme Court rule whether it is constitutional to charge a person with murder for inducing a miscarriage.

 

[BackAgain]

I never said it did .

I am saying that a fetus has no legal rights and never will and that a fetus does not have rights where the woman is a person that does.

At present, you’re already wrong depending on what state the fetus happens to be in and what it’s stage of development is. But going forward, it may be assumed that you will be progressively more and more wrong.

 

[Nostra]

No it doesn't.

The definition of birth does not imply full term or even live birth.

You really are stupid.

There is a reason we have the word “miscarriage “.

 

[Flopper]

The biggest problem I see with those on the anti-abortion side is that they never tell you how they are going to enforce a ban on abortion.

Lest, we forget, the main reason why the Court (including 5 Republicans) voted to end abortion laws in the US is because they were being routinely ignored by women and their health care providers. The court was merely recognizing the reality the prudes failed to admit.

If anyone doubts this, we only need to look at the birth rates for the 1970's.

Live Births and Birth Rates, by Year

The following table shows the number of live births and the birth rate in the United States between 1910 and...

www.infoplease.com

1970​	3,731,386​	18.4​
1971​	3,555,970​	17.2​
1972​	3,258,411​	15.6​
1973​	3,136,965​	14.9​
1974​	3,159,958​	14.9​
1975​	3,144,198​	14.8​
1976​	3,167,788​	14.8​

There was no sudden drop in the live birth rate because abortions were now available. In fact, it leveled off in 1973.

Why? Because abortion laws were being routinely ignored. Despite all the horror stories told by the abortion rights side about coat hangers and Lysol, most women were ending unwanted pregnancies in the comfort of their OB/GYN's office. Women were never arrested for having abortions, and providers were rarely prosecuted unless some kind of negligence that injured the women was involved

So you get the laws on the books you want in half the country, what happens? Abortions will simply move from abortion clinics back to OB/GYN offices.

if anything, an abortion ban will be harder to enforce in 2022 than in 1973, because more states WILL keep it legal now, because it will be much easier to cross state lines, and because the option of pharmaceutical abortions will be available.

Laws only really work when you have universal agreement there should be a law. If you don't, police won't investigate, prosecutors won't file charges, and juries won't convict.

The first prosecution for a woman for having an abortion will be a lightening rod of unpopularity. The only time I remember Trump ever backing down from saying something really stupid ws when he said that women should be punished for having abortions, and then immediately reversing himself.

Donald Trump retracts call for women who have abortions to be 'punished'

Republican frontrunner tells MSNBC there needs to be ‘some form of punishment’ for women, though he later disavowed controversial remarks

www.theguardian.com

You're probably right. The reason being, neither patient nor doctor was willing to admit to the abortion thus prosecution was difficult. Today with HIPPA privacy laws in effect, subpoenaing medical records when the patient opposes the subpoena would be even more difficult. In fact, without strong evidence that the doctor performed the abortion, no federal judge or state judge would allow such a subpoena.

I think the major impact of overturning Rowe is going to be closing abortion clinics in red states, increase in back alley abortions, a large increase in out of state abortions, increase use of the abortions pill, and a sharp increase in the deaths of women from illegal abortions.

I don't think there will be a big decrease in the number of abortions for several reasons.

• The majority of abortions occur in blue state where abortion will be legal.
• Out of state abortions will increase dramatically, with financial help for travel from a number of organizations.
• Some states will soften abortion laws to allow for incest, rape, and medical reasons.
• Illegal abortions, use the abortion bill, and increase of contraceptive devices will increase.

One untended consequence maybe an increase use of contraceptives in states where abortion is illegal leading to lower birth rates.

State Abortion Statistics

Comparative state abortion stats by rank, total, percentage, and clinics.

abort73.com

 

[Flash]

I never claimed a fetus wasn't human. One thing it isn't is a born person and only born persons are granted constitutional rights

The unborn have no protected rights under the Constitution and never have.

We have yet to see the Supreme Court rule whether it is constitutional to charge a person with murder for inducing a miscarriage.

These are your words: "Before it is born the fetus has no rights".

That is absolutely wrong and I showed you the Federal law and some state court cases that disproved what you said.

Are you high on pot today?

 

[rightwinger]

Funny how preventing unwanted pregnancies never enters commie conversations. Can't possibly have personal responsibility, RIGHT!

.

You are the ones blocking insurance coverage of birth control and closing Planned Parenthood locations

 

[Nostra]

You are the ones blocking insurance coverage of birth control and closing Planned Parenthood locations

Even if your bullshit was true, explain how that absolves one of personal responsibility.

 

[JoeB131]

um the court didn’t vote ban abortion or end all abortion. laws in the united states

if the draft is true, then nothing happens to abortion laws in each state that is on the books. They are still valid

If the draft is true, then the fight changes, but you have the overall problem.

All these laws are unenforceable for reasons stated.