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I’m talking about the conditions around each persons existence… not existence as a whole. In the end what happens in our lifetimes, which is a spec in infinity, really doesn’t matter. Whether we end up in heaven or hell is what matters. To those in hell do you think they would say existence is good?I’m scratching my head at you arguing existence isn’t good when you already admitted the good far outweighs the bad.
That’s your call to see it that way.Agains I appreciate the perspective but I just don’t see it as reality. For those who interpret it like you then yes good can come from bad. For others it doesn’t t work that way. They may suffer a loss, go into deep depression and then decide to end their own life bacise it hurts so bad. They may then blame and reject god which under your theory would land that person in hell for the rest of time… for that individual person…. I don’t see how existence can be a good thing. If that person were me I think I’d opt to not exist wouldnt you?
Yes lots of people here in earth think that way until it comes down to it. Many others do actually end their own lives. But now let’s ask those bound to an eternity in hell. What would they say?That’s your call to see it that way.
Lots of people think they would opt to not exist until it comes time for it.
Interesting. So those people whose existence is bad is bad all the time? No joy? No happiness? No love?Within your described reality I would define existence good for some bad for others. Those in heaven it’s good, those in hell bad. Would you not agree?
I would hope they would say they fucked up.Yes lots of people here in earth think that way until it comes down to it. Many others do actually end their own lives. But now let’s ask those bound to an eternity in hell. What would they say?
You aren’t being realistic. It’s not all bad. The good far outweighs the bad and what bad there is works for good.I’m talking about the conditions around each persons existence… not existence as a whole. In the end what happens in our lifetimes, which is a spec in infinity, really doesn’t matter. Whether we end up in heaven or hell is what matters. To those in hell do you think they would say existence is good?
Not in hell… unless are you saying those things exist in hell?So those people whose existence is bad is bad all the time? No joy? No happiness? No love?
I’m sure they would say they fucked up… but after let’s say a trillion years with no good. Do you think they would say existence is mostly good for them?I would hope they would say they fucked up.
It’s actually not many according to the statistics. You need to look at the full distribution to compare the percentage that do and the percentage that don’t, right?Many others do actually end their own lives.
I just don’t agree that this statement holds true for those who are damned to hell.You aren’t being realistic. It’s not all bad. The good far outweighs the bad and what bad there is works for good.
Not talking about hell. Our discussion is about all existence being good or not.Not in hell… unless are you saying those things exist in hell?
Many is subjective in the way I used it. You know the old saying 1 is too many. Point is people do this and for those people I don’t see how the good outweighs the bad if they end up in hellIt’s actually not many according to the statistics. You need to look at the full distribution to compare the percentage that do and the percentage that don’t, right?
So do you still believe many are s an objective statement?
But it is for our existence in the material world, right?I just don’t agree that this statement holds true for those who are damned to hell.
Hell is part of existence is it not? If you’re going to spend an eternity somewhere after this life then that is what will define your existence. You just said that hell is the absence of god and the absence of good. Right? So existence is a bad thing for those souls.Not talking about hell. Our discussion is about all existence being good or not.
It’s true for some… those who commit suicide, die as babies, and live in pain and suffering and depression. Not so much. But I have to keep coming back to the main point that the place you go for eternity is the place that matters. That’s what defines whether existence is good or badBut it is for our existence in the material world, right?
Do you see hell in our existence? Are you trying to tell me you have been discussing hell this entire time?Hell is part of existence is it not? If you’re going to spend an eternity somewhere after this life then that is what will define your existence. You just said that hell is the absence of god and the absence of good. Right? So existence is a bad thing for those souls.
This is why the theory i mentioned earlier of enlightening the soul through many lives until it is ready to accept god and go to heaven is the best theological story IMO
Probably because the evidence overwhelmingly shows that good far outweighs the bad in our existence. And what bad there is is mostly do to men who you think God should have done a better job of making.It’s true for some… those who commit suicide, die as babies, and live in pain and suffering and depression. Not so much. But I have to keep coming back to the main point that the place you go for eternity is the place that matters. That’s what defines whether existence is good or bad
Politics. Can't get away from themSatan’s Rebellion
By Mark A. Mathews
Seminaries and Institutes
The author lives in Utah, USA.
What is the true nature of what Satan proposed in the premortal council?
When I was a young man, I began noticing a curious tendency among some Church members. When they saw a situation where rules were agreed upon and consequences for disobedience were applied (for example, in Church discipline, parental discipline, or enforcing mission rules or standards of conduct at Church schools), they would often say, “But isn’t that like Satan’s approach? Aren’t they forcing people to be righteous?”
This response was surprising to me at first—how could someone think that practices approved of by the Lord and His Church could be part of “Satan’s plan”? I have since come to realize that misunderstandings like this about Satan’s rebellion and the War in Heaven are actually quite common, as are hasty accusations of what looks like that plan today. Unfortunately, these doctrinal misunderstandings can lead to damaging results.
For example, these misunderstandings could lead some parents to think they cannot encourage their children to attend church. They can lead Church members to support the legalization of serious moral sin. And these misunderstandings can even lead some Church members to think that making and keeping covenants and commitments of obedience is somehow contrary to God’s plan when, ironically, such covenant obedience is central to God’s true plan of salvation.
What the Scriptures Say
Some ideas about what Satan proposed in the premortal world appear to come more from tradition than from actual revelation on the subject. As a result, it is helpful to return to the scriptures themselves to find out what the Lord has actually revealed on this important matter. In the scriptures, the primary source on what Satan proposed is in the first verses of the fourth chapter of Moses:
“And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
“But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
“Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
“And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice” (Moses 4:1–4).
The Father of All Lies
From these verses it is clear that our Heavenly Father did not ask for volunteers to invent and present different and competing plans of salvation, as some have assumed. Rather, it was our Heavenly Father’s plan, and He presented it to His spirit children who were gathered in the Grand Council in Heaven. Jesus Christ, who was “chosen from the beginning” to be the Savior in that plan, humbly proposed that Heavenly Father’s plan be sustained, saying, “Father, thy will [i.e., plan] be done.” It was in this setting that Satan made an unwelcome and arrogant proposal to change Heavenly Father’s plan so that it provided universal salvation for everyone (see Moses 4:1). Before we discuss how he claimed to accomplish this, it is important to note that Satan is referred to in these verses as “the father of all lies” (Moses 4:4). On another occasion he is called “a liar from the beginning” (D&C 93:25). We would be absurdly naïve to assume that Satan was telling the truth when he made this exaggerated claim of universal salvation.
If we understand Satan’s character and history, it would be more appropriate to view him as the first con man trying to sell us a product that he knew he could never provide. He alleged that he could give us all salvation if we would follow him rather than the plan our Heavenly Father had created for our salvation and which was upheld by our Savior Jesus Christ.
What Satan proposed was a lie. It would not have worked. It was not a viable alternative to Heavenly Father’s already perfect plan, but rather it was a trap set to ensnare and deceive people into following Satan. It was, in the end, a plan of damnation, not a plan of salvation.
Destroying Agency
Importantly, these verses of scripture do not clearly state how Satan proposed to carry out this lie. All that the scriptures state is that it would “destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3). President J. Reuben Clark (1871–1961), First Counselor in the First Presidency, suggested two main possibilities for what Satan proposed to do and reminded us that neither would have worked. He explained: “As I read the scriptures, Satan’s plan required one of two things: Either the compulsion of … man, or else saving men in sin. I question whether the intelligence of man can be compelled. Certainly men cannot be saved in sin” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1949, 193; quoted in Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual [2010], 15).
Although neither of these possibilities would have worked, we see elements of each in Satan’s efforts and tactics today. For example, compulsion and force are used today by tyrants seeking power over nations and by political activists who seek to limit religious freedom and compel society to accept sinful behavior. The Lord has specifically condemned the exercise of “control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness” (D&C 121:37).
However, the Lord also explained that power and influence can be used to encourage righteousness by loving persuasion, righteous reproof, and appropriate consequences (see D&C 121:41–43). This important clarification shows that carrying out proper Church and parental discipline, enforcing rules and standards in missions and Church schools, and establishing righteous laws in society are all practices approved of the Lord and not part of “Satan’s plan.” Honoring agency does not mean embracing anarchy.
The second possibility for how Satan proposed to save everyone is described in the Bible Dictionary: “Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication” (“War in Heaven”). In other words, another interpretation is that Satan proposed to save us all, no matter what we did. This would destroy agency by rendering it useless. If consequences of our choices were all removed and everyone received the same reward, our choices become meaningless and our agency is destroyed.
This interpretation of how Satan proposed to save us is also seen in many of his efforts and tactics that we are familiar with today. Satan is constantly promising people that they can live a life of sin and still be saved or that they can find happiness in wickedness. This seductive message of easy salvation and a lifestyle of sin is very popular today, as was Satan’s proposal in the War in Heaven, when “many followed after him” (Abraham 3:28).
We can see by these examples that Satan’s approach has not changed much since premortality. Satan continues to lie to people by promising them that if they follow him they will be saved or be happy or whatever else they want to hear. He also continues to use compulsion to try to force his unrighteous views and practices on others. Thus, “the warfare is continued in mortality. … The same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake” (Bible Dictionary, “War in Heaven”).
A Plan of Rebellion
Perhaps the simplest way to describe Satan’s plan is not based on speculative theories about what Satan proposed to do but on what his plan led him and his followers to actually do—that is, rebel. The scriptures repeatedly state that Satan openly rebelled against God. For example, the Lord declared that “Satan rebelled against me” (Moses 4:3); “an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God … rebelled against the Only Begotten Son” (D&C 76:25); and “he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power” (D&C 29:36).
From these verses it is clear that Satan’s proposal was not an innocent suggestion to amend God’s plan. It was a rebellion, a revolt, an attempted mutiny to dethrone God and take over heaven. Those who followed Satan declared war in heaven and made themselves enemies to God. Their agency was destroyed because they refused to choose “liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator,” and instead chose “captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27). As a result, “a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from [God] because of their agency” (D&C 29:36).
In other words, the simplest way to view Satan’s plan is as a plan of rebellion and disobedience to God. In contrast, God summarized His plan in these words: “And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abraham 3:25). In addition, “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3). Thus, God’s plan is a plan of obedience and righteousness, while Satan’s plan is one of disobedience and rebellion.
Recognizing the Plan
Properly understanding the difference between God’s plan and Satan’s goals will help us more clearly discern who is and who is not really following Satan. It will help us avoid accusing those who encourage righteousness and advocate obedience of following Satan’s plan when they are actually following God’s plan. It will also expose the true followers of Satan’s plan today.
Those who protest and rebel against God and His prophets, those who seek to change God’s plan, those who demand a lowering of the standards of righteousness and seek to compel others to accept immoral behavior, and those who seek to deceive people into believing that wickedness is happiness and that we can find salvation in sin all support different elements of Satan’s rebellious strategy.
May we follow Heavenly Father’s true plan, a plan of salvation “through the Atonement of Christ” and by “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).
If hell is a place we can go after we die then it is part of our existence. Ive been talking about both this life and the afterlife. I don’t see how you can talk about existence without considering where we spend an eternity after we dieDo you see hell in our existence? Are you trying to tell me you have been discussing hell this entire time?
When did you believe I was talking about hell?
Who was it that changed the subject?
The amount is good vs bad in the 0-100 years we spend in this life has no significance compare to where we spend the rest of eternity. You could have 100 great years with very little bad in this world and then die and go to hell for the rest of eternity. Don’t you think that soul in hell would have preferred to never have existed at all?Probably because the evidence overwhelmingly shows that good far outweighs the bad in our existence. And what bad there is is mostly do to men who you think God should have done a better job of making.
