Zone1 The War In Heaven

[ding]

That’s a good approach. Where are you at with this one after your examinations? You’ve made some points that I’ve never heard of from the Bible or religious doctrine… Where are you getting those from?

I just realized you were asking about where my beliefs on judgment, heaven and hell came from.

Mostly logic and Catholic belief. An honest discussion on judgement, heaven and hell cannot be had unless one takes the position that God exists. Not saying you have to believe it but to work through those questions you must assume God exists to work through it logically. Logically, God doesn’t destroy what he creates because what he created IS good. Catholic thought teaches heaven is being eternally united with God and hell is being eternally separated from God. Catholic thought teaches we have been redeemed. Logic tells us if we have been redeemed then the only way to be separated from God is voluntarily or involuntarily. For us to involuntarily reject God it must mean we are incapable of receiving God’s love. So I don’t believe God will ever reject us. I believe we reject God.

 

[Slade3200]

Thanks. Not sure which specific points you are talking about though. You’d be surprised at the number of diverse secular subjects that have informed my journey; normalization of deviance, locus of control, origin of the universe, the nature of matter, the evolution of space and time, the linkage between mind and matter, the cycle of nations, physical laws of nature, biological laws of nature, moral laws of nature, etc.

I have also relied upon non-secular sources and have studied the major religions. I found they were more similar to each other than dissimilar. I found that their teachings of what I will call successful behaviors like forgiveness, confession, sacrifice, thankfulness, traditions, worship, etc all had practical applications that led to happiness or peace through the storm. Which led to my having a personal relationship with God and self reflection. Which in my opinion is the only true way for confirmation. In other words, the proof will always be in the pudding.

At the end of the day I concluded through observation and experience that it’s too much of a coincidence for the universe to pop into existence being hardwired to produce intelligence.

I appreciate and understand the self journey and finding that relationship with God, that’s a personal thing and different for every individual. But what about the elements of eternity and heaven/hell that you were describing. Where did you get those from?

 

[Slade3200]

I just realized you were asking about where my beliefs on judgment, heaven and hell came from.

Mostly logic and Catholic belief. An honest discussion on judgement, heaven and hell cannot be had unless one takes the position that God exists. Not saying you have to believe it but to work through those questions you must assume God exists to work through it logically. Logically, God doesn’t destroy what he creates because what he created IS good. Catholic thought teaches heaven is being eternally united with God and hell is being eternally separated from God. Catholic thought teaches we have been redeemed. Logic tells us if we have been redeemed then the only way to be separated from God is voluntarily or involuntarily. For us to involuntarily reject God it must mean we are incapable of receiving God’s love. So I don’t believe God will ever reject us. I believe we reject God.

I agree that the tricky part of religious talks always seems to come down to whether the two parties believe that God exists and/or whether they believe the Bible is literal and true or not. I have an easy time accepting the existence of God but not the one defined by the Bible or any other man. So I can’t take arguments seriously that use the Bible as their source of backup. Doesn’t stop me from discussing it though, still enjoy the discussions.

As for your theory about heaven and hell. I follow you up to the point of judgement and eternity. The God you paint and the God the old school Catholics painted sound very different. I remember reading this sermon where God was holding us over the pit of hell dropping the sinners in for an eternity of suffering. It was an obvious fear tactic which many religions and political leaders used but to me it was a manipulation and a falsehood.

The God of love that you describe makes more sense. The contradiction I see in your logic is the eternity in hell part. Even if a souls makes bad choices and rejects God, the concept is eternal damnation without the option of reconciliation is very UnGodlike. Especially given the variety of challenges and circumstances that us humans experience in life.

The Philosophy that has always rang nicely in my ears is the one where there is no hell. Just heaven. And our souls are reincarnated through many different lives until it reaches a level of experience and enlightenment to join god in heaven.

 

[ding]

…As for your theory about heaven and hell. I follow you up to the point of judgement and eternity. The God you paint and the God the old school Catholics painted sound very different. I remember reading this sermon where God was holding us over the pit of hell dropping the sinners in for an eternity of suffering. It was an obvious fear tactic which many religions and political leaders used but to me it was a manipulation and a falsehood.

The God of love that you describe makes more sense. The contradiction I see in your logic is the eternity in hell part. Even if a souls makes bad choices and rejects God, the concept is eternal damnation without the option of reconciliation is very UnGodlike. Especially given the variety of challenges and circumstances that us humans experience in life.

The Philosophy that has always rang nicely in my ears is the one where there is no hell. Just heaven. And our souls are reincarnated through many different lives until it reaches a level of experience and enlightenment to join god in heaven.

Free will has consequences. It’s not God’s fault if after exercising free will man is unable to tolerate receiving God. That’s not God rejecting man. That’s man rejecting God. With that said I believes he shares with each person what they can tolerate - that we each experience God to the limit of our capacity - but I don’t assume everyone has capacity to receive God.

You’re perception of God is what C.S. Lewis referred to as “God Lite.” All of the fun with none of the messy sacrifices. It places no obligation on us whatsoever. It sounds wonderful but I don’t see how it could be helpful to one’s journey.

 

[ding]

I agree that the tricky part of religious talks always seems to come down to whether the two parties believe that God exists and/or whether they believe the Bible is literal and true or not. I have an easy time accepting the existence of God but not the one defined by the Bible or any other man. So I can’t take arguments seriously that use the Bible as their source of backup. Doesn’t stop me from discussing it though, still enjoy the discussions.

Have you ever considered it’s your bias that is preventing you from understanding the message of the authors?

There’s a lot of allegory and embellishment in the passages. It takes quite a bit of effort to work through the context and possible meanings. Something that someone who dismisses it as a fairytale wouldn’t even begin to attempt. This is especially true for the 1st eleven chapters. It is helpful to remember that ancient man passed down information - historical events, answers to the origin questions, understanding man’s place and important truths - orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before they were written down. Allegory and embellishment made the accounts more memorable and easier to pass down orally as stories. I imagine the level of discussion on each account’s meaning would have been impressive. Much of that has been lost through the passage of time.

My point here is that if you dismiss it as fairytale without actually looking for an interpretation that makes sense, then you haven’t made an objective assessment and the only person you are harming is you.

 

[Slade3200]

Free will has consequences. It’s not God’s fault if after exercising free will man is unable to tolerate receiving God. That’s not God rejecting man. That’s man rejecting God. With that said I believes he shares with each person what they can tolerate - that we each experience God to the limit of our capacity - but I don’t assume everyone has capacity to receive God.

You’re perception of God is what C.S. Lewis referred to as “God Lite.” All of the fun with none of the messy sacrifices. It places no obligation on us whatsoever. It sounds wonderful but I don’t see how it could be helpful to one’s journey.

Much of that sounds man made to me. There needs to be fear and sacrifice and discipline to keep order and religions used that for centuries to control people.

Saying stuff like “after exercising free will” that’s indicating a linear timeline. How do you know God lives in a linear reality. That certainly wouldn’t align with the concept of eternity or infinite.

It also doesn’t make sense in the realm of eternity to base a forever on a single solitary life experience with such a diversity of circumstances.

Your explanation makes sense on an institutional level with the agenda of teaching morals, discipline, accountability and keeping social order.

On a deeper spiritual level accepting the things we know we don’t know, it isn’t convincing to me

 

[ding]

The God you paint and the God the old school Catholics painted sound very different. I remember reading this sermon where God was holding us over the pit of hell dropping the sinners in for an eternity of suffering. It was an obvious fear tactic which many religions and political leaders used but to me it was a manipulation and a falsehood.

I don’t believe it is different though. I was raised Catholic and fell away when I went off to college. I’ve read the catechism and other works. I have never once heard a sermon or read any Catholic work on suffering the eternal fate of hell or on the joys of being in heaven. Every single sermon or book has been on living. How to live and how not to live.

The God I am painting is very much the God that is taught in Catholicism. They may not say it in the same words but they are saying God does not reject us. If we become separated from God, it’s because we chose it for whatever reason.

It’s your view of the Catholic view that is wrong.

 

[ding]

Especially given the variety of challenges and circumstances that us humans experience in life.

Speaking of that… a lot of people have a hard time reconciling how there can be suffering if God is all powerful and good.

It’s important to remember that logically it must be that God's power is not put forward to get certain things done, but to get them done in a certain way, and with certain results in the lives of those who do them.

 

[BackAgain]

As a kind of side note: I got briefly interested yesterday in the notion of a war in heaven. So I did a little digging.

The Biblical references do not describe the use of weapons or any killing. It apparently did involve (according to the words in the Bible) the tossing down to Hell of those who transgressed the laws of God (amounting to doubting Him or casting aspersions about Him).

I suspect that the use of the word “war”is therefore inaccurate.

It also involved a dragon.

Revelation 12:7​

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”

King James Version (KJV)

 

[ding]

Much of that sounds man made to me. There needs to be fear and sacrifice and discipline to keep order and religions used that for centuries to control people.

Saying stuff like “after exercising free will” that’s indicating a linear timeline. How do you know God lives in a linear reality. That certainly wouldn’t align with the concept of eternity or infinite.

It also doesn’t make sense in the realm of eternity to base a forever on a single solitary life experience with such a diversity of circumstances.

Your explanation makes sense on an institutional level with the agenda of teaching morals, discipline, accountability and keeping social order.

On a deeper spiritual level accepting the things we know we don’t know, it isn’t convincing to me

The problem with that perception is that it’s not looking at the whole picture. It’s a convenient way of dismissing religion without actually examining religion. By any objective measure religion has been a force for good. According to Darwin, there are two components to natural selection; functional advantage and transferring functional advantage to the next generation. If religious beliefs and practices offered no functional advantage for living, then religion and religious practices would have died out long ago.

 

[Slade3200]

Speaking of that… a lot of people have a hard time reconciling how there can be suffering if God is all powerful and good.

It’s important to remember that logically it must be that God's power is not put forward to get certain things done, but to get them done in a certain way, and with certain results in the lives of those who do them.

Why does God have to represent this purity and love and perfection? Why can’t God be flawed or greedy or inflict pain? He obviously has an ego right? If he created life with the purpose of finding faith and worshiping him.

 

[ding]

Why does God have to represent this purity and love and perfection? Why can’t God be flawed or greedy or inflict pain? He obviously has an ego right? If he created life with the purpose of finding faith and worshiping him.

The answer for me is how I perceive God. I don’t perceive God as a “thing”. I perceive God as an action. Verb versus a noun.

I’d say more but I don’t want to bias you before you tell me how you would perceive God if you we’re arguing God’s existence.

How do you perceive God?

 

[Slade3200]

The problem with that perception is that it’s not looking at the whole picture. It’s a convenient way of dismissing religion without actually examining religion. By any objective measure religion has been a force for good. According to Darwin, there are two components to natural selection; functional advantage and transferring functional advantage to the next generation. If religious beliefs and practices offered no functional advantage for living, then religion and religious practices would have died out long ago.

I think elements of religion are good and useful. Moral teachings and building community being the obvious beneficial elements. But the power and institutional elements have also been responsible for some extremely ugly things, wars, bloodshed, divisions, rape etc.

Makes me wonder if there would have been a better way to promote the positive and avoid the negatives

 

[Slade3200]

I’d say more but I don’t want to bias you before you tell me how you would perceive God if you we’re arguing God’s existence.

How do you perceive God?

I perceive God as a higher power / the unknown. I can believe that with confidence. The other portrayals I hear seem man made to me. But I do enjoy learning what other people believe.

 

[ding]

Why does God have to represent this purity and love and perfection? Why can’t God be flawed or greedy or inflict pain? He obviously has an ego right? If he created life with the purpose of finding faith and worshiping him.

I don’t think you and I are starting from the same meaning of faith and worship. My understanding of faith and worship are probably more advanced than yours because i had to make the case for them to be objective.

Even though I could talk for pages on faith and worship I can summarize my beliefs with this… faith is having complete trust in something or someone. I never put complete trust in something or someone without good reason. I have faith that good comes from bad which gives me peace through the storm.

Worship comes from the word worthy. I worship God to show God I am worthy of the incredible gift he has given me. We have all won the cosmic lottery. How do you show you are worthy? By showing you are appreciative. How do you show you are appreciative? By using the gift you were given. How do you do that? By using your talents which is coincidentally the thing that makes us the happiest. Creating like the original creator did.

 

[BreezeWood]

As a kind of side note: I got briefly interested yesterday in the notion of a war in heaven. So I did a little digging.

The Biblical references do not describe the use of weapons or any killing. It apparently did involve (according to the words in the Bible) the tossing down to Hell of those who transgressed the laws of God (amounting to doubting Him or casting aspersions about Him).

I suspect that the use of the word “war”is therefore inaccurate.

It also involved a dragon.

Revelation 12:7​

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”

King James Version (KJV)

the dragon ...

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

seems there was an alliance including other co-conspirators than just who ended up on earth ... as well, the desert narrative sheds poorly for the heavens that would send their problems to earth than solve them on their own territory themselves.

why reading that book is a hopeless encounter without merit.

 

[Slade3200]

I don’t think you and I are starting from the same meaning of faith and worship. My understanding of faith and worship are probably more advanced than yours because i had to make the case for them to be objective.

Even though I could talk for pages on faith and worship I can summarize my beliefs with this… faith is having complete trust in something or someone. I never put complete trust in something or someone without good reason. I have faith that good comes from bad which gives me peace through the storm.

Worship comes from the word worthy. I worship God to show God I am worthy of the incredible gift he has given me. We have all won the cosmic lottery. How do you show you are worthy? By showing you are appreciative. How do you show you are appreciative? By using the gift you were given. How do you do that? By using your talents which is coincidentally the thing that makes us the happiest. Creating like the original creator did.

Those are good philosophies. But what of my question about God being good and pure. Why? Why can’t he also be bad and flawed?

 

[ding]

On a deeper spiritual level accepting the things we know we don’t know, it isn’t convincing to me

Conceptualization is probably the start of the beginning of the journey. I don’t know how effective spiritualization can be if there isn’t a fundamental belief that creation exists to produce beings that know and create for a purpose.

 

[Slade3200]

Conceptualization is probably the start of the beginning of the journey. I don’t know how effective spiritualization can be if there isn’t a fundamental belief that creation exists to produce beings that know and create for a purpose.

Well it’s obvious that creation exists. Whether there was a purpose to creating beings with purpose… that’s just something that we create narratives around and choose to believe them or not. That’s where religions come from.

 

[ding]

I think elements of religion are good and useful. Moral teachings and building community being the obvious beneficial elements. But the power and institutional elements have also been responsible for some extremely ugly things, wars, bloodshed, divisions, rape etc.

Makes me wonder if there would have been a better way to promote the positive and avoid the negatives

Maimonides - who I like a lot - touches on this. He said men overstate the evil and understate the good. And the evil they overstate is done by men and attributed to God.

Many times I see people blame God and religion for the flaws of men. Men are at the root cause. Not religion, not God. God merely creates existence and all existence is good. Religion is a tool. And like all tools it can be used for good or evil.