The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities...

[Kondor3]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

 

[Daniyel]

That is who is responsible for their current predicament, right? I think it's wonderful that Israel is there in the ME to keep a little bit of sanity amongst the insane and brainwashed over in the middle east. They contribute good things to the world and are good people. I think they should push the palestinians into Egypt and let Egypt deal with them. They are a creation of the Egyptians anyways.

So you support ethnic cleansing even though many of them are indiginous the Palestine?

Ethnic cleansing? No. War? Yes. The act of lobbing bombs into Israel is an act of war that should be taken seriously when you are a country with citizens who matter to you.

Should they hold back? No, they should not. They should hit them with everything they can. Maybe THEN they will stop.

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

So technically every state in the world is involved in ethnic cleansing.

No. Only when you stretch the definition to the point of ridicule.

You right, not every state in the world ,but a big majority, US to Syria I guess.

 

[montelatici]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

It sure is starting to look familiar.

 

[ChrisL]

your definition....there are no Jews in Gaza

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

By Israel.

Are you serious? Do you actually believe that Israel is the one who is a country of genocidal maniacs? Really? You seem like an intelligent person, and I find it stunning that anyone with half a brain would believe this line of crap!!!???

Read more carefully. You're missing the context of what I am saying.

Also - ethnic cleansing is not always genocide.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

If you support forcing the Palestinians out of Palestine - then that is ethnic cleansing.

Well, why don't you accuse Palestine of it then? They WANT ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the region, and they are willing to kill them all too.

 

[ChrisL]

Israeli police evicting Israeli settlers from Gaza after a unilateral withdrawal isn't exactly "ethnic cleansing". Nice try though.

A better example might be the forced expulsion of Jews from certain Arab countries during the formation of Israel.

your definition....there are no Jews in Gaza

ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

 

[montelatici]

your definition....there are no Jews in Gaza

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

Palestine, including Gaza, was inhabited by Muslims and Christians before the Jews invaded from Europe. They gave back nothing.

 

[Hossfly]

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

Palestine, including Gaza, was inhabited by Muslims and Christians before the Jews invaded from Europe. They gave back nothing.

 

[ChrisL]

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

Palestine, including Gaza, was inhabited by Muslims and Christians before the Jews invaded from Europe. They gave back nothing.

They did not "invade" Europe. That would be the Nazis. The Nazis invaded Europe. Get your historical data accurate.

 

[Coyote]

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

Palestine, including Gaza, was inhabited by Muslims and Christians before the Jews invaded from Europe. They gave back nothing.

They did not "invade" Europe. That would be the Nazis. The Nazis invaded Europe. Get your historical data accurate.

Missed key word: "from"

 

[Coyote]

your definition....there are no Jews in Gaza

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

What has that got to do with what I said?

As an aside: Gaza was occupied territory under international law. You can't "give up" something that never belonged to you in the first place.

 

[Coyote]

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

By Israel.

Are you serious? Do you actually believe that Israel is the one who is a country of genocidal maniacs? Really? You seem like an intelligent person, and I find it stunning that anyone with half a brain would believe this line of crap!!!???

Read more carefully. You're missing the context of what I am saying.

Also - ethnic cleansing is not always genocide.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

If you support forcing the Palestinians out of Palestine - then that is ethnic cleansing.

Well, why don't you accuse Palestine of it then? They WANT ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the region, and they are willing to kill them all too.

The Palestinians are guilty of a lot of things but at the moment ethnic cleansing isn't one of them. What they "want" and "rhetoric" isn't action taken.

If you want to get incensed about ethnic cleansing done by others towards Jews - look at what occurred during the establishment of Israel when Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had resided for centuries more more. And ask yourself - was that right? Humane? Ethical? If the answer is "no" then how can you support similar expulsions?

More ethnic cleansing: ISIS - religious minorities, Christians, Azidi's, Muslims without the proper credentials. Recent history - Rwanda, Bosnia...all examples that included genocide. Longer back - Stalin's forced relocations of people to dilute ethnic populations. Lots of examples but right now - the Palestionians aren't.

 

[Jroc]

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

What has that got to do with what I said?

As an aside: Gaza was occupied territory under international law. You can't "give up" something that never belonged to you in the first place.

Yep "was" but it's been ethnically, no Jews ... Now it's terrorist state

 

[Coyote]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Were they forceably expelled by the Palestinians?

How about putting to rest the faux meme about Palestinians being"invented" - the name might be new but the people have been there as long as the Jews.

I already brought up the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries as an example (several times).

Do you support ethnic cleansing?

 

[ChrisL]

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

What has that got to do with what I said?

As an aside: Gaza was occupied territory under international law. You can't "give up" something that never belonged to you in the first place.

Arab-Israeli Conflict History of Palestine Occupied Territories Status of Jerusalem

In May 1967, Egypt’s president Nasser prepared for another attack on Israel. He closed Israel’s only route to the sea and soldiers from all the Arab countries marched to Israel’s border. However, Israel attacked first and surprised its enemies. In a war that lasted only six days , Israel defeated the Arabs and took over some of their land:

• the Golan Heights from Syria
• the West Bank from Jordan
• the Gaza Strip from Egypt.

It also took control of East Jerusalem.

 

[Jroc]

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

By Israel.

Are you serious? Do you actually believe that Israel is the one who is a country of genocidal maniacs? Really? You seem like an intelligent person, and I find it stunning that anyone with half a brain would believe this line of crap!!!???

Read more carefully. You're missing the context of what I am saying.

Also - ethnic cleansing is not always genocide.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

If you support forcing the Palestinians out of Palestine - then that is ethnic cleansing.

Well, why don't you accuse Palestine of it then? They WANT ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the region, and they are willing to kill them all too.

The Palestinians are guilty of a lot of things but at the moment ethnic cleansing isn't one of them. What they "want" and "rhetoric" isn't action taken.

If you want to get incensed about ethnic cleansing done by others towards Jews - look at what occurred during the establishment of Israel when Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had resided for centuries more more. And ask yourself - was that right? Humane? Ethical? If the answer is "no" then how can you support similar expulsions?

More ethnic cleansing: ISIS - religious minorities, Christians, Azidi's, Muslims without the proper credentials. Recent history - Rwanda, Bosnia...all examples that included genocide. Longer back - Stalin's forced relocations of people to dilute ethnic populations. Lots of examples but right now - the Palestionians aren't.

Jews cant live in Gaza they'd be slaughtered without the IDF .So yes they've been ethnically cleansed by the Arabs. They had to be. It was probably a mistake to pull out, but whats done, is done, no Jews

 

[ChrisL]

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

By Israel.

Are you serious? Do you actually believe that Israel is the one who is a country of genocidal maniacs? Really? You seem like an intelligent person, and I find it stunning that anyone with half a brain would believe this line of crap!!!???

Read more carefully. You're missing the context of what I am saying.

Also - ethnic cleansing is not always genocide.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

If you support forcing the Palestinians out of Palestine - then that is ethnic cleansing.

Well, why don't you accuse Palestine of it then? They WANT ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the region, and they are willing to kill them all too.

The Palestinians are guilty of a lot of things but at the moment ethnic cleansing isn't one of them. What they "want" and "rhetoric" isn't action taken.

If you want to get incensed about ethnic cleansing done by others towards Jews - look at what occurred during the establishment of Israel when Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had resided for centuries more more. And ask yourself - was that right? Humane? Ethical? If the answer is "no" then how can you support similar expulsions?

More ethnic cleansing: ISIS - religious minorities, Christians, Azidi's, Muslims without the proper credentials. Recent history - Rwanda, Bosnia...all examples that included genocide. Longer back - Stalin's forced relocations of people to dilute ethnic populations. Lots of examples but right now - the Palestionians aren't.

No they do not. If you think they want peace, you are just fooling yourself. It is quite obvious to anyone with EYES and EARS and a BRAIN that they are not looking for "peace." It's NOT in their vocabulary.

 

[toastman]

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

Palestine, including Gaza, was inhabited by Muslims and Christians before the Jews invaded from Europe. They gave back nothing.

So...if you consider this ethnic cleansing, you are effectively accusing Israel of ethnically cleansing Gaza...

The problem though lies in "intent".

the intent was to remove all the Jews ..Ethnic cleansing

This is SO obvious. I cannot believe that people are arguing that Israel is the one who wants to wipe out an entire people. THAT is just not the case. It is the other way around. What is wrong with people? Are they really SO blind?

If you want to remove an entire ethnic group from a land they have occupied for generations - then that is ethnic cleansing and that is what you claim to support.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip. I'm saying they should take it back. Why shouldn't they?

Palestine, including Gaza, was inhabited by Muslims and Christians before the Jews invaded from Europe. They gave back nothing.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion

Read the first paragraph. An invasion is a military offensive. There was no invasion you brainwashed idiot! Stop using words you don't know.

 

[Coyote]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

I had already brought up the explusion of the Jews from Arab countries. The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities... Page 8 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Pretty much - regardless of you you try to justify it - ethnic cleansing is WRONG. It's destroying innocent people. It's a human rights violation. If you support it then you're in the same league the Serbs cleansing Bosnia, the Arab nations expelling the Jews, Stalin forceably relocating ethnic minorities to Siberia in order to dilute them and a whole range of other delightful figures.

The only way it can be justified is by regarding the group being targeted as "less than".

Edited to add: Places mean something. People are tied to their lands by generations of habitation, culture and family. They aren't pawns to be "relocated" so you can move in a set of new people.

 

[Coyote]

By Israel.

Are you serious? Do you actually believe that Israel is the one who is a country of genocidal maniacs? Really? You seem like an intelligent person, and I find it stunning that anyone with half a brain would believe this line of crap!!!???

Read more carefully. You're missing the context of what I am saying.

Also - ethnic cleansing is not always genocide.

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

If you support forcing the Palestinians out of Palestine - then that is ethnic cleansing.

Well, why don't you accuse Palestine of it then? They WANT ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the region, and they are willing to kill them all too.

The Palestinians are guilty of a lot of things but at the moment ethnic cleansing isn't one of them. What they "want" and "rhetoric" isn't action taken.

If you want to get incensed about ethnic cleansing done by others towards Jews - look at what occurred during the establishment of Israel when Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had resided for centuries more more. And ask yourself - was that right? Humane? Ethical? If the answer is "no" then how can you support similar expulsions?

More ethnic cleansing: ISIS - religious minorities, Christians, Azidi's, Muslims without the proper credentials. Recent history - Rwanda, Bosnia...all examples that included genocide. Longer back - Stalin's forced relocations of people to dilute ethnic populations. Lots of examples but right now - the Palestionians aren't.

No they do not. If you think they want peace, you are just fooling yourself. It is quite obvious to anyone with EYES and EARS and a BRAIN that they are not looking for "peace." It's NOT in their vocabulary.

Do you support ethnic cleansing?

 

[ChrisL]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

I had already brought up the explusion of the Jews from Arab countries. The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities... Page 8 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Pretty much - regardless of you you try to justify it - ethnic cleansing is WRONG. It's destroying innocent people. It's a human rights violation. If you support it then you're in the same league the Serbs cleansing Bosnia, the Arab nations expelling the Jews, Stalin forceably relocating ethnic minorities to Siberia in order to dilute them and a whole range of other delightful figures.

The only way it can be justified is by regarding the group being targeted as "less than".

You are wrong because in the examples you give above, those people were not lobbing bombs into the countries and attacking their citizens.

They are NOT "innocent" people. Their actions are an act of war against Israel. Israel should expel them because they are nothing but trouble, have been and will continue to be. Israel should NOT risk it's citizens safety.