The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities...

[ChrisL]

Were they forceably expelled by the Palestinians?

How about putting to rest the faux meme about Palestinians being"invented" - the name might be new but the people have been there as long as the Jews.

I already brought up the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries as an example (several times).

Do you support ethnic cleansing?

Why do you need to lie so much in order for your propaganda to work?

"Palestinians" are simply Arabs, and Arabs most definitely HAVE indulged in ethnic clensing. Palestinians DID NOT exist as a people with any sort of ethnic identity until this was created as a propaganda tool several decades ago.

They should continue to live in the land in which they were actually born, and if they should ever wish to start behaving like humans,should be able to have a sense of self determination in that land.

...which is not in the state of Israel.

Not true.
----------------
The first Palestine Citizenship Order was enacted by Britain on 24 July 1925; it was the first official enactment that outlined the legal definition of a Palestinian. Its first article defined a Palestinian as a "Turkish subject habitually resident in the territory of Palestine." It defined the territorial criteria for citizenship, and appeared to be nondiscriminatory legislation, which provided granting of citizenship to an applicant, irrespective of their race, religion or language.

History of Palestinian nationality - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Palestine (and Israel) was a uninhabitable wasteland before the Israelis came and made it into what it is today. There were no "peoples" inhabiting that land legally.

 

[ChrisL]

there is such a thing as legitimate resistance. .

You support intentional murder of innocent people as "legitimate resistance"

That says all about you that needs to be said.,

Yet accuses OTHERS of wanting "ethnic cleansing." The only reason Israel would want such a thing is for peaceful purposes, because they know they will never have peace with these people. The reason why the Palestinians want it is because of PURE hate.

 

[ChrisL]

The last massacre of Civilians in Gaza has turned the World against Israel...As usual, the Jewish State (or entity) has turned everyone's stomach with its collective atrocities!

It has overplayed it's hand this time...


Israel-Palestine conflict A turn in western thinking - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
...It is something of a weather vane of the global view of the conflict that when Abbas spoke he received thunderous applause, while Netanyahu addressed a solemn half empty UN chamber...

They haven't played enough. They should bomb the living CRAP out of Palestine and not stop until they get ALL of the troublemakers.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic or religious groups from a given territory with the intent of making it ethnically or religiously homogeneous. The forces applied may be various forms of forced migration (deportation, population transfer), as well as mass murder, and intimidation.

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

I had already brought up the explusion of the Jews from Arab countries. The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities... Page 8 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Pretty much - regardless of you you try to justify it - ethnic cleansing is WRONG. It's destroying innocent people. It's a human rights violation. If you support it then you're in the same league the Serbs cleansing Bosnia, the Arab nations expelling the Jews, Stalin forceably relocating ethnic minorities to Siberia in order to dilute them and a whole range of other delightful figures.

The only way it can be justified is by regarding the group being targeted as "less than".

Edited to add: Places mean something. People are tied to their lands by generations of habitation, culture and family. They aren't pawns to be "relocated" so you can move in a set of new people.

That is true. The old Indian addage that the land does not belong to the people. The people belong to the land is true.
-----------
In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, “the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.”5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
---------------------------

The people belong in that land no matter who rules it. According to this, the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel (including the refugees) are Israeli citizens. It would not be considered immigration for them to return to their homes. It is just their right.

 

[Coyote]

there is such a thing as legitimate resistance. .

You support intentional murder of innocent people as "legitimate resistance"

That says all about you that needs to be said.,

Yet accuses OTHERS of wanting "ethnic cleansing." The only reason Israel would want such a thing is for peaceful purposes, because they know they will never have peace with these people. The reason why the Palestinians want it is because of PURE hate.

You are the one who said the Palestinians should be pushed into Egypt. So I asked you a straightforward question: do you support Ethnic Cleansing?

I have never supported murder of innocent civilians or ethnic cleansing and I challange you to find one quote where I have.

 

[Coyote]

Were they forceably expelled by the Palestinians?

How about putting to rest the faux meme about Palestinians being"invented" - the name might be new but the people have been there as long as the Jews.

I already brought up the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries as an example (several times).

Do you support ethnic cleansing?

Why do you need to lie so much in order for your propaganda to work?

"Palestinians" are simply Arabs, and Arabs most definitely HAVE indulged in ethnic clensing. Palestinians DID NOT exist as a people with any sort of ethnic identity until this was created as a propaganda tool several decades ago.

They should continue to live in the land in which they were actually born, and if they should ever wish to start behaving like humans,should be able to have a sense of self determination in that land.

...which is not in the state of Israel.

Not true.
----------------
The first Palestine Citizenship Order was enacted by Britain on 24 July 1925; it was the first official enactment that outlined the legal definition of a Palestinian. Its first article defined a Palestinian as a "Turkish subject habitually resident in the territory of Palestine." It defined the territorial criteria for citizenship, and appeared to be nondiscriminatory legislation, which provided granting of citizenship to an applicant, irrespective of their race, religion or language.

History of Palestinian nationality - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Palestine (and Israel) was a uninhabitable wasteland before the Israelis came and made it into what it is today. There were no "peoples" inhabiting that land legally.

That's a joke right?

MidEast Web - Population of Palestine
Historic Population of Israel Palestine
http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

 

[Coyote]

I had already brought up the explusion of the Jews from Arab countries. The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities... Page 8 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Pretty much - regardless of you you try to justify it - ethnic cleansing is WRONG. It's destroying innocent people. It's a human rights violation. If you support it then you're in the same league the Serbs cleansing Bosnia, the Arab nations expelling the Jews, Stalin forceably relocating ethnic minorities to Siberia in order to dilute them and a whole range of other delightful figures.

The only way it can be justified is by regarding the group being targeted as "less than".

You are wrong because in the examples you give above, those people were not lobbing bombs into the countries and attacking their citizens.

No. I'm not wrong. They are stateless. Give them a state. Stop trying to "cleanse them" from the areas they traditionally occupy. Once they have a state they will have to behave or be considered a pariah in the international community. Of course if your plan is to cleanse them from all the area that they occupy so you can take their land then that's another point entirely.

They are NOT "innocent" people. Their actions are an act of war against Israel. Israel should expel them because they are nothing but trouble, have been and will continue to be. Israel should NOT risk it's citizens safety.

They're actions might be an act of war but they are also a people under occupation and there is such a thing as legitimate resistance. Just like I can't imagine any nation allowing rockets to be lobbed into it's civilian areas without retaliation neither can I imagine a people living under occupation and just accepting it - "yes masta..you want my olive grove for your "settlers"...sure go right ahead".

Ethnic cleansing is never justifiable.

Israel GAVE them Gaza, and nothing changed. They have actually stated in the past that their goal is NOT for peace but to destroy the Jews!!!

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.” Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: “The people of Syria are Allah’s whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow.” (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

Gaza did not belong to Israel. Israel can not "give" what it does not legally own. Gaza was under Israeli occupation.

Did you purposely ignore the links? Yes, Israel won the Gaza strip in a war. To the victors go the spoils, as it should be.

Not according to international law. Even Israeli High Court referred to Gaza prior to it being turned over to the Palestinians as "Occupied Territories" and continues to call West Bank that.

The Israeli-occupied territories are the territories occupied by Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967 from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. They consist of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; much of the Golan Heights; the Gaza Strip, though Israel disputes this and argues that since the implementation of its disengagement from Gaza in 2005 it no longer occupies the territory; and, until 1982, the Sinai Peninsula. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also referred to as the Palestinian territories or Occupied Palestinian Territory. The Palestinian Authority, the EU,[1] the International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the UN Security Council[4] consider East Jerusalem to be part of the West Bank and occupied by Israel; Israel considers all of Jerusalem to be its capital and sovereign territory.
The International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel’s occupation "an affront to international law."[6] The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".[7] According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than 4 decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law.[8]


Israeli governments have preferred the term "disputed territories" in the case of the West Bank.[9][10]

​

 

[Coyote]

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

I had already brought up the explusion of the Jews from Arab countries. The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities... Page 8 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Pretty much - regardless of you you try to justify it - ethnic cleansing is WRONG. It's destroying innocent people. It's a human rights violation. If you support it then you're in the same league the Serbs cleansing Bosnia, the Arab nations expelling the Jews, Stalin forceably relocating ethnic minorities to Siberia in order to dilute them and a whole range of other delightful figures.

The only way it can be justified is by regarding the group being targeted as "less than".

Edited to add: Places mean something. People are tied to their lands by generations of habitation, culture and family. They aren't pawns to be "relocated" so you can move in a set of new people.

Oh, I agree that it's wrong.

It's just not as wrong as slaughtering the subjects of the discussion.

Helluvan exercise in Moral Relativism, to be sure.

But the way that usually happens is that the current crop of folks determine to take that sin upon their own shoulders so that their own people and descendants can live a better life, without the constant bickering.

Personally, I don't support it, from a moral perspective - it's damned tough to justify and I'm not up to that - but I can see how easily it could happen, in a situation in which there are no other viable options remaining, and it becomes and Us-or-Them kind of political and moral decision.

Frankly, the best option would be for the international community to relocate them peacefully, but that doesn't seem likely either.

So, ultimately, with the Israelis already in Us-or-Them mode, they'll choose 'Us'.

Damned shame, but it's understandable, and, at this late juncture, probably nearly inevitable.

Pos rep

Lol! Why did you "pos rep" him? He doesn't agree with you! Funny!

Because he makes good arguments. I may not agree but I can agree-to-disagree and respect a good post and different view points when they're well presented. Kondor is a good opponent and someone I would enjoy sharing a beer with Sometimes I even change my mind

 

[Coyote]

The Christians and Muslims were living in Palestine. Jews came from Europe and evicted most of them from Palestine. That's just a fact.

I call bullshit on that.

There were indiginous Jews living in Palestine as well.

According to the population data available there is no evidence to show that the Zionist immigration displaced Palestinians: MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.​

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Your liberal tactics are completely transparent. Lol!

Try something else.

Antisemitism is not liberal, though, and neither are the cultural values of those Coyote supports with such blindness and zeal.

In Israel, women are doctors and scientists. For the Palestinians, they are just brood mares for producing armies of those who wish to kill Jews. In Israel, the highest honors go to nobel prize winners, authors and creators. For the Palestinians, the highest honors go to mass murderers. Israel has gay pride parades, and they transpire without incident. The Palestinians torture and murder gay people.

What Coyote follows is NOT liberalism. Not by a long shot. Coyote simply hates Jews, and especially those who have thrived in the state that affords them a sense of self determination.

 

[Kondor3]

You mean like how every last Jew has been clensed from Gaza despite the fact that Jews were living there millenia before the Palestinians were invented or how over 99% of Jews living in Arab lands have been clensed?

Quoting a definition of ethnic clensing is one thing. Apply the term properly is another.

Or along the lines of the en masse expulsions and deportations and pressuring-to-leave of Jews in various Muslim countries, during the 1948-1975 timeframe?

Payback's a bitch, ain't it? Especially when the payback is coming from the descendants of Dhimmis and their Euro-cousins.

There have been a considerable number of large-scale 'ethnic cleansings' undertaken since WWII by countries in good standing on the world stage...

1. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old German province of East Prussia - forced by the Russians and the Poles - in the 1945-1947 timeframe.

2. the cleansing of ethnic Germans from the old Bohemian province of Sudetenland - force by the Russians and the Czechs - in the 1945 - 1947 timeframe.

3. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Hindus from newly-declared Pakistan, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

4. the (partial, large-scale) cleansing of Muslims from newly-independent India, as old British Imperial India split into independent India and Pakistan - in 1947.

5. the large-scale ethnic and religious cleansings undertaken by the Soviet Union (Germans, Cossacks, etc.) in the 1945-1951 timeframe.

6. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of Greeks from Alexandria, Egypt during the 1957-1962 timeframe

7. the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the descendants of Europeans from several African countries during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s.

...and on and on and on... a long list, indeed, since 1945 - most of them illegal, many of them unethical or distasteful, and a few of them more likely a practical necessity.

And, as distasteful (and theoretically illegal) as so-called 'ethnic cleansing' is, being the victim of a forcible expulsion is a damned sight better than being slaughtered in place.

At least a displaced person is still alive at the end of the sequence.

Unlike the fate of the Jews of Israel, according to the founding-charter documents of various Palestinian and related militant organizations, which have promised to drown the Jews in the Mediterranean if they ever get the chance.

Ethnic cleansing, as a deadlock-breaker?

Happens all the time, according to history - even within the realm of Living Memory - and some of it by good friends of ours - countries in good standing on the world stage - and much of that done by the Muslims themselves, to the Jews in the 1948-1975 timeframe.

If there is anything like that going on in Rump Palestine (what few scraps are left of it, anyway), then, it's the logical consequence of decades of Palestinian intransigence, dating back to the long periods of time in which the Israelis were still open to the idea of a viable and sustainable negotiated settlement.

Losers (militarily and politically) do not dictate terms, and the Palestinians could have had a modest country of their own, had they but abandoned the old Right of Return claim and let go of Jerusalem, but the Palestinians foolishly continued to insist upon those terms, and the Israelis gave up on dealing with the Palestinians eventually.

The result: Stalemate - Mexican Standoff - a Gordian Knot.

After years of trying to un-do that Gordian Knot, the Israelis have (finally, and long-overdue) decide to hack through the Knot, much as Alexander is rumored to have done.

That means continuing to squeeze the Palestinians long enough and hard enough so that they get the hint and leave.

I suppose it's possible that there is still time to reverse this course of action and for the Palestinians to eat a long-overdue slice of humble pie and come back to the negotiating table in good faith in a subordinate and inferior position, to see what can still be bargained-for or restored - recognizing Israel's right to exist - dropping claims to Right of Return - and letting go of Jerusalem - but they would do so, hat-in-hand, with the clear understanding that they are the losers, and cannot dictate terms.

Then again, it may simply be too late by now. Too much blood has flowed. Too much distrust and resentment has built up. Too many betrayals and killings have occurred.

It seems clear to outside observers, without a stake in all these proceedings, that Israel is slowly but surely creating a state along the lines of the old 1922 League of Nations partitioning proposal...

...and, as we look at the Palestinians own propaganda maps of shrinking Palestinian-controlled lands...

...it also seems clear that the Jews of Israel are getting much closer to that (personal opinion-based, perceived) goal. Every year, the second map (above) looks more and more like the first. The symmetry between the two - and to the symmetry between the first map and the perceived historical extent of the dual kingdoms of Israel and Judah - and to the symmetry between the first map and the 'hard borders' of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon - is inescapable.

The Arabs of Old Palestine / Transjordan already have their own State.

The Jews are merely pursuing theirs.

And, given the beating the Jews took in the Holocaust, much of the non-Muslim world is willing to let them do so, to some extent or another - doing so as a Penance for allowing the Holocaust to happen, and wanting to give the Jews at least one little sliver of the world that they can call their own - the sliver they once held, centuries ago.

The remaining Arab-Muslim Palestinians of the area are merely in the way of that goal; a goal which seems almost certain to be achieved in the not-too-distant future.

To borrow a line from an old Bill Cosby comedy routine: "Parents aren't interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet."

In connection with the Israel-Palestinian Conflict - beyond the domains of Islam - the world isn't interested in justice, it just wants this to go away.

Given that the Jews have the upper hand - by an order of magnitude - and that Losers do not dictate terms - it would be most efficacious if The World found a way to transplant the losing-side Palestinians elsewhere - given them a piece of the Sinai if Egypt is so willing, or scattering them amongst Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. - and putting an end to this unnecessary decades-long and hopeless resistance to the macro-level plan of giving the Jews a home of their own again.

It's too late now to undo what has already been done, and there are clear Winners and Losers in this struggle.

And, the losers, having lost the coin-toss for first-bats, have to take the field first, in a 'suckers walk'.

The region simply isn't big enough to accommodate both Jews and Muslims any longer, in a situation in which the Jews rule the land.

And, given that the Jews (1) aren't going anywhere and (2) will never allow Palestinian demographics to overwhelm them, there is little left to do but to move the Palestinians elsewhere.

You can label that as ethnic cleansing or expulsion and eviction or whatever-the-hell you like, but, bottom line, it's a "sucker's walk" - with the losers getting out of Dodge, and starting new and far happier lives elsewhere, and with the 'parents' (the rest of the world) getting the 'peace and quiet' that they want as the outcome from all this.

This region and this conflict have occupied a vastly disproportionate amount of the world's attention, and the world, at large, is tired of it, and has been, for decades.

Time to cut the Gordian Knot - time to transplant the Palestinians elsewhere, with the full support and backing of the international community.

I had already brought up the explusion of the Jews from Arab countries. The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities... Page 8 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Pretty much - regardless of you you try to justify it - ethnic cleansing is WRONG. It's destroying innocent people. It's a human rights violation. If you support it then you're in the same league the Serbs cleansing Bosnia, the Arab nations expelling the Jews, Stalin forceably relocating ethnic minorities to Siberia in order to dilute them and a whole range of other delightful figures.

The only way it can be justified is by regarding the group being targeted as "less than".

Edited to add: Places mean something. People are tied to their lands by generations of habitation, culture and family. They aren't pawns to be "relocated" so you can move in a set of new people.

Oh, I agree that it's wrong.

It's just not as wrong as slaughtering the subjects of the discussion.

Helluvan exercise in Moral Relativism, to be sure.

But the way that usually happens is that the current crop of folks determine to take that sin upon their own shoulders so that their own people and descendants can live a better life, without the constant bickering.

Personally, I don't support it, from a moral perspective - it's damned tough to justify and I'm not up to that - but I can see how easily it could happen, in a situation in which there are no other viable options remaining, and it becomes and Us-or-Them kind of political and moral decision.

Frankly, the best option would be for the international community to relocate them peacefully, but that doesn't seem likely either.

So, ultimately, with the Israelis already in Us-or-Them mode, they'll choose 'Us'.

Damned shame, but it's understandable, and, at this late juncture, probably nearly inevitable.

Pos rep

Lol! Why did you "pos rep" him? He doesn't agree with you! Funny!

Probably had something to do with me (1) conceding that ethnic cleansing is usually not a moral thing to do and (2) being honest about ethnic cleansing probably being a necessary evil (from an Israeli perspective) in the case of the Palestinians - and a bit of gratification in observing both (1) and (2) - just my own first guess - but she can speak for herself if chooses.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinians are guilty of a lot of things but at the moment ethnic cleansing isn't one of them. What they "want" and "rhetoric" isn't action taken.

If you want to get incensed about ethnic cleansing done by others towards Jews - look at what occurred during the establishment of Israel when Jews were expelled from Arab nations where they had resided for centuries more more. And ask yourself - was that right? Humane? Ethical? If the answer is "no" then how can you support similar expulsions?

More ethnic cleansing: ISIS - religious minorities, Christians, Azidi's, Muslims without the proper credentials. Recent history - Rwanda, Bosnia...all examples that included genocide. Longer back - Stalin's forced relocations of people to dilute ethnic populations. Lots of examples but right now - the Palestionians aren't.

No they do not. If you think they want peace, you are just fooling yourself. It is quite obvious to anyone with EYES and EARS and a BRAIN that they are not looking for "peace." It's NOT in their vocabulary.

Do you support ethnic cleansing?

Look how you try to use this word as if it's a weapon. Your liberal tactics are completely transparent. Lol! It's like "have you stopped beating your wife?"

FAIL bucket.

Try something else.

Do you support ethnic cleansing? It's a straightforward question.

You know what? Since it is the stated goal of the Hamas Charter to commit genocide, and you seem to support the people who elected MURDERERS who clearly want to kill Jews, then it is YOU who supports genocide.

I don't support Hamas. Nice try though.

But still no answer to my question

 

[Dogmaphobe]

And where did I say I support that? Learn to read Dogma.

Arabs have been terrorizing Jews in the area since decades before Israel was ever a state. The murder of Jews IS their form of resistance, and just because you think you are so very clever in calling this mass murder "legitimate resistance", decent people see right through your bullshit.

Murder is never legitimate. Arabs elected governance promising to eradicate Jews, yet you support them unequivocally.

 

[Coyote]

And where did I say I support that? Learn to read Dogma.

Arabs have been terrorizing Jews in the area since decades before Israel was ever a state. The murder of Jews IS their form of resistance, and just because you think you are so very clever in calling this mass murder "legitimate resistance", decent people see right through your bullshit.

Murder is never legitimate. Arabs elected governance promising to eradicate Jews, yet you support them unequivocally.

And where did I say I support that? Learn to read Dogma.

Arabs have been terrorizing Jews in the area since decades before Israel was ever a state. The murder of Jews IS their form of resistance, and just because you think you are so very clever in calling this mass murder "legitimate resistance", decent people see right through your bullshit.

"Decent" people should learn to read and not insert their own opinions and labels into other people's words.

It's easy to forget that in the formation of Israel groups like Irgun, Sterns etc committed mass murder on Arabs and Brits though bus and market place bombings. Was that "legitimate resistance"?

Murder is never legitimate. Arabs elected governance promising to eradicate Jews, yet you support them unequivocally.

I agree - when school buses are targeted or market places or innocent families muirdered - it's murder. It's not legitimate.

You have no idea what I support because you can't read past the end of your nose. Or maybe you just too lazy and applying labels and insults is easier than thinking.

 

[Coyote]

Your liberal tactics are completely transparent. Lol!

Try something else.

Antisemitism is not liberal, though, and neither are the cultural values of those Coyote supports with such blindness and zeal.

In Israel, women are doctors and scientists. For the Palestinians, they are just brood mares for producing armies of those who wish to kill Jews. In Israel, the highest honors go to nobel prize winners, authors and creators. For the Palestinians, the highest honors go to mass murderers. Israel has gay pride parades, and they transpire without incident. The Palestinians torture and murder gay people.

What Coyote follows is NOT liberalism. Not by a long shot. Coyote simply hates Jews, and especially those who have thrived in the state that affords them a sense of self determination.

Really now? Perhaps you can supply some quotes to back up your claim of rabid "jew hatred" and my supposed "cultural values"?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You have no idea what I support because you can't read past the end of your nose. .

I have read you on other boards for quite some time as well as this one, and while you may think all your dishonest double talk fools people, it doesn't.

You are intelligent enough to indulge in the typical leftist support for something on one hand while denying you are doing so on the other and you are intelligent enough to incorporate all the hackneyed Pallywood talking points in your rhetoric with just the occasional insincere reservation for the very worst of their atrocities so you can try to claim you are somehow balanced on the subject, but I am smart enough to see through the ruse.

 

[Kondor3]

...The people belong in that land no matter who rules it. According to this, the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel (including the refugees) are Israeli citizens. It would not be considered immigration for them to return to their homes. It is just their right.

Right of Return is quite probably off the table for all time, Tinny, damn precedent, and damn the law, damn the opposition, and damn the consequences.

Why?

Because to admit those 66-year refugees back amongst them is to commit National Suicide.

Ain't gonna happen.

Groups of people have been kicked off their land - and perpetually kept from returning - hundreds - thousands - of times throughout history.

This will be one of those times.

The Jews have been murdered in vast numbers within Living Memory, and they have worked and fought too hard to prevent that from ever happening again - they are not suicidal and that is exactly what they would be diagnosed as, should they (collectively) ever be foolish enough to grant that Right of Return.

Theoretically speaking, to illustrate the point:

If you and I fought over a piece of land, and I won, and you and your family fled the field and holed up somewhere else, and then, after swearing to kill me-and-mine, years later, you start clamoring about a Right of Return to the land...

I would know deep in my gut that you will kill me and my family, or remove me from power over the land, and weaken me to the point where you can either kill me or enslave me or expel me, in turn.

What is my motivation for allowing you to Return?

Peace?

Hardly a motivation, considering that you'll behave yourself just long enough to grow strong again, and then move against me and my family.

Before I allow that to happen, I would either (1) relocate you even further away from me, where we no longer face each other directly, or (2) kill you and your family, to get the thing over with, before you can do the same to me and mine.

Right of Return is forcing the Jews to make the ultimate 'Us or Them' choice.

Like most sane people, and nations, I would choose "Us" before I would choose "Them".

A dangerous state of affairs for you, given that it lies within my power to implement the "Us" decision, while you, on the opposite side of the fence, do not have such power.

I suggest you (collectively) not back the Israelis into that particular corner. You will not like (and may not even survive) the result.

What sane person, or nation, in a position of superior military and economic power, is going to surrender such advantage, and admit a viper into its midst, that will eventually regain its strength and bite me and mine?

Right of Return?

That's been off the table since 1967 or even earlier, and it's sure as hell been off the table since Intifada I and II and the Gaza Wars.

If you want the land back, you're going to have to fight for it.

I"m guessing that the Israelis would benefit greatly from you trying to do just that.

You would be destined to lose, and you would give them the excuse they need, to finish you off.

No, Tinny, get real... come back down out of the clouds on that one... Right of Return is a dead dream... snap out of it, face reality, and make alternative arrangements.

 

[Hossfly]

...The people belong in that land no matter who rules it. According to this, the Palestinians who normally lived in the territory that became Israel (including the refugees) are Israeli citizens. It would not be considered immigration for them to return to their homes. It is just their right.

Right of Return is quite probably off the table for all time, Tinny, damn precedent, and damn the law, damn the opposition, and damn the consequences.

Why?

Because to admit those 66-year refugees back amongst them is to commit National Suicide.

Ain't gonna happen.

Groups of people have been kicked off their land - and perpetually kept from returning - hundreds - thousands - of times throughout history.

This will be one of those times.

The Jews have been murdered in vast numbers within Living Memory, and they have worked and fought too hard to prevent that from ever happening again - they are not suicidal and that is exactly what they would be diagnosed as, should they (collectively) ever be foolish enough to grant that Right of Return.

Theoretically speaking, to illustrate the point:

If you and I fought over a piece of land, and I won, and you and your family fled the field and holed up somewhere else, and then, after swearing to kill me-and-mine, years later, you start clamoring about a Right of Return to the land...

I would know deep in my gut that you will kill me and my family, or remove me from power over the land, and weaken me to the point where you can either kill me or enslave me or expel me, in turn.

What is my motivation for allowing you to Return?

Peace?

Hardly a motivation, considering that you'll behave yourself just long enough to grow strong again, and then move against me and my family.

Before I allow that to happen, I would either (1) relocate you even further away from me, where we no longer face each other directly, or (2) kill you and your family, to get the thing over with, before you can do the same to me and mine.

Right of Return is forcing the Jews to make the ultimate 'Us or Them' choice.

What sane person, or nation, in a position of superior military and economic power, is going to surrender such advantage, and admit a viper into its midst, that will eventually regain its strength and bite me and mine?

Right of Return?

That's been off the table since 1967 or even earlier, and it's sure as hell been off the table since Intifada I and II and the Gaza Wars.

If you want the land back, you're going to have to fight for it.

I"m guessing that the Israelis would benefit greatly from you trying to do just that.

You would be destined to lose, and you would give them the excuse they need, to finish you off.

No, Tinny, get real... come back down out of the clouds on that one... Right of Return is a dead dream... snap out of it, face reality, and make alternative arrangements.

Tinmore can't make it past 1947.

 

[montelatici]

The Christians and Muslims were living in Palestine. Jews came from Europe and evicted most of them from Palestine. That's just a fact.

I call bullshit on that.

There were indiginous Jews living in Palestine as well.

According to the population data available there is no evidence to show that the Zionist immigration displaced Palestinians: MidEast Web - Population of Palestine

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.​

Of course it did. Once the British were gone the Zionists implemented Plan Dalet and expelled the non-Jews. The British prevented the ethnic cleansing that's the only reason the non-Jews were not expelled sooner.

There were hardly any Jews in Palestine prior to 1850.

AN INTERIM REPORT ON THE CIVIL ADMINISTRATION OF PALESTINE, during the period 1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921. - ​

"The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews."

- See more at: Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations Balfour Declaration text 30 July 1921

The non-Jewish population increased mostly naturally, not through immigration as is confirmed by the Mandatory in another Interim Report.

6. The estimated total population has increased in the 15 years from 1922 to the middle of 1937, by 631,272 persons. The increase is due to immigration and to the excess of births over deaths, the allocation of the total increases between these two factors being estimated to be as follows:--

	All religions.	Moslems.	Jews.	Christians.	Others.
Total increase of population Increase by migration Natural increase	631,272 281,339 349,933	286,770 25,168 261,602	302,294 245,433 56,861	38,305 10,414 27,891	3,903 324 3,579

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

- See more at: Mandate for Palestine - Report of the Mandatory to the LoN 31 December 1937

 

[Kondor3]

...Tinmore can't make it past 1947.

Yeah, that seems to be the case.

If true, then that makes him the perfect Stateside advocate for the Palestinians, who suffer from the same drastic shortcoming.

Any five year old can play the petulant, stubborn victim.

It takes a grown-up to move past the history and to negotiate for whatever might still be possible and sustainable under the present circumstances.

Such petulance and intransigence is not exactly the mark of high-order functioning.

I'm not positive that we can lay that charge against Tinny's feet (although he seems to be in contention for such a prize), but a blind man can see that the charge is entirely appropriate, when laid at the feet of the Palestinians.