Theological determinism vs free will

[daws101]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

 

[BreezeWood]

one's Spirit is their own.

.

 

[loa]

Well, there is enough idea in your paragraph for a grand theological debate! Also? I know more than a few atheists who include themselves in the idea of not believing a person has free will.

I tend to fall on the free will side of the argument and this weekend, if I have enough free time, will come back say way I see it that way.

K.

 

[dblack]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

 

[daws101]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

true the prefix pre means before so the word predetermined' translates to: before it was determined.
which begs the question: what the hell is pre boarding?

 

[daws101]

one's Spirit is their own.

.

then this :"Theological determinism" is an erroneous concept, if it is, then religion is also erroneous.

 

[speck]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

If no free will then we would not be judged.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

Despite the delusions of freaky physicists, time is not a dimension and has no extension. Even God can't see the future, because the future doesn't exist.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Well, there is enough idea in your paragraph for a grand theological debate! Also? I know more than a few atheists who include themselves in the idea of not believing a person has free will.

I tend to fall on the free will side of the argument and this weekend, if I have enough free time, will come back say way I see it that way.

K.

I choose not to believe in free will. Or, I am free but only because someone is forcing me to be free. I can't figure out which, please come back quickly so you can tell me what I really think. I'll take your word for it. Then again, maybe I won't.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

true the prefix pre means before so the word predetermined' translates to: before it was determined.
which begs the question: what the hell is pre boarding?

That's not what "begging the question" means. You'll never have a free mind if you copy the ignorant and dysfunctional English of your media role models for language. Begging the question is a statement like, "God wouldn't let us believe in Him if He didn't exist." Or Marbury v. Madison, but it has been pre-determined that we can't talk about that.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

If no free will then we would not be judged.

Who wants to be judged? I want to get off the hook. But I have been forced to make that statement; it's not my fault that I feel that way.

 

[BreezeWood]

one's Spirit is their own.

.

then this :"Theological determinism" is an erroneous concept, if it is, then religion is also erroneous.

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience.

Theological determinism" is an erroneous concept ...

as you (Wikipedia) have defined it, yes it is an erroneous concept ... or even that any "such" determinism would be taken seriously for an established religion.


Theological determinism is simply that an established standard exists per a life's imortality.

 

[daws101]

one's Spirit is their own.

.

then this :"Theological determinism" is an erroneous concept, if it is, then religion is also erroneous.

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience.

Theological determinism" is an erroneous concept ...

as you (Wikipedia) have defined it, yes it is an erroneous concept ... or even that any "such" determinism would be taken seriously for an established religion.


Theological determinism is simply that an established standard exists per a life's imortality.

thank you for the only non dumbass answer in this thread so far.

 

[Moonglow]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

existentialistic subjugation is the name of the game with Jesus, Moses and Mohammed. .

 

[daws101]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

existentialistic subjugation is the name of the game with Jesus, Moses and Mohammed. .

A little contradictory isn't it ?
but then again the whole subject is contradictory

 

[dblack]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

true the prefix pre means before so the word predetermined' translates to: before it was determined.
which begs the question: what the hell is pre boarding?

That's not what "begging the question" means. You'll never have a free mind if you copy the ignorant and dysfunctional English of your media role models for language. Begging the question is a statement like, "God wouldn't let us believe in Him if He didn't exist." Or Marbury v. Madison, but it has been pre-determined that we can't talk about that.

Outside academic circles, "begging the question" is a commonly used to mean "raises the question". It fair to point out that's not the same as the classic logical fallacy that the term originally applied to - but language is like that. It changes over time, often due to sloppy understanding. But it is what it is. I think it's clear what it meant in this case.

It was also just a joke. Settle down.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

The debate about free will is older than most religions, and is more about philosophy than religion. Of the three religions you mentioned, Islam is the only one that comes squarely down with a clear answer on the question, Judaism and Christianity are both much more likely to produce the belief that people have free will.

By the way, many scientists believe that free will is an illusions because our thought processes are based on chemical reactions. The basis of this argument is that free will violates causality because we would have to be able to go back and change the order of the various reactions involved in making a decision in order to reach the one we want.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

I don't think it is incoherent at all. The problem comes when people try to shoehorn free will causality from the back end. If we just look at free will as a cause, instead of a result, everything works.

 

[dblack]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

I don't think it is incoherent at all. The problem comes when people try to shoehorn free will causality from the back end. If we just look at free will as a cause, instead of a result, everything works.

So, are you contending that free will operates independent of causality? If so, what does that mean? How are thoughts and decisions valuable if they aren't the product of previous brain states? How would that be different than 'random'? The concept seems incoherent to me for exactly that reason. The way most people describe free will produces decisions and choices without rhyme or reason. That hardly seems like a 'free will' worth defending.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Free will, as it is most often described, is an incoherent concept. The key to unraveling it is in understanding that 'determined' and 'predetermined' aren't the same notions.

I don't think it is incoherent at all. The problem comes when people try to shoehorn free will causality from the back end. If we just look at free will as a cause, instead of a result, everything works.

So, are you contending that free will operates independent of causality? If so, what does that mean? How are thoughts and decisions valuable if they aren't the product of previous brain states? How would that be different than 'random'? The concept seems incoherent to me for exactly that reason. The way most people describe free will produces decisions and choices without rhyme or reason. That hardly seems like a 'free will' worth defending.

No, I am saying that free will is a cause.

The fact that science cannot currently explain how people make decisions does not change the self evident fact that we make decisions. The only rational explanation for the existence of human society is that we chose to build it in order to survive. It takes far grater disconnect to believe that nothing we do is the result of free will, and that we built cities and the internet because we were programmed to, than it does to believe that people are capable of making choices that benefit others.