Theological determinism vs free will

[dblack]

I don't think it is incoherent at all. The problem comes when people try to shoehorn free will causality from the back end. If we just look at free will as a cause, instead of a result, everything works.

So, are you contending that free will operates independent of causality? If so, what does that mean? How are thoughts and decisions valuable if they aren't the product of previous brain states? How would that be different than 'random'? The concept seems incoherent to me for exactly that reason. The way most people describe free will produces decisions and choices without rhyme or reason. That hardly seems like a 'free will' worth defending.

No, I am saying that free will is a cause.

Yet is, itself, without cause? Again, what does that even mean? If our thoughts and decisions aren't based on our memories and experiences, what are they based on? Anything at all? Pure random whim?

The fact that science cannot currently explain how people make decisions does not change the self evident fact that we make decisions.

Who says science cannot explain how we make decisions? It's evident that the brain is, in fact, a thinking machine. It's activities can be observed, both at the micro and macro levels, as people think and react. On the other hand, there's exactly no evidence that something other than the physical mechanics of the brain is the 'cause' of our thoughts. It's nothing more than an intuition, and misguided intuition, in my estimation.

To be clear, I'm not saying there's no such thing as free will - but I am saying it's a mistake to believe that free will exists independent of causation. We are the end result of the causes that create us, but that doesn't contradict our role as deciding creatures.

 

[MHunterB]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

I think that there is no legitimate support for that concept in Judaism - in fact, I'd argue that it is NOT a Jewish concept. As evidence, very early on in Genesis, YHV Himself informs Cain "Sin crouches at the door, but you can overcome it"....support for 'free will' .

Similarly, the over-used 'sins of the fathers visited upon the children' verse is understood in Judaism to refer to 'sins of the fathers' along the lines of child abuse, alcoholism, and the like - that what we do, can have far-reaching effects on others.

If you'll pardon me for departorm your original topic for just a bit: I think the inclusion of Judaism above was due to a common error - assuming that aspects of Christianity or Islam or both, 'must' be shared by Judaism as well.

It seems intuitive and logical. But as I think I've begun to show - it's really not. Judaism existed and developed for 1500 years before Jesus was born, over 2100 years before Mohammed. And while both of those religions value the Torah - each of them re-interprets the words of Torah in ways that Judaism never would.

Please note: I don't imagine there's any malice involved. It's simply a function of ignorance and numbers: Judaism is the faith of only 14 million people today, and large numbers of Christians and Muslims have never met a single Jew. So how would any of them have the chance to learn other than what they've been taught ?

I do NOT want to derail the discussion, so getting back on topic: I do not believe in such determinism. I believe we have free will.

 

[Moonglow]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

existentialistic subjugation is the name of the game with Jesus, Moses and Mohammed. .

A little contradictory isn't it ?
but then again the whole subject is contradictory

Yes it is, but some people feel the need to believe.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So, are you contending that free will operates independent of causality? If so, what does that mean? How are thoughts and decisions valuable if they aren't the product of previous brain states? How would that be different than 'random'? The concept seems incoherent to me for exactly that reason. The way most people describe free will produces decisions and choices without rhyme or reason. That hardly seems like a 'free will' worth defending.

No, I am saying that free will is a cause.

Yet is, itself, without cause? Again, what does that even mean? If our thoughts and decisions aren't based on our memories and experiences, what are they based on? Anything at all? Pure random whim?

The fact that science cannot currently explain how people make decisions does not change the self evident fact that we make decisions.

Who says science cannot explain how we make decisions? It's evident that the brain is, in fact, a thinking machine. It's activities can be observed, both at the micro and macro levels, as people think and react. On the other hand, there's exactly no evidence that something other than the physical mechanics of the brain is the 'cause' of our thoughts. It's nothing more than an intuition, and misguided intuition, in my estimation.

To be clear, I'm not saying there's no such thing as free will - but I am saying it's a mistake to believe that free will exists independent of causation. We are the end result of the causes that create us, but that doesn't contradict our role as deciding creatures.

I think you have a misunderstanding of cause and effect. This gets a little complicated here, and is not something I understand perfectly, so I might fail to explain it well enough for you to grasp it.

Without physics nothing else exists, but the laws of physics do not define the field of biology. Nothing in biology can violate the laws of physics, but we need more than just the laws of physics to understand and study biology. The same thing happens with every seperapate field of science.

Each field of science builds upon the foundation laid by the more fundamental sciences, and opens our understanding to more fields of science. free will exists as a combination of science from the quantum level, up through chemistry, biology, neuroscience, psychology, and even sociology, which moves us outside the body completely.

I really need some time to collect all my thoughts on this. It has been a while since I seriously studied everything that goes into making free will a reality, and how it all relates to causality. Most people just want evidence that it exists, not a basic understanding of the science involved.

I promise I will start a thread explaining it all in a few days, I vaguely recall an old article I need to dig up first. In the meantime, lets keep this thread simple.

 

[dblack]

No, I am saying that free will is a cause.

Yet is, itself, without cause? Again, what does that even mean? If our thoughts and decisions aren't based on our memories and experiences, what are they based on? Anything at all? Pure random whim?

The fact that science cannot currently explain how people make decisions does not change the self evident fact that we make decisions.

Who says science cannot explain how we make decisions? It's evident that the brain is, in fact, a thinking machine. It's activities can be observed, both at the micro and macro levels, as people think and react. On the other hand, there's exactly no evidence that something other than the physical mechanics of the brain is the 'cause' of our thoughts. It's nothing more than an intuition, and misguided intuition, in my estimation.

To be clear, I'm not saying there's no such thing as free will - but I am saying it's a mistake to believe that free will exists independent of causation. We are the end result of the causes that create us, but that doesn't contradict our role as deciding creatures.

I think you have a misunderstanding of cause and effect. This gets a little complicated here, and is not something I understand perfectly, so I might fail to explain it well enough for you to grasp it.

Without physics nothing else exists, but the laws of physics do not define the field of biology. Nothing in biology can violate the laws of physics, but we need more than just the laws of physics to understand and study biology. The same thing happens with every seperapate field of science.

Each field of science builds upon the foundation laid by the more fundamental sciences, and opens our understanding to more fields of science. free will exists as a combination of science from the quantum level, up through chemistry, biology, neuroscience, psychology, and even sociology, which moves us outside the body completely.

I really need some time to collect all my thoughts on this. It has been a while since I seriously studied everything that goes into making free will a reality, and how it all relates to causality. Most people just want evidence that it exists, not a basic understanding of the science involved.

I promise I will start a thread explaining it all in a few days, I vaguely recall an old article I need to dig up first. In the meantime, lets keep this thread simple.

For what it's worth, there's a really interesting book on the topic by Daniel Dennett (from which many of the points I'm relaying originate) called Freedom Evolves. Check it out if you have time.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yet is, itself, without cause? Again, what does that even mean? If our thoughts and decisions aren't based on our memories and experiences, what are they based on? Anything at all? Pure random whim?

Who says science cannot explain how we make decisions? It's evident that the brain is, in fact, a thinking machine. It's activities can be observed, both at the micro and macro levels, as people think and react. On the other hand, there's exactly no evidence that something other than the physical mechanics of the brain is the 'cause' of our thoughts. It's nothing more than an intuition, and misguided intuition, in my estimation.

To be clear, I'm not saying there's no such thing as free will - but I am saying it's a mistake to believe that free will exists independent of causation. We are the end result of the causes that create us, but that doesn't contradict our role as deciding creatures.

I think you have a misunderstanding of cause and effect. This gets a little complicated here, and is not something I understand perfectly, so I might fail to explain it well enough for you to grasp it.

Without physics nothing else exists, but the laws of physics do not define the field of biology. Nothing in biology can violate the laws of physics, but we need more than just the laws of physics to understand and study biology. The same thing happens with every seperapate field of science.

Each field of science builds upon the foundation laid by the more fundamental sciences, and opens our understanding to more fields of science. free will exists as a combination of science from the quantum level, up through chemistry, biology, neuroscience, psychology, and even sociology, which moves us outside the body completely.

I really need some time to collect all my thoughts on this. It has been a while since I seriously studied everything that goes into making free will a reality, and how it all relates to causality. Most people just want evidence that it exists, not a basic understanding of the science involved.

I promise I will start a thread explaining it all in a few days, I vaguely recall an old article I need to dig up first. In the meantime, lets keep this thread simple.

For what it's worth, there's a really interesting book on the topic by Daniel Dennett (from which many of the points I'm relaying originate) called Freedom Evolves. Check it out if you have time.

Homework? Seriously?



I will look for it, sounds like it might be interesting.

 

[BreezeWood]

Nothing in biology can violate the laws of physics ...

Oh ... The Garden is calculable - physics generated life.


Philosophy and Physics are the same ... of course.

 

[daws101]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

The debate about free will is older than most religions, and is more about philosophy than religion. Of the three religions you mentioned, Islam is the only one that comes squarely down with a clear answer on the question, Judaism and Christianity are both much more likely to produce the belief that people have free will.

By the way, many scientists believe that free will is an illusions because our thought processes are based on chemical reactions. The basis of this argument is that free will violates causality because we would have to be able to go back and change the order of the various reactions involved in making a decision in order to reach the one we want.

overlooking the the whiner comment.
were's the evidence that proves this"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW- statement true?
AS TO WHAT THE SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IS NOT THE POINT.
the point is ,did a god create free will or it's it a completely biochemical illusion.

 

[daws101]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

I think that there is no legitimate support for that concept in Judaism - in fact, I'd argue that it is NOT a Jewish concept. As evidence, very early on in Genesis, YHV Himself informs Cain "Sin crouches at the door, but you can overcome it"....support for 'free will' .

Similarly, the over-used 'sins of the fathers visited upon the children' verse is understood in Judaism to refer to 'sins of the fathers' along the lines of child abuse, alcoholism, and the like - that what we do, can have far-reaching effects on others.

If you'll pardon me for departorm your original topic for just a bit: I think the inclusion of Judaism above was due to a common error - assuming that aspects of Christianity or Islam or both, 'must' be shared by Judaism as well.

It seems intuitive and logical. But as I think I've begun to show - it's really not. Judaism existed and developed for 1500 years before Jesus was born, over 2100 years before Mohammed. And while both of those religions value the Torah - each of them re-interprets the words of Torah in ways that Judaism never would.

Please note: I don't imagine there's any malice involved. It's simply a function of ignorance and numbers: Judaism is the faith of only 14 million people today, and large numbers of Christians and Muslims have never met a single Jew. So how would any of them have the chance to learn other than what they've been taught ?

I do NOT want to derail the discussion, so getting back on topic: I do not believe in such determinism. I believe we have free will.

so you're ok with the contradiction?

 

[daws101]

[ame=http://youtu.be/m_WRFJwGsbY]Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl - Philospher's Song - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
what do you think?

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

The debate about free will is older than most religions, and is more about philosophy than religion. Of the three religions you mentioned, Islam is the only one that comes squarely down with a clear answer on the question, Judaism and Christianity are both much more likely to produce the belief that people have free will.

By the way, many scientists believe that free will is an illusions because our thought processes are based on chemical reactions. The basis of this argument is that free will violates causality because we would have to be able to go back and change the order of the various reactions involved in making a decision in order to reach the one we want.

overlooking the the whiner comment.
were's the evidence that proves this"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW- statement true?
AS TO WHAT THE SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IS NOT THE POINT.
the point is ,did a god create free will or it's it a completely biochemical illusion.

I need evidence to prove that freewill predates Islam when Aristotle argued for it it in ancient Greece?

Would you also like me to prove that the universe is older than 6000 years?

 

[daws101]

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

The debate about free will is older than most religions, and is more about philosophy than religion. Of the three religions you mentioned, Islam is the only one that comes squarely down with a clear answer on the question, Judaism and Christianity are both much more likely to produce the belief that people have free will.

By the way, many scientists believe that free will is an illusions because our thought processes are based on chemical reactions. The basis of this argument is that free will violates causality because we would have to be able to go back and change the order of the various reactions involved in making a decision in order to reach the one we want.

overlooking the the whiner comment.
were's the evidence that proves this"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW- statement true?
AS TO WHAT THE SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IS NOT THE POINT.
the point is ,did a god create free will or it's it a completely biochemical illusion.

I need evidence to prove that freewill predates Islam when Aristotle argued for it it in ancient Greece?

Would you also like me to prove that the universe is older than 6000 years?

no. you need to prove this statement-"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW-
the Greeks had religion... Hellenism
you might have said the neanderthals but there is evidence they had a religion too.
as to the earth being 6000 years old... even you aren't that nuts!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

overlooking the the whiner comment.
were's the evidence that proves this"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW- statement true?
AS TO WHAT THE SCIENTISTS BELIEVE IS NOT THE POINT.
the point is ,did a god create free will or it's it a completely biochemical illusion.

I need evidence to prove that freewill predates Islam when Aristotle argued for it it in ancient Greece?

Would you also like me to prove that the universe is older than 6000 years?

no. you need to prove this statement-"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW-
the Greeks had religion... Hellenism
you might have said the neanderthals but there is evidence they had a religion too.
as to the earth being 6000 years old... even you aren't that nuts!

Free will is present in most religions in one form or another. The only major exception to that is Islam, which is the only religion to develop after Greek philosophy corrupted religion. Unless you believe that all religions are handed down from on high, that must mean that free will predates the concept of religion. Feel free to take up your disagreement with all the professors of anthropology that study creation myths and the punishment of man's disobedience of the gods, which would be impossible if those religions didn't recognize free will as a concept.

Or, you could keep pretending you know what you are talking about.

 

[daws101]

I need evidence to prove that freewill predates Islam when Aristotle argued for it it in ancient Greece?

Would you also like me to prove that the universe is older than 6000 years?

no. you need to prove this statement-"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW-
the Greeks had religion... Hellenism
you might have said the neanderthals but there is evidence they had a religion too.
as to the earth being 6000 years old... even you aren't that nuts!

Free will is present in most religions in one form or another. The only major exception to that is Islam, which is the only religion to develop after Greek philosophy corrupted religion. Unless you believe that all religions are handed down from on high, that must mean that free will predates the concept of religion. Feel free to take up your disagreement with all the professors of anthropology that study creation myths and the punishment of man's disobedience of the gods, which would be impossible if those religions didn't recognize free will as a concept.

Or, you could keep pretending you know what you are talking about.

you just wish I didn't...
your response is not an answer to the question:
Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
here, I'll dumb it down for you...if you believe that god has a certain destiny in mind for you ,then every action or choice you make is an illusion.
Everything you did or will do was pre planned by god..
IMO the stage of life was set by conditions and events that had no direct intervention or creation by a deity.
existence is what it is and we are improvising our way through it.
improvising in IMO is one of the highest forms of free will.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

no. you need to prove this statement-"The debate about free will is older than most religions,"-QW-
the Greeks had religion... Hellenism
you might have said the neanderthals but there is evidence they had a religion too.
as to the earth being 6000 years old... even you aren't that nuts!

Free will is present in most religions in one form or another. The only major exception to that is Islam, which is the only religion to develop after Greek philosophy corrupted religion. Unless you believe that all religions are handed down from on high, that must mean that free will predates the concept of religion. Feel free to take up your disagreement with all the professors of anthropology that study creation myths and the punishment of man's disobedience of the gods, which would be impossible if those religions didn't recognize free will as a concept.

Or, you could keep pretending you know what you are talking about.

you just wish I didn't...
your response is not an answer to the question:
Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
here, I'll dumb it down for you...if you believe that god has a certain destiny in mind for you ,then every action or choice you make is an illusion.
Everything you did or will do was pre planned by god..
IMO the stage of life was set by conditions and events that had no direct intervention or creation by a deity.
existence is what it is and we are improvising our way through it.
improvising in IMO is one of the highest forms of free will.

Theological determinism only exist in one religion.

Feel free to provide examples of actual Jewish writings that support your contention that it exists in Judaism, it should be easy, unless you are full of shit.

As for Christianity, outside of Calvinism, it doesn't exist. Even in Calvinism, it doesn't mean what you say it means. Calvinists believe in free will, with limits. They hold to the Aristotelian understanding of free will, that people can make choices within the parameters of the natural inclinations, but not outside of them.

Islam is the only major religion that teaches that everything that happens is the will of a deity. Despite that, there is a school of Islam that believes in free will.

Since theological determinism is fully a product of your imagination, at least in relation to two of the three religions you mentioned, you, quite literally, do not know what you are talking about.

 

[daws101]

Free will is present in most religions in one form or another. The only major exception to that is Islam, which is the only religion to develop after Greek philosophy corrupted religion. Unless you believe that all religions are handed down from on high, that must mean that free will predates the concept of religion. Feel free to take up your disagreement with all the professors of anthropology that study creation myths and the punishment of man's disobedience of the gods, which would be impossible if those religions didn't recognize free will as a concept.

Or, you could keep pretending you know what you are talking about.

you just wish I didn't...
your response is not an answer to the question:
Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
here, I'll dumb it down for you...if you believe that god has a certain destiny in mind for you ,then every action or choice you make is an illusion.
Everything you did or will do was pre planned by god..
IMO the stage of life was set by conditions and events that had no direct intervention or creation by a deity.
existence is what it is and we are improvising our way through it.
improvising in IMO is one of the highest forms of free will.

Theological determinism only exist in one religion.

Feel free to provide examples of actual Jewish writings that support your contention that it exists in Judaism, it should be easy, unless you are full of shit.

As for Christianity, outside of Calvinism, it doesn't exist. Even in Calvinism, it doesn't mean what you say it means. Calvinists believe in free will, with limits. They hold to the Aristotelian understanding of free will, that people can make choices within the parameters of the natural inclinations, but not outside of them.

Islam is the only major religion that teaches that everything that happens is the will of a deity. Despite that, there is a school of Islam that believes in free will.

Since theological determinism is fully a product of your imagination, at least in relation to two of the three religions you mentioned, you, quite literally, do not know what you are talking about.

like I thought, no answer..

 

[Quantum Windbag]

you just wish I didn't...
your response is not an answer to the question:
Theological determinism is a form of determinism which states that all events that happen are pre-ordained, or predestined to happen, by a monotheistic deity, or that they are destined to occur given its omniscience. Theological determinism exists in a number of religions, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
if this is true, then free will is an illusion.
here, I'll dumb it down for you...if you believe that god has a certain destiny in mind for you ,then every action or choice you make is an illusion.
Everything you did or will do was pre planned by god..
IMO the stage of life was set by conditions and events that had no direct intervention or creation by a deity.
existence is what it is and we are improvising our way through it.
improvising in IMO is one of the highest forms of free will.

Theological determinism only exist in one religion.

Feel free to provide examples of actual Jewish writings that support your contention that it exists in Judaism, it should be easy, unless you are full of shit.

As for Christianity, outside of Calvinism, it doesn't exist. Even in Calvinism, it doesn't mean what you say it means. Calvinists believe in free will, with limits. They hold to the Aristotelian understanding of free will, that people can make choices within the parameters of the natural inclinations, but not outside of them.

Islam is the only major religion that teaches that everything that happens is the will of a deity. Despite that, there is a school of Islam that believes in free will.

Since theological determinism is fully a product of your imagination, at least in relation to two of the three religions you mentioned, you, quite literally, do not know what you are talking about.

like I thought, no answer..

You want me to answer based on your lack of ability to understand reality?

I can do that, gobbledygook makes thingamajigs go gollywhop.

 

[daws101]

Theological determinism only exist in one religion.

Feel free to provide examples of actual Jewish writings that support your contention that it exists in Judaism, it should be easy, unless you are full of shit.

As for Christianity, outside of Calvinism, it doesn't exist. Even in Calvinism, it doesn't mean what you say it means. Calvinists believe in free will, with limits. They hold to the Aristotelian understanding of free will, that people can make choices within the parameters of the natural inclinations, but not outside of them.

Islam is the only major religion that teaches that everything that happens is the will of a deity. Despite that, there is a school of Islam that believes in free will.

Since theological determinism is fully a product of your imagination, at least in relation to two of the three religions you mentioned, you, quite literally, do not know what you are talking about.

like I thought, no answer..

You want me to answer based on your lack of ability to understand reality?

I can do that, gobbledygook makes thingamajigs go gollywhop.

you haven't yet.

Soft theological determinism claims that humans have free will to choose their actions, holding that God, whilst knowing their actions before they happen, does not affect the outcome. God's providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice

 

[Quantum Windbag]

like I thought, no answer..

You want me to answer based on your lack of ability to understand reality?

I can do that, gobbledygook makes thingamajigs go gollywhop.

you haven't yet.

Soft theological determinism claims that humans have free will to choose their actions, holding that God, whilst knowing their actions before they happen, does not affect the outcome. God's providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice

Changing the definitions of free will and determinism in one fell swoop, and you wonder why I mock you.

 

[daws101]

You want me to answer based on your lack of ability to understand reality?

I can do that, gobbledygook makes thingamajigs go gollywhop.

you haven't yet.

Soft theological determinism claims that humans have free will to choose their actions, holding that God, whilst knowing their actions before they happen, does not affect the outcome. God's providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice

Changing the definitions of free will and determinism in one fell swoop, and you wonder why I mock you.

wrong as always shit head.
what I posted is what most christian sects practice..
it's the second half of the definition.