Thoughts on the CDC hiding their 2.4 million defensive gun use research...

[JakeStarkey]

Although slapped down, the gun nuttery meltdown glumps together once again.

 

[ptbw forever]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh fucking bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same fucking thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

Idiots tend to think facts constitute paranoia.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh fucking bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same fucking thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

Idiots tend to think facts constitute paranoia.

Thank you for explaining yourself, that helps

 

[ptbw forever]

I put out facts, the truth and the reality.....why do you guys always lie?

No you don't - It's all NRA propaganda. When are you going to realize that most of the Progressives in USMB are gun owners?

We simply would like to see a few rational RULES and we don't believe anyone is out to grab 'em.

Stop being afraid - If you want to be buried with your arsenal, it'll still be around when you die.

And when will you realize that most of the gun control advocates not only don’t own guns, but in fact despise them and ultimately fear them?

Do you think David Hogg or his buddies own a gun?

Millennials and younger generations are decidedly against gun ownership. There is no fearmongering going on here.

 

[ptbw forever]

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh fucking bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

And the left wing justices on the court have stated they want to overturn Heller and both hilary and obama have stated they want Australian gun control...... They took the mask off you moron.......they stated they want to ban all semi automatic weapons at the CNN TownHall, and marched with signs saying the same fucking thing at the D.C. rallies....and their pet Supreme Court Justice and their news outlets are calling for repealing the 2nd Amendment...

You are an anti gun useful idiot....

Idiots tend to think facts constitute paranoia.

Thank you for explaining yourself, that helps

The only one that is implying paranoia is you.

Claims of fear-mongering and accusations of paranoia are all you inferior “progressives” have to fool people into believing you are intellectuals.

 

[SavannahMann]

People like to argue that the Kleck studies have been discredited, but not so much. One of the groups that Kleck spoke to was convicts. Prisoners. People in Prison, and they admitted that their target identification process, you know, finding victims for their crimes, included wondering if the victim had a gun. The criminals admitted that if they thought the victim had a gun, they would choose someone else.

That means rapes, robberies, and other crimes did not happen because the victim looked like they might have a gun. Think about that. The victims were not eliminated from consideration by the presence of a gun, confirmed. But only the idea that they MIGHT have one.

Another thing that they did was take Kleck’s survey, and extend it to a larger sample group. Now, that sounds fine. Instead of ten people from Florida, a hundred would be surveyed. But where those people were is part of the survey process. A larger sample is good, but where are those people? For example it would be hard to find someone in New York City, or Chicago, who was a legal gun owner, and who had stopped a crime with a gun. It would be much easier in Atlanta, or St. Louis to find someone.

For many who research issues, getting confirmation for the theory is what matters. For a person who is a firm believer in prayer as part of the healing process, they would interview people who were expected to die, and see if the families or friends prayed, and say that prayer has an effect. If you have no such belief, you would try and interview people who’s children or friends or families died despite the prayers, and thus demonstrate through the survey that prayers have no effect on healing.

You can find the evidence you want, if you start searching for it. Global Warming is one example. You can find studies that show record sea ice, and studies that show record low sea ice. You can find studies that say that the temperatures are skyrocketing, and temperatures are not increasing much at all. You can find the information you want, for the conclusion you expect. It is called conformational bias. It inflicts us all from time to time. We assume that things are as we expect, and when warning signs start showing up, we ignore them, or explain them away, thus insuring that a minor problem becomes a major one.

With firearms, the sides are pretty much drawn up, and neither wants to hear from the other. As for me, I am a firm believer in the RKBA. I’ve written about that before, and won’t repeat myself here. I will only say this. I know that firearms in the hands of people, prevent their victimization. We have seen ample evidence.



That is but one example. I don’t know what those intruders would have done. I don’t know what they intended. I do know that whatever their intentions, no matter how mundane, or vile, they were driven away by a woman with a gun.

I say one example, because it happens a lot. Often according to Kleck who again, spoke to actual burglars in Prison, the house which may have had a gun, is bypassed. The criminals don’t want to be shot any more than anyone else does. They don’t want to die for a few bucks and a little jewelry. Rapists want to have power over their victims, they don’t want their victims punching holes in them.

In this case, a woman with a gun was more than a match for multiple baddies. Assuming that the baddies were not caught, then you have to look at something else. Their selection of their next victim. They will be far more cautious, far more careful to limit the possibility that their next victim is not armed.

Add in some common sense, and you have all the arguments for the RKBA you would want IMO. But we will hear again, and again, how if we just got rid of the tool, then nothing bad will happen. We were told that if we moved Sudafed behind the counter, and limited how much people could buy, we would reduce Crystal Meth. The result, Crystal Meth production has increased 1000% or more according to the DEA.

Finally, this.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Yah, the study has been discredited.

Nothing can bring it back to life.

 

[Coyote]

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

No we are not and no it did not. Complete hysteria.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Dems do not want to ban all guns: there is no evidence of that.

SCOTUS has no intention of overturning the 2dA.

 

[Crepitus]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

 

[JakeStarkey]

They are not.

The number, if it is accurate (imo, it's not) is attributable to the cops pulling guns 275 times every hour.

 

[Crepitus]

They are not.

The number, if it is accurate (imo, it's not) is attributable to the cops pulling guns 275 times every hour.

I don't see that as "defensive gun use".

I suspect that it goes something like this:

Rwnj sees scary looking guy walking down the street.

Walks past scary guy without making eye contact.

Thinks "good thing I had my pistol on me, no telling what might have happened".

Viola! Defensive gun use number one for the day!

 

[Rustic]

Dems do not want to ban all guns: there is no evidence of that.

SCOTUS has no intention of overturning the 2dA.

Yes, they do. They think they need a scary black gun to get their foot in the door

 

[SavannahMann]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

Not if you see where Kleck got the number. One of the biggest survey sample was criminals, convicts. Kleck went to prisons and interviewed the convicts and asked them how often the presence of a gun, perceived, suspected, or actually seen, caused them to change their plans.

For muggers, it was far more often, especially in states where concealed carry was more prevalent. For car hackers, again, it was more prevalent, in the same states.

In Georgia, roughly speaking, one in ten residents are licensed to carry concealed. That means that the criminal has a roughly ten percent chance of coming across someone who is legally allowed to be carrying a gun. One in ten victims is liable to be armed.

Kleck took the discrimination numbers from the criminals, and added it to the people who said they had reached for a gun, and someone had fled. And the times that people actually pulled it, and the people who fired.

We often hear that we should ban guns if it can save just one life. Or we should do some other thing even if it can only save one life. We certainly have done a lot more, for a few people every year haven’t we? Airbags. We had a massive airbag recall because a handful of people had died over several years because of defective airbags.

But what about the other way around? Can we ban guns if those guns save just one life? If as Kleck said that the suspected presence of a gun deterred a rapist from attacking some woman, can we dare ban the guns?

We all know that airbags can kill people. Especially smaller children, or older frail people. The sudden explosive inflation is rather violent. Yet, we do not ban airbags. We don’t even decide to leave it up to the customer, letting him or her decide if he wants one. Because the probability is that the airbag is more likely to save a life, than end it.

If you accept how Kleck got his numbers as reasonably valid, and if rapists decide not to attack a woman even once. Not even all the rapists, but lets say half of the rapists decide to not attack a woman who may have a gun once per year, then haven’t you prevented a rape each time that decision is made?

We tell women to fight back. To use pepper spray, to scream for help, to avoid situations where they are alone, and vulnerable. We’ve had the Rape Whistle, the air horn, and all the other silly shit. But lets be honest, you are going to be in those situations sooner or later this year ladies. You are going to have a situation where you are approaching a car at night, when the lighting is not good. Or when you are approaching your door without being able to scan the area, or are home alone when someone is creeping around outside.

Women go to self defense classes to learn how to fight. Women go to awareness classes to learn how to spot dangerous situations and areas. Men are asked to escort the women from time to time. At least they were when I was younger.

Kleck argued that after talking to those rapists in prison, a goodly number were prevented not by rape whistles, or air horns, or pepper spray. A goodly number were prevented when the rapist looked at the women, or the area, and decided that someone might have a gun, and the Rapist moved on. Perhaps he picked someone else perhaps not.

The same is true of robberies, assaults, and the rest according to Kleck.

But that is an interesting standard isn’t it? Let’s apply it to immunizations. Can you prove that your child is going to be exposed to those diseases? Can you prove that my child is going to be exposed to the diseases? No, of course you can’t. But we know that those diseases exist, and it is possible, so we immunize to prevent the disease. Every year people go out and get the Flu Vaccine. The Flu shows up anyway. The next year, everyone is out getting it again. It might not protect you, and it might only make the flu less severe in your case, or the vaccine might be a bad match. But we still line up and get our shots don’t we?

How many cases of Flu does the vaccine prevent? But it prevents some, so we get them.

So how many rapes, robberies, assaults, and thefts do guns prevent. I don’t know. We know they prevent some. The criminals told us that much through Kleck. Kleck used an extrapolation to come up with a number. Perhaps he’s right. Perhaps he’s wrong, and it only prevents a million a year. But are we comfortable deciding that only the guns that are used to kill someone in self defense are to be counted? How about the homeowner who is seen through the windows walking through her house with a shotgun after hearing a noise and it frightens the criminals away?

I don’t deny that people can and do abuse the weapon. I don’t deny that people abuse pain medications. I don’t want to ban pain meds, and don’t support it. Because there are lots of people who really NEED that medication for severe pain. Is addiction a problem? Yes. Is overdosing a problem? Yes. Is pain a problem? You bet your ass it is.

I am willing to accept extrapolated numbers. We accept them in the number of women who were raped, even though that number is higher than actually reported rapes. I am willing to accept that some women do not come forward to file a report, for any number of reasons. I am willing to accept a lot of extrapolated numbers, including police misconduct. A survey showed that cops were lying in roughly one case out of five every day. The survey was conducted of lawyers and judges. People who deal with the courts every day in other words. Perhaps it is that often, perhaps not. We know it is happening, and we know that every single lie told by cops is not caught. But those who argue that police misconduct is not a real issue only want to admit the convictions as proof of wrongdoing. Convictions, not charges, not complaints.

That is like saying that the only murders that happened are ones where the baddie is convicted. Or like arguing that only the rapes that result in a conviction should be counted. We would never stand for that would we?

So how many times are guns used defensively? I don’t know. I don’t know how many times a day a criminal decides not to rob a man, or woman, because they might be armed. I don’t know how many times a woman isn’t raped because she might have a gun. I don’t know how many times a carjacking doesn’t happen because the owner of the car looks like he might be armed. I don’t know how many times someone pulls their pistol and then doesn’t report it because the baddie flees and they didn’t get a good look and don’t want to deal with the cops so they don’t report it. I don’t even know how many rapes happen every year, no one does, because all of them are not reported. I do believe that the total number is larger than the actual reports. I just don’t know how much larger.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thank you, SavannahMan. Very interesting.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Center for DISEASE Control

Investigating guns......
Not investigating transgender.....

One is a guaranteed right the other is a debilitating mental disorder.

Hmmmm

 

[Crepitus]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

Not if you see where Kleck got the number. One of the biggest survey sample was criminals, convicts. Kleck went to prisons and interviewed the convicts and asked them how often the presence of a gun, perceived, suspected, or actually seen, caused them to change their plans.

For muggers, it was far more often, especially in states where concealed carry was more prevalent. For car hackers, again, it was more prevalent, in the same states.

In Georgia, roughly speaking, one in ten residents are licensed to carry concealed. That means that the criminal has a roughly ten percent chance of coming across someone who is legally allowed to be carrying a gun. One in ten victims is liable to be armed.

Kleck took the discrimination numbers from the criminals, and added it to the people who said they had reached for a gun, and someone had fled. And the times that people actually pulled it, and the people who fired.

We often hear that we should ban guns if it can save just one life. Or we should do some other thing even if it can only save one life. We certainly have done a lot more, for a few people every year haven’t we? Airbags. We had a massive airbag recall because a handful of people had died over several years because of defective airbags.

But what about the other way around? Can we ban guns if those guns save just one life? If as Kleck said that the suspected presence of a gun deterred a rapist from attacking some woman, can we dare ban the guns?

We all know that airbags can kill people. Especially smaller children, or older frail people. The sudden explosive inflation is rather violent. Yet, we do not ban airbags. We don’t even decide to leave it up to the customer, letting him or her decide if he wants one. Because the probability is that the airbag is more likely to save a life, than end it.

If you accept how Kleck got his numbers as reasonably valid, and if rapists decide not to attack a woman even once. Not even all the rapists, but lets say half of the rapists decide to not attack a woman who may have a gun once per year, then haven’t you prevented a rape each time that decision is made?

We tell women to fight back. To use pepper spray, to scream for help, to avoid situations where they are alone, and vulnerable. We’ve had the Rape Whistle, the air horn, and all the other silly shit. But lets be honest, you are going to be in those situations sooner or later this year ladies. You are going to have a situation where you are approaching a car at night, when the lighting is not good. Or when you are approaching your door without being able to scan the area, or are home alone when someone is creeping around outside.

Women go to self defense classes to learn how to fight. Women go to awareness classes to learn how to spot dangerous situations and areas. Men are asked to escort the women from time to time. At least they were when I was younger.

Kleck argued that after talking to those rapists in prison, a goodly number were prevented not by rape whistles, or air horns, or pepper spray. A goodly number were prevented when the rapist looked at the women, or the area, and decided that someone might have a gun, and the Rapist moved on. Perhaps he picked someone else perhaps not.

The same is true of robberies, assaults, and the rest according to Kleck.

But that is an interesting standard isn’t it? Let’s apply it to immunizations. Can you prove that your child is going to be exposed to those diseases? Can you prove that my child is going to be exposed to the diseases? No, of course you can’t. But we know that those diseases exist, and it is possible, so we immunize to prevent the disease. Every year people go out and get the Flu Vaccine. The Flu shows up anyway. The next year, everyone is out getting it again. It might not protect you, and it might only make the flu less severe in your case, or the vaccine might be a bad match. But we still line up and get our shots don’t we?

How many cases of Flu does the vaccine prevent? But it prevents some, so we get them.

So how many rapes, robberies, assaults, and thefts do guns prevent. I don’t know. We know they prevent some. The criminals told us that much through Kleck. Kleck used an extrapolation to come up with a number. Perhaps he’s right. Perhaps he’s wrong, and it only prevents a million a year. But are we comfortable deciding that only the guns that are used to kill someone in self defense are to be counted? How about the homeowner who is seen through the windows walking through her house with a shotgun after hearing a noise and it frightens the criminals away?

I don’t deny that people can and do abuse the weapon. I don’t deny that people abuse pain medications. I don’t want to ban pain meds, and don’t support it. Because there are lots of people who really NEED that medication for severe pain. Is addiction a problem? Yes. Is overdosing a problem? Yes. Is pain a problem? You bet your ass it is.

I am willing to accept extrapolated numbers. We accept them in the number of women who were raped, even though that number is higher than actually reported rapes. I am willing to accept that some women do not come forward to file a report, for any number of reasons. I am willing to accept a lot of extrapolated numbers, including police misconduct. A survey showed that cops were lying in roughly one case out of five every day. The survey was conducted of lawyers and judges. People who deal with the courts every day in other words. Perhaps it is that often, perhaps not. We know it is happening, and we know that every single lie told by cops is not caught. But those who argue that police misconduct is not a real issue only want to admit the convictions as proof of wrongdoing. Convictions, not charges, not complaints.

That is like saying that the only murders that happened are ones where the baddie is convicted. Or like arguing that only the rapes that result in a conviction should be counted. We would never stand for that would we?

So how many times are guns used defensively? I don’t know. I don’t know how many times a day a criminal decides not to rob a man, or woman, because they might be armed. I don’t know how many times a woman isn’t raped because she might have a gun. I don’t know how many times a carjacking doesn’t happen because the owner of the car looks like he might be armed. I don’t know how many times someone pulls their pistol and then doesn’t report it because the baddie flees and they didn’t get a good look and don’t want to deal with the cops so they don’t report it. I don’t even know how many rapes happen every year, no one does, because all of them are not reported. I do believe that the total number is larger than the actual reports. I just don’t know how much larger.

None of which addresses my point. If guns are used defensively 2.4 million times a year where are the bad guys with bullet holes?

 

[Crepitus]

Center for DISEASE Control

Investigating guns......
Not investigating transgender.....

One is a guaranteed right the other is a debilitating mental disorder.

Hmmmm

Interesting thought. Being who you want to be is definitely a right, but I never thought of gun ownership as a mental disorder before.

 

[Crepitus]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

Not if you see where Kleck got the number. One of the biggest survey sample was criminals, convicts. Kleck went to prisons and interviewed the convicts and asked them how often the presence of a gun, perceived, suspected, or actually seen, caused them to change their plans.

For muggers, it was far more often, especially in states where concealed carry was more prevalent. For car hackers, again, it was more prevalent, in the same states.

In Georgia, roughly speaking, one in ten residents are licensed to carry concealed. That means that the criminal has a roughly ten percent chance of coming across someone who is legally allowed to be carrying a gun. One in ten victims is liable to be armed.

Kleck took the discrimination numbers from the criminals, and added it to the people who said they had reached for a gun, and someone had fled. And the times that people actually pulled it, and the people who fired.

We often hear that we should ban guns if it can save just one life. Or we should do some other thing even if it can only save one life. We certainly have done a lot more, for a few people every year haven’t we? Airbags. We had a massive airbag recall because a handful of people had died over several years because of defective airbags.

But what about the other way around? Can we ban guns if those guns save just one life? If as Kleck said that the suspected presence of a gun deterred a rapist from attacking some woman, can we dare ban the guns?

We all know that airbags can kill people. Especially smaller children, or older frail people. The sudden explosive inflation is rather violent. Yet, we do not ban airbags. We don’t even decide to leave it up to the customer, letting him or her decide if he wants one. Because the probability is that the airbag is more likely to save a life, than end it.

If you accept how Kleck got his numbers as reasonably valid, and if rapists decide not to attack a woman even once. Not even all the rapists, but lets say half of the rapists decide to not attack a woman who may have a gun once per year, then haven’t you prevented a rape each time that decision is made?

We tell women to fight back. To use pepper spray, to scream for help, to avoid situations where they are alone, and vulnerable. We’ve had the Rape Whistle, the air horn, and all the other silly shit. But lets be honest, you are going to be in those situations sooner or later this year ladies. You are going to have a situation where you are approaching a car at night, when the lighting is not good. Or when you are approaching your door without being able to scan the area, or are home alone when someone is creeping around outside.

Women go to self defense classes to learn how to fight. Women go to awareness classes to learn how to spot dangerous situations and areas. Men are asked to escort the women from time to time. At least they were when I was younger.

Kleck argued that after talking to those rapists in prison, a goodly number were prevented not by rape whistles, or air horns, or pepper spray. A goodly number were prevented when the rapist looked at the women, or the area, and decided that someone might have a gun, and the Rapist moved on. Perhaps he picked someone else perhaps not.

The same is true of robberies, assaults, and the rest according to Kleck.

But that is an interesting standard isn’t it? Let’s apply it to immunizations. Can you prove that your child is going to be exposed to those diseases? Can you prove that my child is going to be exposed to the diseases? No, of course you can’t. But we know that those diseases exist, and it is possible, so we immunize to prevent the disease. Every year people go out and get the Flu Vaccine. The Flu shows up anyway. The next year, everyone is out getting it again. It might not protect you, and it might only make the flu less severe in your case, or the vaccine might be a bad match. But we still line up and get our shots don’t we?

How many cases of Flu does the vaccine prevent? But it prevents some, so we get them.

So how many rapes, robberies, assaults, and thefts do guns prevent. I don’t know. We know they prevent some. The criminals told us that much through Kleck. Kleck used an extrapolation to come up with a number. Perhaps he’s right. Perhaps he’s wrong, and it only prevents a million a year. But are we comfortable deciding that only the guns that are used to kill someone in self defense are to be counted? How about the homeowner who is seen through the windows walking through her house with a shotgun after hearing a noise and it frightens the criminals away?

I don’t deny that people can and do abuse the weapon. I don’t deny that people abuse pain medications. I don’t want to ban pain meds, and don’t support it. Because there are lots of people who really NEED that medication for severe pain. Is addiction a problem? Yes. Is overdosing a problem? Yes. Is pain a problem? You bet your ass it is.

I am willing to accept extrapolated numbers. We accept them in the number of women who were raped, even though that number is higher than actually reported rapes. I am willing to accept that some women do not come forward to file a report, for any number of reasons. I am willing to accept a lot of extrapolated numbers, including police misconduct. A survey showed that cops were lying in roughly one case out of five every day. The survey was conducted of lawyers and judges. People who deal with the courts every day in other words. Perhaps it is that often, perhaps not. We know it is happening, and we know that every single lie told by cops is not caught. But those who argue that police misconduct is not a real issue only want to admit the convictions as proof of wrongdoing. Convictions, not charges, not complaints.

That is like saying that the only murders that happened are ones where the baddie is convicted. Or like arguing that only the rapes that result in a conviction should be counted. We would never stand for that would we?

So how many times are guns used defensively? I don’t know. I don’t know how many times a day a criminal decides not to rob a man, or woman, because they might be armed. I don’t know how many times a woman isn’t raped because she might have a gun. I don’t know how many times a carjacking doesn’t happen because the owner of the car looks like he might be armed. I don’t know how many times someone pulls their pistol and then doesn’t report it because the baddie flees and they didn’t get a good look and don’t want to deal with the cops so they don’t report it. I don’t even know how many rapes happen every year, no one does, because all of them are not reported. I do believe that the total number is larger than the actual reports. I just don’t know how much larger.

Another point:. Kleck has been thoroughly discredited as a researcher. Flawed methodology and lack of due dilligence are just a couple of the problems found in his papers.

 

[imawhosure]

Wow....anti gunners say Kleck is wrong.....that's a shock...considering that the anti gunners who tried to duplicate Kleck's work,

I am not an anti-gunner you fucking moron.

You spew their crap out of your mouth so you are an anti gunner useful idiot.....

And it is all a stupid, and meaningless debate. We do not need to defend our constitutional right to own arms. If there was not a single DGU we would still have the 2nd and we would still have the right to own guns.

Quoting dubious numbers does nothing for the argument.

You are a stupid person.....we are one Supreme Court Justice away from losing the 2nd Amendment. And as the CNN Town Hall showed, the democrats want to ban all guns....

Oh fucking bullshit. People have been feeding us that lie for my whole life time and it has not happened.

I am going back to this statement made by Golfing Gator, to show that his position is faulty, period.

1. What did we hear when gay rights started? They wanted equal rights, that is all, correct? No marriage, nothing like that. WHAT HAS HAPPENED!

2. How long ago was it, that Hillary, Obama, Biden, and the rest of the Democrats making speeches about illegal alien problems? Are we to believe they ALL had a metamorphysis? Or rather, should we now see that they always WERE for these open borders, but KNEW they could NOT articulate it, or never get elected, AKA LIED!

3. Do we remember about Obamacare? Was there not a push by the Democrats to ASSURE Americans we would NEVER go to Socialized Medicine! Now what are they saying-)

4. Were not Liberals known as the party of civil liberties, free speech, free thought, and free love, lol. That was true as they attacked the establishment through the mid 60s, and early 70s. Remember their marches for their right to speak, and have a voice? (and if you are to young to remember, look it up on youtube)

Well, what has happened now that THEY are in charge? No free speech on campus, if you disagree with them on anything, anywhere, you are an IST of some sort, they try and shut you up. Social media anyone? You are viciously attacked if do not toe the Lefty line.

So when Golfing Gator tells us to "never fear," that means you should worry indeed! They have promised over, and over again that they will not attack your rights, or civil liberties, and that has worked out how? The left has lied about their intent consistently! Just think about Federal intrusion into your live on the day Ronald Reagan left office, and now today, along with your tax rates, even AFTER the Trump tax cuts!

Would you say our country has moved towards what the Left wants as far as intrusion and tax rates, or towards what the most popular President in modern times, Ronald Reagan envisioned?

So, when a leftist tells you this whole mess is the Republicans fault, remember to look at where we were, and where we are now.................and realize which way the country has gone, has it gotten better or worse going in that direction, and why if we want our country back, we must go in the opposite direction!