Toddler finds mother shot dead in Umm al-Fahm

[Coyote]

Anyways, back to the topic of honor killings. I believe in the Koran it says a man can beat his wife. This is a prelude to honor killings. I might have been wrong about honor killings only being about rape. That's what the news report said. But, like I said before, denying that Muslim societies have problems with terror and honor killings, because of being politically correct, will only continue the problems and not solve them.

WHERE IN THE QUORAN DOES IT SAY THAT? We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.

Even if the Torah dies sanction Honor Killings, so what? Is it taught? More importantly, it is done should be the question. This " Christian" married to a Muslim still denies that Islam sanctions it and there are laws on the books that ALLOW MEN TO DO THIS !

Islam no more sanctions honor killing then does Christianity or Judaism.

What laws on what books of what countries?

 

[irosie91]

"you people ecuse or condone every single palestinian deaths."

NOT TRUE AT ALL!

" i have even heard the acts baruch goldstein mitigated by people on this board"

So please bring over a link, or quote a post, if you do not mind! I don't recall any Zionist poster here accepting Goldstein's actions or seeing him as a hero!

Just go to the thresd about the 82 year old woman in Hebron, I was reading a post from irosie about what a kind hesrted man Goldstein was.

She didn't say anything about Goldstein besides the fact that his colleagues mourned his death

sherri lies alot and she seems to have a very limited vocabulary---
"MITIGATING" a crime is not the same as endorsing it I have
never encountered a lawyer who did not know the word "mitigate"

for someone who insists that people who slip into houses
in order to slit the throats of infants ----do not belong in
jail------her comments are truly idiotic For the record---
I stated clearly and I think twice that I never met Goldstein--
and now she decided that I described my impression of his
personality

 

[irosie91]

Idiot lie from sherri >>> (In the name of isa)

""We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.""


sherri----why do you LIE so openly and audaciously about
the Legal system that Jesus of Nazareth fully endorsed and
to which he adhered


There is no endorsement of "honor killings" in Torah law.
Adultery was considered a crime ---but in fact the judaism
of Jesus-----ie PHARISEE Judaism ----- was specifically
very lenient on the issue and no one was executed for it.

Honor killing refers to relatives killing members of their family
for the sake of family "honor"-----not judicial executions.
Homemade executions are not legal in Jewish law ---
and never were. For a lawyer you know so little
about the history of law.

the parable of "cast the first stone"---etc----is very
pharisaical in nature------could even have been something going
around that Hillel said or a commonly voiced adage.
Several of the comments attibuted to Jesus in the
new testament are simply well known adages of the time

 

[toastman]

Idiot lie from sherri-----

We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.


sherri----why do you like so openly and audaciously about
the Legal system that Jesus of Nazareth fully endorsed and
to which he adhered


There is no endorsement of "honor killings" in Torah law.
Adultery was considered a crime ---but in fact the judaism
of Jesus-----ie PHARISEE Judaism ----- was specifically
very lenient on the issue and no one was executed for it.

Honor killing refers to relatives killing members of their family
for the sake of family "honor"-----not judicial executions.
Homemade executions are not legal in Jewish law ---
and never were. For a lawyer you know so little
about the history of law.

the parable of "cast the first stone"---etc----is very
pharisaical in nature------could even be something going
around that Hillel said

Sherri will take every opportunity to slander the Jews, and then claim that she is not a liar , but instead a good Christian woman

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.

 

[irosie91]

Idiot lie from sherri-----

We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.


sherri----why do you lie so openly and audaciously about
the Legal system that Jesus of Nazareth fully endorsed and
to which he adhered


There is no endorsement of "honor killings" in Torah law.
Adultery was considered a crime ---but in fact the judaism
of Jesus-----ie PHARISEE Judaism ----- was specifically
very lenient on the issue and no one was executed for it.

Honor killing refers to relatives killing members of their family
for the sake of family "honor"-----not judicial executions.
Homemade executions are not legal in Jewish law ---
and never were. For a lawyer you know so little
about the history of law.

the parable of "cast the first stone"---etc----is very
pharisaical in nature------could even be something going
around that Hillel said

Sherri will take every opportunity to slander the Jews, and then claim that she is not a liar , but instead a good Christian woman

true----but when did "we" establish that "the torah endorses honor killings"????
I am curious.. how did "we" do that? She seems to "know"
all kinds of things about books she never read.

 

[toastman]

Idiot lie from sherri-----

We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.


sherri----why do you lie so openly and audaciously about
the Legal system that Jesus of Nazareth fully endorsed and
to which he adhered


There is no endorsement of "honor killings" in Torah law.
Adultery was considered a crime ---but in fact the judaism
of Jesus-----ie PHARISEE Judaism ----- was specifically
very lenient on the issue and no one was executed for it.

Honor killing refers to relatives killing members of their family
for the sake of family "honor"-----not judicial executions.
Homemade executions are not legal in Jewish law ---
and never were. For a lawyer you know so little
about the history of law.

the parable of "cast the first stone"---etc----is very
pharisaical in nature------could even be something going
around that Hillel said

Sherri will take every opportunity to slander the Jews, and then claim that she is not a liar , but instead a good Christian woman

true----but when did "we" establish that "the torah endorses honor killings"????
I am curious.. how did "we" do that? She seems to "know"
all kinds of things about books she never read.

I asked her several time to post links on some incidents involving Jewish honor killings.
I'm still waiting

 

[Coyote]

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.

No, you didn't - I suspect that will be overlooked.

 

[Hossfly]

WHERE IN THE Koran DOES IT SAY THAT? We have already established The Torah sanctions honor killings.

I don't think Frau Sherri took ancient history in high school where she would have found out that people were very violent in the olden times and even had child sacrifices. Meanwhile, we are talking about today, Frau Sherri. It seems that your friends are the champions when it comes to honor killings. I do hope that if you find out that one has been committed in your general area that you report this to the authorities.

It seems you are only capable of making baseless claims that always demonize Muslims.

Am I all over the Internet day and night telling baseless lies about Israel and the Jews? As far as honor killings, you will find information about these on the Internet if you would just research it if you can spare a few minutes away from your bashing the Jews and Israel. I still hope that if you become aware of a honor killing by your friends in your area that you alert the authorities to it. I don't think Americans wants to see this part of a culture being brought here to America. Perhaps you were too busy on all your sites to even catch what already has happened here with regard to honor killings.

Afghan woman shot dead by her father in front of mob for 'running away from her husband' | Mail Online

 

[irosie91]

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.

how nice of you. Honor killings are tolerated in islamic law. ---that is----
a defense of murder of a female relative ----based on sexual indiscretion
tends to be accepted in islamic courts ---in islamic lands---its a variable
thing-----of course. Killing a wife caught Inflagrante delicto----has
historically been and in some countries still is a mitigating factor in a charge
of "murder"----- even in the USA---such a killing is usually called
manslaughter------crime of passion.

I have no idea how it works in Iran----but in the country in which my hubby
was born-----you can be sure that it is virtually legal

you should define your terms----what are you actually calling "honor
killing"????

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.

No, you didn't - I suspect that will be overlooked.

I do not claim today any Religion sanctions honor killings. I do no think this was true in the past.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

DinahThis article is about the Biblical character. For other uses, see*Dinah (disambiguation).In the*Hebrew Bible,*Dinah*(Hebrew:*דִּינָה,Modern*Dina*Tiberian*Dînā*; "Judged; vindicated") was the daughter of*Jacob, one of the*patriarchsof the*Israelites, and*Leah, his first wife. The episode of her abduction and violation by aCanaanite*prince, and the subsequent vengeance of her brothers*Simeon*and*Levi, commonly referred to as "The Rape of Dinah", is told inGenesis 34.The http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinah

 

[Coyote]

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.

No, you didn't - I suspect that will be overlooked.

I do not claim today any Religion sanctions honor killings. I do no think this was true in the past.

All three Abrahamic religions share the same roots in a culture where honor killing was probably perfectly acceptable.

Most of the ancient world spun that way.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

No, you didn't - I suspect that will be overlooked.

I do not claim today any Religion sanctions honor killings. I do no think this was true in the past.

All three Abrahamic religions share the same roots in a culture where honor killing was probably perfectly acceptable.

Most of the ancient world spun that way.

I agree.

 

[irosie91]

I do not claim any Religion today sanctions honor killings.

No, you didn't - I suspect that will be overlooked.

I do not claim today any Religion sanctions honor killings. I do no think this was true in the past.

what was not true? you did not even define your use of the term
"honor killing" ------long ago people used to engage in DUELS for
"HONOR" -----the objective was to killl the other guy-----legality
in those cases -----was variable. When you use the term
"RELIGION SANCTIONS" what does it mean? renders it
LEGAL? or just mitigates penalty? or simply says it is
ok in sermons?

you did falsely claim that the "torah" "endorses" "honor killings"----

Are sanction, mitigate and endorse ----all synonymous in your lexicon?

for islamic law----al azhar university ---department of koranic
studies is considered authoritative by the sunnis of the world----
there used to be a website listing its FARTWAHS on law ----but
it was so disgusting that it was removed. One of its top
authorities -----is your hero SHAYKH ABDEL RAHMAN who considered
his bombing of the world trade center in 1993 to be utterly legal ---
in islamic law. He has also called upon muslims of the world
to kill americans if HE dies in prison-----He has a very bad
case of diabetes----its amazing he is still alive-----must be those
jewish prison doctors

I do not recall reading anything about honor killings on that
website---but its been gone for years. It did include
the legality of killing any israeli regardless of age or gender---
a fave of isa-respecters ---- lately al azhar koranic
scholars legalized killing any jew---regardless of age or
gender in the world. -----I do not know if they have
made a statement on killing americans.

 

[irosie91]

I do not claim today any Religion sanctions honor killings. I do no think this was true in the past.

All three Abrahamic religions share the same roots in a culture where honor killing was probably perfectly acceptable.

Most of the ancient world spun that way.

I agree.

what culture was that? in order to understand islam----a useful
thing would be a study of "ancient" (well----1400 years ago
if you wish to call that ancient) culture of arabia. Ancient culture
from which jews derived would be mesopotamia----not arabia. with
sojourn in egypt and ---developement in canaan. ancient christian
culture---is largely from greece and rome. The ancient culture of
arabia is clouded by rejection of all things pre islamic----I have no
doubt that there are or were thousands of manusciprts left by the
jews who lived there pre-islamic that would be a good source of
that history-------maybe some enterprising bedouin hid some away
when Yathrib aka Medina was DUG UP

the statement that "HONOR KILLINGS" (notably without a definition
of honor killings) characterized all cultures of the ancient world
is about as shallow as any statement can be

 

[Coyote]

All three Abrahamic religions share the same roots in a culture where honor killing was probably perfectly acceptable.

Most of the ancient world spun that way.

I agree.

what culture was that?

The indiginous cultures of the Middle East which produced the OT and NT and Koran.

in order to understand islam----a useful
thing would be a study of "ancient" (well----1400 years ago
if you wish to call that ancient) culture of arabia. Ancient culture
from which jews derived would be mesopotamia----not arabia. with
sojourn in egypt and ---developement in canaan. ancient christian
culture---is largely from greece and rome. The ancient culture of
arabia is clouded by rejection of all things pre islamic----I have no
doubt that there are or were thousands of manusciprts left by the
jews who lived there pre-islamic that would be a good source of
that history-------maybe some enterprising bedouin hid some away
when Yathrib aka Medina was DUG UP

They are all essentially the same when it comes to the treatment and regard of women. All of those ancient cultures intermingled in the same area and can not be easily be seperated out distinct. Simply reading the OT and the Koran and looking at the the role of women in the most conservative sects of all 3 religions born of that region is telling.

As far as "rejection" of things pre-Islamic, that seems doubtful since a great deal of learning was preserved by Arab scholars (including pre-Islamic Roman and Greek material) during the so-called Dark Ages.

the statement that "HONOR KILLINGS" (notably without a definition
of honor killings) characterized all cultures of the ancient world
is about as shallow as any statement can be

It's been defined, multiple times in these discussions. I'll help you out be defining it yet again, from the same source (Wiki): Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An honor killing, or honour killing[1] is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts. Honor killings have been labeled as a form of gender apartheid.[2]​

Secondly, I didn't say "honor killing characterized all cultures of the ancient world" - however much of the ancient world - in particular the ME regions - held women in poor regard in terms of rights, power, freedom. In addition, allegience to family/tribe and it's honor was held far higher than individualism in those cultures.

A good look at the ancient history of honor killing, including the many biblical references and instances: Rabbi Michael Leo Samuel » Blog Archive » Honor Killings in Antiquity (2/2)

I would suggest that the only shallowness lies in your own response and your inner need to maintain the fiction that ancient Arabs were uniquely loathsome in the ancient world.

 

[irosie91]

I agree.

what culture was that?

The indiginous cultures of the Middle East which produced the OT and NT and Koran.

in order to understand islam----a useful
thing would be a study of "ancient" (well----1400 years ago
if you wish to call that ancient) culture of arabia. Ancient culture
from which jews derived would be mesopotamia----not arabia. with
sojourn in egypt and ---developement in canaan. ancient christian
culture---is largely from greece and rome. The ancient culture of
arabia is clouded by rejection of all things pre islamic----I have no
doubt that there are or were thousands of manusciprts left by the
jews who lived there pre-islamic that would be a good source of
that history-------maybe some enterprising bedouin hid some away
when Yathrib aka Medina was DUG UP

They are all essentially the same when it comes to the treatment and regard of women. All of those ancient cultures intermingled in the same area and can not be easily be seperated out distinct. Simply reading the OT and the Koran and looking at the the role of women in the most conservative sects of all 3 religions born of that region is telling.

As far as "rejection" of things pre-Islamic, that seems doubtful since a great deal of learning was preserved by Arab scholars (including pre-Islamic Roman and Greek material) during the so-called Dark Ages.

the statement that "HONOR KILLINGS" (notably without a definition
of honor killings) characterized all cultures of the ancient world
is about as shallow as any statement can be

It's been defined, multiple times in these discussions. I'll help you out be defining it yet again, from the same source (Wiki): Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An honor killing, or honour killing[1] is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts. Honor killings have been labeled as a form of gender apartheid.[2]​

Secondly, I didn't say "honor killing characterized all cultures of the ancient world" - however much of the ancient world - in particular the ME regions - held women in poor regard in terms of rights, power, freedom. In addition, allegience to family/tribe and it's honor was held far higher than individualism in those cultures.

A good look at the ancient history of honor killing, including the many biblical references and instances: Rabbi Michael Leo Samuel » Blog Archive » Honor Killings in Antiquity (2/2)

I would suggest that the only shallowness lies in your own response and your inner need to maintain the fiction that ancient Arabs were uniquely loathsome in the ancient world.

wrong again-----I did not even mention the culture of ancient arabia----
for good reason-----As far as I know ----there is very little information on
the actual culture of ancient arabia ----I wish they would dig the place up
and work it out

Your citation is excellent------it fully supports everything I have posted
about the situation-----your problem is you do not know the biblical references
----and do not understand the article ----just as an example----the story
of DINAH-----no question her brothers blamed her for GADDING about
with those guys from shechem (which btw is nablus) and no doubt
her BROTHERS ----simon and levi ----went off to shechem to punch them out--
but ----levi and simon was PUT DOWN for that unwarranted and---barbaric
act by JACOB--(aka israel) in his death bed speech when he names
judah his successor---------you need to read the whole bible---Jacob
virtually calls them stupid thugs (jacob is the important guy)

as to the other examples of bible history-----they are just that-----historic
account---and most pre-date ---LAW You confuse acknowleged
CRIME with custom and more'

you should read the article again----and consider when and in what
context the examples take place

as to EZEKIEL he did not describe law or custom---he described something
he considered HORRIBLE that could happen -----the DURER of his day---

you probably did not understand the SOTAH thing----it refers to a trial
for adultery----in which a woman drinks something----that is supposed
to cause her to drop dead if she is guilty------no one ever died from it---
it was more a conciliation procedure than a trial (and they lived happily
ever after)

 

[Coyote]

what culture was that?

The indiginous cultures of the Middle East which produced the OT and NT and Koran.



They are all essentially the same when it comes to the treatment and regard of women. All of those ancient cultures intermingled in the same area and can not be easily be seperated out distinct. Simply reading the OT and the Koran and looking at the the role of women in the most conservative sects of all 3 religions born of that region is telling.

As far as "rejection" of things pre-Islamic, that seems doubtful since a great deal of learning was preserved by Arab scholars (including pre-Islamic Roman and Greek material) during the so-called Dark Ages.

the statement that "HONOR KILLINGS" (notably without a definition
of honor killings) characterized all cultures of the ancient world
is about as shallow as any statement can be

It's been defined, multiple times in these discussions. I'll help you out be defining it yet again, from the same source (Wiki): Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An honor killing, or honour killing[1] is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community.

The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors: dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts. Honor killings have been labeled as a form of gender apartheid.[2]​

Secondly, I didn't say "honor killing characterized all cultures of the ancient world" - however much of the ancient world - in particular the ME regions - held women in poor regard in terms of rights, power, freedom. In addition, allegience to family/tribe and it's honor was held far higher than individualism in those cultures.

A good look at the ancient history of honor killing, including the many biblical references and instances: Rabbi Michael Leo Samuel » Blog Archive » Honor Killings in Antiquity (2/2)

I would suggest that the only shallowness lies in your own response and your inner need to maintain the fiction that ancient Arabs were uniquely loathsome in the ancient world.

wrong again-----I did not even mention the culture of ancient arabia----
for good reason-----As far as I know ----there is very little information on
the actual culture of ancient arabia ----I wish they would dig the place up
and work it out

Agree

Your citation is excellent------it fully supports everything I have posted
about the situation-----your problem is you do not know the biblical references
----and do not understand the article ----just as an example----the story
of DINAH-----no question her brothers blamed her for GADDING about
with those guys from shechem (which btw is nablus) and no doubt
her BROTHERS ----simon and levi ----went off to shechem to punch them out--
but ----levi and simon was PUT DOWN for that unwarranted and---barbaric
act by JACOB--(aka israel) in his death bed speech when he names
judah his successor---------you need to read the whole bible---Jacob
virtually calls them stupid thugs (jacob is the important guy)

:lol...I like the way you tell the story, certainly more entertaining than the originals....

However, it's not me that is using those as examples of honor killing, it's the author, who is himself a Rabbi. I think he makes a good point and it's an accurate summation of honor killing in antiquity.

as to the other examples of bible history-----they are just that-----historic
account---and most pre-date ---LAW You confuse acknowleged
CRIME with custom and more'

I'm not confusing anything - just pointing out that honor killing has a rich a varied history in the ancient world (or, to put succinctly - it sucked to be a woman in ancient and even not-so-ancient times).

you should read the article again----and consider when and in what
context the examples take place

as to EZEKIEL he did not describe law or custom---he described something
he considered HORRIBLE that could happen -----the DURER of his day---

Context is interesting and yes, it's very very important. The context of much of this is in those eras what we term "honor killing" was perfectly acceptable as were arranged and child marriages, polygamy and genocide. But historical context is often ignored - particularly when picking out individual verses to make a modern point whether it's Koran or Bible.

you probably did not understand the SOTAH thing----it refers to a trial
for adultery----in which a woman drinks something----that is supposed
to cause her to drop dead if she is guilty------no one ever died from it---
it was more a conciliation procedure than a trial (and they lived happily
ever after)

Sotah....is that kind of like the whole dunking the witch thing?

 

[irosie91]

yes---see if the witch floats------but sotah is kinda benign---in
a macabre sort of way------the best part is that no one ever \
died from the drink----but the poor accusing hubby was
shamed forever by everyone and the wife could spend
the rest of her life THROWING IT UP TO HIM .

there may have been a provision preventing him from
divorcing her thereafter. ------stuff that made it unlikely
to be used-----the stakes for both sides were too high---
the better course for all would be-----just forget about it.

an idea cooked up to deal with a social issue---
inexpensively ----in the absence of marriage
counselling. I wish I knew who invented it