Zone1 Trinity and Prayer

[Cougarbear]

The New Covenant is repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Biblical doctrine was following 613 laws and the offering of various sacrifices when one broke those laws. Doctrines changed after Christ's appearance on the scene, and salvation is now open to everyone, not just the Jews. Christ's appearance changed everything for the living, yet your claim is that it changed nothing for the dead when Jesus appeared to them and proclaimed salvation. I don't see how anyone can agree Christ's salvation is open to all here, but that same salvation, proclaimed to the dead in prison, had no effect at all. Why this limitation on Christ's power?

Are you having reading issues again? I never said anything like what you are saying. Where do you get from what I wrote that I said the dead don't get any salvation for Jesus (and others) preaching to the spirits of the dead? I said completely the opposite. And, you say you know about our doctrine concerning the dead. Then you say this nonsense.
Because the spirits both in paradise and hell are being taught more about Christ, salvation and exaltation, their work like baptism still has to be performed. Jesus said unless you are baptized by water and by fire (Holy Ghost) you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I see nothing in the Bible that suggests otherwise. So, that's why we baptize vicariously in our Temples (The House of God) and do the other work necessary according to the Bible and Jesus Christ. A spirit cannot be baptized by water. So, it has to be performed here on earth.

 

[Meriweather]

Are you having reading issues again?

I stopped here and will read this post no further. People who begin with insults clearly have nothing to teach. Try again if you wish, or if you have something worthy of putting into words.

 

[Cougarbear]

I stopped here and will read this post no further. People who begin with insults clearly have nothing to teach. Try again if you wish, or if you have something worthy of putting into words.

I never said anything like what you are saying. Where do you get from what I wrote that I said the dead don't get any salvation for Jesus (and others) preaching to the spirits of the dead? I said completely the opposite. And, you say you know about our doctrine concerning the dead. Then you say this nonsense.
Because the spirits both in paradise and hell are being taught more about Christ, salvation and exaltation, their work like baptism still has to be performed. Jesus said unless you are baptized by water and by fire (Holy Ghost) you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I see nothing in the Bible that suggests otherwise. So, that's why we baptize vicariously in our Temples (The House of God) and do the other work necessary according to the Bible and Jesus Christ. A spirit cannot be baptized by water. So, it has to be performed here on earth.

 

[Meriweather]

I never said anything like what you are saying. Where do you get from what I wrote that I said the dead don't get any salvation for Jesus (and others) preaching to the spirits of the dead? I said completely the opposite. And, you say you know about our doctrine concerning the dead. Then you say this nonsense.

And I never said what you are accusing me of saying. My point is that Jesus, as all humans, suffered death and descended to the dead. At Peter's time, the abode of the dead could be compared to a kind of twilight existence that has neither joy nor strength. Jesus' words of redemption released them from this prison and opened the way of salvation. Therefore, there is no more "spirit prison" anymore than there is a spiritual "human prison" for those on earth. All have been redeemed, and the way of salvation is open to all.

Because the spirits both in paradise and hell are being taught more about Christ, salvation and exaltation, their work like baptism still has to be performed. Jesus said unless you are baptized by water and by fire (Holy Ghost) you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I see nothing in the Bible that suggests otherwise. So, that's why we baptize vicariously in our Temples (The House of God) and do the other work necessary according to the Bible and Jesus Christ. A spirit cannot be baptized by water. So, it has to be performed here on earth.

There is water on earth. In accounts by Zechariah and Luke, there is no water in Hades. I very much doubt Jesus' message to these souls was, "You are redeemed and the way of salvation is open to you...oh, wait a minute...no water here so never mind."

On earth, since water is used for cleansing and for promoting new life, water symbolizes the cleansing of the old and the beginning of new life. No water? It is the words/promises in the Sacrament of Baptism, not the water, that have power. Jesus proclamation that the way of salvation is open to all, now that is power. The rich man, in the Luke's account of Lazarus, still had use of words, so it can be safely said that those who wish to enter the way of salvation can speak these words directly to God, put old ways behind them, and enter into new (spiritual) life.

I do know about the LDS "vicarious baptism" where there is the belief one can put words into the mouths of those who passed on and be baptized in their place. As this practice makes me shudder, let's not go into it.

 

[Cougarbear]

And I never said what you are accusing me of saying. My point is that Jesus, as all humans, suffered death and descended to the dead. At Peter's time, the abode of the dead could be compared to a kind of twilight existence that has neither joy nor strength. Jesus' words of redemption released them from this prison and opened the way of salvation. Therefore, there is no more "spirit prison" anymore than there is a spiritual "human prison" for those on earth. All have been redeemed, and the way of salvation is open to all.

There is water on earth. In accounts by Zechariah and Luke, there is no water in Hades. I very much doubt Jesus' message to these souls was, "You are redeemed and the way of salvation is open to you...oh, wait a minute...no water here so never mind."

On earth, since water is used for cleansing and for promoting new life, water symbolizes the cleansing of the old and the beginning of new life. No water? It is the words/promises in the Sacrament of Baptism, not the water, that have power. Jesus proclamation that the way of salvation is open to all, now that is power. The rich man, in the Luke's account of Lazarus, still had use of words, so it can be safely said that those who wish to enter the way of salvation can speak these words directly to God, put old ways behind them, and enter into new (spiritual) life.

I do know about the LDS "vicarious baptism" where there is the belief one can put words into the mouths of those who passed on and be baptized in their place. As this practice makes me shudder, let's not go into it.

We are going to go into it because your assumption is incorrect. We do not put words into the mouths of the spirits of the dead. They are present for the work that we do. But, they have the right to accept or reject the work as well. But, it has to be done. Jesus died for ours sins but that does not mean people who do not want to be saved are saved. That would be putting words into their mouths and forcing them to be saved.

Let's look at your statement that those spirits who are dead have neither joy or strength. Then, why did he tell the thief that he would be in Paradise with him (joy)? And, I believe Catholics teach that when a person dies, their spirit is in heaven (paradise), hell or purgatory. If in purgatory, then they are there to work out their problems before being transferred to heaven (paradise). So, obviously they are in joy or without joy.

Jesus preached to the spirits in spirit prison so that they would be judged according with those in the flesh who heard and received the words and ordinances like baptism. 1Peter 4:6. I don't know why I have to keep giving you and the JW the same scriptures over and over.
Those words and the same in 1Peter 3:18-21 where baptism is again mentioned and thus required. The law he gave that baptism is a requirement of those who will gain not only salvation, but also eternal life exalted in the highest degree of heaven, was never dismissed after his atonement and resurrection. Now, for just salvation, baptism is not required. But, the end result would be in one of the lesser degrees of glory in heaven as spelled out in 1Corinthians chapter 15:40-41. And this is after Christ's resurrection that Paul revealed from Jesus to himself. Celestial glory requires baptism. The other two kingdoms in heaven do not. Paul was caught up in the 3rd or Celestial kingdom of glory.

After going to spirit prison, there is nothing in the scriptures that says there is no more spirit prison. If there was no more spirit prison, the Catholic concept of pre-resurrection in paradise, hell or purgatory would not exist or be taught. So, that thought is not consistent with your Catechism teachings. What we believe happened when Jesus went to spirit prison, because he no longer would look upon evil is he established a missionary program to go into both paradise and hell to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to let those who did not have the opportunity to know what I'm teaching you to learn and decide for themselves to accept or reject the teachings.

 

[Meriweather]

We are going to go into it because your assumption is incorrect. We do not put words into the mouths of the spirits of the dead. They are present for the work that we do. But, they have the right to accept or reject the work as well. But, it has to be done. Jesus died for ours sins but that does not mean people who do not want to be saved are saved. That would be putting words into their mouths and forcing them to be saved.

The definition of proxy is someone speaks for someone else. No one gave any LDS member permission to speak for them. For example, why not proxy baptize me now instead of waiting until I've passed on? If it is not proper to have me baptized into your church while I'm living, then it is definitely not proper to proxy baptize me when I have passed on.

Let's look at your statement that those spirits who are dead have neither joy or strength. Then, why did he tell the thief that he would be in Paradise with him (joy)? And, I believe Catholics teach that when a person dies, their spirit is in heaven (paradise), hell or purgatory. If in purgatory, then they are there to work out their problems before being transferred to heaven (paradise). So, obviously they are in joy or without joy.

Both could be true. One does not preclude the other.

Jesus preached to the spirits in spirit prison so that they would be judged according with those in the flesh who heard and received the words and ordinances like baptism. 1Peter 4:6. I don't know why I have to keep giving you and the JW the same scriptures over and over.
Those words and the same in 1Peter 3:18-21 where baptism is again mentioned and thus required. The law he gave that baptism is a requirement of those who will gain not only salvation, but also eternal life exalted in the highest degree of heaven, was never dismissed after his atonement and resurrection. Now, for just salvation, baptism is not required. But, the end result would be in one of the lesser degrees of glory in heaven as spelled out in 1Corinthians chapter 15:40-41. And this is after Christ's resurrection that Paul revealed from Jesus to himself. Celestial glory requires baptism. The other two kingdoms in heaven do not. Paul was caught up in the 3rd or Celestial kingdom of glory.

Scripture is for this world. I favor no proof-texting scripture. Taking scripture out of context results in con. In addition LDS understanding of scripture does not go through Jewish Biblical culture or Hebrew/Aramaic etymology. It goes through Joseph Smith and the King James English. You insist that scripture says something it doesn't. Your belief is not the belief of all.

After going to spirit prison, there is nothing in the scriptures that says there is no more spirit prison. If there was no more spirit prison, the Catholic concept of pre-resurrection in paradise, hell or purgatory would not exist or be taught. So, that thought is not consistent with your Catechism teachings. What we believe happened when Jesus went to spirit prison, because he no longer would look upon evil is he established a missionary program to go into both paradise and hell to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to let those who did not have the opportunity to know what I'm teaching you to learn and decide for themselves to accept or reject the teachings.

Then you hold no belief that salvation is open to all, but hold to the perspective spirits are held in prison. Neither hell nor purgatory are prisons. Salvation freed all....or no one. People are free to choose eternity without God (hell) or eternity with God (heaven, sometimes after purification (purgatory).

 

[Cougarbear]

The definition of proxy is someone speaks for someone else. No one gave any LDS member permission to speak for them. For example, why not proxy baptize me now instead of waiting until I've passed on? If it is not proper to have me baptized into your church while I'm living, then it is definitely not proper to proxy baptize me when I have passed on.

Both could be true. One does not preclude the other.

Scripture is for this world. I favor no proof-texting scripture. Taking scripture out of context results in con. In addition LDS understanding of scripture does not go through Jewish Biblical culture or Hebrew/Aramaic etymology. It goes through Joseph Smith and the King James English. You insist that scripture says something it doesn't. Your belief is not the belief of all.

Then you hold no belief that salvation is open to all, but hold to the perspective spirits are held in prison. Neither hell nor purgatory are prisons. Salvation freed all....or no one. People are free to choose eternity without God (hell) or eternity with God (heaven, sometimes after purification (purgatory).

Now it’s you trying to put words in our mouth. I gave you what we do and it’s not putting words in anyone’s mouth. If I’m in front of you teaching you how to do a geometry problem, I’m not putting words into your mouth. I’m teaching you. That’s what we do in our temple ordinances for those who died. The spirits are there listening and learning. If they want to accept the work they have their free agency to do so or not. So stop with your continuance of misrepresenting what we do and what actually goes on.

Your next comment is going against your own Catholic beliefs and teaching. My statement is 100% backed by scripture.

Those scriptures should wake you up that Jesus taught that there’s away for those without opportunities to hear and know the true Gospel of Jesus Christ after they die. It’s a fact of the Bible. 100% fact. You can deny it but it’s there.

And yes, salvation is open to all. Not all will take it. So what? Salvation is not the best. You’ve heard the concept of good, better, best. Salvation is good or Telestial (stars). Salvation with being with only good people that were not valiant with their testimony is better (terrestrial). Exaltation with Eternal Life with the Father and The Son is best (Celestial). The Bible teaches this and I’ve given you these teachings. I can’t help it if your Popes don’t and didn’t teach these things. That’s your problem. Fortunately not mine. The idea that wonderful good and best people are rewarded the same as murderous pedophiles and terrorists is ridiculous. But your Church teaches that. Sad.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Whether we pray one on one in Jesus’ name to God the Father; whether we pray with others here on earth, or whether we ask those who have passed on to join us in prayer, do we recognize the part of the Holy Spirit? Where Jesus and the Father are, by definition, so is the Holy Spirit because the three are one. Our prayers, in Jesus’ name, rise to the Father through the Holy Spirit. It is through the Holy Spirit we are united in the Body of Christ, in Jesus, who is One with the Father.

Today I was thinking I need to be more cognizant of the Holy Spirit and his part in our prayers. I began wondering if he is the most ignored Person in the Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is not a person.

 

[Meriweather]

Now it’s you trying to put words in our mouth. I gave you what we do and it’s not putting words in anyone’s mouth. If I’m in front of you teaching you how to do a geometry problem, I’m not putting words into your mouth. I’m teaching you. That’s what we do in our temple ordinances for those who died. The spirits are there listening and learning. If they want to accept the work they have their free agency to do so or not. So stop with your continuance of misrepresenting what we do and what actually goes on.

Wrong. Look up proxy.

Your next comment is going against your own Catholic beliefs and teaching. My statement is 100% backed by scripture.

Wrong.

Those scriptures should wake you up that Jesus taught that there’s away for those without opportunities to hear and know the true Gospel of Jesus Christ after they die. It’s a fact of the Bible. 100% fact. You can deny it but it’s there.

Your interpretation.

And yes, salvation is open to all. Not all will take it. So what? Salvation is not the best. You’ve heard the concept of good, better, best. Salvation is good or Telestial (stars). Salvation with being with only good people that were not valiant with their testimony is better (terrestrial). Exaltation with Eternal Life with the Father and The Son is best (Celestial). The Bible teaches this and I’ve given you these teachings. I can’t help it if your Popes don’t and didn’t teach these things. That’s your problem. Fortunately not mine. The idea that wonderful good and best people are rewarded the same as murderous pedophiles and terrorists is ridiculous. But your Church teaches that. Sad.

Wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

The Holy Spirit is not a person.

Q: Does scripture describe the Holy Spirit in personal terms or impersonal terms? A: Personal.

The Holy Spirit teaches, guides, comforts and intercedes. He has intellect and will. As such Catholics denote the Holy Spirit as one of the three persons of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Think of it as three beings in the Trinity if that makes better sense to you.

 

[Cougarbear]

Wrong. Look up proxy.

Wrong.

Your interpretation.

Wrong. Look up proxy.

Wrong.

Your interpretation.

Wrong.

Did I use the word “proxy?” No. Read again. I said we do vicarious work for the dead. We stand in for the spirit of the dead because they cannot do so for themselves. I’m trying to explain it for you. Forget what you have heard before because you obviously got it wrong and heard it wrong.

You are going against your own Church teaching. It’s obvious and quite humiliating.

The words are there. It’s plain and simple. I’m 100% correct.

 

[Meriweather]

Did I use the word “proxy?” No. Read again. I said we do vicarious work for the dead. We stand in for the spirit of the dead because they cannot do so for themselves. I’m trying to explain it for you. Forget what you have heard before because you obviously got it wrong and heard it wrong.

You are going against your own Church teaching. It’s obvious and quite humiliating.

The words are there. It’s plain and simple. I’m 100% correct.

What I am going against is your interpretation of Catholic teaching.

 

[Cougarbear]

What I am going against is your interpretation of Catholic teaching.

No, you put a word in my mouth, proxy. When I’m in an Endowment session, I know the person I’m performing the ordinance is present, learning and some accept it others don’t. Some don’t want to be there and the person vicariously there for them gets up and leaves the session. Happens very rarely and hasn’t happened with me personally. That spirit has rejected the Holy Ghost. Happens rarely. Also, those who accept their ordinances happens not that often as well. I’ve witnessed this happen. Most are polite and listen and don’t reject what happens and confess Jesus is the Christ. Their testimony isn’t valiant. So, they will receive Salvation in either the Terrestrial heaven or Telestial heaven. With a valiant testimony the Celestial heaven. I’m not judging any specific person. I simply have more explanation on the points Paul gave us in the New Testament.

I’ll point out one other confusing people have with the Bible and particularly the Apostle Paul. Paul did not change doctrine from the first of his writings to his last. So, when I connect 1Peter with first and second Corinthians, I’m not taking about of context. Paul’s context never changed. Work for the dead is consistent throughout all his writings including the concept of sealing families together, husbands and wives.

 

[Meriweather]

No, you put a word in my mouth, proxy.

I never said that you used the word "proxy". I was speaking of the LDS Church.

Endowment session

Let's take a look at the LDS Endowment site: (LDS Endowment)

BAPTISM

[Baptisms for the dead are performed underground, in the basement of the temple, as a similitude of the grave. Traditionally, the baptismal font rests on the back of twelve oxen, like the molten sea in Solomon's temple.]

[The officiator and the proxy stand together in the water. The officiator raises his right arm to the square and pronounces the following words.]

Brother _________, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you for and in behalf of _________, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

[The officiator then immerses the proxy completely underwater.]

----------

The Catholics in my family who have been proxy baptized would have been horrified, and the Catholics in my family who know this has happened are horrified. We find it both insulting and disrespectful. God respects free will, but apparently the LDS Church has no regard for that. An LDS friend confirmed for me that this is what happens, and these are the words used. LDS has no permission to do any "Ordinance" on my behalf. Period. I hold no belief in the LDS faith or their Ordinances. Therefore, you should have enough respect for your own Church and Ordinances that you wouldn't pull a stunt like baptizing me after I have passed on. But my wishes don't matter in the LDS Church, do they? As my friend told me: "Neener, neener. You'll be baptized anyway."

For the second time, I ask you to drop this. LDS proxy baptisms are a sore subject for me and for my family.

 

[kjw47]

No darkness to expose. What was exposed was that post's ignorance of both scripture and the Bible. It is only when one's own religion/faith is so weak the only post that comes to mind is a post that slanders and denounces another religion/faith.

Even the protestants saw the corruption of Catholicism out of Catholicism's own translating. Some i showed you. I showed what Jesus said that your religion rejects, thus he will reject them.

 

[kjw47]

The words are straight up Jesus preaches to the spirits in spirit prison. What is wrong with you?
1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Can’t be any more clear. I have read your version and the words are still there but poorly written. It still is clear enough that our spirits are still alive in spirit prison. Your prophets are false.

darkness. The dead know nothing.

 

[Meriweather]

Even the protestants saw the corruption of Catholicism out of Catholicism's own translating. Some i showed you. I showed what Jesus said that your religion rejects, thus he will reject them.

Catholic translations go back to the original languages.

Again, those whose purpose is to attack another religion/faith apparently have no strength in their own faith/religion that is worth mentioning.

 

[Cougarbear]

I never said that you used the word "proxy". I was speaking of the LDS Church.

Let's take a look at the LDS Endowment site: (LDS Endowment)

BAPTISM

[Baptisms for the dead are performed underground, in the basement of the temple, as a similitude of the grave. Traditionally, the baptismal font rests on the back of twelve oxen, like the molten sea in Solomon's temple.]

[The officiator and the proxy stand together in the water. The officiator raises his right arm to the square and pronounces the following words.]

Brother _________, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you for and in behalf of _________, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

[The officiator then immerses the proxy completely underwater.]

----------

The Catholics in my family who have been proxy baptized would have been horrified, and the Catholics in my family who know this has happened are horrified. We find it both insulting and disrespectful. God respects free will, but apparently the LDS Church has no regard for that. An LDS friend confirmed for me that this is what happens, and these are the words used. LDS has no permission to do any "Ordinance" on my behalf. Period. I hold no belief in the LDS faith or their Ordinances. Therefore, you should have enough respect for your own Church and Ordinances that you wouldn't pull a stunt like baptizing me after I have passed on. But my wishes don't matter in the LDS Church, do they? As my friend told me: "Neener, neener. You'll be baptized anyway."

For the second time, I ask you to drop this. LDS proxy baptisms are a sore subject for me and for my family.

If the vicarious work for the dead bothers you, then you must believe our work is true. My Jewish family threw the same thing to me and I responded the same way. You must believe it’s true if you think it bothers the dead. Because you don’t, it means your response is insanely emotional without fact, logic and reason.

I find it insanely insensitive towards your dead family. How do you know or not if they accept the Gospel in spirit prison? And they want the work done for them. Who are you to deny them? If you don’t want to be baptized by authority while living in this life, you simply say “no.” But if you don’t believe someone can speak for the spirit of the dead then stop speaking for them.

 

[kjw47]

Catholic translations go back to the original languages.

Again, those whose purpose is to attack another religion/faith apparently have no strength in their own faith/religion that is worth mentioning.

Catholicism translated into the latin vulgate in the 300,s ce, it stayed like that until the 1300,s, no originals remained when it was translated back to the Greek lexicons. Only Catholicism translating remained. Even Jerome before translating the Latin Vulgate told the Catholic leader Gods name belonged in the NT=every spot the OT was quoted and the name is in the OT. Yet they removed Gods name by satans will against Gods will. God willed his name in his bible version over 7000 spots. Only the ones who lack love and respect for Gods will use the altered versions in support of satans will. This is how blind 99% on earth are. Satan does it like this-2Cor 11:12-15

 

[Cougarbear]

darkness. The dead know nothing.

The dead “bodies” don’t know nothing. Duh!
But, since Jesus himself went to the spirits of the dead and preached to them, it’s logically evident the spirits retain all their knowledge. Duh!