Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Coyote]

Which war was that?

What war did the Palestinians lose?

They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel. The plain fact is - Israel is not going away. And for the Palestinians rights and ability to live prosperously and peacefully, that needs to be recognized so something can actually happen to allow the Palestinians to come into their own and define themselves by something other than conflict.

At some point, if you care about the Palestinians AS a people, with rights and a homeland, you need to recognize this and recognize that this is a shared homeland.

So Israel isn't going away. It won't dissolve nor should it. How can the international community help the Palestinians realize a future?

They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel.

Palestine never had an army. They never attacked Israel.

They were not part of the1948 war.

You don't need a standing army to wage war or attack. Witness ISIS and Al Queda (not that I am comparing their actions to the Palestinian) - but the point is attack and defense isn't dependent on the traditional army.

The Palestinians were virtually all unarmed civilians attacked by Israel's military that included WWII military equipment.

The Palis were never attacked; perhaps that’s why there are 6 million of them at the moment.

yes. They were. The conflicts surrounding the end of the mandate included Jewish militias attacking Palestinians just as included Palestinians. But it is a pointless argument that accomplishes nothing today

Abbas' leadership is not very strong and he is not very popular.

I think parts of the Arab world is maturing in the area of world wide geo-politics and economies. I think they realize making peace with Israel is in everyone's best interest. IMO only. But seeing the refugees from the conflicts in Iraq and Syria, the growth of much more sophisticated terrorist ideologies that are destabilizing to themselves. I don't know...

Exactly. But Abbas is likely to be replaced by someone MORE extremist, rather than less. Which leaves us, what? Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, West Bank on the one side and Israel, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Oman on the other and a WHOLE LOT of wishy washy. I'd hope Egypt and Jordan are smart enough well, not to be stupid.

All good questions...

 

[rylah]

And that view is exactly the problem.

Exactly how?
Maybe that's the remedy.

When a land that belongs to multiple peoples who view the land as belonging to only one of them - it creates problems for the other peoples who feel it is their land as well.

Does the land belong to the native population or to foreign settlers?

Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities. They are not "native" to the land or descended from the now-defunct Canaanites. On the other hand, Israelis speak the same language that was spoken 2,000 years ago, as well as use the same currency (proven by archaeology), and celebrate the same national holidays. Most Arabacized names of the cities and towns in Israel and Judea (or the West Bank) come from the Hebrew. So Jews aren't "foreign" to Israel.

Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities.

Israeli bullshit, of course. The Zionists kept economic improvements to themselves.

Yep like drying the swamps and ending Malaria in the land,
new sanitary system in Jerusalem....

Nothing that caused Arabs to multiply 3 fold in record times not seen anywhere in the region.

 

[flacaltenn]

#2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.

Israel, withdrawing their criminally occupying settlers from the occupied West Bank (except in cases of mutually agreed land swaps), would not only be not criminal, it would be enforcing the law. Moreover, without that, there will be no peaceful, lasting agreement.

So you're STILL ignoring the fact that Israel TRIED that approach with the PA when they TOTALLY VACATED GAZA are ya????

That plan can go to the shredder... It's Einstein's definition of insanity... Learn from history...

 

[Shusha]

It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic. So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.

Just for reference can you think of any other country that has had to deal with something like this in terms of borders?

Okay, so I've been using "not a real problem" quite a bit. (Though I think rylah actually said it first). Perhaps I should explain what I mean by that.

"Not a real problem" is code for things that one side or the other uses to shut down negotiations, rather than being either a practical problem which needs to be solved, or being a position which is strongly held by either of the Parties for reasons of national importance.

Contiguity is one such "not a real problem". As long as people can freely travel in their own States and not have to cross international borders to get to work, then its not a real problem. (And its actually an improvement over today's situation). It just needs a work around. The reason it is presented as a "real problem" when it is not is to continue to give credence to the demonizing notion of "apartheid". Its a way of keeping up the complaints when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.

Sovereignty over the Jordan Valley is a real problem. From the Israeli side, its a real security problem. 3 minute response times to incoming rockets, for example. Long border with no control over weapons smuggling. From the Palestinian side, it limits trade and agriculture. Real problem.

Make sense?

Yup, I see what you mean - thanks for elaborating

Okay, so let's look at what the real problems are, then?

1. Jordan Valley
2. Old City Jerusalem (Temple Mount)
3. Security for Israel
4. Trade access for Palestine to international markets
5. Ending the refugee issue (both real and imagined refugees)

Did I miss anything?

 

[Coyote]

Agree with you here...and the idea of a single bulky centralized state is from our modern idea of what a nation state should look like. And maybe it's time to ignore that.

But the second part - not sure about. What powers would be excluded from this?

For Arabs in the Middle East, the "nation state" was an option of last resort to KICK OUT lingering Imperialism.. It's NOT and never will be their preferred pol. model.. And the frictions that the Pali on the street have with the PA is that it's not a "friendly interface" to government when you're concerned about taxation, or licensing or zoning laws.. ALL of that should be on as local a level as possible and MAYBE NOT be "uniform" throughout the Pali centers of living.. It's that UNIFORMITY that a central govt tries to asserts that rubs them the wrong way..

Me TOO for that matter.. THat's why our Constitution clearly spelled out the ONLY MATTERS that would fall to the Federal govt with all other decisions delegated to the states and towns respectively.. It's the same kind of starting point as we had...

Not for me to decide how much "freedom and autonomy" they cede to their "national govt" or federation.. But the ones I listed make SENSE to handle at that level..

I think that is what was also bothering me, but I couldn't clearly identify it, and was thinking more in that they don't have direct access to major rivers, their own ports or other borders....trade is awfully dependent on going through Israel.

Yep.. 80 pages, a bunch of map analytics, and not much in the way of CONNECTING the Palis to their fractured selves or the world.. Which is why I'm pitching a highway in my paper that CONNECTS all the pali city centers AND the neighboring Arab states (thru proper ports of entry)...

View attachment 304344

Highway is mostly built over EXISTING roads along the Jordan River with PARTS of it on the Jordan side. Also has a feeder to Egypt going thru EXISTING ports of entry for custom... NO connection to Gaza or Lebanon YET -- but depending on people coming to their senses and SMELLING the prosperity, maybe soon in the future...

This is WELL WITHIN the large scope of "economic development" that Trump plan was promising.. But it was NOT part of "the deal".... Total miles of constructed (not future) road is under about 200 miles long..

A concept like that would go far to address concerns! I like that!

 

[Coyote]

It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic. So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.

Just for reference can you think of any other country that has had to deal with something like this in terms of borders?

Okay, so I've been using "not a real problem" quite a bit. (Though I think rylah actually said it first). Perhaps I should explain what I mean by that.

"Not a real problem" is code for things that one side or the other uses to shut down negotiations, rather than being either a practical problem which needs to be solved, or being a position which is strongly held by either of the Parties for reasons of national importance.

Contiguity is one such "not a real problem". As long as people can freely travel in their own States and not have to cross international borders to get to work, then its not a real problem. (And its actually an improvement over today's situation). It just needs a work around. The reason it is presented as a "real problem" when it is not is to continue to give credence to the demonizing notion of "apartheid". Its a way of keeping up the complaints when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.

Sovereignty over the Jordan Valley is a real problem. From the Israeli side, its a real security problem. 3 minute response times to incoming rockets, for example. Long border with no control over weapons smuggling. From the Palestinian side, it limits trade and agriculture. Real problem.

Make sense?

Yup, I see what you mean - thanks for elaborating

Okay, so let's look at what the real problems are, then?

1. Jordan Valley
2. Old City Jerusalem (Temple Mount)
3. Security for Israel
4. Trade access for Palestine to international markets
5. Ending the refugee issue (both real and imagined refugees)

Did I miss anything?

Not that I can think of - I think you hit on them.

 

[flacaltenn]

And that view is exactly the problem.

Exactly how?
Maybe that's the remedy.

When a land that belongs to multiple peoples who view the land as belonging to only one of them - it creates problems for the other peoples who feel it is their land as well.

Does the land belong to the native population or to foreign settlers?

Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities. They are not "native" to the land or descended from the now-defunct Canaanites. On the other hand, Israelis speak the same language that was spoken 2,000 years ago, as well as use the same currency (proven by archaeology), and celebrate the same national holidays. Most Arabacized names of the cities and towns in Israel and Judea (or the West Bank) come from the Hebrew. So Jews aren't "foreign" to Israel.

Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities.

Israeli bullshit, of course. The Zionists kept economic improvements to themselves.

Aint BullShit TInmore.. Or like a local talk show host says "Bovine Scatology"....

One of the largest sources of income for middle class Palis in the West Bank are jobs and trade with Israel..

The jobs part is more than fair and mutually beneficial... But the trade part is quite unfair under military occupation and policing right now...

Who you think has the MONEY to build new fancy cities and settlements in the Pali WB? It aint coming from spice carts or falafel stands...

 

[Shusha]

It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic. So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.

Just for reference can you think of any other country that has had to deal with something like this in terms of borders?

Okay, so I've been using "not a real problem" quite a bit. (Though I think rylah actually said it first). Perhaps I should explain what I mean by that.

"Not a real problem" is code for things that one side or the other uses to shut down negotiations, rather than being either a practical problem which needs to be solved, or being a position which is strongly held by either of the Parties for reasons of national importance.

Contiguity is one such "not a real problem". As long as people can freely travel in their own States and not have to cross international borders to get to work, then its not a real problem. (And its actually an improvement over today's situation). It just needs a work around. The reason it is presented as a "real problem" when it is not is to continue to give credence to the demonizing notion of "apartheid". Its a way of keeping up the complaints when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.

Sovereignty over the Jordan Valley is a real problem. From the Israeli side, its a real security problem. 3 minute response times to incoming rockets, for example. Long border with no control over weapons smuggling. From the Palestinian side, it limits trade and agriculture. Real problem.

Make sense?

Yup, I see what you mean - thanks for elaborating

Okay, so let's look at what the real problems are, then?

1. Jordan Valley
2. Old City Jerusalem (Temple Mount)
3. Security for Israel
4. Trade access for Palestine to international markets
5. Ending the refugee issue (both real and imagined refugees)

Did I miss anything?

Not that I can think of - I think you hit on them.

Cool. Do you think they are problems that can be solved? I do. Here's my thoughts.

5. The refugee issue is a non-starter. Its an international problem with international solutions. (Just like all other refugee crises). The problem to be solved is not the "return". The problem to be solved is to make sure that every individual who is currently not living in acceptable circumstances is provided with safety, security and dignity. The choice should be on the remaining refugees (I believe about 250,000 in Lebanon and 150,000 in Jordan currently without citizenship status or acceptable living conditions), to be repatriated to a State of Palestine (their homeland), to be fully incorporated with all rights into their country of birth or to be resettled in a third country.

Agreed?

 

[Olde Europe]

#2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.

Israel, withdrawing their criminally occupying settlers from the occupied West Bank (except in cases of mutually agreed land swaps), would not only be not criminal, it would be enforcing the law. Moreover, without that, there will be no peaceful, lasting agreement.

So you're STILL ignoring the fact that Israel TRIED that approach with the PA when they TOTALLY VACATED GAZA are ya????

That plan can go to the shredder... It's Einstein's definition of insanity... Learn from history...

Say, Flac, how is it that a few harmless rockets (by Israel's standards) flying from Gaza justify crimes in the West Bank?

Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?

 

[Shusha]

2. The Old City of Jerusalem and the holy places.

While I feel slightly bad saying so, I think this is also a non-starter. Israel just can't let the Old City and the holy places go. The Trump Plan is absolutely correct in stating that the Old City and the holy and archaeological places are doing very well under the stewardship of Israel. I can't say that we can expect that of the Palestinians.

That said, some sort of fast-track for Muslims to visit the Muslim shrines would be the right thing to do.

I think the Trump Plan got this one right. But I know this is going to be a hard place for the Arabs to give up.

 

[flacaltenn]

Say, Flac, how is it that a few harmless rockets (by Israel's standards) flying from Gaza justify crimes in the West Bank?

It doesn't.. Where'd you get the Israelis blaming the wrong rocket launchers? The PA hates the Gaza govt.. They are in a formal cold war with occasional assassinations.

What I'm telling you is there is NOT ENOUGH STABILITY in Pali diplomatic/political representation to PREVENT another Pali Civil War and ending up with folks in charge of the WB that we're NEVER SIGNED UP for peace...

Every Israeli dragged long time Jewish residents screaming and kicking out of Gaza.. THat WAS a good faith exercise and it failed for reasons that STILL exist.. So when you DEMAND a repetition, it's just never gonna happen that way again..

 

[Coyote]

It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic. So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.

Just for reference can you think of any other country that has had to deal with something like this in terms of borders?

Okay, so I've been using "not a real problem" quite a bit. (Though I think rylah actually said it first). Perhaps I should explain what I mean by that.

"Not a real problem" is code for things that one side or the other uses to shut down negotiations, rather than being either a practical problem which needs to be solved, or being a position which is strongly held by either of the Parties for reasons of national importance.

Contiguity is one such "not a real problem". As long as people can freely travel in their own States and not have to cross international borders to get to work, then its not a real problem. (And its actually an improvement over today's situation). It just needs a work around. The reason it is presented as a "real problem" when it is not is to continue to give credence to the demonizing notion of "apartheid". Its a way of keeping up the complaints when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.

Sovereignty over the Jordan Valley is a real problem. From the Israeli side, its a real security problem. 3 minute response times to incoming rockets, for example. Long border with no control over weapons smuggling. From the Palestinian side, it limits trade and agriculture. Real problem.

Make sense?

Yup, I see what you mean - thanks for elaborating

Okay, so let's look at what the real problems are, then?

1. Jordan Valley
2. Old City Jerusalem (Temple Mount)
3. Security for Israel
4. Trade access for Palestine to international markets
5. Ending the refugee issue (both real and imagined refugees)

Did I miss anything?

Not that I can think of - I think you hit on them.

Cool. Do you think they are problems that can be solved? I do. Here's my thoughts.

5. The refugee issue is a non-starter. Its an international problem with international solutions. (Just like all other refugee crises). The problem to be solved is not the "return". The problem to be solved is to make sure that every individual who is currently not living in acceptable circumstances is provided with safety, security and dignity. The choice should be on the remaining refugees (I believe about 250,000 in Lebanon and 150,000 in Jordan currently without citizenship status or acceptable living conditions), to be repatriated to a State of Palestine (their homeland), to be fully incorporated with all rights into their country of birth or to be resettled in a third country.

Agreed?

Actually I am going to add one more real problem I just thought of (so if you agree, add it to your list) - Gaza.

And yes, I agree on the refugee issue - it is an international problem, and it's time to step up to the plate and do what's right and handle it like any other refugee situation. Your idea also mean that Palestine won't be flooded beyond what it can handle.

 

[Coyote]

#2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.

Israel, withdrawing their criminally occupying settlers from the occupied West Bank (except in cases of mutually agreed land swaps), would not only be not criminal, it would be enforcing the law. Moreover, without that, there will be no peaceful, lasting agreement.

So you're STILL ignoring the fact that Israel TRIED that approach with the PA when they TOTALLY VACATED GAZA are ya????

That plan can go to the shredder... It's Einstein's definition of insanity... Learn from history...

Say, Flac, how is it that a few harmless rockets (by Israel's standards) flying from Gaza justify crimes in the West Bank?

Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?

I'm going to add something here...it's not really a "few harmless rockets" - it's the fact that any state has obligation to protect it's citizens, and those rockets do go into civilian areas and have caused damage and injury.

Would the US accept that if Mexico started flinging rockets over our border? Not likely. No state would.

 

[flacaltenn]

Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?

They HAD a fairly good start at their OWN policing, but the Pali Civil war destroyed that progress as well... I wouldn't picture daily life in the WB as "out of control".. Israel has no plans to INTERN them in a walled encampment with no quality of life as Pali refugees in Syria and Lebanon now live.. Life is OK. It's just not on THEIR TERMS as it ought to be..

And reasonable people (even in Israel or like me) are TRYING to normalize their lives and get them out of limbo.

DEMANDING chit from EITHER side is not gonna chit done..

 

[Coyote]

Exactly how?
Maybe that's the remedy.

When a land that belongs to multiple peoples who view the land as belonging to only one of them - it creates problems for the other peoples who feel it is their land as well.

Does the land belong to the native population or to foreign settlers?

Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities. They are not "native" to the land or descended from the now-defunct Canaanites. On the other hand, Israelis speak the same language that was spoken 2,000 years ago, as well as use the same currency (proven by archaeology), and celebrate the same national holidays. Most Arabacized names of the cities and towns in Israel and Judea (or the West Bank) come from the Hebrew. So Jews aren't "foreign" to Israel.

Actually, thought there was SOME Arab immigration for jobs there is nothing to show that "most" came for that purpose. Neither group is foreign.

Except the one who has actually written INVADER on the forehead,
and marches under the flag of 4 various Caliphates that invaded several continents.

Who would that be?

You and I will never agree on this, so there is no point in going with it, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Coyote]

Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?

They HAD a fairly good start at their OWN policing, but the Pali Civil war destroyed that progress as well... I wouldn't picture daily life in the WB as "out of control".. Israel has no plans to INTERN them in a walled encampment with no quality of life as Pali refugees in Syria and Lebanon now live.. Life is OK. It's just not on THEIR TERMS as it ought to be..

And reasonable people (even in Israel or like me) are TRYING to normalize their lives and get them out of limbo.

DEMANDING chit from EITHER side is not gonna chit done..

And also why I think Gaza should negotiated with as a separate entity.

 

[Indeependent]

They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel. The plain fact is - Israel is not going away. And for the Palestinians rights and ability to live prosperously and peacefully, that needs to be recognized so something can actually happen to allow the Palestinians to come into their own and define themselves by something other than conflict.

At some point, if you care about the Palestinians AS a people, with rights and a homeland, you need to recognize this and recognize that this is a shared homeland.

So Israel isn't going away. It won't dissolve nor should it. How can the international community help the Palestinians realize a future?

They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel.

Palestine never had an army. They never attacked Israel.

They were not part of the1948 war.

You don't need a standing army to wage war or attack. Witness ISIS and Al Queda (not that I am comparing their actions to the Palestinian) - but the point is attack and defense isn't dependent on the traditional army.

The Palestinians were virtually all unarmed civilians attacked by Israel's military that included WWII military equipment.

The Palis were never attacked; perhaps that’s why there are 6 million of them at the moment.

yes. They were. The conflicts surrounding the end of the mandate included Jewish militias attacking Palestinians just as included Palestinians. But it is a pointless argument that accomplishes nothing today

Abbas' leadership is not very strong and he is not very popular.

I think parts of the Arab world is maturing in the area of world wide geo-politics and economies. I think they realize making peace with Israel is in everyone's best interest. IMO only. But seeing the refugees from the conflicts in Iraq and Syria, the growth of much more sophisticated terrorist ideologies that are destabilizing to themselves. I don't know...

Exactly. But Abbas is likely to be replaced by someone MORE extremist, rather than less. Which leaves us, what? Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, West Bank on the one side and Israel, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Oman on the other and a WHOLE LOT of wishy washy. I'd hope Egypt and Jordan are smart enough well, not to be stupid.

All good questions...

You got a Link for those attacks?

 

[Shusha]

Actually I am going to add one more real problem I just thought of (so if you agree, add it to your list) - Gaza.

Oh yeah. That's a WHOLE 'nother.

 

[Coyote]

Palestine never had an army. They never attacked Israel.

They were not part of the1948 war.

You don't need a standing army to wage war or attack. Witness ISIS and Al Queda (not that I am comparing their actions to the Palestinian) - but the point is attack and defense isn't dependent on the traditional army.

The Palestinians were virtually all unarmed civilians attacked by Israel's military that included WWII military equipment.

The Palis were never attacked; perhaps that’s why there are 6 million of them at the moment.

yes. They were. The conflicts surrounding the end of the mandate included Jewish militias attacking Palestinians just as included Palestinians. But it is a pointless argument that accomplishes nothing today

Abbas' leadership is not very strong and he is not very popular.

I think parts of the Arab world is maturing in the area of world wide geo-politics and economies. I think they realize making peace with Israel is in everyone's best interest. IMO only. But seeing the refugees from the conflicts in Iraq and Syria, the growth of much more sophisticated terrorist ideologies that are destabilizing to themselves. I don't know...

Exactly. But Abbas is likely to be replaced by someone MORE extremist, rather than less. Which leaves us, what? Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, West Bank on the one side and Israel, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Oman on the other and a WHOLE LOT of wishy washy. I'd hope Egypt and Jordan are smart enough well, not to be stupid.

All good questions...

You got a Link for those attacks?

I'm sure they've been discussed in one of the historical threads involving the Mandate era, that are pinned to the top of forum. Otherwise I'm not going to derail this into a discussion that belongs in one of those threads.

 

[Olde Europe]

I'm going to add something here...it's not really a "few harmless rockets" - it's the fact that any state has obligation to protect it's citizens, and those rockets do go into civilian areas and have caused damage and injury.

So, a de-militarized Palestine is a no-go, then, right?

BTW, I am investing considerable time expressing myself as precisely as I can. I said harmless rockets "by Israel's standards" for a purpose.