Trump's trade war with China

[Paulie]

Somewhere back in this thread Germany was brought up. The question was why they were able to maintain paying the manufacturing labor a good wage and not lose jobs to lower wage countries.

Perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact the average CEO in Germany makes on average 12 times the amount of their workers while in the US CEOs make 400 times as much as their workers.

We’re talking about billion dollar companies and you’re trying to make the point that because a CEO makes 20 million they can’t afford to pay employees more. Have you ever actually just taken the time to consider what CEO’s are worth to their companies? We have seen literally ONE PERSON come into a company that’s performing poorly and change the whole structure around and turn it into a highly profitable business again. These people have run huge multinational companies and made decisions with their knowledge that have made entire markets and employed thousands of people. Not all of them are greedy pieces of shit, but they’re still worth exponentially more to the company than any single lower level employee. Worrying about CEO pay is such a waste of time and energy with this issue. If they’re a crappy CEO like Jeff imelt for example, then they should simply be fired. Any of the CEO’s of the big banks that lost their asses during the housing collapse should be fired too. And the ones who got huge severances from Lehman and Bear, those are the ones to be upset about. But regardless of any of this, CEO pay is a very small percentage of a company’s expense. You’re attacking a symptom and not a cause. At the end of the day workers need to stand up for themselves way more. I get that many can’t gamble with their paychecks because they can’t afford to take the stand but as I’ve pointed out before, if you don’t have a marketable skill that employers NEED then you don’t have any negotiation leverage to begin with.

 

[Brain357]

It is not difficult, it is impossible. At best fair is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. I think it is unfair that a football player can make more per TD pass than a nurse makes in a year. But others would tell you it is fair because the player has the more unique skill

Yes, it is clear cut. We have more wealth to spend and we are spending it. Nobody has ever been able to explain why trade deficits are so terrible. You have a trade deficit with your grocery store, do you whine about it every day?


When do you view as the start of our "free trade" era?

1. Bull.

2. A fair trade relationship, is mutually beneficial. If the money is flowing more in one way, than in the other, if one side is experiencing massive growth, while the other is being hollowed out, with massive social costs, that is a clear cut case of "not fair". There, I have explained it AGAIN.


AND also, something none of YOU have been able to explain, if the trade deficit is not bad, and the trade surplus is not good (for them), then why are they (and you) so opposed to changing it? cnm has admitted that his reason is that he hates the Americans that would benefit from doing so, he wants to see China benefit while working class whites get fucked.


3. Good question about the "era of free trade". NOt sure. SOmetime in the early 70s seems to be likely. Perhaps earlier and it just took time for the effects to be felt.

I've answered your question several times. China needs the tax dollars. Tariffs are a tax. They tax imports because they need the tax dollars.

NO ONE IS STOPPING THEM FROM TAXING THEIR IMPORTS. YOUR ANSWER MAKES NO SENSE.


TRY AGAIN!

Then what is it you are expecting China to do?

Really open their markets to our exports, stop intellectual theft, stop artificially lowering their currency, and accept that we will use tariffs to put their exports more in line price wise with our domestic manufacturing.

So open their markets by decreasing tariffs on our exports to them? I don’t know what else you could want.

 

[Brain357]

1. Your answer is No. So why are you promoting higher prices at the counter? Since when that is acceptable?

2. Jobs are not coming back. You can ask Donnie and Ivanka if they can make their products here in US. The best scenario is they go to other neighboring countries.
Moving business and operations back to US is big business mistakes because of high labor costs. That is not going to happen.

3 and 4. What do you mean short term? These companies are in business for decades making money. Donnie is disrupting all the progress and the economy.
So you are willing to sacrifice people lives and businesses? It will take several years or never to recover from bankruptcy.
It will be like you making money now. Then Donnie comes in and fuck you up. Just like what he did with the US farmers. A lot of those people will never recover.

5. So if Donnie cannot make a deal you will slap them with more tariffs? If that is so easy do you think Donnie could have come out swinging by now?
Americans are paying for the higher tariffs right now. It’s a price we don’t need.
Maybe you don’t even understand the ripple effect to ordinary American lives of this dumb trade wars.

6. You do NOT represent poor Americans. You do NOT represent businesses here in America for you to say that.
Of the 220 millions registered voters only 63+ millions voted for Trump. With all the hatred and disgusting tweets and lies. Do you honestly believe that the 63+ grew or decrease?
I can honestly tells you that lot of his supporters are sick of his ineptness.

7. Life doesn’t work that way. This also proved that Donnie has nothing to do with the current booming economy.
It’s just hard how you can say something like that to your own fellow Americans.
Yes you are anti Americans.

1. Since the jobs did not come back already, the way they were supposed to.

2. Manufacturing has already seen improvements. And I heard in the immediate aftermath of his election, that local manufactures were FLOODED with inquires from foreign businesses looking to move production here to avoid tariffs. It is not happen, because he was not as aggressive as they feared. But it could.


3. Your assumption of a worst case scenario, ie a rapid abrupt change with no transition period, is certainly possible, and even then would be worth the long term good.


5. Not sure of the political difficulties. Hell, I don't know if it is doable at all. But my point stands. Yes, I am in favor of tariffs.

6. Your numbers games are noted and dismissed. My point was that there is a large base of support for this policy in America,and if you want to play numbers games, consider how many Americans support American jobs, but dont' support Trump because of the leftard lies you mentioned.


7. Those of you on your side of this debate, have and still are basically said, "fuck them" to those who have lost out to this policy. CNM, has admitted that the reason he supports this policy is that he hates the Americans who are the ones that lost. He sides with China because he likes them better than white working class Americans.

Your rebuttal From 1 to 7. Are just an anti Americans anti business hurting Americans. Nothing more.

My pointing out that the policy of Free Trade, did not have the promised results, and should be changed,


is not anti-American.



You are a liar and an asshole.

So all these things have happened and you blame free trade? Many of our companies have near monopolies, wage collusion, non competes, right to work laws, decline in unions... Internally everything has turned on workers. That's is not trades fault.

Outsourcing and the loss of domestic markets to imports, and the loss of export markets to others, are a result of trade policy.

Trade policy won’t change that everything we have done is against the worker. I’ve provided a long list of examples including studies stating they are bad for wages. Again we have the wealth and low unemployment,

 

[cnm]

Nope, cold hard reality.

Fantasy, self deluding, self back slapping fantasy.

 

[Brain357]

1. Your answer is No. So why are you promoting higher prices at the counter? Since when that is acceptable?

2. Jobs are not coming back. You can ask Donnie and Ivanka if they can make their products here in US. The best scenario is they go to other neighboring countries.
Moving business and operations back to US is big business mistakes because of high labor costs. That is not going to happen.

3 and 4. What do you mean short term? These companies are in business for decades making money. Donnie is disrupting all the progress and the economy.
So you are willing to sacrifice people lives and businesses? It will take several years or never to recover from bankruptcy.
It will be like you making money now. Then Donnie comes in and fuck you up. Just like what he did with the US farmers. A lot of those people will never recover.

5. So if Donnie cannot make a deal you will slap them with more tariffs? If that is so easy do you think Donnie could have come out swinging by now?
Americans are paying for the higher tariffs right now. It’s a price we don’t need.
Maybe you don’t even understand the ripple effect to ordinary American lives of this dumb trade wars.

6. You do NOT represent poor Americans. You do NOT represent businesses here in America for you to say that.
Of the 220 millions registered voters only 63+ millions voted for Trump. With all the hatred and disgusting tweets and lies. Do you honestly believe that the 63+ grew or decrease?
I can honestly tells you that lot of his supporters are sick of his ineptness.

7. Life doesn’t work that way. This also proved that Donnie has nothing to do with the current booming economy.
It’s just hard how you can say something like that to your own fellow Americans.
Yes you are anti Americans.

1. Since the jobs did not come back already, the way they were supposed to.

2. Manufacturing has already seen improvements. And I heard in the immediate aftermath of his election, that local manufactures were FLOODED with inquires from foreign businesses looking to move production here to avoid tariffs. It is not happen, because he was not as aggressive as they feared. But it could.


3. Your assumption of a worst case scenario, ie a rapid abrupt change with no transition period, is certainly possible, and even then would be worth the long term good.


5. Not sure of the political difficulties. Hell, I don't know if it is doable at all. But my point stands. Yes, I am in favor of tariffs.

6. Your numbers games are noted and dismissed. My point was that there is a large base of support for this policy in America,and if you want to play numbers games, consider how many Americans support American jobs, but dont' support Trump because of the leftard lies you mentioned.


7. Those of you on your side of this debate, have and still are basically said, "fuck them" to those who have lost out to this policy. CNM, has admitted that the reason he supports this policy is that he hates the Americans who are the ones that lost. He sides with China because he likes them better than white working class Americans.

Your rebuttal From 1 to 7. Are just an anti Americans anti business hurting Americans. Nothing more.

My pointing out that the policy of Free Trade, did not have the promised results, and should be changed,


is not anti-American.



You are a liar and an asshole.

I am being honest with the reality. You are coming up with just philosophical and unacceptable opinions.

The end results of your wish are the sufferings of poor Americans. Loosing jobs and businesses and paying higher prices. You are an anti American.

All of that just because how much you adore an inept POTUS.

Except we are already seeing improvements in the manufacturing employment, and I have personal knowledge of inquiries from foreign businesses who were preparing to move production to US manufacturing to avoid tariffs (after Trump was elected).



So, it is a realistic policy option.


The end result would be slightly higher prices for consumers and lower profit margins for the rich, more than balanced out by improved jobs, improved wages and thus healthier families and communities.

U.S. manufacturing is in a recession. What does that mean for the rest of the country?

Watch employment fall.

 

[cnm]

Nope, cold hard reality.

In case you missed it...

More self delusion. An example. We can supply freight included, at a lower carbon footprint, lamb that is guaranteed to be without incisors and not over a year old to the American market for less than the cost of local product, that has no age guarantee.

edit...And that's only one sector. Perhaps you'd like to take the tariffs and quotas off dairy? Because we wouldn't be able to compete your growers wouldn't lose market share, right?

With effectively no subsidies, btw and at EU quality requirements.

 

[cnm]

So open their markets by decreasing tariffs on our exports to them? I don’t know what else you could want.

I think Correll must believe China pays the tariffs on its exports to the US. That's the only way his reasoning can achieve any coherency.

 

[Brain357]

So open their markets by decreasing tariffs on our exports to them? I don’t know what else you could want.

I think Correll must believe China pays the tariffs on its exports to the US. That's the only way his reasoning can achieve any coherency.

Yes he does not make sense.

 

[The Original Tree]

Everyone is happy Spineless Globalist Obama and Clinton are not selling us out to countries like China, while Trump is taking back ground Globalists like Obama Bin Lying and Bill Rotten Clinton were giving up to our economic enemies.

 

[Paulie]

So open their markets by decreasing tariffs on our exports to them? I don’t know what else you could want.

I think Correll must believe China pays the tariffs on its exports to the US. That's the only way his reasoning can achieve any coherency.

It’s not the Chinese government that pays the tariff it’s a direct tax on the importing company. But that means not only the US companies but the Chinese companies as well and any other countries’ companies that import to the US. The point of the tariff is to push the exporters out of China so they feel economic pain of that loss enough to change their ways. The simple way around the tariff is to just move your exporting to another country. When used at its entire power you would have essentially placed tariffs on anywhere else in the world your imports are coming from as well until it became the most profitable to manufacture here in the US instead of importing, thats why it’s called protectionism. With globalization it’s much harder to compete with that type of trade policy but it doesn’t mean the tool can’t still be used effectively. Trump isn’t even doing that he’s just saying to China you can either change your ways or feel the pain of losing a hell of a lot of manufacturing business from your biggest consumer.

 

[cnm]

It’s not the Chinese government that pays the tariff it’s a direct tax on the importing company.

I understand tariffs and free trade. We have about the lowest tariff structure in the world and positively chase FTAs.

edit...We have one with China. But not the US.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Trump's trade war with China is a failure, as is Trump's 'presidency.'

I agree that that's the anti-American Communist perspective......but.....
If Trump's presidency is a "failure", then it must follow that Obama's Presidency was a Certified National Disaster on an epic scale.

 

[Brain357]

The premium for manufacturing job wages is eroding like all our wages:
Yes, manufacturing still provides a pay advantage, but staffing firm outsourcing is eroding it

 

[danielpalos]

It is flowing the way it is, because of the trade policy, as your post with Milton discussed.


It is going to one group of people more than it has been to others, for quite some time.


At the very least, is it the turn of the others, for at least the next 60 years, to be fair.

You can't tie our wages to trade policy. China isn't telling our companies to pay little. That is an internal issue.

So, companies that lost all their market share because of our trade policy, are supposed to somehow be required to pay their workers more, instead of shutting down?


Your pretense that you can't see the connection between trade policy and wages is not credible.


Are you here for serious discussion, or just to be a troll boy like so many others?

Our companies are doing very well. You even said all the dollars are going to executives and investors. There is plenty of wealth in this country. I gave you many internal reasons why it is not going to workers. Many of our companies have near monopolies, wage collusion, non competes, right to work laws, decline in unions... Internally everything has turned on workers. That's is not trades fault.

The companies are doing well, because they have outsourced, or are importing from foreign manufacturers.


That does not help American workers, or families, or communities.


Thus, trade policy does end up being one of the causes of wage suppression.



YOur denial of this obvious fact, reveals a serious flaw in your whole position.

You seem to be the one in denial. We have tons of wealth and very low unemployment. The issue is clearly internal and I've given you many reason why our wages are lower than they should be. You seem to just want to deny the facts and blame China for no reason. AGAIN, we have lots of wealth and low unemployment. It isn't Chinas fault our companies aren't paying.

Corporate welfare is more efficient than Any trade war.

 

[danielpalos]

The House should consider wartime tax rates for alleged wars.

 

[bendog]

The House should consider wartime tax rates for alleged wars.

Trump's already given me my tax hike bc I need a new lawn mower and weed eater for next year, but thanks just the same. LOL And his bs income tax cut actually raised my taxes too.

 

[pknopp]

Somewhere back in this thread Germany was brought up. The question was why they were able to maintain paying the manufacturing labor a good wage and not lose jobs to lower wage countries.

Perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact the average CEO in Germany makes on average 12 times the amount of their workers while in the US CEOs make 400 times as much as their workers.

We’re talking about billion dollar companies and you’re trying to make the point that because a CEO makes 20 million they can’t afford to pay employees more. Have you ever actually just taken the time to consider what CEO’s are worth to their companies? We have seen literally ONE PERSON come into a company that’s performing poorly and change the whole structure around and turn it into a highly profitable business again. These people have run huge multinational companies and made decisions with their knowledge that have made entire markets and employed thousands of people. Not all of them are greedy pieces of shit, but they’re still worth exponentially more to the company than any single lower level employee. Worrying about CEO pay is such a waste of time and energy with this issue. If they’re a crappy CEO like Jeff imelt for example, then they should simply be fired. Any of the CEO’s of the big banks that lost their asses during the housing collapse should be fired too.

They weren't were they? Solutions that are not solutions are not solutions.

And the ones who got huge severances from Lehman and Bear, those are the ones to be upset about. But regardless of any of this, CEO pay is a very small percentage of a company’s expense. You’re attacking a symptom and not a cause. At the end of the day workers need to stand up for themselves way more. I get that many can’t gamble with their paychecks because they can’t afford to take the stand but as I’ve pointed out before, if you don’t have a marketable skill that employers NEED then you don’t have any negotiation leverage to begin with.

Ask for more pay and your job goes overseas. That is the answer far too many got.

 

[Paulie]

Somewhere back in this thread Germany was brought up. The question was why they were able to maintain paying the manufacturing labor a good wage and not lose jobs to lower wage countries.

Perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact the average CEO in Germany makes on average 12 times the amount of their workers while in the US CEOs make 400 times as much as their workers.

We’re talking about billion dollar companies and you’re trying to make the point that because a CEO makes 20 million they can’t afford to pay employees more. Have you ever actually just taken the time to consider what CEO’s are worth to their companies? We have seen literally ONE PERSON come into a company that’s performing poorly and change the whole structure around and turn it into a highly profitable business again. These people have run huge multinational companies and made decisions with their knowledge that have made entire markets and employed thousands of people. Not all of them are greedy pieces of shit, but they’re still worth exponentially more to the company than any single lower level employee. Worrying about CEO pay is such a waste of time and energy with this issue. If they’re a crappy CEO like Jeff imelt for example, then they should simply be fired. Any of the CEO’s of the big banks that lost their asses during the housing collapse should be fired too.

They weren't were they? Solutions that are not solutions are not solutions.

And the ones who got huge severances from Lehman and Bear, those are the ones to be upset about. But regardless of any of this, CEO pay is a very small percentage of a company’s expense. You’re attacking a symptom and not a cause. At the end of the day workers need to stand up for themselves way more. I get that many can’t gamble with their paychecks because they can’t afford to take the stand but as I’ve pointed out before, if you don’t have a marketable skill that employers NEED then you don’t have any negotiation leverage to begin with.

Ask for more pay and your job goes overseas. That is the answer far too many got.

And you’re complaining about a president trying to do something about it.

 

[pknopp]

Somewhere back in this thread Germany was brought up. The question was why they were able to maintain paying the manufacturing labor a good wage and not lose jobs to lower wage countries.

Perhaps part of the answer lies in the fact the average CEO in Germany makes on average 12 times the amount of their workers while in the US CEOs make 400 times as much as their workers.

We’re talking about billion dollar companies and you’re trying to make the point that because a CEO makes 20 million they can’t afford to pay employees more. Have you ever actually just taken the time to consider what CEO’s are worth to their companies? We have seen literally ONE PERSON come into a company that’s performing poorly and change the whole structure around and turn it into a highly profitable business again. These people have run huge multinational companies and made decisions with their knowledge that have made entire markets and employed thousands of people. Not all of them are greedy pieces of shit, but they’re still worth exponentially more to the company than any single lower level employee. Worrying about CEO pay is such a waste of time and energy with this issue. If they’re a crappy CEO like Jeff imelt for example, then they should simply be fired. Any of the CEO’s of the big banks that lost their asses during the housing collapse should be fired too.

They weren't were they? Solutions that are not solutions are not solutions.

And the ones who got huge severances from Lehman and Bear, those are the ones to be upset about. But regardless of any of this, CEO pay is a very small percentage of a company’s expense. You’re attacking a symptom and not a cause. At the end of the day workers need to stand up for themselves way more. I get that many can’t gamble with their paychecks because they can’t afford to take the stand but as I’ve pointed out before, if you don’t have a marketable skill that employers NEED then you don’t have any negotiation leverage to begin with.

Ask for more pay and your job goes overseas. That is the answer far too many got.

And you’re complaining about a president trying to do something about it.

He isn't. He is doing nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. Forcing a company to move to Thailand from China in no way addresses the problem.

 

[danielpalos]

The House should consider wartime tax rates for alleged wars.

Trump's already given me my tax hike bc I need a new lawn mower and weed eater for next year, but thanks just the same. LOL And his bs income tax cut actually raised my taxes too.

Sorry, this is not about ideology but capitalism. Do we subscribe to it or not?

Only what we Pay for should have Standing as (extra Constitutional) law.

Tax cut economics means our alleged wars cannot be serious.

Only wartime tax rates should enable government solutions the right wing fantasizes about now.