Two Questions for Atheists

[Boss]

Then why are theists such know it all assholes? They claim to know and they don't.

I try really hard not to apply generalities across a broad spectrum of people in any group. We're all individuals with individual minds and we don't all think alike, act alike or behave alike. It's really a sign of profound bigotry when you presume to speak for an entire group this way. Surely you don't believe ALL theists are assholes?

As for knowing... I know what I know. I'm not a person who has strong faith in things I don't know. If I didn't experience a profound benefit from my realization of Spiritual Energy, there is no way I could have faith that it exists. So I am at a distinct advantage over you because I realize and experience the benefits of Spiritual Nature daily in my life. I can't help that... that's not me being a know-it-all asshole. It doesn't really matter to me that you don't believe me, that's entirely your opinion and you're entitled to that.

 

[Meriweather]

A creator is accountable for his actions

Just like anyone else

Killing innocent children to punish a Pharaoh cannot be justified

Imagine the human race being judged by cattle. Or chickens. Imagine their conclusions about us based on their perceptions of us from their own lives.

God's ways, we are told, and His thoughts are as far above our ways and our thoughts as the heavens are above the earth. We should pause before accepting human conclusions that God punished Pharaoh by killing children. Or sending floods. Cancer. Whatever.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Back a few weeks ago, I posed my first question to Atheists and I was surprised how suddenly we had so many posters proclaim themselves "Agnostic!" It was an amazing thing to see. We constantly get bombarded with the so-called "naysayers" on this forum regularly but for some odd reason, my question turned them away from Atheism to Agnosticism instantly. I don't think I ever got an honest answer to my question. So I decided it would be a good idea for a thread OP.

First Question for Atheists:

Do you hope that you are wrong or do you hope that you are right?

It's not a trick question. It's relatively easy. Just answer it honestly. If you can't answer, perhaps you need to ask yourself the question in quiet contemplation? How you answer is important and I will explain later.

The second question is:

Do you ever have doubts about your Atheism?

Again, not a trick question, relatively easy to answer.

Now, I wish that I could take credit for these profoundly brilliant questions but I can't. They are presented by Dennis Prager in an article he posted some time back. I will outline a little more about what he had to say later on. For now, I just want to get some feedback from our Atheist contingent... if we have one.

There is no evidence of GOD; thus I'm an agnostic. A much better question to ponder is, "how high is up" and that I can't know either. So why bother? One might as well ponder the known world and current problems, such as healthcare, taxes or gun control.

 

[rightwinger]

what about when he ordered the death of untold amounts of children?

Let me answer your question with a question of my own. If there indeed is a creator, who created the universe and created both you and me, do you presume to know more than the creator about what is just and good? If this creator exists and he saw fit to end the physical lives of children, do you believe you are in an intellectual and moral position to pass judgment on the creator? Or is it possible and even probable that the creator knows what he is doing and that, one day, you too will understand?

A creator is accountable for his actions

Just like anyone else

Killing innocent children to punish a Pharaoh cannot be justified

You were there? You know they were innocent?

What crimes have infants committed?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Agnosticism is not a belief system. It means that you dont know, its intellectually honest.

And atheism means you refuse to be bullied into subscribing to theistic belief systems. More honest. With balls.

 

[K9Buck]

Agnosticism is not a belief system.

I didn't say that agnosticism is a "belief system". I said that everyone has their own belief system and that it's a bit hypocritical to bash one's "man-made" belief system while practicing one's own "man-made" belief system.

 

[Weatherman2020]

what about when he ordered the death of untold amounts of children?

Let me answer your question with a question of my own. If there indeed is a creator, who created the universe and created both you and me, do you presume to know more than the creator about what is just and good? If this creator exists and he saw fit to end the physical lives of children, do you believe you are in an intellectual and moral position to pass judgment on the creator? Or is it possible and even probable that the creator knows what he is doing and that, one day, you too will understand?

He even ordered the death of their livestock. Frankly, i cant fathom a reason to kill innocent newborns and cattle. Probably out of spite because they didnt suck his big toe like his precious israelite mercenaries. Remember, he brought death and destruction for expressing their "free will"
Punishing someone for doing something you gave the option of doing is in no way intelligent, sane, thoughtful, considerate, loving or basically any term that describes goodness.

Good points. CARM has good answers.

The Amalekites, who were descendents of Esau, had been longtime enemies of Israel. They fought against Israel at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8). Apparently, they "entertained a deep-seated grudge against them, especially as the rapid prosperity and marvelous experience of Israel showed that the blessing contained in the birthright [Jacob and Esau] was taking effect."1 They were a constant threat to Israel. Therefore, God said to Moses in Exodus 17:14“Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. The Bible says that all people have sinned against God and are under his righteous judgment. Therefore, their execution is not an arbitrary killing nor is it murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. For example, we can lawfully take a life in defense of our selves, our families, our nations, etc.

When God authorizes the nation of Israel to wipe out a people, it is a lawful execution due to their rebellion and sin against God. Furthermore, such an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become "utterly sinful".2Additionally, further generations that would have arisen from the perverse culture, are likewise prevented from coming into existence and spreading their sin.

Finally, one of the reasons that the Lord is so strong in the Old Testament and orders the killing of people is to ensure that the future messianic line would remain intact. The enemy, Satan, began his attempt to destroy God's people in the Garden of Eden, by also trying to corrupt the world (which led to Noah's Flood), by trying to destroy Israel with attacking armies, and by encouraging Israel to fall into idolatry by exposure to other cultures as well as intermarrying women from those cultures. The result of both the idolatry and the interbreeding would have been the failure of the prophecies that foretold of the coming Messiah which specified which family line the Messiah would come through. The Messiah, Jesus, would be the one who would die for the sins of the world and without that death there would be no atonement. Without the atonement, all people would be lost. So, God was ensuring the arrival of the Messiah via the destruction of the ungodly.


Why would God order the destruction of men, women, and children? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

 

[G.T.]

Agnosticism is not a belief system.

I didn't say that agnosticism is a "belief system". I said that everyone has their own belief system and that it's a bit hypocritical to bash one's "man-made" belief system while practicing one's own "man-made" belief system.

Practicing agnosticism is not practicing a belief system. Thats the point.

 

[TNHarley]

what about when he ordered the death of untold amounts of children?

Let me answer your question with a question of my own. If there indeed is a creator, who created the universe and created both you and me, do you presume to know more than the creator about what is just and good? If this creator exists and he saw fit to end the physical lives of children, do you believe you are in an intellectual and moral position to pass judgment on the creator? Or is it possible and even probable that the creator knows what he is doing and that, one day, you too will understand?

A creator is accountable for his actions

Just like anyone else

Killing innocent children to punish a Pharaoh cannot be justified

You were there? You know they were innocent?

What crimes have infants committed?

They could have came back and killed future generations, seems like the most logical.
Of course, they tried that excuse with the Amalekites. The bible says the thought they killed them all but a few years later they came back and freed their enslaved families.
A few hundred years later, a descendent tried to kill all the Jews.
Maybe if he didnt command their fucking genocide in the first place(for expressing free will that he gave them), NONE of it would have happened.

 

[MarkDuffy]

Filed under here we go again...

Do you hope that you are wrong or do you hope that you are right?

I hope that you are wrong

Do you ever have doubts about your Atheism?

I watch Ancient Aliens and I know the truth!

And yet ANOTHER example of someone who is unwilling to honestly answer my question! Why is this question so profoundly hard for Atheists to answer?

Cuz as you well know in the other thread you lied and did not tell us why the questions, you still haven't here either.

You also know your brethren have classified me as a defacto atheist when I have clearly over and over said that as a scientist, I cannot deny the possibility of a God.

Using only three categories is not fair. Technically I am much closer to atheist than agnostic. Agnostic implies we don't have an opinion. I do, a strong one.

As for the first question, of course I hope I am right.

So both questions answered.

Give me a Thank You

 

[TNHarley]

what about when he ordered the death of untold amounts of children?

Let me answer your question with a question of my own. If there indeed is a creator, who created the universe and created both you and me, do you presume to know more than the creator about what is just and good? If this creator exists and he saw fit to end the physical lives of children, do you believe you are in an intellectual and moral position to pass judgment on the creator? Or is it possible and even probable that the creator knows what he is doing and that, one day, you too will understand?

He even ordered the death of their livestock. Frankly, i cant fathom a reason to kill innocent newborns and cattle. Probably out of spite because they didnt suck his big toe like his precious israelite mercenaries. Remember, he brought death and destruction for expressing their "free will"
Punishing someone for doing something you gave the option of doing is in no way intelligent, sane, thoughtful, considerate, loving or basically any term that describes goodness.

Good points. CARM has good answers.

The Amalekites, who were descendents of Esau, had been longtime enemies of Israel. They fought against Israel at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8). Apparently, they "entertained a deep-seated grudge against them, especially as the rapid prosperity and marvelous experience of Israel showed that the blessing contained in the birthright [Jacob and Esau] was taking effect."1 They were a constant threat to Israel. Therefore, God said to Moses in Exodus 17:14“Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”

God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. The Bible says that all people have sinned against God and are under his righteous judgment. Therefore, their execution is not an arbitrary killing nor is it murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. For example, we can lawfully take a life in defense of our selves, our families, our nations, etc.

When God authorizes the nation of Israel to wipe out a people, it is a lawful execution due to their rebellion and sin against God. Furthermore, such an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become "utterly sinful".2Additionally, further generations that would have arisen from the perverse culture, are likewise prevented from coming into existence and spreading their sin.

Finally, one of the reasons that the Lord is so strong in the Old Testament and orders the killing of people is to ensure that the future messianic line would remain intact. The enemy, Satan, began his attempt to destroy God's people in the Garden of Eden, by also trying to corrupt the world (which led to Noah's Flood), by trying to destroy Israel with attacking armies, and by encouraging Israel to fall into idolatry by exposure to other cultures as well as intermarrying women from those cultures. The result of both the idolatry and the interbreeding would have been the failure of the prophecies that foretold of the coming Messiah which specified which family line the Messiah would come through. The Messiah, Jesus, would be the one who would die for the sins of the world and without that death there would be no atonement. Without the atonement, all people would be lost. So, God was ensuring the arrival of the Messiah via the destruction of the ungodly.


Why would God order the destruction of men, women, and children? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

That just isnt rational to me. Its pure savagery

 

[K9Buck]

belief without proof is a mockable offense.

Well, in our daily pursuit of life, we are constantly anticipating what will happen next and what the future likely holds for us. You spoke about "conflating" while simultaneously conflating that, one's "belief" in the likelihood of something occurring or existing without proof, as being "dishonest". That is not a reasonable statement.

 

[G.T.]

belief without proof is a mockable offense.

Well, in our daily pursuit of life, we are constantly anticipating what will happen next and what the future likely holds for us. You spoke about "conflating" while simultaneously conflating that, one's "belief" in the likelihood of something occurring or existing without proof, as being "dishonest". That is not a reasonable statement.

Thats why I clarified.

When someone believes and acknowledges that they can't prove it...that's honest.

When one proclaims proof, Ive a problem with their honesty.

 

[K9Buck]

Frankly, i cant fathom a reason to kill innocent newborns and cattle. Probably out of spite because they didnt suck his big toe like his precious israelite mercenaries.

If you believe you are intellectually and morally superior to the creator, it's ok with me. I don't share your belief, but that's ok.

 

[K9Buck]

Her belief is not a lie, its that if she proclaims to 'know for certain' while the possibility that it was a hallucination exists. She cant know that for certain visa vie the nature of hallucinations. A pragmatic person knows how to think about these things in such a way.

There are a LOT of people like her who swear that their experience was absolutely real. Who are you or I to tell them they're wrong? That doesn't mean I automatically believe them, but there are some that seem very sincere to me. I can share some if you are interested in taking a look at them.

 

[G.T.]

Her belief is not a lie, its that if she proclaims to 'know for certain' while the possibility that it was a hallucination exists. She cant know that for certain visa vie the nature of hallucinations. A pragmatic person knows how to think about these things in such a way.

There are a LOT of people like her who swear that their experience was absolutely real. Who are you or I to tell them they're wrong? That doesn't mean I automatically believe them, but there are some that seem very sincere to me. I can share some if you are interested in taking a look at them.

The nature of many hallucinations is that they seem real, to the one having the experience.

That the possibility exists, the person shouldnt proclaim to know if it was real or not because theres no logical way TO know.

 

[Meriweather]

The nature of many hallucinations is that they seem real, to the one having the experience.

That the possibility exists, the person shouldnt proclaim to know if it was real or not because theres no logical way TO know.

Yet I know at least two people who can identify for a fact they were having a hallucination. Therefore it seems equally likely people are able to identify when they are not hallucinating.

 

[K9Buck]

There is no evidence of GOD...

 

[G.T.]

The nature of many hallucinations is that they seem real, to the one having the experience.

That the possibility exists, the person shouldnt proclaim to know if it was real or not because theres no logical way TO know.

Yet I know at least two people who can identify for a fact they were having a hallucination. Therefore it seems equally likely people are able to identify when they are not hallucinating.

No, there's both. Being aware, and not being aware (that youre hallucinating).

 

[MarkDuffy]

There is no evidence of GOD...

Glad you agree there is no evidence