Union Card Bill Bringing on Bullies?

[RightofCenter]

Unions. A dead fat carp lying rotting on the beach, putrified, doing no one but the bacteria that feed off it, any good. (there are parallels here, if you look)

The smell that carp gives off is rotten. The value that carp has is rotten. The contribution that carp makes to anyone but the bacteria feeding off it is nonexistant.

The carp does the beach no good. The carp does the people on the beach no good, the carp doesnt help improve life for anyone but the bacteria that feed off of it.

So there you have it. The unions and the carp, the union worker and the bacteria. Its all a symbiotic relationship, and nothing more.

 

[Gunny]

There is no need for Unions. Corporations will always look out for their people.

This has nothing to do with productivity increasing in the last 20+ years and real wages going down.

Damn union. Next they might hire people to beat you up like the union busters did originally.

In there current state, you are correct. There is no need of unions. They are nothing but corrupt bureaucracies that scarcely embody the original intent trade unions. When they were about the tradesman and his welfare, they were a good thing. The current unions are about supporting the unions first.

I am not against the ideal of trade unions, nor am I against people that wish to join unions as they currently exist. I AM against union strongarm tactics.

If unions are that bad then people should join and push out the bad people.

To what purpose? Keeping the unions no matter what is not the only choice.

 

[Diuretic]

In there current state, you are correct. There is no need of unions. They are nothing but corrupt bureaucracies that scarcely embody the original intent trade unions. When they were about the tradesman and his welfare, they were a good thing. The current unions are about supporting the unions first.

I am not against the ideal of trade unions, nor am I against people that wish to join unions as they currently exist. I AM against union strongarm tactics.

If unions are that bad then people should join and push out the bad people.

To what purpose? Keeping the unions no matter what is not the only choice.

Of themselves unions are good, by that I mean their existence is good. If a union is run by careerists or bosses' stooges then ordinary members should work to get rid of them. I know big unions can look monolithic but that doesn't mean that they can't be flushed out from the inside.

Some years ago I went to a lecture in Melbourne (Victoria) to the offices of the ACTU where an American academic from Boston University was giving a session about how US unions developed . It was really interesting. He was explaining how unions in the US go through various stages of development and how at any given time the unions have different internal heroes. I think now for most unions it may well be the case that they have turned into self-serving bureaucracies that go through the motions of contract negotiation at various times but which have lost sight of the reason for their existence. If a union, as I said, is full of careerists and bosses' stooges then maybe it's time for a change in management. But that is on an individual union basis of course.

 

[rayboyusmc]

When unions were first started, they were needed to protect the worker against flagrant abuse by businesses as a carry over of the feudal serf mentality. Guess what, we are back there today. Corporations have gained more rights as individuals than individuals have.

The problem today is that too many of the unions concern themself with the 1% tirdbirds and not the rest of the good workers. They need to be cleaned out and start over with their original mandate.

And Willow my dear, I was talking about business hiring goons to beat the crap out of the union organizers when they first were getting started.

If we abolish unions, then you can bet your last nickel, (that is all you will have) our wages will go back down and our standard of living will decrease with the exception of those at the top.

OSHA and other safety laws didn't come about because business owners were looking out for the good of the worker.

 

[Diuretic]

Right. The lecturer I referred to made the point that a union's heroes change. When it's about organising the heroes are the organisers who get out there and agitate for union membership. A great film which illustrates that phase is Matewan - Matewan (1987)

When the union is organised and doing well the hero focus changes to the people who can bargain and get the union members a labour contract.

Then the hero focus moves to the those who can continue to churn out the successful labour contracts, always moving forwards.

The decay sets in when the union becomes a self-serving bureaucracy, it exists not for its members but for its office holders. That's time for renewal.

I suspect some of the detractors are seeing the terminal phase of some unions and condemning unionsm because of that. There is a chance at renewal and it should be grasped.

But of course where unions exist simply to support the state economy, as they do in the US, then the terminal phase can be extended. It's then that unions appear irrelevant as has been expressed in this thread.

 

[editec]

It's obvious that BAD unions are BAD.

Just as obvious BAD militaries are BAD; BAD goverments also BAD; BAD corporations BAD, BAD banks are BAD, and on and on and on.

This is basically a big duh!, now isn't it?

Workers unions are a necessary counterbalance to huge corporate power which, left entirely to its own devices exploits workers.

Sadly, in unions as in every other human social endeavor, power corrupts...in unions no less than governments, or corporations or bridge clubs for that matter.

 

[sealybobo]

I heard yesterday that 8% of us are in unions and 60% of us want to be in unions. But we just went through a 25 year smear campaign against the unions.

Notice they aren't just cutting union wages? They say we all make too much. And they aren't just sending union jobs overseas either.

But we stood by and watched them break the unions, one at a time. First the Air Traffic, then the Newspapers, etc.

And so why aren't these companies flourishing after they broke their unions?

Check the Executive salaries.

Its time to wake up America

The sooner you realize you are labor, the sooner we stop the bleeding. And who knows, one day things might even get better.

 

[editec]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

 

[sealybobo]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

I have.

The fact is, US corporations are going to push as much as they think they can get away with, and because they have enough politicians in their pockets, there isn't much government can do to help us either, that is, until we wake up and start screaming, "we're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore".

And right now, we have 30% of our labor force in America arguing against unions, arguing in favor of corporations, outsourcing, hiring illegals, cutting our wages, etc.

And typically these idiots tend to be Republicans.

So expect the American middle class to continue to disappear, until it starts happening to middle class Republicans.

Clearly not a lot of Republicans work for the Big 3.

But maybe some of the 5000 people at IBM who just lost their jobs to India were Republicans. I sure hope so. Because then they'll start to get it.

I have a conservative friend at work who was clueless, until GM started having major problems, and now he gets it. Why? Because his wife works for GM. She's white collar. When she thought her job was safe, she didn't mind the union people getting fucked. Now she's getting fucked, and all of the sudden they get it.

Hurry up Republicans. There might be a point where it is too late, if we haven't already gotten to that point already.

 

[DiveCon]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

its always hilarious when tools call other people tools

 

[Diuretic]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

its always hilarious when tools call other people tools

Yes it is

 

[DiveCon]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

its always hilarious when tools call other people tools

Yes it is

yep
you're one of them

 

[manu1959]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

worked in a printing shop and in construction......why do people feel others need to profit from and negotiate their salary and benifits.....

 

[Diuretic]

its always hilarious when tools call other people tools

Yes it is

yep
you're one of them

Oh so tool AND moron now?

Nice.

 

[Diuretic]

Most of the anti-union tools on this board have never, I am convinced, never actually worked in the private sector.

Who here has ever worked on a factory floor?

I have.

worked in a printing shop and in construction......why do people feel others need to profit from and negotiate their salary and benifits.....

It's efficient for one thing. If you have a bunch of people who have the same basic skill set and are carrying out the same range of duties then it's easier for the employer to negotiate with a rep of the collective, saves you having to negotiate with every individual employee.

 

[DiveCon]

Yes it is

yep
you're one of them

Oh so tool AND moron now?

Nice.

most morons ARE tools

not all

 

[Diuretic]

yep
you're one of them

Oh so tool AND moron now?

Nice.

most morons ARE tools

not all

What's the difference?

 

[DiveCon]

Oh so tool AND moron now?

Nice.

most morons ARE tools

not all

What's the difference?

some morons are too moronic to be useful

take chris/kirk and sealybobo
no one takes them seriously on any political spectrum

 

[Indiana Oracle]

As others have already posted, unions were started as a necessary counterbalance to abusive labor business practices. Labor and workplace-related laws have pretty much taken up that slack in the minds of many people. In that sense it is not surprising that unions have lost currency.

But there remains a segment (shrinking) who still carry around a Marxist mindset on labor issues. What I have observed is that this has been and continues to underlie much of the philosophy of union leadership. Within that context, actively taught in many of our schools, is that business is bad and, basically, should be brought down. Making the whole thing sound like the French or Bolshevik Revolution.

This, in my view, is a complete load. What we need are outsourcing justification laws. Some good posts were made in a string on that topic. Also see good things in what Geithner recently proposed.

Realize this perspective may make me sound like a socialist. Not the case. Man's fallen nature requires that we establish laws to curb his behavior. For the aethists reading this, in principle, that is what the Judeo-Christian religions are about as well, but that is another topic.

Regarding card check specifically, it is a ticket for abuse and could lead to violent social conflict. I must say one thing for The Prophet, though: he is loyal and pays his political debts.

 

[garyd]

Dude I've been in Manufacturing since 1978. I've run turret lathes that are older than most of the people here, and I can program and set up CNC lathes. I make as much or more now than I ever have and while it is tough to get by sometimes with only one salary - the wife does volunteer work - the primary reason for that is the fact that thanks to you lefties there is now a false floor under the labor market and we pay people to sit home and watch TV more than minimum wage. Government programs cause inflation not corporations and small business.

I've worked for some damn fine people and I've worked for some unbelievable ass hats. The former predominate.