Universal Health Care

[editec]

I can go out and buy private insurance for myself...the best plan with a 500 dollar deductible for under 130 dollars a month.

Yeah? Show me that plan.

 

[t_samford]

Please show me where in the constitution it says every american deserves government provided healthcare.

Healthcare is a responsibility not a right.

Thank you very much

 

[Andrew2382]

Yeah? Show me that plan.

Wow, I was off a little

I did one quote for myself from blue cross blue shield

and a 500 dollar deductible

80/20 coinsurance

10 million max

was 176 dollars a month

1500 dollar deductible is 140

very affordable

however if I was a smoker, and 100 pounds overweight it would be double, and SO IT SHOULD BE

 

[editec]

Wow, I was off a little

I did one quote for myself from blue cross blue shield

and a 500 dollar deductible

80/20 coinsurance

10 million max

was 176 dollars a month

1500 dollar deductible is 140

very affordable

however if I was a smoker, and 100 pounds overweight it would be double, and SO IT SHOULD BE

Seriously, I'd like to see that plan.

I might buy into it myself.

 

[t_samford]

Seriously, I'd like to see that plan.

I might buy into it myself.

 

[Bern80]

So according to you, UHC prioritizes people according to need.

Our system prioritizes people according to wealth.

Which is better?

The according to wealth is NOT according to me. It's according to you technically. As I said it was a point made for the sake of argument. In reality are system does not prioritize people based on wealth at all. It is based on a lot of things but wealth really isn't one of them. First the majority of Americans do have some form of health insureance whether paid by their employer or some other means. Secondly the majority of the nation is NOT wealthy and yet the majority by in large are seen by physicians in a timely manor. It really is a red herring to argue from the postion that we prioritze based on wealth.

I made the argument I made to show a flaw in the UHC system in that by defintion it can't be preventative. If you spend all your time treating people that need it most due to the increased demand when will you have time to see the peopel that can wait but would benefit from preventative care?

P.S. it is again noted that you failed completely to address and of the main points of the post.

 

[michiganFats]

Editec, I refer you to my first post in this thread, page 8, #113. You have stated that free market principles have failed us in the health care market. I made the case that we are not currently, nor have we ever, operated under free market principles in that part of our economy. I state again, we as a nation are ready to throw the free market under the bus even though it has never even been given a chance to work.

 

[t_samford]

editec, I Refer You To My First Post In This Thread, Page 8, #113. You Have Stated That Free Market Principles Have Failed Us In The Health Care Market. I Made The Case That We Are Not Currently, Nor Have We Ever, Operated Under Free Market Principles In That Part Of Our Economy. I State Again, We As A Nation Are Ready To Throw The Free Market Under The Bus Even Though It Has Never Even Been Given A Chance To Work.

Universal Healthcare Wont Work And Is A Bunch Of Bull

 

[sealybobo]

Universal Healthcare Wont Work And Is A Bunch Of Bull

No, you have been brainwashed by the GOP and Corporate America through your tv, radio and newspapers. The internet is the only saving grace. The GOP government and corporate America have been gouging us for the last 8 years and lowering our wages, not to mention emptying the treasury.

They've been caught lying about every issue. And one of those issues is healthcare. Soon you will see a party that works for the people fix our healthcare problem. Hillary couldn't do it with Newt's congress obstructing progress, but maybe now Obama will get er done.

Conservatives want to socialize the losses and privatize the profits. That means us tax payers pay so they can make profits.

Sure government beurocracies can end up costing more than they should, but have you seen what has happened to healthcare costs since the GOP took over in 2000? Google it. It went up almost 200%.

And did you see this story the other day? Thank God for the Internet:

One of the nation’s largest health insurers has agreed to pay $50 million in a settlement announced today after being accused of overcharging millions of Americans for health care.

Health insurer accused of overcharging millions - Health care- msnbc.com


I say socialize oil. It isn't a normal business anyways, like car manufacturing where a company makes a product from scratch and then sells it. It is oil companies pumping on government land. If not socialize it, GOUGE the oil companies. Remember we considered imposing a maximum profit that the oil companies could make? Do that! Or charge them more for our oil when the price of oil goes up. So see, this isn't a free market situation, because the oil companies want the government to be regulated so it can't charge based on S&D. Yet the oil companies want to gouge us under "free market" pretences.

Anyways, stop listening to what Corporate America says. They are the problem. Want another example? Sending good paying American jobs to india, mexico and china. That can't be good for us. In fact, it isn't. See the economy?

So healthcare should be fixed. If that means we regulate the industry better, so be it. If it means socializing it, so be it. But the status quo is unacceptable.

 

[sealybobo]

Health insurer accused of overcharging millions - Health care- msnbc.com

PS. If the GOP were in charge, this company wouldn't even be charged for what they did. The Bushy US Federal Prosecutors would have just sat on the facts and not brought charges. That's the difference between Dems and GOP.

 

[editec]

Editec, I refer you to my first post in this thread, page 8, #113. You have stated that free market principles have failed us in the health care market.

What I meant to suggest ( I apparently failed to make my point clear) is that the normal rules of supply demand that generally describe most commodities or services are not in effect in the health care envirnoment.

Doctors, much more than the purchasers of HC, determine the demand for HC. That is the major difference between HC and most things.

Another difference seems to be that the more doctors an area has, the more HC people use but there appears to be no statistically significant benefit for that additional use in the overall morbitity or mortality stats.

I made the case that we are not currently, nor have we ever, operated under free market principles in that part of our economy.

Or in any other that I can think of. The theoretical FREE MARKET that most people seem to think they want does not exist, never did exist and never can exist.

Not for HC and not for anything else, either.

I state again, we as a nation are ready to throw the free market under the bus even though it has never even been given a chance to work.

Okay, I know you think that. Lots and lots of people seem to.

You want a completely free market?

Great then let's get rid of money, and go back to barter. In that environment the FREE MARKET that you want is at least possible.

Otherwise?

What you want is really nothing more than an objectivist libertarians' fairy tale.

 

[Bern80]

What I meant to suggest ( I apparently failed to make my point clear) is that the normal rules of supply demand that generally describe most commodities or services are not in effect in the health care envirnoment.

Doctors, much more than the purchasers of HC, determine the demand for HC. That is the major difference between HC and most things.

Another difference seems to be that the more doctors an area has, the more HC people use but there appears to be no statistically significant benefit for that additional use in the overall morbitity or mortality stats.

This is true to a marginal extent. But really the argument for having UHC is BASED on supply and demand. What you are looking at in terms of supply and demand curve is that equilibrium has not been met. Plenty of people are demanding health care. they are just demanding it at a lower cost then the industry is supplying it at. Stated in economic terms that is the basic argument for UHC, that people would use it if they could afford it, which in turn says that if we adopt UHC and thus price reduced demand will indeed go up.

Or in any other that I can think of. The theoretical FREE MARKET that most people seem to think they want does not exist, never did exist and never can exist.

Not for HC and not for anything else, either.



Okay, I know you think that. Lots and lots of people seem to.

You want a completely free market?

Great then let's get rid of money, and go back to barter. In that environment the FREE MARKET that you want is at least possible.

Otherwise?

What you want is really nothing more than an objectivist libertarians' fairy tale.

Since when is a lack of a medium of exchange a defining characteristic of a free market? This is a completely faulty premise ed.

 

[michiganFats]

Bern, Thank You for taking care of my light work

 

[Chris]

The according to wealth is NOT according to me. It's according to you technically. As I said it was a point made for the sake of argument. In reality are system does not prioritize people based on wealth at all. It is based on a lot of things but wealth really isn't one of them. First the majority of Americans do have some form of health insureance whether paid by their employer or some other means. Secondly the majority of the nation is NOT wealthy and yet the majority by in large are seen by physicians in a timely manor. It really is a red herring to argue from the postion that we prioritze based on wealth.

I made the argument I made to show a flaw in the UHC system in that by defintion it can't be preventative. If you spend all your time treating people that need it most due to the increased demand when will you have time to see the peopel that can wait but would benefit from preventative care?

P.S. it is again noted that you failed completely to address and of the main points of the post.

You really live in a fantasy world. A lot of people can't afford health insurance. When people get sick and can't work, they especially can't afford health insurance.

A UHC system can't be preventative? That's absurd. It is much more preventative than our for profit system, because people won't have to forgo treatment because they can't afford insurance.

So yes, we totally prioritize our system based on wealth. That is why our system is TWICE AS EXPENSIVE per capita as every other Western democracy. Greed is the very basis of our healthcare system.

 

[Chris]

Universal Healthcare Wont Work And Is A Bunch Of Bull

We already have universal healthcare, just a really, really bad version of it. Everyone can be treated in the emergency room. We don't let people bleed to death on the street here. Not yet, anyway. So the rich get great healthcare, and the poor get no healthcare until they are at death's door. Does that sound like a good way to run a society? No, it doesn't. The ironic thing is that every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because they don't have to pay liability lawyers, insurance companies, and Big Pharma. There are inherent cost savings with a single payer system. The Germans have had one since 1886!

With a single payer system you would still pick your doctor, and your doctor would still own his practice. There would just be one insurance company, and that would be the government.

 

[michiganFats]

Here's an experiment for anyone who cares to try. Next time you go to your doctor, ask your doctor what the procedure/service you just received would cost if you had payed cash, and then ask him/her how much the HC provider is going to pay for the procedure/service. Then ask why. You will then know exactly what is wrong.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Here's an experiment for anyone who cares to try. Next time you go to your doctor, ask your doctor what the procedure/service you just received would cost if you had payed cash, and then ask him/her how much the HC provider is going to pay for the procedure/service. Then ask why. You will then know exactly what is wrong.

speak English please. what are you trying to say?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

We already have universal healthcare, just a really, really bad version of it. Everyone can be treated in the emergency room. We don't let people bleed to death on the street here. Not yet, anyway. So the rich get great healthcare, and the poor get no healthcare until they are at death's door. Does that sound like a good way to run a society? No, it doesn't. The ironic thing is that every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because they don't have to pay liability lawyers, insurance companies, and Big Pharma. There are inherent cost savings with a single payer system. The Germans have had one since 1886!

With a single payer system you would still pick your doctor, and your doctor would still own his practice. There would just be one insurance company, and that would be the government.

Chris' (kirk's) big pharma boogy man rears it's ugly head.

Chris believes we can get rid of the big bad drug companies and little Brazilian witch doctors in the rain forest will cure us all of everything....at a minimal cost .


does every western democracy really have a single payer system and do they all pay half of what we pay?

fact check please?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Five Capitalist Democracies & How They Do It.

 

[michiganFats]

DevNell, Here it is in English. The health care providers in this country are bidding for doctor exclusivity. They pay no attention whatsoever to the real cost of any procedure. Doctors who want to be paid by the HC providers have to submit an invoice requesting that they be paid according to the fee schedule of the HC provider. A $50 X-ray becomes a $175 X-ray because if the doctor submits a request for anything less, regardless of what he would charge a customer who is paying cash, he will not be paid. If you don't believe me, ask your doctor. When you have HC providers deliberately overpaying doctors in order to get the doctor to freeze out other HC providers from their practices, maybe that explains why costs are high? And as I have already pointed out in this thread, there is no real consumer choice when it comes to obtaining health coverage in this nation. I honestly believe that if we change those two practices, we will see costs come down and we will see more diversity in the plans offered.