US high school allows Muslims time for prayer if they earn good grades

[Quantum Windbag]

Praying and proselytizing are not the same thing...

proselytize "to encourage or induce people to join a religious movement, political party or other cause or organization; To convert (someone)

One is allowed in school, the other is not.

private, silent prayer is OK for Christians, i.e. as long as no one knows you are doing it. But no open prayer to start the day, no pledge of allegiance, but a prayer room and time for muslims???????????????? have we totally lost our mind with this "don't offend any muslims" bullshit?

This is a local school, locally governed, making a local decision. Do you want the big central government to come in and crush them?

It is a Washington DC school, which means that the school is actually governed by the federal government.

Want to try again?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Praying and proselytizing are not the same thing...

proselytize "to encourage or induce people to join a religious movement, political party or other cause or organization; To convert (someone)

One is allowed in school, the other is not.

private, silent prayer is OK for Christians, i.e. as long as no one knows you are doing it. But no open prayer to start the day, no pledge of allegiance, but a prayer room and time for muslims???????????????? have we totally lost our mind with this "don't offend any muslims" bullshit?

Cite from the official dogma of any Christian denomination where the adherent is compelled to engage in public, vocalized prayer, and where failure to do so constitutes a violation by the adherent of the tenets of his faith.

Cite a single religion that has official dogma.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Where did you ever get the stupid idea that Christians are only required to pray on Sundays?

You could've write (WRONG idea) ,, rather than stupid

It is nice to be nice , right?

Stupid is more accurate, and flowery, than wrong.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Conservative Christians should be happy about this. The courts will never allow this to only apply to Muslims, so if it stands up to a court challenge,

it will stand up for all religions.

It won't stand up, which makes your argument even dumber than usual.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what is ME ??

Middle East.

Yes Middle East ,,

But the Churches have been already built in the Middle East and nothing bad happened !
see this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Council_of_Churches


and see this picture:

akhbaralarab.net/images/stories/cities/orthodox%20church%20and%20hariri%20mosque.jpg

What about this?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Where's the part where the Christians have been denied the right to pray?

Better question, where is the part where atheists have been allowed a chance to leave the classroom for an equal amount of time.

As the saying goes, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Is there another saying that involves teaching an idiot how to think?

Legally, atheism is a religion under the 1st Amendment. That means that the government actually has to demonstrate a secular reason to treat you any different than they treat me, or a Muslim.

What secular argument is there for allowing Muslims to leave a classroom for prayer that would justify not allowing atheists to leave a classroom to think? Unless you can actually articulate an argument that relies on nothing more than a secular defense of this you are defending preferential treatment based on religion.

I won't hold my breath.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Any public school must accommodate religious needs, just not endorse them.

There is no issue here.

Public schools have to allow children to leave the classroom because their religion esquires it? When did that start? Why doesn't it apply to students with bad grades?

You screwed the pooch big time here Jake, come back and pretend you always supported equal treatment under the law by demanding that schools stop giving some groups special treatment if they earn it.

I earned a whole half day off every day of my last semester of high school because of all the credits I already had.

The question would be, if the school isn't required to give prayer time at ALL,

can they choose to make it a merit based privilege?

I'm now undecided.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? I am 100% positive your school did not predicate your half day off on you going to church. these kids can only leave if they say they are going to pray.

Seriously, asshole, you cannot defend this, stop trying.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

US high school allows Muslims time for prayer if they earn good grades ? RT USA

yet , they ban kids from Christian prayer . tell them to a moment of silence instead..

In Texas any child can pray any time as long as (1) he does not disrupt his neighbor and (2) does not disrupt the educational process.

I would be remiss if I did not point out that leaving the classroom clearly disrupts the education process.

Fakey Jake thinks we are upset about this because we hate Muslims, the idea that this actually offends me as a human being is foreign to him. Imagine allowing kids to walk out of the class during a test just because say they they want to pray, and then allowing them to finish the test after googling the answers.

 

[FA_Q2]

Any public school must accommodate religious needs, just not endorse them.

There is no issue here.

Public schools have to allow children to leave the classroom because their religion esquires it? When did that start? Why doesn't it apply to students with bad grades?

You screwed the pooch big time here Jake, come back and pretend you always supported equal treatment under the law by demanding that schools stop giving some groups special treatment if they earn it.

I earned a whole half day off every day of my last semester of high school because of all the credits I already had.

The question would be, if the school isn't required to give prayer time at ALL,

can they choose to make it a merit based privilege?

I'm now undecided.

It is unconstitutional still. If they are accommodating religions then they cannot make it merit based but if they are not accommodating religion then they are only giving that perk to those of a particular religion. It is all garbage. If they wanted to make this concession, they should have simply added a ten minute break in the middle of the day and that is when the students could pray.

As it stands, they are singling out a single religious faith and publicly making concessions based on grades. There are so many things wrong with that policy.

 

[Flopper]

US high school allows Muslims time for prayer if they earn good grades ? RT USA

yet , they ban kids from Christian prayer . tell them to a moment of silence instead..

Legally, anyone is allowed to pray in school in the US, as long as the prayers are not officially sponsored by the school and do not disrupt others. Students of any faith can pray in school, no matter what the general public thinks. School administration cannot lead prayers or mandate that students attend prayer. Students of any religion can gather together and pray as long as it's not sponsor by the administration.

The rub is of course Muslims do pray in school and Christians rarely do.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Better question, where is the part where atheists have been allowed a chance to leave the classroom for an equal amount of time.

As the saying goes, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Is there another saying that involves teaching an idiot how to think?

Legally, atheism is a religion under the 1st Amendment. That means that the government actually has to demonstrate a secular reason to treat you any different than they treat me, or a Muslim.

What secular argument is there for allowing Muslims to leave a classroom for prayer that would justify not allowing atheists to leave a classroom to think? Unless you can actually articulate an argument that relies on nothing more than a secular defense of this you are defending preferential treatment based on religion.

I won't hold my breath.

Legally, you’re wrong, as atheism is not ‘religion.’

An atheist could make no Free Exercise Clause violation complaint because he would have no standing in court as an atheist; since atheism is not a religion, no religious tenet, practice, or ritual has been disallowed, infringed upon, or violated by the state. Any such suit would be dismissed accordingly.

You’re obviously confusing Free Exercise Clause jurisprudence with that of Establishment Clause jurisprudence, where the latter applies to atheists when government attempts to conjoin church and state to compel religious practice.

In these cases an atheist has standing because the state is seeking to force religion upon a citizen where religion is clearly absent, and the individual’s right to be free from religion violated.

 

[Plasmaball]

Better question, where is the part where atheists have been allowed a chance to leave the classroom for an equal amount of time.

As the saying goes, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Is there another saying that involves teaching an idiot how to think?

Legally, atheism is a religion under the 1st Amendment. That means that the government actually has to demonstrate a secular reason to treat you any different than they treat me, or a Muslim.

What secular argument is there for allowing Muslims to leave a classroom for prayer that would justify not allowing atheists to leave a classroom to think? Unless you can actually articulate an argument that relies on nothing more than a secular defense of this you are defending preferential treatment based on religion.

I won't hold my breath.

Please link to where it is cited that atheism is a legal Religion.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You screwed the pooch big time here Jake, come back and pretend you always supported equal treatment under the law by demanding that schools stop giving some groups special treatment if they earn it.

I said equal accommodation is part of the law. Public schools cannot endorse religion is the point you are missing. The Christian kids have always had the legal right to be able to pray in schools without interference as long as they did not coerce their neighbors and disrupt the educational process.

You need to concentrate on the points, friend, and stop trolling.

 

[Flopper]

As the saying goes, atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Is there another saying that involves teaching an idiot how to think?

Legally, atheism is a religion under the 1st Amendment. That means that the government actually has to demonstrate a secular reason to treat you any different than they treat me, or a Muslim.

What secular argument is there for allowing Muslims to leave a classroom for prayer that would justify not allowing atheists to leave a classroom to think? Unless you can actually articulate an argument that relies on nothing more than a secular defense of this you are defending preferential treatment based on religion.

I won't hold my breath.

Please link to where it is cited that atheism is a legal Religion.

Atheism is definitely not a religion. It certainly does not fit the most common definition, the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods. To say atheism is a religion would be like saying a creationist is an evolutionist or non-believer is a believer. The statement makes no sense.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Atheism, since it cannot be validated empirically or philosophically, operates on faith, like religion.

I think that is the thrust of QWB's argument.

 

[Truthseeker420]

US high school allows Muslims time for prayer if they earn good grades ? RT USA

yet , they ban kids from Christian prayer . tell them to a moment of silence instead..

I agree if this is a public school.

 

[Indofred]

What a stupid non issue.
Over here, all groups are allowed to pray as required and there are no issues.

It only becomes a problem if you make it into one.

why do you post on a american politics board find your own .

What - freedom unless you don't think I'm allowed freedom.
Very nice.

 

[Michelle420]

US high school allows Muslims time for prayer if they earn good grades ? RT USA

yet , they ban kids from Christian prayer . tell them to a moment of silence instead..

Where's the part where the Christians have been denied the right to pray?

The move has already upset several of the school's Christian staffers, many of whom remember when the school was a Christian institution. US public schools are secular by law, but are legally allowed to accommodate religious students

Legally, anyone is allowed to pray in school in the US, as long as the prayers are not officially sponsored by the school and do not disrupt others.

The article doesn't really say christians were denied.

 

[OriginalShroom]

Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says Court

Atheism Is Protected As a Religion, says CourtFor the purposes of protection under the First Amendment, the U.S. Court ofAppeals for the Second Circuit (May 13, 1997), decided the Orange County N.Y.Department of Probation could not force Robert Warner, an atheist, to attendreligion-based alcoholic treatment programs against the dictates of his ownbeliefs.

"The district court agreed with Mr. Warner's argument that these meetings involveda substantial religious element. Participants were told to "believe that a Powergreater than ourselves could restore us," and that they must "turn our will andour lives over to the care of God as we understand him." In addition, the "Step"program ordered those participating to "Admit to God ... the exact nature of ourwrongs," be "entirely ready to have God remove all these defects ... (and) ask Himto remove our shortcomings," and to seek "through prayer and meditation to improveour conscious contact with God, as we (understand) Him. The meetings were alsopunctuated with frequent prayers of a Christian nature.

"Four months into the program Mr. Warner complained that, as an Atheist, he foundthe meetings objectionable due to their religious nature. It was then that hisprobation officer determined that Warner lacked sufficient commitment to the ideaof learning the techniques of remaining sober, even though he apparently had notbeen found in violation of his probation orders to remain sober!

"Attorneys for Mr. Warner relied on a number of legal precedents, including:"[refer to link] http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/alanon1.htm

Atheist Groups in Prison
But two years earlier,in the case of Kaufman v. McCaughtry, the 7th Circuit Courtof Appeals declared atheism a religion for purposes of protection under theEstablishment Clause. The court said prison officials violated an inmate's rightsbecause they did not treat atheism as a religion.

"James Kaufman filed suit while incarcerated at the Waupun CorrectionalInstitution after submitting an official document titled "Request for NewReligious Practices." He asked permission to form an inmate group "to stimulateand promote Freedom of Thought, and inquiry concerning religious beliefs, creeds,dogmas, tenets, rituals and practices, (and to) educate and provide informationconcerning religious beliefs, creeds, dogmas, tenets, rituals, and practices."http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm

Court Made Good and Bad Decisions, says Atheist Blogger
An atheist blogger saw a good side and a bad side to this ruling. "What theSeventh Circuit Court of Appeals got right:" said Matt Dillahunty, was that"atheism is a 'religion' for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat differentquestion than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regulardevotional services, or have a sacred Scripture.

"What court got wrong, Dillahunty said, is that "Atheism is, among other things, aschool of thought that takes a position on religion, the existence and importanceof a supreme being, and a code of ethics.

"The Court in this case recognized that unless the prison system had prevented allgatherings of religion, preventing a group of atheists to gather was a violationof the Establishment Clause."Tthey didn't declare that atheism was a religion, they declared that atheism wasafforded equal protection with religions under the Establishment Clause." [italicsadded]

;;;;;;;;;;;;

Torcaso v. Watkins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It has occasionally been argued that the Supreme Court, in Torcaso v Watkins, "found" Secular Humanism to be a religion. This assertion is based on a reference, by Justice Black, in a footnote (number 11) to the court's finding, to court cases where organized groups of self-identified Humanists, or Ethicists, meeting on a regular basis to share and celebrate their beliefs, have been granted religious-based tax exemptions. [2]

Justice Black's use of the term "secular humanism" in his footnote has been seized upon by some religious groups, such as those supporting causes such as teaching creationism in schools, as a "finding" that any secular or science-based activity is, in fact, religion.[3][4] [5]

However, such attempts to conflate non-religious, secular or scientific ideas and activities with religion have been explicitly rejected by subsequent courts, most notably Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, where U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and that the school district's promotion of it therefore violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (see Intelligent Design).[6] In fact, prior to its use by Justice Black, the term "Secular Humanism" had never before been used in any court case, and it is unclear why Justice Black used the term in this instance, other than to perhaps emphasize the groups' non-belief in any divine force.

 

[Indofred]

Almost a decade ago, New York City School System set a room aside specifically for Muslims to pray in.

It was the wash basin for them to wash their feet in and school supplied towels.

The Schools were required to set the student's class schedule around the prayer times.

At the same time they were forbidding Christian and Jewish teachers from wearing Crosses or Stars of David.

Nice claim so prove it with links to quality sites.

As for prayers; before you argue, you must have facts.

I understand school hours are usually 8 until 3.
The only prayer time here is at about 1pm and that takes about 5 to 10 minutes.
It's acceptable to pray outside the set time if there is difficulty.

What time is lunch break?

As I said - a created issue designed to cause problems where none exist.