US is not ready for Medicare for all

[Harpy Eagle]

why not? If someone freely chooses not to carry health insurance why should we have to pay for their choice?

Let 'em rot in the street! Fuck 'em!

After all, this is the Old West, every man fer himself!

It is one of those oddities....the same people that do not want to be forced to do things have no issue with the government forcing doctors and hospitals to provide care despite lack of ability to be compensated for their service and products by the one being treated.

Yup. It's a waste of time trying to pierce the bubble.

Ask them how Medicare works, they launch into talk radio platitudes. Ask them how the Meltdown happened, they launch into talk radio platitudes.

They. Just. Don't. Know.

It's kind of funny, but more than that, it's dangerous.
.

There is a part of me that looks forward to Trump introducing it as "Trump care" and watching all of these people that are dead set against it all of a sudden support it like they have been in favor of it their whole life.

It depends on what his plans are if he even has any.

If people want government care, go to your post office sometime and ask if that's the way you want to be treated for your illnesses. Try calling city hall in any major city and see how long it takes for you to report a light bulb broken in a traffic light. Then see how long it takes them to repair it. Ask anybody who went on SS disability, and how long it took them, and what kind of costs and fight they had to put up to get it, if they were not totally rejected.

It will not matter what his "plan" is, all he has to do is say it is his plan and 75% of you Trump worshipers will go "yes....that is the greatest thing ever".

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

US is not ready for Medicare for all.
Democrats, do not over play your hand when you are running against the worst President in our history.
US voters favor a hybrid system that includes a government that anyone can buy into along with a private option.
Do not let ideaology override practicality.

A majority of the ameican people support it, capital is not ready for all of us to have access to healthcare.

A majority of American people would also like their debt erased.

Medicare for all would help, what's the #1 reason for most mortgage foreclosures again?

I have conservative friends in Australia, Canada, UK and other nations that have universal healthcare and the majority like it.
But I feel it would be much better to ease into it rather than make an all or nothing program at one time.. An expanded Medicare program for those who want it and a private plan for those who want that. From the learning of the hybrid program, changes can be planned.

We can agree here.

Unsure of whether the government will let me work year after year, when they made their most intrusive changes, I was worried if they would let me work or not. Planning ahead, I called Social Security to ask them about disability.

Long story short, the women I spoke with told me that if I got on disability, in a year, I could be accepted for Medicare. Now, it's not free, you would still have to pay for it, but the plans are like 150 bucks a month to 300 depending on what level of coverage you could afford.

So why only limit that to people on disability?

We could look into a government/ private insurance solution. After all, the reason insurance rates are so high is because those of us who have preexisting conditions. My idea is to allow people with preexisting conditions the ability to go on Medicare like those on disability, and that would remove all the high-risk patients from the private insurance pool.

That would greatly lower the rates for those who want private insurance, and give coverage to those like myself who have preexisting conditions with affordable coverage.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

US is not ready for Medicare for all.
Democrats, do not over play your hand when you are running against the worst President in our history.
US voters favor a hybrid system that includes a government that anyone can buy into along with a private option.
Do not let ideaology override practicality.

A majority of the ameican people support it, capital is not ready for all of us to have access to healthcare.

A majority of American people would also like their debt erased.

Medicare for all would help, what's the #1 reason for most mortgage foreclosures again?

The number one reason for mortgage foreclosures is death of a wage earning spouse.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

What happens when, say, 10 years from now, government has enacted Medicare for all, many private insurance companies have had to close their doors and access to private insurance is no longer an option, or at least an affordable option.

Now, the government has you in its clutches and you have nowhere to go. Government realizes that the current income will not support the system, so now they have to start raising taxes every year to pay for it.

Oh, and that promise that, once you're on MFA that there will be no more copays, no more prescription costs and medical treatment will be free, that will go away once they realize the cost is going to be MUCH higher than they anticipated, and people are going to the doctor for every little ache and pain.

It wont be long before they start saying "well, looks like we will need to start charging a copay after all, aaaaaaand.....were going to need you to chip in about 30% of the cost of your prescriptions.....aaaaaaaand.....were going to have to raise your taxes by another $500 next year to help cover costs..."

And now....you have nowhere to go, because all your old insurance companies are gone.

I've heard people say "it will be cheaper because we won't have to pay some ceo 15 million a year".....really?? You think government run health care wont have its share of people siphoning from the system? Instead of a ceo being paid 15 million a year, you'll have politicians raiding the fund for 15 million per year.

Government has never been the bastion of efficiency. Government is wasteful and spendy, and there is never a pool of money yet that the government cant leave alone. They see money setting somewhere, they have to spend it. The same will happen with this Medicare for all taxation money.

Please see the map of the world below. The vast majority of the world has universal healthcare or free healthcare. If they can do it, we can do it.

Many of those countries are a fraction of the size of the u.s., plus, all the money they tax from their citizens stays in the country. They are not shipping hundreds of billions to every other country across the globe.

On top of that, while those countries have free healthcare, how many of then are happy with that system? How many can get the level of treatment they want, and don't have to wait 6 months to see a doctor?

How many of those countries are under a dictatorships or socialist government, and their citizens have no choice but to be in the government run program.

Many of these countries cut costs by killing the sick.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Let 'em rot in the street! Fuck 'em!

After all, this is the Old West, every man fer himself!

It is one of those oddities....the same people that do not want to be forced to do things have no issue with the government forcing doctors and hospitals to provide care despite lack of ability to be compensated for their service and products by the one being treated.

Yup. It's a waste of time trying to pierce the bubble.

Ask them how Medicare works, they launch into talk radio platitudes. Ask them how the Meltdown happened, they launch into talk radio platitudes.

They. Just. Don't. Know.

It's kind of funny, but more than that, it's dangerous.
.

There is a part of me that looks forward to Trump introducing it as "Trump care" and watching all of these people that are dead set against it all of a sudden support it like they have been in favor of it their whole life.

It depends on what his plans are if he even has any.

If people want government care, go to your post office sometime and ask if that's the way you want to be treated for your illnesses. Try calling city hall in any major city and see how long it takes for you to report a light bulb broken in a traffic light. Then see how long it takes them to repair it. Ask anybody who went on SS disability, and how long it took them, and what kind of costs and fight they had to put up to get it, if they were not totally rejected.

It will not matter what his "plan" is, all he has to do is say it is his plan and 75% of you Trump worshipers will go "yes....that is the greatest thing ever".

You mean like we did by early release of prisoners, or the Kurds, or caving into border wall money????

You are brainwashed if you think we all agree on anything and everything Trump. Either that or you're watching too much CNN.

Look.......I do have problems with government healthcare, but if that's what people want, then so be it. My only concern is how it's paid for, because Democrats can't take a shit in the morning without turning it into politics.

Want government healthcare that I can accept? Fine, let's fund it with a consumption tax. We all pay. The more you purchase, the more you pay. That way there is no vote buying like every other policy the Democrats make.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

worst President in our history.

By nearly any measurable standard you are FULL OF SHIT.

Now if you were to say that he hurt your feelings more than any president in our lifetime I could believe you since your kind seems to be such pussy whipped bitches

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It depends on what his plans are if he even has any.

If people want government care, go to your post office sometime and ask if that's the way you want to be treated for your illnesses. Try calling city hall in any major city and see how long it takes for you to report a light bulb broken in a traffic light. Then see how long it takes them to repair it. Ask anybody who went on SS disability, and how long it took them, and what kind of costs and fight they had to put up to get it, if they were not totally rejected.

Shit....Just go to the VA.

Golfing Gomer is less of a libertarian than booze hound Bill Weld.

My father uses the VA, but he would never be treated there. He only goes for his many prescriptions. He doesn't have any great things to say about the system outside of that.

 

[BrokeLoser]

US is not ready for Medicare for all.
Democrats, do not over play your hand when you are running against the worst President in our history.
US voters favor a hybrid system that includes a government that anyone can buy into along with a private option.
Do not let ideaology override practicality.

Haha...too late...your party already fucked up big time and told Americans they will FORCE us to provide free healthcare for Mexico..hahaha...you dumbmotherfuckers

 

[Harpy Eagle]

You mean like we did by early release of prisoners, or the Kurds, or caving into border wall money????

You are brainwashed if you think we all agree on anything and everything Trump. Either that or you're watching too much CNN.

Yes, just like that. Even on this forum the vast majority of the Trump worshipers had no problems with any of those things, especially the Kurds

Look.......I do have problems with government healthcare, but if that's what people want, then so be it. My only concern is how it's paid for, because Democrats can't take a shit in the morning without turning it into politics.

Want government healthcare that I can accept? Fine, let's fund it with a consumption tax. We all pay. The more you purchase, the more you pay. That way there is no vote buying like every other policy the Democrats make.

Sadly, I do agree it is what we are heading towards. I have lots of problems with it, more from my time in the Crops dealing with Navy doctors and such than the VA.

 

[basquebromance]

we need to make everyone equally poor. i believe americans are ready for that!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What happens when, say, 10 years from now, government has enacted Medicare for all, many private insurance companies have had to close their doors and access to private insurance is no longer an option, or at least an affordable option.

Now, the government has you in its clutches and you have nowhere to go. Government realizes that the current income will not support the system, so now they have to start raising taxes every year to pay for it.

Oh, and that promise that, once you're on MFA that there will be no more copays, no more prescription costs and medical treatment will be free, that will go away once they realize the cost is going to be MUCH higher than they anticipated, and people are going to the doctor for every little ache and pain.

It wont be long before they start saying "well, looks like we will need to start charging a copay after all, aaaaaaand.....were going to need you to chip in about 30% of the cost of your prescriptions.....aaaaaaaand.....were going to have to raise your taxes by another $500 next year to help cover costs..."

And now....you have nowhere to go, because all your old insurance companies are gone.

I've heard people say "it will be cheaper because we won't have to pay some ceo 15 million a year".....really?? You think government run health care wont have its share of people siphoning from the system? Instead of a ceo being paid 15 million a year, you'll have politicians raiding the fund for 15 million per year.

Government has never been the bastion of efficiency. Government is wasteful and spendy, and there is never a pool of money yet that the government cant leave alone. They see money setting somewhere, they have to spend it. The same will happen with this Medicare for all taxation money.

We know for sure a government administered health care system will have much less overhead, because Medicare and VA hospitals already do have less then a forth of the over head cost of private health insurance companies.
You simply are easily proven wrong by the low administration costs of Medicare since its beginning in 1965.

It is not just that Medicare has much lower administration costs, but that private health insurance companies deliberately encourage providers to inflate their charges, because that increases the number of customers who can no longer afford health care without having insurance.
Collective bargaining over health care costs can easily reduce them by more than half.

What you have to remember is that what caused the current private health care insurance system was for employers to illegally be granted an income tax exemption for employee benefits. All benefits should always have been taxed, and the government should not have encouraged the wealthy to be able to get employer benefits tax exemptions, because the poor do not get them, and that caused the poor to subsidize the wealthy.

How many people are enrolled in medicare and the v.a.? About 55 million in medicare and about 9 million a year use the v.a. services?

Let's say medicare for all becomes the only affordable option, and you have over 280 million people enrolled in it, you'll see that overhead rise very quickly.

The only reason Medicare and Medicaid survive is because of private pay and private insurance.

Providers often have to accept underpayment for government patients. They recoup those losses on private pay and private insurance by raising rates on everybody. That's why when a medical facility closes down, it's usually in poorer areas where most of the clientele are on government programs. There is no place to recoup the lost money.

So then Democrats get in charge and it's Medicare for all. Okay.....fine.....but where are facilities supposed to recoup their losses from now?

The truth is they can't. So they either close down, or government has to start paying their fair share for all of their government patients which would then be everybody in the country. It would be totally unaffordable.

but if health care was a 'widget' being sold, the increase in patients, (sales) would reduce the price of the widget's costs and then reduce the price at retail...

if more medical procedures are done... lets say a hospital does 1000 MRI's a year and then let's say1000 more people a year get an MRI at a hospital than previous years because more people have health care coverage with a universal plan for all... the cost of that MRI per person, should be reduced...

because the MRI machine cost them X amt of money, of which they are paying off the loan for.... with doubling the MRI's done in a year.... they can lower the price per person and still pay off the fixed cost of the loan each year and still make their profit... same with all other specialty medical machines, like ones for mammograms, xrays, CT Scans, etc etc etc,.... and buying supplies...like gauze, aspirin, sutures, scissors, scalpels, bed sheets etc etc etc.... all cheaper because they can get a bulk discount from manufacturers... the larger the order, the cheaper the price....

so, if health care operates like any other retail widget, the increase in patients, (buying customers) that most are fearing of hurting the system, would be like increasing the number of units sold at retail, which would bring their prorated overhead and supply costs, and medical equipment costs down....?

it seems like it could work in that manner... if it were like retail....

but that would leave us with needing more workers in the medical field... and for a short time that could be a problem, but we could address this near immediately by pushing college kids in to the medical field.... jobs jobs jobs....

PLEASE don't get me wrong on this, I am not supporting medicare for all... I was just thinking out loud on it....

First off, no medical facility takes a loan out for an MRI machine. They pay with a check the moment they buy it. Our real costs are in malpractice insurance.

When I was a teen and perhaps in my 20's, I could go to the doctor for a sore throat. The doctor would check me out, perhaps prescribe some medications, or introduce me to treatments, and off I went.

Today, your family doctor is more or less a referral agency. Unless it's a cold or flu, or something like that, any other ailment, they ship you to a specialist. The specialist sends you to another specialists, and then they put you through a ton of testing.

They are all shifting the liability of the patent to other doctors. A family doctor can no longer treat all ailments. They can do the basics, but that's about it.

Paying two, three, five doctors for treatment that one doctor used to take care of costs a hell of a lot of money. That gets billed to your insurance, and up go the rates.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

It depends on what his plans are if he even has any.

If people want government care, go to your post office sometime and ask if that's the way you want to be treated for your illnesses. Try calling city hall in any major city and see how long it takes for you to report a light bulb broken in a traffic light. Then see how long it takes them to repair it. Ask anybody who went on SS disability, and how long it took them, and what kind of costs and fight they had to put up to get it, if they were not totally rejected.

Shit....Just go to the VA.

Golfing Gomer is less of a libertarian than booze hound Bill Weld.

My father uses the VA, but he would never be treated there. He only goes for his many prescriptions. He doesn't have any great things to say about the system outside of that.

The VA is hit or miss, mostly because each one is ran independently for the most part, though Trump is trying to fix some of that.

There are some amazing VA medical facilitates and some that are pretty shitty and most are in the middle.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes, just like that. Even on this forum the vast majority of the Trump worshipers had no problems with any of those things, especially the Kurds

I see it as pretty mixed. I don't know what you're reading. But without a doubt, you don't have 100% consensus on what's going on with the Kurds. But let's turn that around.......

For many years, the Democrats have bitched about us being involved with anything Middle-east. They constantly told us we should not be involved with wars for oil companies. Now that it's Trump actually meeting their demand, they are running around USMB criticizing Trump because he let our allies down.

It works both ways you know.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It depends on what his plans are if he even has any.

If people want government care, go to your post office sometime and ask if that's the way you want to be treated for your illnesses. Try calling city hall in any major city and see how long it takes for you to report a light bulb broken in a traffic light. Then see how long it takes them to repair it. Ask anybody who went on SS disability, and how long it took them, and what kind of costs and fight they had to put up to get it, if they were not totally rejected.

Shit....Just go to the VA.

Golfing Gomer is less of a libertarian than booze hound Bill Weld.

My father uses the VA, but he would never be treated there. He only goes for his many prescriptions. He doesn't have any great things to say about the system outside of that.

The VA is hit or miss, mostly because each one is ran independently for the most part, though Trump is trying to fix some of that.

There are some amazing VA medical facilitates and some that are pretty shitty and most are in the middle.

Okay, so then it's like our private medical care system we have now: some are great, some are average, and some you wouldn't have your dog treated at.

I worked for a company who's main customer was the VA. When it was discovered the Director was on the take, our company was one of the payers. When it hit the MSM, they immediately stopped 80% of our work, and I lost my job. The Director was eventually fired and I don't know what happened to him after that.

But for people who can't afford anything but the VA, they are stuck regardless how good or bad the facility is. It's not like that with private insurance. If you are dissatisfied with a diagnosis or treatment, you can go to another facility like my father does.

For instance, a VA doctor prescribed some medication for him. Unsure of what that doctor prescribed, he took it to the Cleveland Clinic doctor where he gets his care. The Clinic doctor told him that medication would kill him with his conditions. When my father went back to the VA and told the doctor what his Clinic doctor said, he didn't even try to put up an argument. He just prescribed what the Clinic doctor advised.

 

[basquebromance]

"medicare for all is a joke. i know people in Cuba who die from an illness that is easily treatable in america" - Little Marco Rubio, son of Cuban immigrants

 

[Care4all]

They are all shifting the liability of the patent to other doctors. A family doctor can no longer treat all ailments. They can do the basics, but that's about it.

it is the complete opposite up where I live in Maine.... your Primary care physician does everything, they are jack of all trades...

Mainly because we just do not have enough doctors up here, near no specialists.... the Doc couldn't peddle us off to another doctor if they wanted to...

My Doc is a jack of all trades, she is my Gyno, she does the exam and pap smear, she removes my suspicious skin cancer spots instead of a Dermatologist, she does everything....Doctors in Maine even have to pull dangerously infected teeth and are trained in such now, because we don't have enough Dentists either.... they are truly the family Doc, of yesteryear.

When I was in Massachusetts and in Florida, it was just as you said...

As far as malpractice insurance..... the AMA has caused this problem because they do not get rid of or take the repeated bad doctor's license away... I was researching this a few years back, and if memory serves it was something like 1 to 3% of the Doctors out there, are responsible for 80% of the mal practice suits.... all the other good doctors are having to pay high malpractice insurance costs, to pay for the repeated mistakes of a handful of doctors...

 

[Wyatt earp]

Was just reading a left wing think tank is putting the $$$ at 34 trillion dollars ...



.

 

[dblack]

It would be helpful to the conversation if the Democrats hadn't dishonestly named Single Payer "Medicare for All".

The overall Medicare system includes choice, free market competition, and free market innovation via Medicare Advantage plans and Medicare Supplements. The "Medicare for All" plan being pushed by most of the Democrats does not.

It's difficult to have an important conversation like this when we're starting off with intellectual dishonesty.
.

Love the euphemistic "includes choice, free market competition, and free market innovation". Orwell notwithstanding, the Medicare model is the opposite of a free market. It's a feeding trough for well-connected corporations.

 

[Care4all]

Was just reading a left wing think tank is putting the $$$ at 34 trillion dollars ...



.

but was it $34 trillion for 10 years without taking in to consideration that if there were Universal Health Care for everyone, then they would need no MEDICAID, need no CHIPS, need no VA, need no Obamacare, need no govt employee heathcare or separate health care for the Military and families, or take out the cost of the tax deductions we give employer's for the benefit, that we ARE spending a lot of money on now. Is their estimate saying this is an additional 34 trillion, or did they minus out what we are spending right now on all of these different health care programs?

 

[ElmerMudd]

Let 'em rot in the street! Fuck 'em!

After all, this is the Old West, every man fer himself!

It is one of those oddities....the same people that do not want to be forced to do things have no issue with the government forcing doctors and hospitals to provide care despite lack of ability to be compensated for their service and products by the one being treated.

Yup. It's a waste of time trying to pierce the bubble.

Ask them how Medicare works, they launch into talk radio platitudes. Ask them how the Meltdown happened, they launch into talk radio platitudes.

They. Just. Don't. Know.

It's kind of funny, but more than that, it's dangerous.
.

Medicare "works" by coercion, confiscation, and redistribution...All of its "choices" are within the framework of this original centralized State aggression....Marxism lite.

But it is instructive to see your pal, the fake libertarian, carrying the water for statism.

Hell yes Oddscrotum, Medicare is socialism. Let the free market rule.
As you get old it is like buying auto insurance for a car with 300,000 miles on it. Insurance is based on risk. In a free market old people pay thousands a month because they are high risk. In a free market the government does not step in to pay for those without insurance. The government would go broke.
And what about the socialist school system in the US. People without kids pay taxes to pay for schools for children that are not theirs. The hell with that. People with kids pay and figure out schools on their own. And what about fire departments and police? We pay to support through taxes but what if we never have a fire or a problem requiring police. This is all BS, Oddscrotum. I am with you.

A "free market" is where there is no government regulation at all, and companies are free to create abusive monopolies, use extortion, etc.
Insurance is supposed to be just risk pooling, but that can easily be done without anyone extracting over half the money paid in as profits.
Any insurance company that is not nonprofit essentially is an extortion racket.
The whole point of a democratic republic is to organize risk pooling with out the profit motive.
For example, the wealthy are not supposed to get better service from firemen or police than poor people.

Do you really want everything to be on the profit motive, where the children of wealthy are the only ones that get educated or are healthy?

Absolutely not. Most of what I said was tongue in cheek.
My point is so many of those who reject any socialist reforms in our society love it when they collect.