Victory: Wisconsin Teachers Just Voted to Disband Their Teachers Union

[rdean]

Victory: Wisconsin Teachers Just Voted to Disband Their Teachers Union

now lets hope more states fall suit. The major problem with our schools is the UNION teachers who dont want to do their jobs because they have no fear of losing their jobs

Republicans want the worst teachers possible.



Republicans feel that nothing will help this country more than cutting education and getting crappy teachers.

 

[FJO]

Once Habitat for Humanity linked up with unions, they lost my volunteering and 12 years of respect, forever, mind you when the founder was caught in marital infidelity it was already on that road.

The company I worked for, DID give me six weeks of vacation; I never asked for it, and no union ever "got" it for me. I was happy to be a workaholic and if there was no law about mandatory retirement I would still be doing what I loved to do for so many years.

Also, I earned my job qualification by teaching myself. I attended no collage, but I ended up proof-reading reports by graduates, prior to submitting said reports to The Boss, who was blissfully unaware that his hand-picked and privileged protegees needed a self-taught immigrant to correct their spelling errors prior to submitting their reports.

OK, for the other part of your doubts: When volunteers complete a day of working, they sit down and get to know each other and talk - not surprisingly - politics.

That is how I met a couple from Indianapolis who eloped at the age of seventeen and are now the millionaire owners of a dry cleaning and laundry business.

Have you ever done any volunteer work and talk with your fellow volunteers about politics?

Hmmm....I spent 10 years volunteering on a fire dept, 14 years on ESDA, 25 years as a Mason and 14 years on LEPC and never once thought to grill anyone over their political leanings. The only group where we discussed politics is during the 10 years I spent on the County Board as an elected official (the last two years as Vice-Chair).

And again...the company I work for doesn't GIVE me anything. Are you saying you didn't earn your pay and benefits? Where do I sign up where pay and benefits are given without expecting anything in return???

I work and I earn the pay and benefits they pay me. I don't GIVE them anything and they don't GIVE me anything. That's the bottom line.

First, let me praise you for your volunteering efforts at your local fire department. As locals, you probably all knew each other already, so there was no need to "grill each other" about political affiliations.

It is different - at least it was - when you meet people at a Habitat for Humanity site. On the Habitat for Humanity site in Halifax, NS, Canada, I met the some of the same people I met at Homestead, FL and at Chavais, KY at an Appalachian Service Project site. Many of us were from different countries, so we talked about who we were, and what motivated us to be there. When you meet people from other parts of the world, you can't help but talk about politics.

And, yes, the company I worked for for almost forty years GAVE me my generous vacation time without me asking for or demanding it. I also know that I earned it and that is why the company GAVE it to me. I also know that if I had had no hope of such benefit I would have sought employment with another company that would have.

Bottom line is that my vacation time was earned/given without union thugs, but strictly on my own merit and I used some of that time for volunteer work, and - let me repeat - I met no "teacher" all those years who would do the same.

Teachers today are nothing more than slavish indoctrinators of Karl Marx and Barak Obama.

 

[DaGoose]

Once Habitat for Humanity linked up with unions, they lost my volunteering and 12 years of respect, forever, mind you when the founder was caught in marital infidelity it was already on that road.

The company I worked for, DID give me six weeks of vacation; I never asked for it, and no union ever "got" it for me. I was happy to be a workaholic and if there was no law about mandatory retirement I would still be doing what I loved to do for so many years.

Also, I earned my job qualification by teaching myself. I attended no collage, but I ended up proof-reading reports by graduates, prior to submitting said reports to The Boss, who was blissfully unaware that his hand-picked and privileged protegees needed a self-taught immigrant to correct their spelling errors prior to submitting their reports.

OK, for the other part of your doubts: When volunteers complete a day of working, they sit down and get to know each other and talk - not surprisingly - politics.

That is how I met a couple from Indianapolis who eloped at the age of seventeen and are now the millionaire owners of a dry cleaning and laundry business.

Have you ever done any volunteer work and talk with your fellow volunteers about politics?

Hmmm....I spent 10 years volunteering on a fire dept, 14 years on ESDA, 25 years as a Mason and 14 years on LEPC and never once thought to grill anyone over their political leanings. The only group where we discussed politics is during the 10 years I spent on the County Board as an elected official (the last two years as Vice-Chair).

And again...the company I work for doesn't GIVE me anything. Are you saying you didn't earn your pay and benefits? Where do I sign up where pay and benefits are given without expecting anything in return???

I work and I earn the pay and benefits they pay me. I don't GIVE them anything and they don't GIVE me anything. That's the bottom line.

First, let me praise you for your volunteering efforts at your local fire department. As locals, you probably all knew each other already, so there was no need to "grill each other" about political affiliations.

It is different - at least it was - when you meet people at a Habitat for Humanity site. On the Habitat for Humanity site in Halifax, NS, Canada, I met the some of the same people I met at Homestead, FL and at Chavais, KY at an Appalachian Service Project site. Many of us were from different countries, so we talked about who we were, and what motivated us to be there. When you meet people from other parts of the world, you can't help but talk about politics.

And, yes, the company I worked for for almost forty years GAVE me my generous vacation time without me asking for or demanding it. I also know that I earned it and that is why the company GAVE it to me. I also know that if I had had no hope of such benefit I would have sought employment with another company that would have.

Bottom line is that my vacation time was earned/given without union thugs, but strictly on my own merit and I used some of that time for volunteer work, and - let me repeat - I met no "teacher" all those years who would do the same.

Teachers today are nothing more than slavish indoctrinators of Karl Marx and Barak Obama.

As a husband of a school teacher you need to lighten up and educate yourself regarding them. You know so little about them it's scary.

As I previously stated......My wife has taught school for nearly 30 years. She loves teaching, is very good at it and gets along well with most of the parents. (The ones she has a problem with are the ones who take no interest in their childrens education.) For that she gets paid $53k (most other people with a Masters Degrees make MUCH, MUCH more.) But to be fair she gets paid for a 9 month school year. Her reward (besides watching her students excel) is salary, health insurance and a pension of 28k a year with health care for which she has to pay $400 a month out of her pension checks. She also gets no vacation (the summer break doesn't count since she is not paid for that time).

You say you never met a teacher on a project?

Habitat for Humanity engages students and teachers this summer | Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Teachers find inspiration in home work -- Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Teacher Fellows -- Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Parents, Teachers and Youth Leaders -- Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Maybe you weren't looking hard enough or doing it during the school year? Did you make the same observation for business owners? Truck drivers? Airline Pilots? Garbage Collectors? Coal Miners?

 

[hipeter924]

Hmmm....I spent 10 years volunteering on a fire dept, 14 years on ESDA, 25 years as a Mason and 14 years on LEPC and never once thought to grill anyone over their political leanings. The only group where we discussed politics is during the 10 years I spent on the County Board as an elected official (the last two years as Vice-Chair).

And again...the company I work for doesn't GIVE me anything. Are you saying you didn't earn your pay and benefits? Where do I sign up where pay and benefits are given without expecting anything in return???

I work and I earn the pay and benefits they pay me. I don't GIVE them anything and they don't GIVE me anything. That's the bottom line.

First, let me praise you for your volunteering efforts at your local fire department. As locals, you probably all knew each other already, so there was no need to "grill each other" about political affiliations.

It is different - at least it was - when you meet people at a Habitat for Humanity site. On the Habitat for Humanity site in Halifax, NS, Canada, I met the some of the same people I met at Homestead, FL and at Chavais, KY at an Appalachian Service Project site. Many of us were from different countries, so we talked about who we were, and what motivated us to be there. When you meet people from other parts of the world, you can't help but talk about politics.

And, yes, the company I worked for for almost forty years GAVE me my generous vacation time without me asking for or demanding it. I also know that I earned it and that is why the company GAVE it to me. I also know that if I had had no hope of such benefit I would have sought employment with another company that would have.

Bottom line is that my vacation time was earned/given without union thugs, but strictly on my own merit and I used some of that time for volunteer work, and - let me repeat - I met no "teacher" all those years who would do the same.

Teachers today are nothing more than slavish indoctrinators of Karl Marx and Barak Obama.

As a husband of a school teacher you need to lighten up and educate yourself regarding them. You know so little about them it's scary.

As I previously stated......My wife has taught school for nearly 30 years. She loves teaching, is very good at it and gets along well with most of the parents. (The ones she has a problem with are the ones who take no interest in their childrens education.) For that she gets paid $53k (most other people with a Masters Degrees make MUCH, MUCH more.) But to be fair she gets paid for a 9 month school year. Her reward (besides watching her students excel) is salary, health insurance and a pension of 28k a year with health care for which she has to pay $400 a month out of her pension checks. She also gets no vacation (the summer break doesn't count since she is not paid for that time).

You say you never met a teacher on a project?

Habitat for Humanity engages students and teachers this summer | Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Teachers find inspiration in home work -- Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Teacher Fellows -- Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Parents, Teachers and Youth Leaders -- Habitat for Humanity Int'l

Maybe you weren't looking hard enough or doing it during the school year? Did you make the same observation for business owners? Truck drivers? Airline Pilots? Garbage Collectors? Coal Miners?

If the US had decent education laws, and universal healthcare that wouldn't be the case. After 7 years as I posted before you would be on $68,755-$72,645 in NZ after all those years of teaching. Then there are spread out term breaks, so you get December and January off, and roughly 30 days for each term break (so at least around 120 days off). If unions were stronger, and the Democrats had more sway over the austerity sharks it would be a lot better in the US I think.

 

[Trajan]

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

 

[rdean]

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

Do they also want their children taught "creationism"?

 

[DaGoose]

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

Do they also want their children taught "creationism"?

Yup, that's the ones. They also teach that abstinence is the only form of birth control, gays are sub-human people, African Americans are ok as long as they're in their place and women do not belong in the workforce.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually, Public Schools are much more effective shields for predators. In fact, it's a disturbing epidemic in our Public Schools today. And Teacher Unions have been despicable in consistently defending these predators. More & more parents are deciding not to chance it. They're seeking alternatives. Good for them.

Most predators are family members, Sherlock.

You are the gift that keeps on giving.

Many predators are not. So what's your point? What's your answer? Force em all into your failing Public School dungeons?

Public schools are failing? Who knew? But if they are, and if most predators are family members (you cannot get away from this, friend), then what do we do for schooling.

By telling the truth.

Most public schools do fine, and we need to bring the others up be returning controls and standards to the states.

All adults in a home school environment must be back ground checked, and the instructors must pass the state's equivalency that all teachers must pass for certification.

 

[rdean]

Most predators are family members, Sherlock.

You are the gift that keeps on giving.

Many predators are not. So what's your point? What's your answer? Force em all into your failing Public School dungeons?

Public schools are failing? Who knew? But if they are, and if most predators are family members (you cannot get away from this, friend), then what do we do for schooling.

By telling the truth.

Most public schools do fine, and we need to bring the others up be returning controls and standards to the states.

All adults in a home school environment must be back ground checked, and the instructors must pass the state's equivalency that all teachers must pass for certification.

Public schools are failing. They are failing right wingers. But parents overseas send their children here to go to those failing American schools.

 

[paulitician]

Most predators are family members, Sherlock.

You are the gift that keeps on giving.

Many predators are not. So what's your point? What's your answer? Force em all into your failing Public School dungeons?

Public schools are failing? Who knew? But if they are, and if most predators are family members (you cannot get away from this, friend), then what do we do for schooling.

By telling the truth.

Most public schools do fine, and we need to bring the others up be returning controls and standards to the states.

All adults in a home school environment must be back ground checked, and the instructors must pass the state's equivalency that all teachers must pass for certification.

Face it, your 'Predator' argument is just plain lame. If you're gonna be so obsessed with the predator issue, you should be far more concerned with the staggering number of pervert Teachers in our Public Schools today. And with the fact Teacher Unions have protected them so much. It's real simple, if you want to chance it and send your child into the ugly Public School quagmire, than by all means go for it. But don't force others to. More alternatives for Education is a good thing. Let the People decide. That's what America is really all about.

 

[FA_Q2]

It's interesting that the middle class seems to be in decline with unions. Go figure.

I suggest you read the John McPhee book "Looking for a Ship". He describes how the American merchant marine was destroyed by the union. The union made it so unprofitable to run a ship that other than APL (now foreign flagged) and Matson (required to stay American flagged because of military contract) all the others had closed up shop and moved away.

Nowadays you will be hard pressed to find an American Merchant Mariner of any sort.
They had excellent, high paying jobs that are now gone. Or how about the longshoreman? They have been so obnoxious on the west coast that two new ports have been built. One in Canada and one in Mexico so that the shippers will be able to bypass the longshoreman. Yet again good high paying jobs destroyed and shipped out of the country because of ignorance and greedy union bosses.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Looking-Ship-John-McPhee/dp/0374523193]Looking for a Ship: John McPhee: 9780374523190: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

So if I understand you correctly we should lower our standard of living to that of lesser nations in order to "compete"? We should emulate Mexico as how our workers should be compensated for their labor? Please explain what their wages and benefits should be.

What an asinine statement. You know damn well that it is utterly false.

We survive with higher wages because we produce a better and grater product. The point is that when you inflate those wages past a reasonable point, make it difficult to fire those that DO NOT earn those wages, impossible to promote those that are earning more than those wages and encourage the workforce to do as little as possible the advantages go out the window. Couple that with bloated and unreasonable regulations already inflating the cost of doing business here and you have the perfect stick to chase companies and jobs away from the US to other nations that do not have those cost inflating measures in place.

In a nonunion shop, you are NOT going to hear the words ‘that is not my job’ but I work with union members on a daily basis and I hear that multiple times a day. We will have a crew of 6 people standing around doing nothing because a single screw needs to be removed but removing that screw is not ‘their job.’ No one ever points out that they are capable of accomplishing that task. Capability is not the issue – what is written in some bullshit job description seems to be the only thing that matters and god forbid if that screw was not specifically mentioned.

On that same token, I work with people that will never see a promotion that more than deserve it for asinine ‘seniority’ rules that ensure the best person for the job is NOT the one that is promoted.

It is a worthless straw man when people start demanding that the opposition wants to see wages here that match those in China or Thailand. No one wants that BUT there is a clear and strong argument against the ADDITIONAL costs that we add but do not do anything at all to increase worker compensation but rather only stifle productivity. Productivity that is REQUIRED to compensate for the fact that we higher wages.

 

[paulitician]

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

Overplayed their hand. Their time is rapidly passing. It stopped being about the children for them a long time ago. Once it became about greed & political agendas, their decline began. The People have grown tired of their constant whining and attempts to indoctrinate the children on radical Leftist political ideals. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. They actually have it pretty good, compared to many other professions. And the People have caught on. They refuse to be held hostage anymore. It's time for change.

 

[DaGoose]

I suggest you read the John McPhee book "Looking for a Ship". He describes how the American merchant marine was destroyed by the union. The union made it so unprofitable to run a ship that other than APL (now foreign flagged) and Matson (required to stay American flagged because of military contract) all the others had closed up shop and moved away.

Nowadays you will be hard pressed to find an American Merchant Mariner of any sort.
They had excellent, high paying jobs that are now gone. Or how about the longshoreman? They have been so obnoxious on the west coast that two new ports have been built. One in Canada and one in Mexico so that the shippers will be able to bypass the longshoreman. Yet again good high paying jobs destroyed and shipped out of the country because of ignorance and greedy union bosses.

Looking for a Ship: John McPhee: 9780374523190: Amazon.com: Books

So if I understand you correctly we should lower our standard of living to that of lesser nations in order to "compete"? We should emulate Mexico as how our workers should be compensated for their labor? Please explain what their wages and benefits should be.

What an asinine statement. You know damn well that it is utterly false.

We survive with higher wages because we produce a better and grater product. The point is that when you inflate those wages past a reasonable point, make it difficult to fire those that DO NOT earn those wages, impossible to promote those that are earning more than those wages and encourage the workforce to do as little as possible the advantages go out the window. Couple that with bloated and unreasonable regulations already inflating the cost of doing business here and you have the perfect stick to chase companies and jobs away from the US to other nations that do not have those cost inflating measures in place.

(Ok, I'll ask again. What is your definition of fair wages and benefits? I want to see you tell me exactly what the people who make say...kitchen stoves should be paid to compete with Mexican labor. And while you're at it please define "bloated and unreasonable regulations" you are referring to. Worker safety? Worker Comp? Minimum wage?)

In a nonunion shop, you are NOT going to hear the words ‘that is not my job’ but I work with union members on a daily basis and I hear that multiple times a day. We will have a crew of 6 people standing around doing nothing because a single screw needs to be removed but removing that screw is not ‘their job.’ No one ever points out that they are capable of accomplishing that task. Capability is not the issue – what is written in some bullshit job description seems to be the only thing that matters and god forbid if that screw was not specifically mentioned.

(I call bullshit. I've worked in a union shop for more than 30 years and have yet to see anything close to what you describe. When you have a resonable "un-straw man" argument please state it.)

On that same token, I work with people that will never see a promotion that more than deserve it for asinine ‘seniority’ rules that ensure the best person for the job is NOT the one that is promoted.

(I work in a union shop and people have to apply and interview for EVERY promotion. And more often than not it is not the senior person who gets the job.)

It is a worthless straw man when people start demanding that the opposition wants to see wages here that match those in China or Thailand. No one wants that BUT there is a clear and strong argument against the ADDITIONAL costs that we add but do not do anything at all to increase worker compensation but rather only stifle productivity. Productivity that is REQUIRED to compensate for the fact that we higher wages.

Wow. Things like that are easy to say but without specifics how can anyone reply to exactly what point you're trying to make? You're arguments are way too broad.

It's like saying you're against unecessary spending. Hell, EVERYONE is against unecessary spending. Try and put together a coherent argument and get back to me.

 

[DaGoose]

Many predators are not. So what's your point? What's your answer? Force em all into your failing Public School dungeons?

Public schools are failing? Who knew? But if they are, and if most predators are family members (you cannot get away from this, friend), then what do we do for schooling.

By telling the truth.

Most public schools do fine, and we need to bring the others up be returning controls and standards to the states.

All adults in a home school environment must be back ground checked, and the instructors must pass the state's equivalency that all teachers must pass for certification.

Face it, your 'Predator' argument is just plain lame. If you're gonna be so obsessed with the predator issue, you should be far more concerned with the staggering number of pervert Teachers in our Public Schools today. And with the fact Teacher Unions have protected them so much. It's real simple, if you want to chance it and send your child into the ugly Public School quagmire, than by all means go for it. But don't force others to. More alternatives for Education is a good thing. Let the People decide. That's what America is really all about.

(Of course you have numbers to back up your claim of "staggering number of pervert Teachers", right?)

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

Overplayed their hand. Their time is rapidly passing. It stopped being about the children for them a long time ago. Once it became about greed & political agendas, their decline began. The People have grown tired of their constant whining and attempts to indoctrinate the children on radical Leftist political ideals. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. They actually have it pretty good, compared to many other professions. And the People have caught on. They refuse to be held hostage anymore. It's time for change.

I agree. How dare teachers complain about low wages when their average wages (for Bachelors and Masters Degrees) is in the mid 40's. Hmm....I wonder what other professions average with Bachelors and Masters degrees???

Teacher Salary - Average Teacher Salaries | PayScale

 

[paulitician]

Public schools are failing? Who knew? But if they are, and if most predators are family members (you cannot get away from this, friend), then what do we do for schooling.

By telling the truth.

Most public schools do fine, and we need to bring the others up be returning controls and standards to the states.

All adults in a home school environment must be back ground checked, and the instructors must pass the state's equivalency that all teachers must pass for certification.

Face it, your 'Predator' argument is just plain lame. If you're gonna be so obsessed with the predator issue, you should be far more concerned with the staggering number of pervert Teachers in our Public Schools today. And with the fact Teacher Unions have protected them so much. It's real simple, if you want to chance it and send your child into the ugly Public School quagmire, than by all means go for it. But don't force others to. More alternatives for Education is a good thing. Let the People decide. That's what America is really all about.

(Of course you have numbers to back up your claim of "staggering number of pervert Teachers", right?)

theres a district in Colorado that is trying to drop their Teacher Union altogether...the beat goes on.

Overplayed their hand. Their time is rapidly passing. It stopped being about the children for them a long time ago. Once it became about greed & political agendas, their decline began. The People have grown tired of their constant whining and attempts to indoctrinate the children on radical Leftist political ideals. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. They actually have it pretty good, compared to many other professions. And the People have caught on. They refuse to be held hostage anymore. It's time for change.

I agree. How dare teachers complain about low wages when their average wages (for Bachelors and Masters Degrees) is in the mid 40's. Hmm....I wonder what other professions average with Bachelors and Masters degrees???

Teacher Salary - Average Teacher Salaries | PayScale

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

 

[DaGoose]

Face it, your 'Predator' argument is just plain lame. If you're gonna be so obsessed with the predator issue, you should be far more concerned with the staggering number of pervert Teachers in our Public Schools today. And with the fact Teacher Unions have protected them so much. It's real simple, if you want to chance it and send your child into the ugly Public School quagmire, than by all means go for it. But don't force others to. More alternatives for Education is a good thing. Let the People decide. That's what America is really all about.

(Of course you have numbers to back up your claim of "staggering number of pervert Teachers", right?)

Overplayed their hand. Their time is rapidly passing. It stopped being about the children for them a long time ago. Once it became about greed & political agendas, their decline began. The People have grown tired of their constant whining and attempts to indoctrinate the children on radical Leftist political ideals. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. They actually have it pretty good, compared to many other professions. And the People have caught on. They refuse to be held hostage anymore. It's time for change.

I agree. How dare teachers complain about low wages when their average wages (for Bachelors and Masters Degrees) is in the mid 40's. Hmm....I wonder what other professions average with Bachelors and Masters degrees???

Teacher Salary - Average Teacher Salaries | PayScale

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

 

[Gadawg73]

(Of course you have numbers to back up your claim of "staggering number of pervert Teachers", right?)



I agree. How dare teachers complain about low wages when their average wages (for Bachelors and Masters Degrees) is in the mid 40's. Hmm....I wonder what other professions average with Bachelors and Masters degrees???

Teacher Salary - Average Teacher Salaries | PayScale

They enjoy other perks unique to their profession. But the bottom line is, Taxpayers cannot provide them with an endless flow of cash. So if you decide to work for a Tax-Funded institution, you have to accept the conditions. It's not the Private Sector. You're probably not gonna get rich. But you can live quite well.

No one is forced to work in the Public Sector. It's a choice. If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else. That's just the way it is. But for the love of God, quit all the bitchin & whining. The days of Teachers crying wolf are over. The Taxpayers are fed up. It's time for change.

The only people "bitching and whining" are the wingnuts.

My wife doesn't complain about her 53k salary (even though with a Masters Degree she could probably make close to double that).

My wife doesn't complain about her 28k pension, no 401k and the fact that she cannot collect Social Security.

My wife doesn't complain about having to buy classroom supplies with her own money.

My wife doesn't complain about parents who demand that she spend all of her time with THEIR kid. (She's actually grateful for the parents who DO get involved in their kid's education.

My wife doesn't complain about losing her classroom aide (she teaches Special Education) due to school budget cuts even though she now has to help them use the toilet which takes away valuable teaching time from the rest of her students.

My wife's co-workers don't complain about the average low wages (about $15 an hour for degreed professionals).

They don't complain about staying up till 10pm grading papers after teaching all day.

All K-12 Teachers Wages, Hourly Wage Rate | PayScale

About the only thing she and her co-workers complain about is when clueless people call them overpaid leeches with golden parachute benefits.

You're 100% correct about one thing you said. "If Teaching isn't a passion, i would recommend doing something else". She is passionate about what she does. And why would you say that unless you recognize that they are overworked and underpaid?

For all of your "expertise" on the teaching profession I'll bet you have never been to one school board meeting, have never talked to a school board member or even any teacher, right?

Now please don't run away paulitician. Let's keep this dialogue going. Please detail what you base your opinions on....

I would not complain either if I was exempt from social security 15% tax rate on my net every year.
Social security mandates rob citizens. The return is less than zero.
I agree with you about teaching but tell me this. How come every other industrialized nation in the world requires teachers and students to go to school 12 months of the year?
And how are their test scores compared to ours in math and science?
Teachers and students need to be in school 12 months a year.

 

[Gadawg73]

Ask any teacher and they correctly will tell you it is up TO THE PARENTS to make sure their kids are well educated.
NO law fixes bad parents, and we have encouraged with government money, an existing generation of bad parents.
But of course it is the fault of rich people that do not pay their "fair share".

 

[JakeStarkey]

I will still waiting for Paulitician's backup of massive numbers of predator public teachers.

 

[FA_Q2]

So if I understand you correctly we should lower our standard of living to that of lesser nations in order to "compete"? We should emulate Mexico as how our workers should be compensated for their labor? Please explain what their wages and benefits should be.

What an asinine statement. You know damn well that it is utterly false.

We survive with higher wages because we produce a better and grater product. The point is that when you inflate those wages past a reasonable point, make it difficult to fire those that DO NOT earn those wages, impossible to promote those that are earning more than those wages and encourage the workforce to do as little as possible the advantages go out the window. Couple that with bloated and unreasonable regulations already inflating the cost of doing business here and you have the perfect stick to chase companies and jobs away from the US to other nations that do not have those cost inflating measures in place.

In a nonunion shop, you are NOT going to hear the words ‘that is not my job’ but I work with union members on a daily basis and I hear that multiple times a day. We will have a crew of 6 people standing around doing nothing because a single screw needs to be removed but removing that screw is not ‘their job.’ No one ever points out that they are capable of accomplishing that task. Capability is not the issue – what is written in some bullshit job description seems to be the only thing that matters and god forbid if that screw was not specifically mentioned.


On that same token, I work with people that will never see a promotion that more than deserve it for asinine ‘seniority’ rules that ensure the best person for the job is NOT the one that is promoted.


It is a worthless straw man when people start demanding that the opposition wants to see wages here that match those in China or Thailand. No one wants that BUT there is a clear and strong argument against the ADDITIONAL costs that we add but do not do anything at all to increase worker compensation but rather only stifle productivity. Productivity that is REQUIRED to compensate for the fact that we higher wages.

Wow. Things like that are easy to say but without specifics how can anyone reply to exactly what point you're trying to make? You're arguments are way too broad.

It's like saying you're against unecessary spending. Hell, EVERYONE is against unecessary spending. Try and put together a coherent argument and get back to me.

I did put one together. Just because you want to ignore reality and make worthless accusations like wanting people here to earn a slave wage does not negate that fact. You try and come of from the high road but don’t forget that it was YOU that started making asinine claims about what others ‘want.’

(Ok, I'll ask again. What is your definition of fair wages and benefits? I want to see you tell me exactly what the people who make say...kitchen stoves should be paid to compete with Mexican labor. And while you're at it please define "bloated and unreasonable regulations" you are referring to. Worker safety? Worker Comp? Minimum wage?)

I cant because no one can. I just got dine explaining the basics of that to you but you are WAY to fixated on the idea that a wage should be something that is somehow defined. Its not. Labor being a commodity, what defines a proper wage is that which the market for that labor can bear. IT is based on the availability and demand. There is a reason that fast food workers make so little. The labor is WIDELY available. Anyone can do the job with almost zero training. In fact, the only real training that is required is because of bloated government regulations and corporate bureaucracy that comes with larger institutions. The major supplied is extremely plentiful. Couple that with the fact that there is very little demand for that labor (if prices increase most will simply go to a decent restaurant instead) the cost of that labor is very small. Changing that cost by the way is irrelevant because the value stays the same.

In the end, increasing those costs does nothing more than eliminate jobs (as already outlined in the example given) or removes the industry entirely from the US.

Also, if you are unable to see the rampant and insane government regulatory measures that are all around us then you are simply blind. You want specifics? I can offer TONS. Why don’t we start with the daycare that I own? Rather than simply ensuring that the environment is safe (something that the government does not even do) they instead regulate ridiculous things.
How you wipe a child’s ass is regulated (yes there is an actual regulation on wiping an ass)
The type of toys that you have. You are required a certain number of nesting, stacking puzzle and peg toys to name a few. This is asinine to the extreme considering that the amount that you have or activities that you do is completely overlooked to fill a check box on an inspection sheet. IOW, you could be completely lacking a proper environment BUT as long as you fill the check boxes, you are fine.
How the children are saved lunch (they are required to spoon out the portion themselves and god forbid that they don’t actually want it because you can get written up for that)
Dangerous practices that are required like washing FOOD WITH A BLEACH SOLUTION. Yes, we were required to put bleach on vegetables.
The temperature that comes out of the faucet is regulated as well as though that were a major safety concern. This gets particularly harry because the temps are essentially impossible to come up with as the bathroom has a max and the kitchen has a min.
That’s just a few but let’s move on to the aerospace maintenance industry where:
The type of carpet that is installed is regulated. Really, what safety measure does CARPETING cover?
The stands that we use are required to have open and closing doors. The previous requirement of railings apparently was not sufficient. This one is costing the government hundreds of millions right now.
Permit paperwork for entry into confined spaces takes up more time than many of the actual jobs take up meaning that a three man crew (required by other regulations for such a task) waits longer to fill out paperwork than actual productive time. Add to that the fact that ‘confined space is so ill defined that a three man crew is required to change something that you are not even entering such a space and you have a massive waste of resources.
Requirements for fall protection gear when enclosed in a stand that has full safety railing and zero chance for falling. Really asinine because it actually CREATES a hazard as you are dealing with lines all over the damn place that don’t need to be there.
More fall protection required when working in areas that do not have any reasonable falling hazard since they are so large but because they are 30 feet off the ground it is required anyway.
Have you ever dealt with a LOTO program? Any industrial area (at least in maintenance) requires this program. That means that you need to set up an entire training program, train your employees, provide the equipment and the proper stations/markings for this even if there is ZERO need for LOTO. In the several places that I have had to deal with the program, I have yet to see a single need for it. It was designed for a completely different environment but, because regulations are usually poorly written, we have had to maintain one.
I could go on but let’s go into some others. Construction is rather fun:
There are requirements for the number and placement of screws in steel track and stud framing. Asinine because those screws do NOTHING structurally. They exist solely to keep the stud in –place as you are placing the drywall in place as THAT is what provides the integrity (along with joint compound) for the basic walls.
Speaking of that, because you are regulated for the screws in your studs, you need a screw inspection that can hold entire projects in place until the inspector comes out and gives you the stamp.
Same thing goes for the drywall. There is a required screw inspection for that as well. Even in firewalls that are sheetrocked twice there are screw inspections required for the first layer. That is asinine considering the screws are going in that layer from the second. Because it is a box on an inspection list though, it needs to be accomplished.
Everything from the height of plugs and switches to the number of screws is regulated. 90 percent of that has NOTHING to do with safety or structural integrity.

There are more. Hundreds of thousands more but why bother. The asinine regulations that need to be eliminated are EVERYWHERE and if you choose not to see them then you are never going to see them. The government does not need to be getting involved in end product or its quality. The only place it belongs in is health and safety. Most regs have nothing but the most tenuous connection there though.

(I call bullshit. I've worked in a union shop for more than 30 years and have yet to see anything close to what you describe. When you have a resonable "un-straw man" argument please state it.)

It was a reasonable statement. I also never stated that all unions were destructive nor did I state that they all needed to be removed. Unions go out as they become disruptive and bring down an industry. Just because YOUR union shop does not operate like that does not mean that other union shops are not in that boat. I would guess that you do not operate in a government union shop. That would explain a lot, particularly considering that this thread is on a government union. There are stark differences in the two.

I would also venture a guess that your union is not one of the ones that captures an entire industry. That is another stark difference in many unions that are constructive vs. destructive.

(I work in a union shop and people have to apply and interview for EVERY promotion. And more often than not it is not the senior person who gets the job.)

Again, meaningless. Discount those parts that deal with union shops I have personally worked with if you don’t want to deal with those problems but that does nothing to address the meat of my statements – mainly in the first portion. The following statements were simply specific things that cause unions to be destructive. You asked for specifics in regulatory instances and I have now given some. Those were simply the same for unions. Just because some unions have practices that are destructive does not mean they all do in the same manner that not all regulations are not destructive.